₦airaland Forum

Okay, I'm one of those in the supporter's club. Usually, I carry nor sponsor's adverts - whether here in the UK, or at home in naija.

I agree with you that both sides have used some very strong language (out of vexation, perhaps). I've also learnt beyong my very small understanding of Islam and Christianity - thanks to them both!

What I can't understand though. is the fact that a Muslim refers to his Muslim authors as (*****)!! I can't get it, and it still amazes me up until now. The hypocrisy and deceptive dribbling - those I am quite used to. But denouncing one's own fellow believers is perhaps a new one that will take time before I digest it (if at all)!!

mukina2:
no disrespect i just want to know

I'll be honest with you - I really don't know!

Do I want to know?? Oh, you bet! At least, this much we know - there'll be no faceless person on Judgement day!

The question is not about whether Jesus or Muhammad looked precisely like anybody. he himself said in Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 55, Num. 607 that he resembled Abraham more than any person! Now you tell me - how were his companions supposed to know what Abraham looked like??

The core issue here is not about portraying Jesus or Muhammad in artistic expressions. Go read the Hadiths and you'll see for yourself that the concern expressed there was one related to the fear of being severely punished in HELL just because somebody makes or have pictures!

So, with that king of mentality, what hope does a professional photographer have in reading such hadiths that qualify him for hell? he should just throw away his professional career, not so?? Not to even mention that most Muslims (perhaps including you) have actually contravened those commands and posed for photo-shots!!

The Islamic injucntion is not as narrow as most moderate Muslims today are trying so hard to present before us. In its broad context, it involves the making or possession of ANY type of pictures - whether they're of human beings or animals!! Nobody said the pictures should be worshipped; but to enforce a ban on ALL pictures within the Islamic context is what is in question here.

The world is an exciting place with Muslims, actually.

It all depends on what specific cut of Islam any Muslim today pursues: Muhammad's Islam, or the contemporary Liberal Islam.

Even within the various interpretations of Christianity, one might argue that the world would be a better place without Christians (free speech, again!). And the list can go on endlessly with atheism, free thinkers, paganism, and all sorts.

Let's look at a few versions of what I mean:

Version 1.

I think the world is an exciting place with me as a Christian. I carry machine guns and "take down" any person who disagrees with me - and it doesn't even matter what 'god' you believe in; or whether or not you believe in 'god' at all. Just express your free speech that you dare to disagree with me, and kaput! you're history!! https://bestsmileys.com/shooting1/23.gif

You can modify version 1 to include those within our ranks who are ready to smoke you if you don't attend our church after receiving healing from our MOG; or those others who refer to all of you nice Christians as children of "babylon" if you're worshipping on Sunday!!
----------------------

Version 2.

I'm nice going with everybody. They call me the mover of "political correctness"; and I don't mind compromising with liars and robbers, just so long as my selfish image and desires are not hurt. The only time I feel hurt is when I'm told the hard truth in a loving manner - and then you'll see my face red. https://bestsmileys.com/angry2/9.gif

No need modifying or upgrading this one, because we plenty and we dey troll the net like virus everywhere!
----------------------

Version 3.

I'm a fool for Jesus and belong to those who hold fastidiously to the Bible in a literal way. The only difference between our group and those who are called LITERALISTS is that we don't use our intelligence, while everyone else is using their brains. Some of us have been scotched and burnt in 'cults'; but thank God we've come out from them and now know far better!

----------------------

Version 4.

I'm one of those few Christians who believes he's not perfect; failed in the past, but thankful to find forgiveness, refreshment and new vigour in the grace of God through Jesus Christ. We're also thankful to receive correction; and you'll find us among many evangelical groups who go beyond the mere talk of their faith into proving it in reaching out to others. We're not perfect in any way; and indeed, some among us are known to have had very disgraceful pasts. All the same, we don't look at what's behind; but rather strive for what's in front.

Does anyone know where I'm coming from?


Okay, bottomline is that if we believe in free speech, let's also respect the right of everyone to live and be among us - whether they're atheists, pagans, muslims, etc. We detest the extremism that threatens everyone's life - and indeed, the world would be a better place without these threats!

Enjoy.

fadal:
^{because's not cool we don't know how he looks like,when you draw something with your hand and started to take that drawing as a your prophet face's not cool} amin that sum juju stuff.

Lol, abeg no make me laff!!

What's the "juju stuff" about taking pictures?? The point has been made that as long as you don't worship such pictures, there's no hell to be dreaded just because Muhammad said so. It is only "juju" to over-react for a cartoon; whereas the 'Muslim love for Jesus' has been standing limp in the face of cartoons about Him.

Man, just free yourself from such unfounded dread. There are many things Muhammad SAW and heard that he didn't like - they were his personal dread. People's personal phobias do not have to be your own!!

Take pictures, keep them, share them, preserve your cherished moments and make them evergreen memories - and your progeny will bless you long after your time!! Na me Gwaine send you!    _{imagine your cousins or grandchildren having no clue what you look like - in the 21st century!}

Enjoy! 

Now as to the descriptions of the physical traits of the 'Jesus' spoken of in Islam, why are Muslims here pretending that they have no idea whatsoever about the fact that it was Muhammad who projected the image of a 'white/red' Jesus? See the following hadiths:

Of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad --


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven,
I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one
of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus who was of average height with
red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble prophet Abraham
more than any of his offspring does. . . //
>>>Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 55, Num. 607.


Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, "On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven,
I saw Moses who was a tall brown curly-haired man as if he was one of the men of
Shan'awa tribe, and I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion
inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair. . .//
>>>Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 54, Num. 462.


Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, "One should not say that I am better than Jonah
(i.e. Yunus) bin Matta." So, he mentioned his father Matta. The Prophet mentioned the
night of his Ascension and said, "The prophet Moses was brown, a tall person as if from
the people of the tribe of Shanu'a. Jesus was a curly-haired man of moderate height."
He also mentioned Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and Ad-Dajjal.
>>>Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 55, Num. 608.


Muhammad was a white man, no?

Narrated Anas bin Malik: While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque,
a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque,
tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?"
At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm.
We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm."
The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
>>>Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk 3, Num. 63.


I wonder why you guys will continue to pretend about issues that have straight answers. So, there you have it. It was Muhammad who described Jesus as a man with a complexion of white and red colours (whatever that means) - and today, Muslims shrug their shoulders in pretence that no descriptions exists about Him in their own books. The joke that they now turn round to "ask" - One Question For All Christians! This joke is a wonder on its own!

thesilent1:
Its just embarrasing to see replies that start off with "white people, "

Okay, we have established that Muslims And Chrsistians do NOT hate pictures! nice.

so, apart from clogging up the web, this "discussion" has no objective end, and will NEVER be a unification tool.

but please feel free to go right ahead with this discussion. when you have analysed and dissected the face and shape of both figures, please let me know what waist size JC was as I am sure he was 33" (get it! LOL)

@thesilent1,

You're beginning to add some silly notes of your own in the discussion, not to mention your caricature of the "waist size" and reducing Him to an abbrevation.

Even if the thread was started with no rational objectives, at least it helped to dislodge the unfounded notion that possessing or making pictures of ANY human being or animals in Islam merits the severest punishment in hell. It is not just a matter of who or what Jesus or Muhammad looked like. Rather, it is now a matter of the picture of ANY person at all!

The idea of 'picture-takes-you-to-hell' was merely one man's unfounded fear; and people should simply set themselves free from that man's personal dread.

And about that so-called "unification tool", did you for one moment imagine that Islam was designed to seek unification in any way? How many throats have been slit to pursue that purpose?

@nossycheek,

I have carefully followed the discussions you and stimulus (as well several others) have tried to hold with babs787. Your inputs are quite appreciated, whether or not he decides to be reasonable from henceforth. The fact remains that such Muslim apologists are predictably dribblers; and I'm just waiting to serve him his own nightmares when he comes up once more to post his nightschool scholarship.

If people like him will no longer reason because everything to them must be typically interpreted the Islamic way, then it is high time they know that such gimcrack rascality no longer holds any substance, especially with people like me. I may as well turn out to be his worst nightmare!  https://bestsmileys.com/aliens/16.gif
------------------------

Relax, babs787; this is no threat at all. My concern here is simple: discuss if you have to; but your games and deliberate calumny of Christianity will no longer be tolerated! Try pushing your luck, and no task force from any Sharia State will be able to rescue your remains!

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:
I notice you have not been able to disprove all I have said so far using the bible. I honestly wish you'd at least try.

Quite a number of your assumptions have been laid to rest using the Bible; so this oft-repeated chant is a bit worn out now.

Bobbyaf:
All of you JWs sound the same, programmed! None of you dare step out the box and see the bible for what it is.

It's just about the same thing with so many people - even within SDA people are programmed; so it's no big deal.

The funny thing is that it's easier for people to allege that others are "programmed", this or that; especially when doing so from within the matrix of any particular denomination of one's choice.

The JWs have unsound doctrines on many issues; but have we carefully looked into those that are most cherished within our own denominations?

Now again, let's review some very important issues about this kibosh of no pictures in Islam. Reminder:

               Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 54, Num. 448:

               Narrated Abu Talha: I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy)
               do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature
               (a human being or an animal)."


Since Islam forbids the pictures of both human beings and animals

1. What would you do if you were required to submit passport photos in applications for employment, school, etc??

2. What would you do where you're required to submit passport photos of yourself for visa and travelling passport applications?

3. How would the Islamic world have ever been able to cope in media advancements such as reporting news in newspapers, journals and magazines? (I'm sure Muhammad didn't foresee this at all!)

4. How would the media houses in the islamic world have handled TV programs? Would they have been showing trees and grasses and not even the faces of newscasters and VIPs interviewed on their media coverage? (again, Muhammad didn't think of this at all)

5. How would the Islamic world have been able to cope with advances made in visual technology - videos, cameras, etc?

6. What about combating crime - will policemen who use pictures in their investigative work be severely punished as well (especially when they uncover the hideous faces of terrorists on most-wanted lists)??


You see, this idea that Allah will punish who make pictures (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, Num. 428) is simply a waste of space, intellect, and one's future. There's no such thing as ending up in hell for having, making, or posting your pictures on MySpace, Flickr, etc.

YOU WON'T BE PUNISHED IN HELL BY NOBODY FOR HAVING PICTURES _{(as long as you don't worship them)} - OR EVEN VIEWING THEM!! _{(as long as they're not porn!)}

Free yourselves from the personal fear of one man who didn't like pictures: you won't go to hell for having pictures!! If them ask you who deliver you from this misplaced fear, tell them say na me send you!! https://bestsmileys.com/scary/3.gif

fadal:
muslim don't hate pictures

"Muslims don't hate pictures" - which is the very reason why you should set yourselves free from the threeat of going to hell because you possess them! Take loads of them, preserve your childhood memories; or if you're grown past that - then preserve the blessed memories of the first crops of beards you had, like me!!

fadal:
they only hate when someone goes on an draw a picture of mohamed,

What's wrong with that?? Haven't people tried to make artistic depictions of the other prophets? Why should Muhammad's case tear the world asunder??

fadal:
we don't know the real face of mohamed or how he looks like we just know that his our prophet.

https://bestsmileys.com/talking/1.gif Yada-yada!!

The truth is that there were artists back in Muhammad's day that would easily have captured Muhammad's portrait for us; but there can't be any such pictures of him because he threatened everyone with the "severest punishment" in hell!!

Enjoy your pictures today - you won't end up in any hell for simply possessing them!

@YOUNGDICE$,

Right, back now.

The reason why I'm pointing out these upshots is because most of us know that Islam bares some deep-seated concerns about Muslims having pictures - whether pictures taken or drawn about human beings or animals. There is a staggering collection of verses in the hadiths that reveal this; and the following are a selection that stand precisely to the point:


Narrated Said bin Abu Al-Hasan: While I was with Ibn 'Abbas a man came and said, "O father of 'Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn 'Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn 'Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, Num. 428)


Narrated 'Aisha: I stuffed for the Prophet a pillow decorated with pictures (of animals) which looked like a Namruqa (i.e. a small cushion). He came and stood among the people with excitement apparent on his face. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is wrong?" He said, "What is this pillow?" I said, "I have prepared this pillow for you, so that you may recline on it." He said, "Don't you know that angels do not enter a house wherein there are pictures; and whoever makes a picture will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked to give life to (what he has created)?" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 54, Num. 447)


Narrated Abu Talha: I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 54, Num. 448)


Narrated Ibn Abbas: Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture" He meant the images of creatures that have souls. (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Num. 338)


Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, "Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 73, Num. 130)


Narrated Anas: Aisha had a thick curtain (having pictures on it) and she screened the side of her i house with it. The Prophet said to her, "Remove it from my sight, for its pictures are still coming to my mind in my prayers." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Book 72, Num. 842)



After going through the texts about pictures, I wonder what all the fuss was about that made Muhammad hate pictures that much? Do you care to offer explanations than the threats already made in those texts?

For those who proclaim themselves Muslims and still have pictures in their possession, what do you have to say to all the reactions from Muhammad in those hadiths? 


-------------------

NB.  _{(editted and added)}

I meant to add this link as well for further artistic depictions:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-47763.0.html#msg1020483

You know what? It is really funny to imagine that those who make or possess pictures will receive the severest punishment; which should make us wonder about murderers and sex perverts in the name of religion - any religion!!

It seems to me that anything that Muhammad just didn't like, he thoughtlessly pronounced "severest punishment" over them - and many people have bought into that excuse of going to hell over the matter of pictures!

As long as you're not worshipping those pictures, there's just nothing to worry over. Free yourself from this "pictures-send-you-to-hell" business, and have loads of them! If them ask you, tell them say na me Gwaine send you - and nothing will come out of it!! 

@YOUNGDICE$,

Know what? Just let me attend to this phone call, and then I'll be back shortly. https://bestsmileys.com/talking/2.gif

It's just quite unfortunate that only dramatized answers keep popping up in straight forward issues like this.

fadal:
there's no prblem taking pictures in islam,i don't know what u talking about i got a hole bunch of my family pictures and they never hated i don't know what's u talking about.

See why I wonder about this dramatized answers you guys often give as responses to simple issues?

Okay, you don't know what I'm talking about; and we both can be forgiven for that. However, is it not true that Islam has some aversion to Muslims having pictures?

If there's no problem about pictures in Islam, Muslims would not have had to boil all over the world for simply depicting Muhammad in picturescartoons; afterall, cartoons about Jesus abound.

There again, we're not about cartoons; but rather about pictures. So, what's the fuss all about in the picture aversions taught in Islam?

@YOUNGDICE$,

[quote author=YOUNGDICE$ link=topic=51218.msg1113894#msg1113894 date=1179092642]YES THERE'S A PROBLEM OF HAVING A PICTURE OF A FAKE DUDE YALL DIDN'T EVEN KNOW.[/quote]That's not even the issue; so please just stay focused. The core issue here has become one about concerns with having pictures in Islam. What does Islam say about the issue of Muslim having pictures?

>peeps in this thread. . . reads a few Muslim replies defending the murder. . . shakes head in utter disbelief. . . and weeps!!<

. . . then logs out to recover!!

Right. After all the plagiarism, we can now settle down and think for ourselves. 

@topic,

What's the problem with who Jesus was? If you're not quite sure from Islam's holy books, at least you could simply check out the answers from the Bible. You didn't have to feverishly start this thread as a desperate reaction to score points for your Muslim apologetics.


PS.
To posters: it would make sense to give credit to sources where articles have been lifted, borrowed, dressed up or re-dressed, confiscated, copped out, or whatever else. What is criminal is to pretend they are your own!!

fadal:
but at least we don't run around with the devils image and be pretending that's MOHAMED.

That's true; and neither do Christians do that. That's why I still wonder what's so strange about taking pictures in Islam.

@zai,

zai:
@poster
I believe the only thing that gurantee Salvation is FATE.

Quite a tragedy! Unless, of course, you meant to say "FAITH" instead.

zai:
And it makes me 2 know that "Except a man dies as a MUSLIM,he can not enter the kingdom of God."

My belief is that, except you personally know the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in your heart, there's no entering the Kingdom of God - John 3:3-5.

zai:
Then
Who is a muslim?
What is Islam?
What r d articles of Faith?
What r d Islam ways of Life?
Except you're a muslim,u might not be able 2 ans all these n cannot know what a Muslim believes.

Infact gaaan, you have just listed out some of the questions I've been hoping Muslims will honestly answer! Please, no hypocritical answers, no drama, and no nonsense - just straight honest talk from all things considered.

Yes??

Well, we can't really speak for the youths - everyone has their private reasons for what they do and what they don't.

[quote author=YOUNGDICE$ link=topic=51218.msg1113174#msg1113174 date=1179065970]but us muslim does not take a fake picture of mahomed and show it to people to believe that's mohamed.[/quote]I'm dazed.    Was it not a Muslim who posted that picture up there with his lame question?

BTW, what is so strange about taking pictures in Islam?  Can any Muslim give me at least 5 good reasons why taking pictures is so disdainful in Islam?

            ---------------------------

While you guys are at it, I think I so like this one - because it captures the advancements made so far that part of the world:

         [img]http://beforeithappens./files/2007/02/060401_sadrprofile_vlwidec.jpg[/img]

The whitewash of the 'political correctness' accorded the thugs of the North is beginning to disappear.

mrpataki:
Men Men It is a lie!!!!!!!!!

Happy Sunday to you

Gwaine where have you been?

Are you back for real or going again? Missed a lot of guys here!

Articulate inputs once again!!

Lol

Happy Sunday, mrpataki. I've been quite busy and only recently relocated. Getting more settled in my new environment; so I guess you'll be reading more frequently from me (although on and off between times as I travel a lot these days as well).

Great to be back - and many blessings to you.

davidylan:
As long as such gaping holes appear in so-called quranic "stories" of the prophets, it is more evidence that they are merely plagiarised from the bible by someone with a clear agenda to decieve millions by trying desperately to make the quran sound similar to the bible.

They won't admit it. I have only one verdict on this: since Muslims are now telling us that the Torah and Injil from their Quran are lost, they have no business trying to find Muhammad in the Bible. Any such rascally behaviour will only draw out some very interesting posts from me on the real face of Islam - from their own books!

mrpataki:

Count me in! Tired of his sidekicks here and there. Whether it is language that his problem or simply delusional, the coming weeks will get to know.

You know me - I don't spare rascals; and the coming week will determine where we go from here.

donnie:
_{The weeks went by, and the woman began to notice some old symptoms returning. Before long, her hair began to fall off, her tummy began to swell. Oh the woman called to Pastor Benny for help. But how do i help you now? the man of God asked. You've lost all those weeks of faith you got. I'm sorry i can't do anything about it}.

Very, very sad indeed. Something is suspect here. 

donnie:
<sub>Just for the records: . . .She was called Mma Ba by those who knew her. She is still alive and well and ever ready to testify of God's goodness.

Well, the weeks went by and the diabaetic symptoms began to re-appear. This time, it was not long before it killed her</sub>

Kai, donnie!   Take style arrange your lines very well before you post! In the same breath as you claimed that "she is still alive and well", we are reading quite the opposite that "it was not long before it killed her"! So, which one is it - "still alive and well" or deadly alive?

donnie:
_{It was obvious that these religious folks did not mind that she died, as long as they succeeded in preventing her from that Christ Embassy. . .
Oh my! Please excuse me some folly here; but If i were God, while he is yet blaspheming, i will not hessitate to send a bolt of lightning to first of all, burn off his clothes right there in front of his congregation, before roasting him from head to toe}.

Allahu akbar! You don join them terrorists??

    ---------------------------

See what personality-cult-worship does (a.k.a "hero-worship"? I've always had the persuasion that any "deliverance" or "healing" that ties you to any particular church/denomination is suspect. It is almost the same thing as being delivered from one malady into another migraine.

Make una be careful with the hero-worship phenomena. Who can argue now that one sure thing it breeds is what we are reading from the originator of this thread?? Phew! Thank goodness none of us is "God" - some of us would have been smoked out by now for the comments we made here! 


PS.
That reminds me: what about this thing wey them dey call "we're all gods with small g"?? Is this an offshoot of that idea? 

davidylan:
[img]http://www.thesmilies.com/smilie-generator/image/cyan%5E_%5Etahoma%5E_%5E0%5E_%5E0%5E_%5EWhere+are+allahs+LOST+books%3F%5E_%5E.gif[/img]

Here are babs787's answers:

babs787:
The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.

babs787:
THE TORAH WAS LOST

Okay, since allah's books are lost and cannot be found, let's just all settle down and celebrate the great loss!! https://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif

The question now is: since the Qur'anic books of the Torah and the Injil are LOST, what is Muhammad doing in the Bible??

Muslim apologists who have been speaking on both sides of their mouth, while claiming that the Torah and Injil are lost, have desperately tried to force the name "Muhammad" into the Bible - especially into Deuteronomy 18 and John 14 & 16. There's only one implication for this cowardly dribbling: Muhammad was in "the LOST Torah and Injil" and Muslims should cease from trying to find him in the Bible - he's simply not there!


       --------------------------------

And what about the questions presented in this link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52589.0.html#msg1102231 ??

[img]http://www.thesmilies.com/smilie-generator/image/cyan%5E_%5Etahoma%5E_%5E0%5E_%5E0%5E_%5Ebabs787+are+you+still+playing+games%3F%5E_%5E.gif[/img]

stimulus:
Babs787, just don't try your games with me. You're simply https://bestsmileys.com/signs11/9.gif

@stimulus,

I've been following your debates with babs787. You've done quite well in exposing his hypocrisy and deliberate defamation of Christ, as well his unceasing calumny against Christianity. It's obvious he's been playing these illiterate games for long; but he didn't quite prepare for the exposure. You don't have to worry a thing now: we dey here and in the coming weeks, I'll help him further with the hideous camouflage about Muhammad - right from their very books.

@babs787,

babs787:
Most of things you called deriding are plain truth and nothing more but as the saying goes, truth is always bitter. When you bring out truth for someone to see, he will tell you that you have been deriding or insulting him.

If you can go on deliberately casting aspersions on Jesus Christ, Christianity and the Bible in spite of the several attempts of many people to reason with you, then you're inviting the very same thing henceforth from people like me. Your pretences are now worn out; and if you want to read the "plain truth and nothing more" about Muhammad henceforth, continue your adventures. I already have a rascal trademark on the Forum and can well serve you your nightmares in the weeks to come.

stimulus:
I hope when out-of-place things are being said about Muhammad and Islam, you'll remember your callous "apologetics" here?? Since your derogation of Christianity is what you call "plain truth", I would only return in a few weeks from official assignment to read the "plain truth" people give about Islam.

Enjoy them.

Well said, stimulus. . . well said.

segoye2:
Do miracles really happen today? if yes, how do you explain it to unbelievers? How fellow believers?

@segoye2,

That last line suggests to me that you still are very much in doubt about the miraculous. I may be wrong, and I hope I am dead wrong!! But then, if all you want is some kind of "proof" for the authentic cases, what are we to do with the 11% of such cases (besides the 89% "false" that happen to be yet proven?

Okay, I know you stated earlier that you believe in miracles. But then, I wonder if even the miracles that Jesus Himself performed in the first century would have needed "medical" proofs in the hospitals back then? What I do know is that not every case of people being healed have to first go and register in a local hospital for documentation purposes. It might be of great help, but the demand for such in order to believe is actually tantamount to doubt.

I don't mean to fray your nerves; but then I would appeal that when people make claims, we can believe them until further investigation reveals them as frauds. I know several such cases in large denominations, and we have to recognise these sad cases for what they are.

Yet, I believe that when people share their testimonies, we could only wait and see until otherwise proven. I believe in miracles - and I trust you do as well.

Regards.