₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
Don't "thought" without first checking the facts or you'd be coming up with silly statements like:

"I don't believe good atheists exist."

Lmao

budaatum:
Not all religious people are the same I suppose. As we see here, the op is presenting his belief as a conclusion, but that's not to assume such behaviour is religious only as I find atheists do the same, "invoke authorities", at least.

Understand that concepts take on different contexts at different times depending on their uses.

When someone says God is the reason for morality.

This doesn't present God the conclusion on cosmic cause and effect but rather as a basis on the assumptive bases for good and bad.

I suppose we are using 'belief' 'conclusion' 'basis' here differently it feels to me we are not within the same context.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. A thought about a subject that instills value or distinction in value may be from the result of an understanding too, or knowledge even, and does not have to be a belief.

Lol. Morality is an idea, it is conceptual hence there is no moral fact.

If there is no moral fact, there is no way understanding or knowledge factors into moral conclusions.

E.g: Science says the earth is warming

Doesn't mean that science says burning bushes is morally wrong.

Knowledge doesn't come with moral weight, the moral weight is ascribed to things fundamentally from the position of belief since morality itself is immaterial.

You can't know what is not there.

You can know physical or material things but you can't know things that aren't physical there are contingent on a fundamental belief.

Such things are conceived or assumed not known.

E.g; There are physical difference between a human and a cow.

In what way does this factor into their moral difference?

So yes, belief is a necessity in morality.

You may however argue by pointing out that humans can exercise belief as a form of imaginary order independent of external authority therefore belief in God doesn't necessarily present the only approach towards moral derivation and that would be correct.

(I see argument that an understanding or knowledge, is a mere belief, but I'm making a distinction here.)

Not necessarily. A fact is known. There are no moral facts.

Educate to know, instead of tell to mere believe. The difference is, in educating, one must give background, present reasons, lead to understanding, etc, while to believe is to just accept a thing as so with little or no consideration whatsoever. An example of the a belief would be the ops statement: "I don't believe good atheists exist." And an example of the former is what we are doing to op here, educating him.

Moral basis
Imaginary orders

Can't be known, they are rather believed.

No matter how you approach morality whether implicitly or explicitly, belief is at basis of it all.

You can educate people that rape hurts people (Fact)

That's not same as telling them that rape is morally wrong (Belief)

hucknall:
1.) Okay what made those human make such decisions?

1. Necessity of order within the circle for each to thrive
2. Obligation as a commodity for unity
3. Understanding that interpersonal interaction is inevitable

2.) why where they accepted?

1. necessity of interpersonal interactions
2. Conceived advantages of an orderly community
3. Belief in a central authority
4. Shared imaginary order/belief

3.) where the decisions void of believes on supernaturals?

Depends the specimen your are considering since these humans are enshrined within social orders such as country, continent, states, hamlets, towns, families, religion.


Continue

hucknall:
who are these humans.

A group of homo sapiens at any localized environment or socioeconomic clique at any point in time.


Go on

budaatum:
You make "belief" sound like its a thing only had by people of a particular religion as if "revered spirits of the ancestors, wise and just, ancient warriors with brave deeds to their names", is not a belief in itself.

Lol. That's actually the point. It is a belief.

I do not have to be a man of belief (including that particular belief) in order to appreciate that particular belief.

You probably assumed my usage of the word 'belief' to mean a particular type of belief. No it didnt.

Mine is the worship of Owala, the river from which I got schistosomiasis that paralysed me from the waist down. We worship it by eating a goat. I received a message from her that anybody who poos or pisses in Owala will render their sexual bits useless and will die. I am promoting it as a belief amongst my people while I educate those who can learn.

lol

hucknall:
Now who sets the standards?

An intersubjective deliberation and agreement between a group of humans


Continue.

budaatum:
I'd say it is religion actually, that "skips", and "goes right to the conclusion", a conclusion in the form of "God said", in fact.

Invocation of transcendental authority is a belief not a conclusion.

Ascertaining value as intrinsic is implied in the assumption of 'intent' as a requirement for creation.

I'm afraid this doesn't show religious people skip the basis - they really don't.

You are aware, I hope, that we do not leave you, or shall I say, the subject, to form any beliefs they want in their heads right? We taught their parents to believe the desired beliefs, i.e. don't eat human beings, and we are certain they made that a desired belief of their offsprings too. But if perchance we missed them in the desired belief education, I'm certain those we did not miss and who have the desired beliefs will have something to say about eating human beings. And we don't have to invoke a deity or a "fundamental belief" or "skip", since reason should suffice, or imprisonment.

what

Moral conclusions can begin with thought about the subject

Any thought about a subject that instill value or distinction in value is a belief.

and reasoning, as opposed to a belief, and even the conclusion does not need to be something they believe since we can educate them to know if they can be bothered to learn.

Educate to know what, I'm not getting this at all

hucknall:
nah.. It better if you do it.

No. It isn't.

Kay, lemme help you.

Appreciated

Moral -------------------------

standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong.

Do you agree?

Ok. Agreed.

Go on.

NLmember:
Isn't it?

No it isn't.

budaatum:
Do they mean, belief is the fundamental foundation necessary to cultivate a moral conclusion, and atheists don't believe so can't have morals?

Let's do it this way. Morality require a distinction in moral subjects in order to establish a basis for consideration.

Example: Eating a human and eating a chicken.

One is more abhorrable than the other in human moral consideration, and this is because humans believe one to be more special than the other and this is either explicit or implied.

If chickens and humans are held in the same value level, there is absolutely no way humans would abhor killing humans more, they both would either be equally abhorrable or an equal indifference is exerted to both.

This belief is the basis for moral weight.

Another close example is Killing a cow in India and Killing a dog.

Indians believe cows are sacred hence comes with a much bigger moral weight.

So, theists invoke moral value as an intrinsic quality instituted through a transcendent authority - God.

Someone who lacks such belief have no actual reason to say human is more sacred than a cow - You simply think killing humans is wrong because, yeah why not?

Every moral conclusion begins with a basis, a fundamental belief about the subject, secular morality skips this belief and goes right to the conclusion.

If so, all I can say is thankfully, it does not matter what one believes in ones head, the wages of sin is still death. They should show me anyone, atheist or theist, who does not know their action has an opposite and equal reaction

I do not understand this one

hucknall:
Ask yourself what moral is. Then them separate morals from religion and see what left.

I don't understand how this answers my question. My question was intended to make you clarify your point not ask me to do it, I may get quite the contrary result to the one you intended.

So please answer the question.

Why do you think Atheists have no morals and can't have morals?

Shepherd00:
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain, for He shall not hold guiltless any one who takes His name vain.


I had to quote all of you to let you know that your selfconceitedness in that post is noted.

You are secretary general for this Lord God I assume? Yoi keep tab on these supoosed transgressions to its name.

bingbagbo:
»
Genesis 1:6-10 King James Version (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


The earth was surrounded by water, there was no atmosphere and no sky. A careful study of verse 7 reveals that, God separated the waters ( occupying what we call the atmosphere now) in that, He pushed some waters up (first heaven) and the rest down (the oceans) resulting in an empty space (Atmosphere). This means there were two basic water bodies derived from this separation, the one on the land (the ocean) and the other in the first heaven (the sky). God called fishes to inhabit the oceans, fishes of all kind. I am of the belief that, God also filled the waters of heaven with fishes as well, but not visible to the natural eyes. Probably as a storehouse for fish among others, to periodically replenish the fishes in the oceans on earth.

Several fishermen the world over testify about seeing fishes drop from the skies into the ocean, a phenomenon a little different from fish rain. There are fishermen that claim to have seen these fishes released from huge sacks from the skies.

We serve an amazing God

His name is Jesus Christ and at the mention of his name, every knee bows

Lol

LordReed:
Me likey!

Of course you do.

Shepherd00:
Your thoughts, both in print or in your mind shall be clearly visible to you when you die. You shall defend them before your Maker. Whether you believe it or not, it won't matter there.

Don't worry Jonnydon, your self conceitedness is well noted.

Jesus bro! You didn't have to quote the whole thing to make this point which is also rather inconsequential to the post.

NLmember:
Lol

Sometimes you just know some things based on life experiences

And your life experience is an objective paremeter to make a general conclusion.

Is that how it works?

NLmember:
I know atheist men will never marry atheist women except its an arranged marriage or contract marriage but they will never come here to admit it.

You claim to know so many things but can't substantiate any.

How do you do it witha straight face?

VRDroid:
Are you aware that I do not respond to minions?

Look me up, Sir

That would be awfully convenient, don't you think?

budaatum:
It was meant to be "how do you know?"

There is absolutely no evidence to say an atheist is more immoral than a theist, and only ignorance would make anyone say they are. If you check any prison anywhere, in fact, you're more like to find more theist serving term that atheists.

And I am no more moral now that I was as an atheist myself.

I think their arguments can be summarized as

1. An atheist lacks the fundamental foundation necessary to cultivate a moral conclusion.

That is 'belief'

They are just wording it wrong by saying 'atheists can't have morals'

Michellekabod2:
Is that an opinion or fact ?
As an atheist I see marriage as a sacred Union between two souls...to exchange rings with you means YOU and you alone are the one I want to give my heart,body and soul to forever. .so cheating is never an option for me

Marriage is more of a contract.

VRDroid:
You have ignored the most important aspect of the argument, which is:

What did the designers of the Universe expect when it comes to Sexuality?

You know who these designers are?

Was Marriage designed as a Core Program of the Universe or an implantation within the matrix for control?

No other animal gets married, because they are not jealous of who bleeps who.

Wrong. Many animals mate for life. Example: sea horses and penguins.

But Humans being what they are, are not ready to share sex partners for obvious reasons and I agree.

and there is nothing wrong in that, in fact it has a biological correlation

But I strongly think people are free to not marry if they want to fucck around and if you love that pusssy or dick enough, just stick with it until death or divorce.

No one has a gun to their head to marry.

How in the world did you write such a long comment but said nothing related to the premise of the OP?

NLmember:
Not true.

Only a mentally unstable person will support mass murder of innocent people. Bible says love your neighbour as yourself and Quran says he who murders an innocent person will end up in hell.

Not necessarily true.

hucknall:
Atheists have no morals, in fact cannot have morals.

Interesting; Why do you think Atheists have no morals and can't have morals?

I wrote this true story that happened to me on my Facebook wall yesterday.




"Forgive me father for I have sinned" I said in a profound contrite tone displaying the deep seated regret that ran through my soul.

"Speak my son" The whispering clear voice of the priest sipped through the numerous holes that separated us both in the confessioner "What sins have you committed?"

My hands were clasped together beneath my chest tightly in an undying piety for Christ, my eyes misty from the regrets that tore through my conscience.

What have I done?
Why did I do it?
Did the Catechism not warn me early enough?
Now, I have fallen short of the glory of God.
I have sinned and the mercy of God must be attained or my destination is sealed.

I can still vividly remember my sin. It played out freshly in my memory. Kneeling right there before the Priest of Christ, the sacrament of penance, atoning for my abhorrent action.

It was just 4 days ago we got back from the village. The new school year was about to start, so I had to wrap up my village vacation stay with my grand mother.

I always relished the idea of spending my vacations in the village, spending time with my grand mothers, both of which lived in the village but more especially because Papa was not around to put a check on my behavior. I was free to roam around every day, jumping from one tree to another, howling wildly in the bush chasing after bush rats, grasscutters and snakes.

The untamed happiness of a child free from the prying correcting eyes of his Father.

My friends and relatives in the village, boys my age would come to find me as early as 8am, we were off, I just had breakfast, enough energy to get me through the morning, wild fruits and nuts from the bushes we ran around in will do for lunch and then we are off to the forest to burn calories chasing after little Bush meats that ran as if they had something to win - they did have something to win; their lives.

Grandma surely always had dinner waiting.

As Papa came down to the village that weekend to pick me up back to the city, I was being beaten by my conscience, every look from Papa felt as if he could read me as a book, I felt vulnerable, as if he could see right through my eyes every picture of the sin I've committed just a day before.

Papa would disagree strongly. He would be angry.

"You are a Christian boy" He'd say "Your father is strong in the catholic faith. I won't have any of my children dragged to the scotching fires of hell"

Wait, till he finds out what I had just done. It would be as if the fires of hell lurked around somewhere beneath me, God surely will remove my name from the book of life for this one.

I was silent throughout the journey back to the city.

"Don't worry son, I will bring you back after this term is over" Papa said with a tone of concern over my mood. He had imagined I was unhappy to end my holiday.

Oh how wrong he was.

It was the day before Saturday, Friday. I woke to an air of festivity around Agbaeze compound. The fires and aroma of food coming from the kitchens of Mama Nnenna and Mma Oyina were too good to be just an ordinary breakfast which most times were steaming soups warmed from yesterday's leftovers going down with hard cold akpu that scratched your throat as they slid down.

It seemed there was an occasion everyone was preparing for. It is not Christmas, neither is it Easter, so, naturally I was confused on what the occasion was.

Ebuka came down towards my Grandmother's hut, he was munching over a large chunk of chicken lap, this early morning, steam rose from the meat, peppered juices smeared all over his face.

"What is happening?" I asked trying to say that in our local dialect.

"Oduigbo is coming home today!" He happily announced taking a deep bite into the meat.

Oduigbo is a masquerade, managed and fixed by our umunna, our hamlet in Amaowerre Edem of Umulumgbe.

In our town of Umulumgbe much like most part of Igbo land, masquerades had a spiritual significance. There were more than masked men chasing and scaring boys and women as the playful ones are. They were seen as revered spirits of the ancestors, wise and just, ancient warriors with brave deeds to their names; So, their coming were expected, celebrated and comes with a hope of blessings and messages from the land of the ancestors to the adherents of Odinani Igbo.

That was the occasion today.

In our family, my grand father was the first Christian hence his wife and son (Papa) are Christians.

But not everyone in Agbaeze family are Christians, Nnam Ode wasn't - a wise man, physical specimen of the unnatural height that ran in the Agbaeze blood, a good man in every way.

His wives Mama m Oyina and Mama Nnenna the youngest are preparing the meals for today's festivities.

I could see the egusi soup as Mama m Oyina turned it in the pot, there was hardly any water in it, large chunks of meat poking out here and there, I couldn't help but swallow my spit. Other delicacies were also going to be available; Okpa freshly made with new palm oil, roasted yam to go with Ugba, Abacha and Akidi, Agbugbu and achicha and a goat will be killed and devoured right there in the presence of the newly arrived ancestral spirit.

Ebuka had explained, after the cookings are done, the men will go to the Oduigbo shrine with beer, palm wine and canons to signal the arrival of the much awaited spirit, the women will carry all the delicacies prepared to the shrine where everyone will participate in the rituals, eat all the food, drink the wine and take home the blessings from the land of the ancestors.

The women were gathered, clad in uniformed wrappers, their legs adorned in uhie (Red dyes) down to the sole of the feet.

The men headed for the shrine, there was no way I could miss everything I have just seen and heard, I tagged along, asking more questions as we went.

Grandma didn't know where I went to, if she had, she would have threatened to tell Papa.

A little after 5pm, the masqurade arrived, well decorated with new clothe prints, newly painted masks, its large white horns shooting up stupendously, he was a beautiful spirit.

The kolanuts were split and shared, the prayers were said, the rhyming incantations and messages from the masquerade rang out into the air, it bore messages of glad tiding, I thought the tenor voice that sang underneath the clothing decorations were amazing, amplifying echo from the chambered hollow mask.

After the bit, it was time to eat and drink, every food brought to the shrine must be consumed, no one was allowed to deny the other what they wanted to eat. Men chatting and laughing, beer and palmwine trickling down their chins and they greedily washed them down finishing with a roar.

I hesitated. Participating in the consumption of food sacrificed or dedicated to a pagan deity? Oh, that is the end of it.

How many times have Papa warned me about avoiding anything pagan?
How many times did I hear that from the catechism teachers?
The bible? God literally punished the Israelites for such sin.

People enquired why i was not eating, I tried to smile it off, working hard to resist the urge to unwind, join everyone else in their happiness and festivities.

Needles to say, I caved in, dove deep to help myself, the Okpa was out of the world, hardly any dip into the soup came without a chunk of meat in my hand, the akpu, freshly made, soft and oozed in all glory.

This was the first day I drank a beer, no soft drink was anywhere in sight, no one stopped me, Nnam Ode looked at me with an eye of admiration - This was what manhood was about.

For a while, I forgot, I was deep in the joy of it all, flanked left, right and center by my kin's men, eating from wooden plates, occasional solo rhymes coming from the now seated masquerade.

It was peaceful and happy.

But the morning after, all my joy and happiness was replaced with guilt and regret, I had committed a grievous sin before God, i had tainted the temple of the holy spirit with unholy food and drinks in an unholy gathering.

That was the story I feared Papa could see beneath my misty eyes.

Now? I can still remember the inside of the church, my penance of 25 decades of the rosary proscribed by the priest with a stern warning not to commit this sin again, a reminder that the holy spirit do not dwell in unholy bodies.

I can picture myself going to this confession again, I would do and say things differently.

"I am not here to ask for forgiveness Father, I have done nothing. I ate a food dedicated to the Gods of my fathers, the Gods and spirits of my ancestors and I shared moments of joy and peace with my kinsmen, a fellowship much needed in a world marred by hate. I do not regret this Father, I am happy I did, I will do it again. The bible always talked about Gods of the Israeli's forefathers, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, why should I be ashamed of the Gods of my own Fathers? The Gods of Uradogwu, the Gods of Ekweka and Agbaeze? I do not ask for pardon Father, I have not sinned, I only ate from the same plate my ancestors ate from and I am proud of it"

That is how I wished that confession had gone. Now I wish my joy weren't tainted by regret and remorse over a sin that isn't a sin.

I am an African man, an Igbo man, Odinani is part of my identity, I do not have to be a man of belief to appreciate this part of who I am.



John Chukwuemeka Ekwekaanyinya Agbaeze
This isn't fiction. It really happened to me.

Pvssy:
Drink irresponsibly

And see what runs through your mind when you dead drunk.

You will be closer to the realms that you evolve around.

Anas09:
Begin by holding wind with your fist, snap it and post it here, we shall take it from there.

The type of nonsense you guys post here these days is the stuff of weed

Allsingles:
I'm beginning to think that I needs proof that God really exist.
Has anyone felt like me?
I strongly believe that we can all read this, so we can know more about the existence of God.

https://allsinglesandmarried..com/2019/08/do-you-think-god-really-exist.html?m=1

Let me help you with the basics:

There are two types of proof in principle.

Deductive proof
Inductive proof

Deductive proof that types of argument reliant sorely on logic.
Example: Mathematics is deductive in nature.

A = B
B = C

Therefore C = A.

This is a deductive exercise.

Deductive proofs can be employed to pinpoint logical factors responsible for a certain conclusion.

You can through your apparent observations on race in the planet, that colder region seem to have light skinned races with wooly hairs, hotter regions seems to have more swarthier races to deductively postulate that skin color is correlated with climactic conditions.


Inductive proofs are type of proofs that are empirical in nature.

Take the race example I gave above, Inductive approach would include, having isolated tests, delving deeper into racial DNA to conclusively empirically show the correlation between climate and skin color.

So, while you can say that inductive arguments are appeal to empiricism or reduction to the senses, you can say that deductivism is appeal to sorely reason.

To the question of God, you must first understand what God by definition is;

God by definition is transcendental meaning it is of no observational consequence to this space - time.

There is absolutely no one that can provide empirical proof of God, there is no such thing. If you are asking for empirical proof then there can be no such thing since appeal to empricism would contradict God as a definition.

God was postulated in human philosophy through deduction. (Meaning; It is a logical approximation that may or may not be real)

In philosophical connotations "God is a conclusion reached through apperception, that's sorely through reason. It cannot be related to the external senses, cannot be perceived, only conceived, can be defined but not demonstrated"

So, if you are looking for deductive arguments for God, you may look at God as deduced through ontology.

So, in other words, you must first define the type of proof you are seeking in order to proceed.

kolafolabi:
All these things need to be stopped. Let's the Obas emulate the Oba of Iwoland

No. Christianity and Islam needs to be stopped rather.

You people are mad

hakeem4:
so if i am wealthy enough i can pay someone to do my time. While I commit another crime and pay another person and it continues like that. I am of the opinion that if you do the crime you must do the time

I agree

It’s like saying you’d pay someone to swallow your drugs when you’re sick. Of what benefit will it be to you

Technically, there aren't exactly same thing

hakeem4:
well it is a good idea but i want drop an opinion.

let me ask a question why does the country send their citizens to jail? people are sent jail so they can be rehabilitated.

Not necessarily why people are sent to jail.

Here are the major reasons

1. To be punished (ridding one of their fundamental right is the consequence of breaking the rules that binds social contracts).

2. Secure the society: Removing bad eggs from the society directly is consequential to the quality of individuals left and their safety. Isolating criminals (imprisonment) is a way of preventing them from committing said crimes again.[/quote]when in jail they teach them how to be morally right. so imagine if i can pay someone to serve a certain percentage of time in jail then when will i learn how to be a good person.[/quote]But seeing that most prisoners end up getting even more hardened in jail. Isn't that somewhat counterproductive?

LordReed:
Based on how Christians think justice works, I like to propose an alternative justice system. It will decongest prisons and provide new avenues for employment.

Here's how it would work. Any time a person gets convicted for a crime and gets a jail sentence, they can engage a professional prisoner who will take on a portion of that jail sentence. In exchange the person convicted is required to pay to the professional prisoner 10% of their income for the rest of their lives. This income shall be tax free for the professional prisoner. The professional prisoner shall only spend 10% of the sentence time and can serve as many concurrent sentences as he can cram in. Repeat offenders are to go to the houses of their professional prisoner and beg for forgiveness, no further action shall be taken against them. However, should they refuse to beg for forgiveness they shall be immediately executed, the severity of the crime not withstanding. All citizens are advised to engage a professional prisoner just in case, should you be caught in an act that is not illegal but ethically questionable and you have not engaged the services of a professional prisoner, you shall be immediately executed, no appeals.

This would be a wonderful system free of abuse and would lessen crime, don't you think?

CC: budaatum, plaeton, XxSabrinaxX, johnydon22, CAPSLOCKED, JeromeBlack, HappyPagan, frank317, tintingz, michellekabod2, jesusjnr, hakeem4

Someone can hire someone else to do their prison time in China

Ubenedictus:
if I want to throw you off, I'll have to invite you to a tradentine mass.

I'll see how much you love Catholic liturgy

You are talking to someone who was half way to becoming a Catholic Priest Ubenedictus