₦airaland Forum

mupper2:
European, specifically Irish

It's just that Irish camo is actually illegal to own/sell here and it's owned by the DF...

Yes, Ireland does tend to be rather inflexible about everything considered military-related property of the state.

The Defence Forces in your country won't even part with their decommissioned or surplus vehicles, or the vast stockpile of parts they have for them (priceless on the collector's market)...all of it goes straight to the tin town and then the scrap yard, where pristine condition AML armoured cars - some of which have only depot mileage - are being blowtorched in half. You'll be lucky if some oke manages to pinch a muzzle brake or a headlamp. I always fancied that a bit of a waste.

Ferret Mk2 of Sudan gets a new life.

The persistent longevity of the Ferret series - which even predates the AML - among Arab armies in particular boggles the mind.

From my experience the Ferret has to be one of the most robust armoured cars ever designed since the end of WWII. Easily the AK-47 of early postwar scout cars: a simple design that continues to function even under appalling conditions.

I would rate the Ferret as more reliable than the AML, and that's not something I concede easily.

frumentius:
Hrmnn, from the Armour Museum in Bloem.

Thanks for posting these boet.

I can never get enough of the Tempe museums. Armour and 1SSB always have the best exhibits and a very dedicated staff who keep all the vehicles in such stellar condition.

ActivateKruger:
WTF? We donated 450 Samil Trucks to Uganda? This is wrong, very wrong.

If standard procedures were followed, they weren't entirely free of charge.

The Ugandan government would still have to pay all shipping costs, plus the cost of refurbishing the vehicles until they reach a standard that they can be approved for export.

Depending on the terms of the agreement, Uganda may have also been asked to pay for any additional inventories of parts they'll need to keep the SAMILs running.

It's common for the SANDF to donate large numbers of vehicles to another country, which must then cough up additional funds for the associated logistics, transport, and refurbishment. A third party contractor like OTT Technologies, Mechanology, or Paramount Group is then brought in to handle all of that, and profits accordingly.

For example when the SANDF committed to donate 90 SAMILs and Ratel-90s to the CAR, they were never shipped because the latter had happily agreed to the "donation" without taking into account they would have to foot the bill for dozens of cargo flights into Bangui, the refurbishing of the vehicles to meet certain export standards, and all the associated parts and 90mm ammunition, which were not being provided and would have to be bought separately.

Naturally the CAR had insufficient funds for all of the above, so the vehicles were sitting on an airstrip somewhere and were finally claimed by the third party contractor as compensation for their troubles.

ActivateKruger:
Where are these Elands sourced from, I thought we no longer had any.

That's a good question, and I see only two possibilities as to where they could've come from:

1) A batch of 80 Elands was still in deep storage somewhere and was advertised for sale by the DoD between 2005 and 2009.

You can see the relevant links here:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SANDF-gets-rid-of-surplus-20051004

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20150128102611/http://www.armscor.co.za/Tenders/TenderAnnouncement.asp?ID=90&TSystem=Armscor%20Bulletin[/url]

These were bought by several local companies in SA, including Paramount and Drankensburg Truck Manufacturers (Pty) Ltd. The 80 have been gradually sold off over the past ten years to various African nations and according to one source I've been in contact with, were even marketed and trialled unsuccessfully in Asia.

2) In the mid 1990s the SANDF sold 200 Elands to Ruemech/OMC for diesel conversion. It was strongly hinted at the time that OMC was planning to resell them in bulk to one customer (Congo-Brazzaville or Zaire/DRC, depending on which story one heard). But then major civil wars broke out in both countries and the governments were overthrown, meaning the order was cancelled. It is unknown what became of these 200 but presumably they're still around somewhere and like the other fleet of 80 are in the process of being gradually sold off.

OMC has been owned by Denel since 2015, along with the remaining diesel Elands if any.

Eland armoured car being rebuilt for an unidentified West African nation, most likely Benin or Burkina Faso.

I believe in this case the rebuild team was contracted from Emerging World Technologies, better known as Mechanology.

newafricaken254:
kenyan police officers posing in front of a kenya army Panhard AML

When the Kenyan Army decides to retire the AML fleet they ought to donate them to the Administration Police and the rural border patrol units in particular.

Those okes do some exceedingly dangerous work with limited resources and could always use more heavy firepower.

Saladin armoured cars of Sudan awaiting repair and refurbishment at the armoured corps workshops in Khartoum.

Moroccan AML-20. This particular vehicle only has a crew of two, as opposed to the usual three needed for most of the AML series.

patches689:
No the whole Ratel fleet is not going to be retired, but even if two batches are put through thats only regular formations being re-equipped.

Like I said, they should have given iKlwa the green light so that those Ratels left over would have been brought up to modern standards.

For what it's worth, some of the Ratels are indeed being brought up to much more modern standards whenever the funding has come through.

For example, the upgraded turrets and sophisticated fire control systems installed on the Ratel-60s. That's something the DoD has accomplished only in the past five or six years as far as I can tell.

So despite the adoption of the Badger money is still being budgeted and spent for improving the existing Ratel fleet.

chkil0:
Oldies , AML panhard , algerian gendarms

Great photo there boet.

Tunisian recce squadron with AML-90s.

AML-60 of Senegal. All of these were upgraded with Peugeot XD 3T Diesel engines.

Hrmnn:
These lovely AML-90 Lynxes were recently modernised by a French company for an unknown client.

Not sure if the blue is the final coat of paint or just a primer. It would seem to indicate gendarmerie as opposed to armed forces vehicles.

Cannot recognise the licence plate, unfortunately. End user could be Morocco or Tunisia.

An update on this post I made a month or so ago: the AML-90 Lynxes depicted were indeed going to Morocco.

The Moroccan gendarmerie has recently paraded them in public:

lionel4power:
I know one day I'll understand the value or role of armored cars in todays battlefield...

I still can't wrap my head on its usefulness.

oh well!! here comes RPG its mortal enemy

It all depends on the particular country's requirements.

A nation like Chad has a very limited rail infrastructure and almost no heavy equipment transporters, which are necessary for tanks and BMPs and the like.

Chad's logistics infrastructure is also very limited in the remote regions of the country where it has to do most of its fighting. Another thing absolutely necessary for tanks are workshops and adequate repair facilities.

Armoured cars like the Eland do not require heavy equipment transporters and do not have to be moved by rail.

They can self-deploy without consuming excessive fuel or breaking down repeatedly, which is what would happen if you tried to drive say, an Abrams or a Leclerc from one side of the Aouzou strip to the other without using a transporter.

They do not require a large amount of maintenance equipment or sophisticated workshops like tanks. For example, you can easily take an Eland's turret off with a chain on a tree. This will not work with a tank for obvious reasons.

They use much more cheap commercial parts and automotive components which are readily sourced and do not have to be flown in from a central depot or some specialised company overseas.

And best of all they can be driven and repaired easily by people from rural areas who lack formal education or technical knowledge. These people currently make up the majority of Chad's armed forces. It is ten times easier for somebody from the nearest wadi village and maybe two weeks of very basic mechanic instruction to take an Eland's engine apart or repair its chassis as opposed to a tank and a heavier vehicle with several different wheel stations.

In addition, most of Chad is sand or packed dirt. Tanks would be more mobile if there was a lot of mud and swamps, but there isn't. Armoured cars can go to the furthest regions of Chad except maybe the mountainous areas without difficulty, and respond to a rebel offensive in these regions much quicker than a tank/BMP/heavy wheeled vehicle like the Centauro.

That is not to say that armoured cars like the Eland are best in every situation, however.

They are not suitable for a country which 1) has lots of rough, muddy terrain and few roads, 2) is faced with the prospect of a major conventional war involving an enemy using their own tanks and heavily armoured vehicles, or 3) is developed enough to have a large fleet of transporters, a developed rail network, and thousands of well-trained tank mechanics.

I have always maintained that it is not my desire to present vehicles like the AML/Eland as an ideal asset on any modern conventional battlefield. They are increasingly obsolete and I feel more of them need to be in museums or in the hands of collectors like myself.

However, in this particular case they have continued to work well in lieu of more heavily armed and armoured vehicles, per the reasons above.

AML upgraded to Eland standard; recently showcased at a European arms fair.

This vehicle was one of a batch maintained by a French firm which was later sold to Chad.

ArtanK:
I don't understand why Africans still buy these outdated pieces of scrap. They're really inaccurate and hella cheap for a reason..

Truck mounted MLRS can share parts commonality with all the other utility trucks in service. It's simplifying logistics and reducing not only purchase cost but maintenance and parts cost too.

So if you have a low defence budget and say a fleet of preexisting Ural trucks, the BM-21 is a worthwhile piece of equipment to keep in service. Especially since it can deal effectively with anything insurgents or your even poorer neighbour can throw at you.

Of course, if you can afford better by all means buy better and more sophisticated systems, just be aware chances are they won't share parts commonality with all your other trucks and will be more considerably more expensive to operate and maintain.

chkil0:
Panhard m3 , algeria

Wow, I had no idea these were still in service, they were given to Algeria by France in the early 1970s less than a full decade after independence.

Algeria has so much modern equipment now like their upgraded BTRs and Fuchs that the comparatively obsolete M3s I thought for certain were long gone.

You have to admire an army that never throws anything away.

Senegalese Army Eland-90 and AML-60

AML-90 of Gabon on parade.

It is believed that these have all been retired from the army and are now being used by the gendarmerie.

EE-9 Cascavel in Libya. The camouflage scheme is unusual, first time seeing it for me.

Moroccan AML-90.

Morocco currently operates the largest active AML fleet on the African continent. The crews were initially trained by the French in the 1960s and 1970s, by South Africans in the late 1970s and 1980s, and most recently by Brazilians.

lionel4power:
my argument was and still is that a longer barrel nozzle would point to the target late than a shorter barrel

if I have a pistol (short barrel) I can quickly get it to point on your forehead faster than if I have a battle rifle.

Longer Range can be achieved by using a more energetic propellant and SUPER-ELEVATION of the barrel and NOT BY LONG BARREL.


longer barrel is not the deciding factor in geting accurate hits. Accuracy is decided by having a good FCS when all is in order.

That's fine, I disagree with your opinion but nonetheless I will respect it.

You said the Nigerian Army should probably adopt a shorter barrelled gun for the ERC 90 Sagaie.

There's another version of the same vehicle which does exactly that, the ERC 90 Lynx.

Nigeria bought 40 ERC Sagaies (long barrel) and 40 ERC Lynxes (short barrel) some years ago.

So they already possess what you're talking about, most likely in storage somewhere. Photos of the ERC 90 Lynx in use elsewhere:

lionel4power:
not everything is an argument.

this is just simple geometry.

the discussion is about the time differences in traversing from POINT A TO POINT B in a long or short tank barrel.

Not about mechanical or electric drive.

Quite so, but you seemed to be implying that a longer barrelled gun will always turn slower than a shorter barrelled gun, regardless of turret drives.

I'm not arguing with you on the math, merely pointing out that it depends on how the turret drives of any two guns compare.

lionel4power:
the longer the barrel the slower it will traverse 360 degree.

Let me respectfully disagree with this, speaking from personal experience not with tanks but armoured cars and the AML series in particular.

Traverse speed all depends on the turret drive, not the length of the barrel.

If the turret is manually traversed then it's not impossible a longer barrel may take longer to traverse.

However, with an electric/hydraulic turret drive a longer barrelled gun can easily turn much faster than a shorter barrelled gun with manual traverse.

For comparison, it takes twenty to thirty seconds for a normal Ratel-90/Eland-90/AML-90 turret to rotate 360 degrees. Maybe slightly faster with a strong and well-drilled gunner. 61mech and anybody else who has hand cranked that turret will attest to this.

It takes ten to fifteen seconds to traverse the same turret with an electric drive, like in the latest models of the AML-90 Lynx.

Manual turret hand cranks in the 90mm turret:

Henry240:
@Hrmnn, here's some of your kind of content

Nigeria COIN

Nigerian troops conducting COIN operations

I like the fact that the MRAP is leading the column, with the AMLs close behind and prepared to provide fire support against ambushes as necessary.

Seened:
I can only imagine the look on Hrmn 's face when he sees this.

What a terrible waste. At least the turret can be recovered and salvaged:

This is why a MRAP should always drive point.

kikuyu1:
Hrmnn and 61stmech will cry for a week when they read this but imo,the little AML60/90 has served its purpose. Time for a larger multi role platform along the lines of the Badger,(I can't find a pic). Its larger, fires a rapid 57mm and can be fitted with an RPG cage for the AFV role or a smaller 30mm when purely APC.

I have never disputed that the AML is a largely obsolete platform.

I like studying it from the perspective of an antique vehicle, not as a serious contender on modern conventional battlefields.

61mech:
The Ferrets were supposed to be replaced by the Mechem Iron Eagle. They just ran out of money before it could be done. Just like all the other projects at the time.

Here's a link to a guy in England who's restoring one that was sold to Alvis.

http://www.warwheels.net/Acorn_IE_ScarabScoutINDEX.html

Ironically, the SANDF then went and made exactly the same mistake in the 90's when they got rid of the Eland90's.
A upgraded Eland with denel's fire ctrl. made for that turret and a 2.4 diesel would be perfect for peacekeeping in Africa.
C-130 transportable with just enough firepower to deal with rebels on landcrousers.

While the Iron Eagle seems to have done well as an air droppable fire support vehicle concept, would it have been possible to replace the Ferret with the Eland?

Since the funding for the Iron Eagle was pulled, substituting a preexisting vehicle would be preferential, and large numbers of Elands would've been available as they were being replaced by the Rooikat in the 1990s.

The Israelis and the French Foreign Legion seemed to deploy AMLs pretty successfully in the airborne role, so there was already a precedent for it.

Ferrets of the Parabats.

In the 1960s they were relegated to storage in Grahamstown as a result of the Eland programme. Many were brand new, less than ten years old and had barely been driven. In my opinion the decision to mothball the entire Ferret fleet in favour of the redundant Elands was one of the most wasteful things the old defence force ever did.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the Eland and it was superior to the Ferret in almost every way except some aspects of mechanical reliability (gearboxes and bevel boxes on the Ferret gave much fewer problems, despite being very similar to the same ones on the AML/Eland).

However, if you spend a fortune buying 200+ brand new armoured cars straight off the production line, you cannot then begin replacing them with an identical vehicle less than six years later, and literally have them all out of service by ten years later. That is an incredible waste of money and logistics and to this day I am convinced it was a political decision made by the National Party, which was trying to cozy up to France as their new arms supplier at the time after relations with the U.K. cooled.

In the late 1970s the Ferrets were reactivated by 44 Parachute Brigade and fitted with Recoilless rifles and MILAN ATGMs. They were modified to be airdropped.

As part of Exercise Magersfontein in 1988 the Parabat Ferrets were tested in a mock airborne assault off Walvis Bay. It was strongly implied at the time that Exercise Magersfontein was to test tactics which might be used against the Cubans if they crossed into South West Africa.

The Cubans never came, and the Ferrets were retired for the final time at some point between 1989 and 1994.

I read a news headline in the early 1990s which mentioned the SADF had sold off some to Malawi, but that is the last I ever heard of them.

Presumably most shared the same fate as most of the noddies and were cut up for scrap by Armscor's disposal division.

One is currently at the War Museum in Joburg, one or two are at the Bats museum in Tempe, and two or three are at the Armour Corps Museum (also Tempe). One of those is running and may be the only operational example left in RSA; someone posted a photo of it on this thread earlier.

61mech:
Actually, one of the reasons the ZT-3 was chosen as a beamrider was because of experiences with using Milans in the bush.
The reconnaissance reg. used them in some sabre vehicle ops. and the wires got tangled up in branches all the time. Milans were so ineffective that they went back to using recoilless guns on their vehicles.

The first ZT-3's fired by Hannes Nortman and his Ratels against FAPLA tanks were actually pre-production prototypes. The engineers at Kentron were busy with using them as testing rounds when they were taken and put into action in Angola during Moduler on pre-production vehicles.

Yes I heard the ones in the field were pre-production models, much like the G6s.

In his book The SADF in the Border War Leopold Scholtz states that a Ratel ZT3 was called up against the Cuban T-55s in Operation Hilti/Displace but couldn't fire due to the thick bush. In the end the tanks had to be engaged by the Olifants.

Apparently, this wasn't an issue with the FAPLA tanks Nortmann destroyed earlier because they were emerging onto a flat flood plain.

I assumed this was the reason they weren't used more often, but perhaps I was mistaken?

andrewza:
Lots of places in south Africa and nambia, Botswana and Zimbabwe where they could be used properly

Of course, and I certainly wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

Where I used to live in the Free State (just northeast of Odendaalsrus) the terrain was extremely arid and flat. A Ratel ZT3 would be invariably more useful there than in say, the Angolan bush.

Even more so in parts of the Northern Cape and Namibia where it's much more sparsely vegetated.

I was merely pointing out that's why the Ingwe wasn't used with more success during Ops Moduler, Hooper, and Packer.

LTGEN:
You sure you didn't fight in the Angolan Civil war?
I am not trying​ to be offensive but you are imparting a lot of knowledge that is important even today.

I have always held that by studying the battles and tactics of the past we can learn a lot for the future. There is no reason that the lessons of the Angolan war cannot be applied to any other modern conflict.

I did not personally serve in the SADF but I have nothing but the utmost respect for those that did.

Ratel ZT3.

While I always liked the Ingwe missile, its usefulness (like all ATGMs) is limited when fighting in thick bush.

In Angola, for instance the Ratel ZT3s were only able to engage the Angolan T-55s when they briefly came out into the open on a flat flood plain. They would've destroyed a hell of a lot more tanks than those initial three otherwise.

The inefficiency of long range ATGMs in this terrain, as well as the relatively close quarters of engagement, mean that RPG type weapons or direct fire from cannon are practically the only way for ground forces to kill tanks in the particular environment type.