₦airaland Forum

Odunayaw:
you sure love this babies

I reckon some day I'll have saved up enough to buy one and restore it.

As time goes on and more of them go out of service they'll be increasingly reduced to scrap or museum pieces. Then they'll become valuable as antique vehicles rather than weapons.

@on topic, this was done by a Zimbabwean artist with a lead pencil:

AML-90s of the Senegalese Gendarmerie. I haven't seen this camouflage scheme before.

These are the original Panhard model as opposed to the Eland favoured by the Senegalese Army. Note the spare tyre, and lack of a raised turret cupola as well as the missing brushguards over the front headlamps.

Taking a break from the real-life photographs for a while, here are some military paintings I thought were pretty good.

First one depicts Operation Tacaud in Chad, late 1970s.

The others are from the bush war in Angola: FAPLA and SWAPO on the offensive during Op Saluting October, a Ratel and SADF squad, and Johann Venter goes after his first FAPLA MiG kill.

Eland-90s and an EE-9 Cascavel of Burkina Faso.

Taken June or July 2016 - Senegalese AML crews being trained by the Éléments français au Sénégal (EFS). Possibly some of the same guys sighted on the Gambian border.

Henry240:
Senegalese army AML's in Gambia.


Where is that South-African that loves the AML vehicles. Please can anyone recall his moniker, so I can tag him in this photo.


@Hrmnn

Thank you my boet for posting these.

I was wondering when we would see Senegalese AMLs/Elands in the Gambian standoff.

These photos were actually taken by photojournalist Jerome Delay in Barra, which is directly across from Banjul.

Hi all.

I recently found these photos of what appears to be a Ratel with a very unusual gun-turret. Looks to be much larger than a 90mm, perhaps a 100mm or 105mm? Any relation to the iklwa?

As I have not seen this variant before I was wondering if some of you Saffer okes could shed some light on it. Apologies if it's been posted before.

I assume it's an export model by Denel or something, as the crew posing next to it in the second picture don't appear to be wearing SANDF uniforms.

61mech:
We should still have Elands lying around SANDF depots. If you look at the nr.s exported and the nr.s produced there should be a lot left. Problem is they'd have to be brought back and upgraded with diesels etc. Denel already has a modern fire control upgrade for that turret. You'd only have to modify it for the 90mm.

A couple of squadrons would be enough, but the troops still need to be trained and new units stood up. Then there's the issue of 90mm ammo stocks. I doubt they have been replenished over the years and the Ratel 90's must have burnt through a lot. I doubt Denel would reopen production and the SANDF's ammo standards are much higher than some of the other countries operating them, so they won't buy surplus.

For what it's worth, a Belgian firm still makes the ammo for the same 90mm gun.

See here: http://www.mecar.be/content.php?langue=english&cle_menus=1156856595

Like I said, there's tons of Elands just sitting around Tempe Base. A few (mostly reserve) units also have them for parades and the like.

frumentius:
The Israeli company Saymar has done sterling work upgrading the Kenyan AML-90s. I think they've done work on Ugandan/Rwandan ones too?
That's why it pisses me off we got rid of all our Elands and replaced them with Rooikats we can't transport in C-130. Meanwhile those Elands are still serving well with the Chadians, Moroccans, Senegalese and Gabonese.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZtU96lzhbA

Saymar's done work on Panhard vehicles for Kenya, Burma, and (I've heard) Burundi. Possibly Lesotho as well. The current curator of the Israeli Armored Corps Museum used to be involved in the Saymar project to upgrade those AML-90s, he's a wonderful chap I had the pleasure of meeting once at the Latrun.

We didn't get rid of all our Elands and the SANDF could reactivate a full squadron if it wanted tomorrow.

Visit Tempe Base in Bloemfontein sometime, you'll see dozens of Eland-90s. They're just sitting in empty lots, being used as sign posts, or collecting rust in that athletic field to the left of the main gatehouse at the end of Furstenburg Road. I saw them when I was on the base about three years ago.

Some of the ones remaining in the SANDF's inventory still run and are used for firing off gun salutes on special occasions. I've included a few photos of these surviving cars below.

Yesterday Beegeagle's Blog Twitter account posted the following photo of NAF Panhard vehicles (AML-60s and VBLs) in a staging point. There are ERC 90s in the background, too.

The photo was posted with the comment:

"Largest assemblage of Panhard AMLs of the NA which I have seen for 25+ years. Gladdens the heart. Where are the Panhard AML 90s?

I have not spotted ONE unit of legacy hardware system (Panhard AML 90) throughout the duration of this war. Ditto the ENGESA EE9 Cascavel"

It's an interesting point. I remember seeing news photos of NAF AML-90s in action during the ECOWAS involvement with Sierra Leone but that's been a while. I've never once seen an NAF Cascavel. Perhaps they've been in storage or are simply unserviceable.

GreenandGold:
2 dead dudes, both shot on the head. Because of the wounds I'll assume 1 dude was shot with an MP5 then the other one with an armour piercing round from an R1. He's f#cked I tell you.

I had no idea R1s are still used by the SAPS. I heard most of them were rounded up and destroyed a few years back, in compliance with a UN-sponsored disarmament programme.

Just as well I suppose, some surplus weapons always tend to slip through the cracks.

patches689:
Yes, this is the correct assesment.

Executive Outcomes were renowned for bringing their own toys to the party. Since its the same group with a different name, I dont see why they would change their practices.

How they got such toys on such short notice is the real question.

I've read somewhere that the equipment was ordered by the military of whatever host country EO was operating in and shipped out to them. The end-user was supposed to be the host country, but of course it was EO paying for the goods and taking charge of them once they arrived.

This was the case with the EO BMP-2s and Hinds in Sierra Leone. The shipping order from the country of origin (I think I remember it being Ukraine) stated that they were going to the Sierra Leone government.

I must say some of the downright nastiness between the Saffies and the Nigerians on this thread is shocking.

All those I've had the privilege of knowing who served in the SANDF had nothing but respect for other armed forces - especially other African armed forces, who often have to shoulder the same burdens on shoestring budgets, with fewer resources. They (and with particular regards to the SADF/SWATF veterans) were some of the humblest okes I knew. Never boasted about how great they were - or how earth-shatteringly great the defence force was - and how inferior others were. They had no problem with meeting FAPLA or even Russian veterans for instance as equals, no objection to serving alongside Rwandans, Tanzanians, Egyptians, and Senegalese in the DRC.

And I believe those who serve in the NAF probably feel the same way. There is much mutual respect between soldiers on this continent who have all undergone the same struggles at some point (even when the politicians disagree).

So, out of respect for all those who served proudly and died for their countries - whether for South Africa or Nigeria - let us not continue the trash talking or the baity behavior. We are not doing our countries or the heroes of our armed forces any favours.

Patchesagain:
Mirage F1AZs from Paramount would be a better deal

Pay in Rands, no political issues and you get an excellent aircraft as well as in-house training from Paramount. Not to mention the huge pool of (grey-haired) well trained technicians

The ex-SAAF Mirage F1AZs are hopelessly outdated compared to the JF-17 and MiG-29. Yes they've undergone extensive upgrades and gotten their avionics suite overhauled, but most of that, including the Aida radar is still embargo-era, '80s tech.

I'm not saying it's not a great deal for smaller countries like Gabon that still went for the F1AZ, just that if a modern air force can afford better it should buy better.

Another thing to mention is that Paramount sold its entire inventory of F1AZs and their associated parts to Aerosud, so that's the company which currently stocks them.

Some photos of the military vehicle graveyard in Asmara, Ethiopia.

The graveyard include practically every armored vehicle ever used by the Ethiopian Army from the mid 1960s to the late 1980s. Land Rovers, BTR-60s, BTR-40s, BTR-152s, Panhard AMLs, BRDM-2s, M24 Chaffee tanks, M41 Walker Bulldog tanks, MT-LBs, T-34s, and T-55s.

All that scrap metal must be worth millions.

ActivateKruger:
I'm a believer of our own products HOWEVER I don't believe the Rooivalk would ever sell outside South Africa. See, buying a machine like the Rooivalk goes beyond "Wow this machine is great", there's plenty of politics to consider.... South Africa is an AFRICAN country so I don't think the world is prepared to invest the future of their air defence (even partially) to an African country. We're still not there.

*The Western world.

Asian, Arab, and African states might buy the Rooivalk. It's mostly the Afro-Asian-Arab bloc which has purchased Armscor and Denel products such as Casspirs, Elands, Ratels, and Ingwe missiles.

South American states have also bought Cheetahs so they're clearly willing to entrust their air defence to an African nation.

Believe it or not some countries are more than happy to buy air defence products from RSA provided the Rooivalk can be competitive on the international market. Right now, it isn't. It's not as advanced as the latest Western attack helicopters but it's also more expensive than a Hind. That's a very narrow customer base to appeal to.

MikeCZA:
Misusing the Gecko.

They need a vehicle similar to the Hornet. Maybe the Pathfinders first.

What is this vehicle you posted? A Centauro? The Stryker MGS?

MikeCZA:
One of the nine versions of the Badger IFV.

The version with the Denel 60mm long range mortar(The M6). Able to reach out to targets up to 6km.

Besides offering the normal high trajectory of mortars this mortar can be lowered down and fired like gun. Similar to the French mortar on the Eland-60.

Mike, didn't Denel also develop and build the mortar on the Eland-60? I heard it was called the "Denel K-1". What was the range on it?

jln115:
Agree, self reliance goes hand in hand with having a strong defence industry, ours is still growing!! we still really heavily on Western components with regards to our Air force and Navy , like we traditionally have even during the SADF days.

But we are making great strides, all our Oryx and Rooivalk spares are manufactured locally through AHZA and Denel Aviation take care of all MRO of which its an accredited MRO service centre for Super Puma, Puma and Squirrel aircraft! C130 MRO is taken care of by the local Astra company for the most part!

As for our Army, its pretty much self-reliant even the Engines in our Rooikat Ratel SAMIL Mamba Casspir are locally manufactured!

Locally manufactured yes, but mostly Deutz types, which is a German design. Any tiffie will tell you that.

I know the engines are built and assembled locally by Atlantis, which also subcontracts a lot of the parts to other companies in RSA but I can't say with absolute certainty that they're 100% indigenous. Even during sanctions the Germans sold the old government a lot of dual-use automotive parts (especially for the Rooikat programme).

It's always like this when you talk about foreign designs built under licence - you're never really sure how much of it is local and how much of it uses imported technical components.

Henry240:
It's a Cold War relic. I wonder why you're so fascinated by it. It's not a cost effective solution.

Sure, and I'm not promoting the idea it's cutting edge or somehow superior on a modern battlefield. The gun isn't stabilised, there's no modern sights or fire control, and no rangefinder either meaning you have to estimate.

But it's a very interesting vehicle from a historical and engineering point of view. I used to own copies of both Eland and AML manuals and some of the information inside was fascinating. Like how these vehicles used an electric clutch and had no need for a clutch pedal. And how the battery was located inside the vehicle behind the driver's seat, in the hull floor. Of course both of these features proved to be major weaknesses, which is why modernised AMLs rarely have them.

We study old antique cars not because they're what we prefer to drive today, but because they're fascinating as relics and important parts of history.

giles14:
don't mind the fools tomorrow they will expect other African nations to buy weapons from them.
this xenophobic behavior has eaten deep into there daily life.

Don't African countries already buy a lot of SA weapons? Like the Eland.

@Everybody else:

Anyway, here are some photos of Eland 90s in action in Cote d'Ivoire and Senegal.

You can tell these are Elands, not Panhard AMLs because of 1) the brush guards over the front headlamps, 2) the up-raised commander's cupola, and 3) the modified rear hull with that large air intake grille.

The South African rear hulls look this way because they housed a liquid-cooled engine rather than the original air-cooled Panhard one; therefore the entire rear hull had to be rebuilt to accommodate the new cooling system.

chkil:
and to finish your logic of cheap weapons it's for poor country when you have the money you can get the best you want ,algeria for exemple buy from the est (russia , china) and from west (germany , england , italy, france) , so they can take the best that they want , and if they focus on russian for strategic weapons ( MBT , aicrafts fighter , air defenses sytems , submarines) , i 'm sur you know it's not because they don't have money for

It's a trade-off. You're not putting all your political eggs in one basket if you buy from multiple countries. Meaning, you're not dependent on the whims of one government to keep your military supplied.

But on the other hand, you now have separate logistics tails and weapons without interchangeable ammo or parts (nothing to worry about if you're a big country, but for most African armies on a limited budget this is a serious consideration).

jln115:
Nope Ratel90s were never organized into "Anti-Tank Troops" ,RatelZT3s are the only Ratel Anti-Tank Platform, Ratel90s are for fire support!

Eland 90s were recce vehicles, and Rooikat76s were built to replace them.....So no they were never deployed against enemy T55 but have destroyed a few when they have accidentally met on the battlefield, but that's due to the skill of the crews and the terrain which is much better suited to wheeled vehicles......Interesting fact is that the 76mm Gun on the Rooikat is much more powerful than the 90mm on the Eland/Ratel90s!!

When did Eland 90s accidentally meet with T55s on the battlefield? Was it during Sceptic/Smokeshell?

A few more shots of the Withings.

This Withings originally belonged to 101 Battalion, SWATF.

It was then transferred to the SADF liaison team to UNITA during Op Alpha Centauri in '86. It was in the process of recovering another vehicle when it detonated an anti-tank mine. The liaison guys were trapped between the retreating UNITA forces and FAPLA's offensive so they made the difficult decision to sabotage the engine and leave it behind.

Withings recovery vehicle and Buffel on display at the national Angolan military museum Luanda. One of the Buffel's registration numbers is R67013. The other one might be R29177.

SWAPO claimed to have captured R29177 in October 1987 but it remains unclear who they captured it from. I've included a picture of R29177 being inspected by SWAPO or FAPLA.

@africaken254:

For those interested, these wrecked/captured Elands depicted in africaken254's post can still be found at Ebo, Angola. One of them has been towed to Luanda and received a cosmetic restoration; it is now at the national Angolan military museum.

jln115:
Firstly welcome to the thread/s Hermann(Im guessing !!

anyway back to the point, let me first get this of my chest, Ratel90s, Eland, Panhard AML, Rooikat ect ect are not and never will be anti-tank platforms and were never designed to replace Tanks. I've always said Tanks are becoming obsolete or even to an extent are already obsolete in the Southern African region, tracked vehicles are just not conducive to our environment and it was this reason why Ratel90s were able to take out several Angolan and Cuban tanks......BUT having said that, they never went out to actually hunt tanks.....Actually far from it!! God forbid the day a Ratel meets a T55 in a Temperate Rain-forests area like the DRC for example.....There will be no Ratel left!! Yet a RatelZT3 in a grassland region vs.......any tank in the world and its bye bye Tank!!

In a continent were the biggest threat most countries face is from irregular forces, i also find it strange that not more countries are investing in dedicated CION assets, Nigeria currently looks to be on the right path, but for the rest.....................

T90 is just a upgraded T72, and with so many African countries operating the T72, so i don't think mechanically maintaining the T90 is anymore expensive than the T72....electronically however is a different matter all together

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, I was speaking specifically about all the advanced electronics in the T-90, sorry if that was not being made clear.

I'm a little confused as to why Ratel90s never went out to hunt tanks, because if I'm remembering my SANDF history right they were organised into "anti-tank troops". Why would they call it an anti-tank troop or anti-tank platoon unless they were specifically used to kill tanks? Perhaps you can enlighten me on this.

Also, were the Rooikat and Eland ever deployed against T-55s? I wonder how they performed, would make for interesting reading.

For almost four decades African militaries invested heavily in technicals and armored cars and APCs as opposed to tanks, presumably because tanks hadn't yet started to proliferate on the continent.

However, now there are many tanks in Africa.

Some countries which still use mostly armored cars like the Panhard AML over tanks include Burundi, Malawi, Chad, Burkina Faso, Benin, Niger, and Djibouti. Armored cars and heavily armed IFVs like the Ratel-90 and BMP series are still relevant on the continent because they pack enormous firepower without the price tag of a main battle tank, and just are capable of destroying one themselves, either with guns or missiles. As the Chadians proved in the Chadian-Libyan conflict and indeed the South Africans during their war with Angola, ergonomic wheeled vehicles are suitable for leaving a limited logistics footprint and requiring less maintenance while still carrying incredible heat.

I believe most African nations initially settled for armored cars and the like because they were suitable for internal missions and using a tank to hunt guerrillas is wasteful and expensive.

However, as the continent becomes locked in an increasing regional arms races and the number of tanks and very heavily armored IFVs start making their appearance this will likely change. Emphasis has been shifting to major, combined arms conventional warfare for the first time.

I noticed Uganda bought T-90s for instance. That is probably one of the most sophisticated MBTs in Africa right now and I have no idea how they were able to afford it, or afford the maintenance thereof.

But this is an interesting topic to consider as far as modern armored warfare in Africa goes.

Photos of an Eland armored car, made in RSA. Known for chewing up Angolan T-55s and as demonstrated during the bush war, more than a match for older tanks in capable hands.

Also used by Uganda, Cote d'Ivoire, Malawi, Benin, Zimbabwe, and others.