₦airaland Forum

Image123, you just don't get it.

You said, "Malachi 3v9 ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have ROBBED me, EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION."

EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION WAS ROBBED.  You have robbed me, even this whole nation.  That doesn't mean the whole nation robbed God, it means the whole nation was robbed.  How was the whole nation robbed?  By the closing of the Temple because the priests had taken the Levites food from the tithe.

Malachi says take all the tithes to the storehouse.  ONLY THE PRIESTS were allowed to take the tithes to the storehouse.  NOT the people.  How could Malachi be telling the PEOPLE to take the tithes to the storehouse?

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV)
1For the LAW having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Image123 said, "You've lied again gary. Lying is of the devil, the Father of lies/liars. You can repent."

I'm not the liar, Image123, NOR am I the ignorant one here.

D-optimist said, "No church will ask you to write your name and the salary you earn so as to monitor how you pay tithe."

My research shows that tithing, the way it is taught in the churches today, started in the United States in the second half of the 1800s.

MANY churches in the United State are now REQUIRING members to furnish a copy of their government form W-2 which the employer furnishes at the end of the year that shows your yearly wages. Some require this of all members. Some require it only if you hold any position in the church. This is used to verify whether or not you have paid the church the full ten percent.

Just wait until that spreads to your country.

OK, Image123, I will answer your questions.  Because of the time differences, I am just getting up and I see a lot has been written since yesterday.

You said, referring to Malachi, "Verse 5 addresses not just priests, but also sorcerers, adulterers and so on."

Yes, but as I said, the word YOU in that verse is being spoken to the priests.

You referred to "sons of Jacob."  Weren't the priests sons of Jacob?  The Word doesn't say ALL sons of Jacob.

The priests had ROBBED God.  The Word doesn't say anyone WITHHELD paying or didn't pay the Tithe.  How do you rob someone?  BY STEALING from them, and the priests STOLE the Levites portion of the tithe at the Temple per Nehemiah 13.

You bring up Nehemiah 13v12 but don't seem to understand what is going on here.  Verse 10 shows the ROBBING GOD of the tithe.  The Levites had taken the portion of the tithe THEY NEEDED FOR THEMSELVES TO LIVE ON and the priests stole it.  When the people heard this, they took brought the tithe to the Temple for the Levites.  This was NOT the normal way of paying the tithe.  The tithe was normally taken to the Levites to go INTO THEIR CITIES, where they lived.

e36991 - Will answer your questions:

You asked, "Which came first, tithing or the Levitical priesthood?"

Numbers 18 instigated both the Levitical priesthood and The Lord's Tithe.

Abraham did not pay The Lord's Tithe, so that giving of a tenth is not comparable to The Lord's Tithe. God said His tithe was on crops and animals, NOT war spoils.

You asked, "Where does it categorically say Aaron and his sons were exempted then.
Confused? You wish . . . Levites and priests tithed from their share"

Since the Israelite farms took the tithe to the Levites, and the Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests, and nowhere does it say the priests tithed, to say that the Levites and the priests were the same is to say the Levites gave a tenth of the tenth to themselves. Come on now. Let's use some common sense.

I will say again, the priests did not tithe. The priests gave a PORTION, not a tithe, to The Lord as a heave offering. Yes, YOU are confused.

You asked, "Is there likely a shift concerning the paradigm or principle of tithing?"

Church leaders have invented a new principle of tithing - that of giving back to God a tenth of what you earn. That was NOT what God commanded.

You said, "You think its all about measly 10% eh. Cha!"

In the New Testament, it is all about 100% of ourselves. Being Spirit Led, I, myself, find myself giving FAR MORE than a measly 10%. I believe that God is more concerned with how much I keep for myself. He wants me to use the blessings He has bestowed upon me to bless others.

Nehemiah 10:37-38 (KJV)
37And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
38And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

The firstfruits went to the Temple for the [Levitical] priests. The tithe was taken to the Levites in all their cities. The [Levitical] priests were WITH the Levites when the Levites (not the priests) took the tithes. Then the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the [Levitical] priests. NO WHERE DOES IT SHOW THE PRIESTS TITHING.

The Levites were the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc. - the servants of the priests.

Are you aware that the priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis? NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites.

You said, "Now because Aaron and his family were also Levites, they too would have been expected to tithe. Aint that right?"

No, that ain't right. The Levitical priests did NOT receive the tithe. The rest of the Levites received the tithe, and they gave a tenth of the tenth to the Levitical priests. The Levitical priests did NOT tithe.

You are VERY confused.

Image123 - you really show a lack of knowledge on this topic.

e36991 said, "You know and I know that the priests tithed from the tithes"

@e36991, it just might help if you opened your Bible and read the scriptures.

HINT:  Read Numbers 18:23.

The farmers took the tithe to The Levites.
The Levites gave a tenth of the tenth to the priests.
The priests DID NOT TITHE.  They used A PORTION of the tenth of the tithe for a heave offering.

THE PRIEST DID NOT TITHE.  It was the Levites who tithed from the tithe TO THE PRIESTS.

You also need to look at:
Hebrews 7:14 (KJV)
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:5,12,18 make it perfectly clear that the Levitical priesthood, which included the Lord's Tithe, ended at Calvary. In fact, verse 18 tells us that Numbers 18, regarding the priesthood and ALL its laws, including tithing, was DISANNULLED.

Since WE are now the royal priesthood, and the priests DID NOT TITHE, how are we supposed to tithe? THE PRIESTS DID NOT TITHE.

Actually, the whole book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. 

Starting in chapter 1, by the time you get to verse 6 you see it is THE PRIESTS who are being addressed.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and
the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3
continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to
judgment…, "  In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8.

THE PRIESTS were robbing God, AND NOW they rob the children of God.  HOW did they rob God of the tithe?  No one actually took their tithe to God as God directed them to take His tithe to the Levites.  To withhold the tithe from the Levites, or to steal the tithe from the Levites was considered robbing God.  Since God NEVER changed His command to take His tithe to the Levites, anyone who takes His tithe to other than a Levite is robbing God.

To say God wants you to take His tithe to the church is a flat out LIE and cannot be substantiated by God's Word.  STOP TELLING LIES!  Those who teach lies are liars.

Since the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities, NOT TO THE TEMPLE, and the Levites then gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests, it is that tenth of the tithe that went to the storehouse, NOT the whole tithe from the Israelite farmers.

The PRIESTS robbed God of the offerings.  See Malachi 1.

The PRIESTS robbed God of the tithe.  See Nehemiah 13.

Malachi 3:5 (NIV)
“So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

Those who teach tithing are defrauding laborers of their wages and will be judged accordingly.

Those who GIVE FROM THE HEART, CHEERFULLY, will be blessed accordingly.

viaro,

You don't listen, and you misquote.  I NEVER said THE definition of tithe is tax.  I said ONE definition is tax.

I have given here the message God has given me to preach.  I am only the messenger.  God has told me those who reject the message are not rejecting me, they are rejecting Him.  God has told me it is His fight, not mine.  But I have told God that His Son died for me on the cross.  The least I can do is fight for Him.  But I know by fighting, sometimes I can get in God's way.

I did not ask God if I could be a messenger.  God told me, through The Holy Spirit, what He wanted me to "TELL THE PEOPLE."  I am doing as God has commanded.

Once I have given the message God has ordained me to give, I have done my part.  I know that God has used me to plant a seed on this blog and that my comments that came from His Spirit has served my purpose here.  Therefore, I am now backing out of this blog for a time.

I love every single one of you, regardless of your views.  You are all by brothers and sisters.  MAY GOD BLESS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU.

Gary Arnold
Clovis, California USA
www.BibleEd.org

debosky,

When you give to your local church, how much of every dollar goes to help the poor or needy?

When you give to a church, in most cases what you give goes for the COMFORT of the church members - a building to keep you out of the weather, a PA system so you can hear better, seating, heating, cooling, paper supplies, salaries, building upkeep and maintenance, utilities, etc. etc.  Most ALL of what you give is for MAN'S COMFORTS and for the salary of a pastor.

In most cases, when you give to the local church, you are giving little or nothing to the poor.

In MY OWN OPINION, when you give to the local church, you are giving to man, but also giving to promote God's Word.

Jesus did say when you give to the poor/needy you ARE giving to Him.

viaro said, "When you argue against tithe, are you not recommending that people should not tithe? "

CORRECT. I refrain from using the word tithe when I mean give. I say what I mean. I recommend they pray and be led by The Spirit. IF that results in 10%, fine. But I don't recommend ANY percentage. I DO recommend giving, FROM THE HEART, and ACCORDING TO ONE'S MEANS.

viaro - even the definition YOU furnished shows it doesn't have to be a tenth:

3. a. A tenth part. b. A very small part.

It can be a very small part.

And the Webster's I used also has:

a tenth part or any indefinitely small part of anything.

ANY INDEFINITELY SMALL PART OF ANYTHING.

So modern-day dictionaries do NOT limit a tithe to a tenth.

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary copyright 1999, CD rom edition, using definition of TITHE.

American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, copyright 1994.

I also have my mother's dictionary she got when she graduated from college:

MacMillan's Modern Dictionary - 1938 edition: Tithe - tenth part, or any small part, of
produce, profits, or the like paid as a tax or as a voluntary contribution, esp. for religion
or charitable use.

To tell someone God put it in YOUR heart to give 10% is fine, but to recommend that they do the same is telling them they might want to do what God put in YOUR heart.

WHY recommend anything? It should come from THEIR heart, NOT your recommendation. Recommending how much they should give is doesn't even make since if it is to come from THEIR heart. Why not recommend praying instead? Just maybe God will put in their heart to give 20%.

viaro said, "Current definitions of tithe is not tax - that is the point."

CURRENT DEFINITION FROM WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:
any tax, levy, or the like, esp. of one-tenth

CURRENT DEFINITION FROM THE AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY:
A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax,

Do you NOW see the word TAX from both dictionaries?  The current definition of tithe IS tax.  To be more accurate, ONE current definition IS tax.

I have shown you these definitions twice now.  YOU furnish a definition from 1913 - that, my friend, is NOT a current dictionary.

As I had said, YOU are STILL confused, and STILL have it wrong.

viaro is STILL confused!!!!!

I didn't give the tax definition of tithe until AFTER your comment that tithe was not a tax.

I show you, by current definitions, that tithe can, in fact, be a tax.

NOW do you have it, or do I need to say VIARO IS STILL CONFUSED!!!!!!!!

viaro said, "the difference is that I don't think it either sides (between anti-tithing or pro-tithing arguments) should be made a Law for Christians. Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."

Most protestant pastors don't teach "Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."  THAT is the problem, Bro.  Pastors teach it wrong, and more people need to stand up to their pastor and correct him.  It's the teaching that tithing is a requirement in the NT that is so disturbing.  THAT, my friend, is why we need to STOP using the word tithing for giving.  IF pastors taught that tithing was voluntary, not required, and by not tithing you were not robbing God, I wouldn't have any problem with this whole topic.

By using the word tithing when you are giving, you now become part of the problem.

viaro is STILL confused!

NONE of my example said that tithe was a tax.  All you have to do is substitute the word TENTH in the examples to see what they say, NOT the word tax.

WORDS SHOULD BE CHOSEN CAREFULLY.

viaro is STILL confused but won't admit it!

Here is even more to show that VIARO is now confused!

Vario said, and I quote:  "Gary, a tithe is NOT a tax - unless you are going to start arguing that God taxed His people whne He spoke about tithes in the Law."

No, I am not arguing that God taxed His people when He spoke of tithes in the law.  I am not talking about the law at all - just like those who say we are not under the law.  

From Webster's Dictionary.

Another definition of tithe:
any tax, levy, or the like, esp. of one-tenth

From the American Heritage dictionary - one definition of tithe:
A tax or an assessment of one tenth

You see, viaro, many people use a modern-day dictionary when reading their Bible.  Not everyone has Hebrew and Greek dictionaries.

I think YOU have proven my point that choice of words used IS very important.

viaro,

One definition of tithe from Webster's Dictionary:
a tenth part or any indefinitely small part of anything

We are not dealing with the Biblical tithe in my examples which show how confusing my comments would be.

Although the following would be correct, I believe people would be confused if I said:

The New Health Care law in the US adds a tithe to the cost of tanning services.

Employers must withhold a tithe more in state income taxes.

The tax change means people who would have paid a tithe, will now have to pay a double tithe.

Jun 2, 2010 ,  Business tax receipts down a tithe.

The Recovery Act also provided a tax credit for plug-in electric drive conversion kits. The credit is equal to a tithe of the cost of converting a vehicle to a qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle and placed in service after Feb. 17, 2009.

Get the point?  Better to use a word that causes less confusion or misunderstanding.

You people are missing THE WHOLE POINT.

I have NO problem with anyone giving a tenth of their income to the church or anywhere else.  I have NO problem with anyone who wishes to use Abraham's so-called example and give a tenth of whatever you wish to the church or anywhere else.

I DO have a problem with calling that giving as PAYING tithe, or tithing.  Why not call it was it is - giving a tenth of your income.  It is NOT tithing, Biblically speaking.  WHY must you CONFUSE THE ISSUES by calling your giving a tithe?

Most church goers have not studied these issues and are being misled when people call giving, tithing.  Since we go to church to learn The Word, why not try to be accurate in our choice of words?  The English language is bad enough without intentional confusion be added.

Most church goers I have known equate tithing with The Lord's Tithe.

WORDS ARE POWERFUL.  We should choose the best word to convey our message to lessen confusion.

Isn't there already enough confusion in this area of The Word?

viaro said, "You cannot argue away what he gave as if Scripture does not clearly declare what it was - it calls it "tithes" in both the OT and NT!"

NO IT DOES NOT.  The KJV calls it a tithe in Genesis and a TENTH in Hebrews.  Yet in the same chapter of Hebrews, when referring to Levi, the KJV uses the word tithe.  WHY does the KJV distinguish between Abraham's TENTH and Levi's TITHE?  And WHY does almost every other version of the Holy Bible use the word TENTH in Genesis, and also distinguish between Abraham's TENTH and Levi's TITHE in Hebrews 7?  The scriptures DO make a distinction between the two.  The Hebrew word translated in Hebrews 7 for Abraham's tenth is NOT the same as the Hebrew word translated in Hebrews 7 for Levi's tithe.  Again, the scriptures make a distinction between tenth and tithe.

Once God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, we have a NEW definition for "The Lord's Tithe."  The Lord's "tithe" is not just a mathematical term.

Some of you criticise me for the legalism arguments, yet you don't seem to have the ability to see a "principle."

YOU want to take Abraham's tenth of war spoils and use it as a principle of giving ten percent.  You ignore what Biblical historians say that it was custom.

IF there is any principle, it would be that Abraham GAVE to a priesthood.  NOT the percentage.  

Too many use the definition of tithe from the current, modern-day dictionary.  In Abraham's day, the word tithe meant a tenth and had nothing to do with God, priesthoods, giving, paying, etc.  It was a mathematical term.

Abraham did NOT tithe as the word tithe is used today.  He gave a tenth of certain items, NOT even from his regular income.

The ONLY principle here (if there even is one) is that he gave to a priesthood - NOT the percentage or amount, and not what he gave.  OR, some could even say the principle is that Abraham kept nothing for himself.

You are dreaming when you say the principle is giving ten percent ESPECIALLY since the later mosaic law used a much smaller amount of war spoils to be given to the Levites.

My how tithers add their OWN story to the Bible.

Just WHERE does the Word say that God accepted Abraham's tithe?

My Bible says the tithe was given to Melchizedek.  It says NOTHING about God accepting Abraham's tithe.

Amazing how different our Bibles seem to be.

There was no law given in The Word that required Abraham to tithe.  However, Biblical historians agree that it was CUSTOM during the days of Abraham to give a tenth of the war spoils.

Doesn't really matter.  There is NO example where Abraham tithed on his income, and only ONE example of giving a tenth of war spoils.  When the mosaic law included a "tax" or war spoils to be given to the Levites, it was no where near a tenth.

IF you follow Abraham's example as given in The Word, you will give a tenth of war spoils to a King and keep nothing for yourself.

IF you follow Jacob's example as given in The Word, you will make a vow to God, telling God what He must do first, and then you will give a tenth of all He gives to you, and then NOT follow through with your promise since we have no information to show that Jacob ever, in fact, gave a tenth.

IF you follow the example of Jesus given in The Word, you won't tithe as there is NO example in The Word showing Jesus tithing.

The scribes and pharisees, as teachers of the law, did not tithe on any income they received as a scribe or pharisee.  IF they also farmed, they would have tithed on crops and animals.

The scribes and pharisees apparently tithed on their herb gardens, taking the law to the extreme.  This would not have been wrong since it was from the increase of the seed.  But they did NOT tithe from their profession as teachers of the law.