Ihedinobi3:


I believe I mentioned that I saw your point. The critical difference here is that I don't believe that prophecy ever ignores time. The very nature of prophecy is all about time. What happens with prophetic foreshortening is not that time is ignored but that information about time is deliberately hidden.



As I said, time was not ignored in that example. It was hidden. The prophets knew that and sought to understand what they were not being told. The Lord told them that the prophecies were for believers of the future, not for them. So, again that example does not at all prove that time is ignored in prophecy since it isn't.

It seems you have a problem with words, I used the term ' time ignored' to mean specific times are not mentioned for fulfillment of bible prophecy.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NIV)

As for Jesus's words about the resurrection, I have just shown you that He did not ignore time. He spoke of the resurrection as a concept, it is true, but even in practice, what He said was literally applicable since both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected at the same time at the end of time. So, again, this is not at all proof for your position.

Jesus did mention the duration of his millennium reign, the time of Christ second coming are not revealed to any man.
When Jesus mentioned his second coming he ignored the time duration.
The time duration between the first coming and second coming of Christ was never mentioned,

What do you mean by "revelation is progressive?"

there are things not revealed to one generation but revealed as time progresses.

The Lord did teach that the Resurrection will occur in tranches. You only took one or two instances of that teaching and ignored the rest. These are other things that He said:

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 24:26-31 (NIV)

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-32 (NIV)

These are the two tranches of Resurrection left. The first describes the resurrection of Church Age believers at the Lord's Return. The second describes the resurrection of Millennium Age believers and all unbelievers. This is not something that Paul saw and Christ didn't mention. It was taught by the Lord Himself.

Regarding your claim about Paul's work and its focus on Gentiles to the exclusion of Israel, this is what Paul said:

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Romans 10:12 (NIV)

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Romans 11:13-29 (NIV)

There is more, but I can tell you for sure that I have never seen anything to suggest a spiritual distinction between Gentile believers and Israel. In this passage in Romans 11, Paul was unequivocal in his claim that Gentile believers, rather than becoming some distinct olive tree preferred by God to Israel, have actually only been made part of Israel in a spiritual sense so that we are tied to Israel's spiritual fate now as long as we are believers. So, when you make these differences between Israel and Gentile believers, I not only see nothing of the sort in the Bible, but I also can't understand what you think you mean. Paul's "revelations" were for the whole Church including all Jewish believers.

all these long epistles actually addresses nothing, honestly you show of pride but knows nothing

Jesus never taught a 1000 years duration between a first and second resurrection,

You don't even understand those verses you quoted.
Did you see that Israel will be saved only after the full number of gentiles has being saved. What does that tell you? That the gentiles church must be complete before Israel salvation commences.

Your argument that Paul did not speak of the years of the Tribulation is false. He spoke of that time in 2 Thessalonians 2, a passage that I am aware that you know.

​1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV)

Paul was clearing the air of a false teaching that the day of Christ has come, he simply let the church h know what will happen before the day of Christ comes, ordinarily paul teachings focus on the those things that would have to the gentile church.
Next

If you expect Paul to have mentioned that what he was writing above was the Tribulation and that it would last for seven years, my answer to you would be, "Why?" Did Paul have to write the whole Bible just to make sure that we know that what he was writing of was the same thing that other writers had spoken of? Do we not have enough information in his words to see that he was referring to something covered far more extensively and in far greater detail elsewhere?

If it was important for the gentile church he would have written on it, honestly your rebuttal is shallow.

As I have tried again to show, your argument is very poor. Time is never ignored in prophecy since prophecy is all about time anyway. It may be hidden, but even when it is, those who are seriously listening to the Lord know that it is hidden and they may be led to find out why just as the prophets were. So, your argument has no leg to stand on in that regard.

It is your understanding that is poor
Ask yourself what are we to expect Christ coming or the great tribulation, paul teaches the church to expect Christ coming not the great tribulation.

for the sequence you propose, I see what you are claiming. What I am not seeing is where the Bible says all of that.



[quote]In the bit about rapture being meant for only those who died in Christ, where does the Bible say this? Also, what does it mean to "physically receive Christ as your Lord and Savior"?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I do understand the 7-year gap as the Bible actually teaches it. What I don't see is any biblical proof for your own 7-year gap. Where do you find it in the Bible? Where does the Bible make this claim that Israel and Gentile believers are different organisms?

at bold where did I say such? You dont understand nothing

Where does the Bible say that God suspended the Israel program, as you put it? Where does the Bible say that the Gentile Church (whatever you think that that means) replaced Israel in God's program?

As I said, I know what the 7-year gap is about. The 7-year gap is the seventieth week, just as you said. But much of what you say about it I am yet to see any biblical proof for.

you see why I said your understanding is poor.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

@ bold this is your answer

Note I won't reply any of your quote any more

That is very wicked of that man, how can you do this to the woman you claim you love?

Ihedinobi3:


Hello livingchrist.

I think I see what you are saying, but I don't agree with you.

Do prophecies ignore time? I wouldn't say that exactly although I will admit that there is something that does require an explanation in the attention that prophecies paid to time. Your example about the first and second coming of the Christ is one big reason for this. It is true that Old Testament prophecies did not distinguish them all that well. The device is called prophetic foreshortening. In the Bible, the effect it produces is that two events look like they are immediately following each other or might even be the same.

The reason for this is NOT that prophecy ignores time. I can't agree with you on that. Rather, the reason is that God was providing only the information that He wanted believers to have at that time. So, He kept the two-thousand-year Church Age that was going to intervene between the two Advents a secret or, as it is more commonly called, a mystery to believers until Jesus came and died for us.

You have reinstated what I just said, and besides I said prophecy usually ignores time not everytime.
The over two thousand year church age prophecy was kept from the prophets, you reemphasized what I was saying.

This prophetic foreshortening was then only used to keep believers of that time focused on what mattered the most to them: the coming of the Savior to die for their sins and the eventual redemption of their bodies and the broken world as a result. The Church Age was not to distract them from that hope.

The question arises for you then: why does prophecy ignore time if it does according to you? Do you have any biblical argument to answer that?

I said prophecy ignores time that is not prophetically relevant. I have given you an example, the time duration between the first and second coming of Christ was ignored because of the reason you stated another one is the resurrection, there was no mention of the events that would take place between the first and second resurrection hence one might think they take place at the same time.

The other example you give of Jesus's prophecies about the resurrection is also unacceptable to me. You say that Jesus spoke of them as though they would be happening at the same time, but that they would actually not be. I don't agree with you. From Matthew 25:31-46, there is no confusion. There is a judgment of the righteous and unrighteous that will happen at exactly the same time. This will be preceded by a resurrection of both obviously. So, you are wrong at least to some extent. Then again, Paul says the following:

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 (NIV)

that is, the resurrection will occur in tranches, as you rightly suggested, but there is a resurrection of the righteous that will happen at "the end" as v. 24 above shows. That resurrection is the "gathering of the nations" that precedes the judgment in Matthew 25 referenced above. In Revelation 20:12-15, the judgment being described there is the one of the "goats" spoken of in Matthew 25. They are in view because the immediate context is about the war and victory of Christ over Satan at last. Because of what else we know from these other passages mentioned here and from elsewhere, we know that the Millennial believers were judged just before the unbelievers of all ages were judged.

@ bold that is what op said, now christ didnt mention that the resurrection is going to take place in tranches, what does that tell us? That revelation is progressive. The revelations of apostle paul was concerning the gentiles church not the nation of Israel hence paul spoke of the events of the end time that will affect the Gentile churches. The 7 years of tribulation was not mentioned by paul, so he spoke as if the rapture only, which of cause is also the coming of christ.

, while you do have a point about how the resurrection is spaced out, I don't think your example is appropriate for your argument. The Lord Jesus's words could be taken literally and they would still be true. Even if they were not immediately referencing a time-gap, we still know that that is not the right way to judge the matter of the Tribulation and the resurrection of the Church.

yes my arguement for pretribulation rapture is very valid, the time gap gives credence to the pretribulation rapture. Look at what I am saying.
1The Lord descend into the cosmos from the heaven [third heaven] ------》2the rapture takes place------》3|7 years of israel's tribulation|-----》4-----the Lord judges the enemies of Israel and comes down to reinstablish the kingdom of Israel.
From here you see that Paul's focus was on the gentile church which is, 1 &2, 3&4 does not concern the gentile church but Israel.

yes it would still be true,

Before we discuss what the Bible does, in fact, say about the Tribulation and the Resurrection, I also wonder what biblical evidence you have for your claim that there is a seven-year gap between the rapture and the Second Coming. And I assume that by "rapture" you mean the resurrection of the Church-Age believers, that is, all believers from Adam and Eve until the last one to believe before the return of Jesus Christ. If you mean something else, please explain.

As to what the Bible says, there are so many passages that teach that the resurrection of the Church will occur at the Second Coming that I doubt that presenting them will be an effective argument. So I prefer instead to have you provide what evidence you believe you have and solve the problems associated with your position as you present it.

the rapture is only for those believers who died in Christ meaning all those who physically recieve Christ as the Lord and saviour during the earthly life.
You dont understand the 7 year gap because you dont understand that Israel and the gentiles actually have a different prophetic calender.
Presently God suspended the Israel programme and only allow the gentile church time is ticking very soon God will conclude the gentile church programme and resume the one for Israel.
You have to understand that in the old testament Israel was the one through which God uses to reach out to the whole world but in the new testament when Israel fell away the gentile church replaced Israel, but the gentile church will be removed via the rapture to enable the restoration of Israel and fulfilling their election.

The seven year gap is from the book of Daniel, the 70th week will restore Israel once again and will mark the return of their messiah with this God would have fulfilled is promise to the patriachs, and the prophecy of the prophets.

MaxInDHouse:
The word "Bible" is not written in the Bible meaning it's not a teaching but name given to a collection of little books that makes up a big book, so you can't find the word anywhere in any of the little books.
Born Again means those Christians who are born of water and spirit {John 3:5} their place is not here on earth because they will be taken to the same destination along with Jesus that's why they need a special rebirth before they can go and live in heaven where only spirits lives {John 14:1-4} but the rest of mankind will live in the original place where God design for humans (flesh) to live "earth" {Psalms 37:29; 115:16} that's why Jesus spoke of two different destinations for righteous people:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 5:3

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" Matthew 5:5

Only a handful few will go and live with Jesus in heaven {Luke 12:32} while the rest numbering billions will inherit the earth!

May you have PEACE!

Anyone not born again cannot be in God's kingdom, they will be thrown out into the lake of fire.
Without means those not in God's kingdom.

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So without you are born again you are outside the kingdom of God.

Bishopkingsley:
The rapture refers to the time in the future when Christ will return to the earth and take believers to heaven with Him. Many churches teach that the rapture will happen secretly, referring to it as the “secret rapture.” Books and movies portray pilots vanishing from airline cockpits and drivers disappearing from their cars, leaving us wide-eyed imagining the resulting chaos.

Will the rapture really happen secretly? What does the Bible say? Here are five Bible reasons you won’t have to worry that you’ll blink and miss it.

1. Christ will return to earth in the same way He went up—in plain view. Soon after He was resurrected, Jesus met with a large group of His followers near Jerusalem. This meeting took place out in the open, in plain view of everyone passing by. Suddenly, Jesus’ feet left the ground as He ascended to heaven. As He did, “two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven’ ” (Acts 1:10, 11). The Bible even specifies that “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). Read also Matthew 24:27!

evidence of the rapture will be seen all over the world but the people raptured will not be seen.

2. Christ will return with a shout, an angel voice, and God’s trumpet. The apostle Paul was quite specific in his description of the events of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The rapture being secret would be like sneaking up on someone while banging on pots and pans!

yes Christ will return with a shout, it is this shout that will raise the dead in Christ and of course the rapture is not going to be secret.

. Graves all over the planet will break open at once. Paul continued his inspired picture of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, reporting that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” These believers who have died will break out of their graves simultaneously all around the planet! How many graves would this be? Let’s put it this way: Recently, the BBC published an article titled, “The world is running out of burial space.” Brace yourself for the sound of concrete breaking up all around you!

Everyone going to heaven will go up together. After Christ breaks believers out of their graves, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). That means every believer will rise off the ground and meet Christ in the air together. Among this throng of people, don’t you think there will be shouts of praise and joy? Sounds like it will be hard to miss the sight and sound of it.

yes all Christians would be taken leaving the sinners, but note the rapture is going to take place in a split second there is no way people will see it but the evidence of it would be felt probably a loud thundering sound.

5. The structure of Planet Earth will begin to melt. Peter added his description of the rapture, saying that “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12). Imagine the ear-splitting spectacle of the entire sky crackling with a roaring fire and the stunning visual image of our planet’s infrastructure melting with extreme heat!

No, sir the earth neither heaven will not melt.
Christ will come seven years later and reign on earth with those Christians counted worthy to reign with him for a thousand years! It is only after this that the current heaven and earth would be destroyed leading to the final judgment.

Bishopkingsley:


Funny show me the places in Bible that back it up

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



The dead will meet Jesus in the air, the heaven described here is the third heaven note the word air here means cosmos.
This is the rapture, and different from when he is actually descending to the earth from the sky.

MaxInDHouse:


The word RAPTURE doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible but if you're talking about the taking up of Jesus' brothers (born again Christians) that will surely take place before the great tribulation.
Though the first to be taken to heaven are the born again Christians who has been sleeping in death since Jesus' departure in the first century, the rest of this born again Christians will be taken immediately after their death! 1Thessalonians 4:16

so? The word bible is not in the bible.
If you are not born again you cant be in the kingdom of God, there is nothing like some born again Christian and some not born again Christian in the kingdom of God.

Kingsnairaland:
There is no secret rapture

Ask yourself who is God going to resurrect if there is a secret rapture

The rapture is an open event every one will see that the last day

rapture is not what all eye will see because it is going to take place in a split second in the first place.
Rather it is Jesus coming down that every eye will see.

OkCornel:
@livingchrist, I’ll clarify what I’m after;

This is the first resurrection as Apostle John saw in Revelation.

Revelation 20 v 4-6;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.



Is there a resurrection of the righteous dead preceding this one?

The first resurrection include the rapture.

OkCornel:


Explain with scriptural references please.

Still wondering how the resurrection of the righteous dead is in parts

first of all understand that there is a difference between rapture of Christ coming down to the earth.
For rapture consider this verse
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:[/b]and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note that saints are to be taken up to meet with Jesus in the cosmos or air.

Compare with Jesus coming down after 7 years.

Revelation 19:8, 11, 14 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And [b]the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Note the armies of heaven describe here are saints who have previously be clothed with white sparkling raiment which is their righteousness.

The saints are coming down with Jesus.

When they came with Jesus to earth another resurrection of the righteous which is the second part took place.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note this resurrection is for those that witness for Christ during the tribulation and those who did not take the mark of the beast.

The resurrection that took place before and at the beginning of the millennium make up the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

OkCornel:


Is the rapture also the resurrection of the righteous dead?

the first part of it.

OkCornel:
@livingchrist,

How many resurrections are there in the scriptures?

Is the rapture of the dead also a resurrection?

There are two resurrections, the resurrection of the righteous dead and that of the unrighteous dead.

CharisEleos:
God bless you for this.

One of my pastors ( a very good Bible scholar) once said that some events in the Bible are not recorded in chronological order.
That is why some recent events appear before old ones in the Bible getting some people confused by making them think somethings in the new testament occurred in the past; making some stories not to add up but it's just the arrangement. Though I can't remember some of the bible references he gave that day.

This rapture thing is wildly misinterpreted and misunderstood by so many according to a recent research I did.

May God help us.

yes, it takes patience, the guidance of the Holy spirit and careful study of both the old and new testament to understand biblical prophecies, just reading one or two verses or part and making conclusions base on it usually lead to errors.

Yes there will be a resurrection that will occur, the reason why many do not understand the pretribulation rapture is time, they cannot accept that sometimes in prophecies time is ignored. What do I mean? In the old testament the prophecies concerning Christ first and second coming is spoken as if they will happen at the same time, but actually the two events were separated by thousands of years.

Same with the resurrection

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection is spoken as if the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous will take place at the same time but actually the both resurrection has a time gap between them.
Same with the prophecies of Jesus
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again Jesus spoke as if the resurrection would take place at the same time but they are separated by atleast 1000 years.

First is the resurrection of the righteous which begins at the rapture, and comes to consummation when Jesus comes down to earth, after then the millennium reign of Christ followed by the second resurrection and then the judgment.

I personally I don not separate the rapture from the second coming of Christ only it takes place in stages, first is the rapture and then Christ comes down to the earth, but there is time between the rapture and christ coming down, this time is about 7 years which is the tribulation period.
In summary, prophecies usually ignore time except such time is of prophetic essence such as the 70 weeks of daniel prophecy, of which that seventy weeks is not even completed, it remains one week which is seven days, this is the seven years gap between the rapture and Christ coming down, so that at the end of the seventy weeks Christ would have come down and fulfill all the prophecies written concerning Israel.

obonujoker:


Lol... If pretribulation rapture is correct, can you please explain if a resurrection will occur at the rapture?

Yes there will be a resurrection that will occur, the reason why many do not understand the pretribulation rapture is time, they cannot accept that sometimes in prophecies time is ignored. What do I mean? In the old testament the prophecies concerning Christ first and second coming is spoken as if they will happen at the same time, but actually the two events were separated by thousands of years.

Same with the resurrection

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection is spoken as if the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous will take place at the same time but actually the both resurrection has a time gap between them.
Same with the prophecies of Jesus
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again Jesus spoke as if the resurrection would take place at the same time but they are separated by atleast 1000 years.

First is the resurrection of the righteous which begins at the rapture, and comes to consummation when Jesus comes down to earth, after then the millennium reign of Christ followed by the second resurrection and then the judgment.

I personally I dont separate the rapture from the second coming of Christ only it takes place in stages, first is the rapture and then Christ comes down to the earth, but there is time between the rapture and christ coming down, this time is about 7 years which is the tribulation period.
In summary, prophecies usually ignore time except such time is of prophetic essence such as the 70 weeks of daniel prophecy, of which that seventy weeks is not even completed, it remains one week which is seven days, this is the seven years gap between the rapture and Christ coming down, so that at the end of the seventy weeks Christ would have come down and fulfill all the prophecies written concerning Israel.

MrPRevailer:


The elect are the believers/virgins of Christ who are left behind and will pass through the fire of great tribulation.
Also, there are unbelievers who have been hearing the gospel truth but didn't take it seriously that will repent and determine not to take the mark of the beast.
They are the elects and saints of the great tribulation.

The faithful believers/virgins are the church called to the wedding of the Lamb.

Luke 21:36 "Watch therefore, and pray at all times that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The elect are not left behind christians but the 144,000 jews and other gentiles that would believe in Christ during the tribulation.
Pre tribulation rapture is actually the correct teaching.

Steven prayed to Jesus to receive his spirit.

BassReeves:


I guess you know enough to capably explain in layman terms how exactly will God the Father Himself will be on earth.

Yes because God the father and Jesus will be the temple in the city
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Please write in detail, how God the Father Himself will be on earth.
1. Would God the Father Himself when being on earth be visible to the naked eye?

The father will be seen yes, but incomprehensible, look at it this way, The father is comprehensible, Jesus is comprehensible because he is the word made flesh, the holy Ghost is invisible.

2. What appearance would God the Father be when He is on earth?

He is incomprehensible,

You are right op.
When this unrighteous world is done away with, the heavens and the earth will melt and disappear, followed by the final judgment and the a new heaven and earth would be created by God.
The earth, and particularly the new Jerusalem becomes God's seat of power, from the new Jerusalem he will rule and govern all creations.

Chibuezem:

Heaven is For God, New earth is for man where Jesus Christ is The president General of all nations;our Daddy G.O.He will oversee the affairs of men

God the father himself will be on earth

Op

Utrt

Qhg

Unitarians are a sect who believes that Jesus is the father and the holy spirit.

And heresy is a false teaching, such teachings ultimately lead people away from the faith or establish a false religious system

The bible shot down the Unitarian heresy in many ways some of them are

1. Baptism is done in the name of 3 persons
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2. Hebrews said that Jesus did not glorify himself
Hebrews 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Meaning Jesus was glorified by another person who is the father

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

3. The holy spirit does not speak of himself but of christ.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The holy spirit shall glorify Jesus

John 16:14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

4. Jesus is seen sitting on God's right hand in heaven

Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

5. Phillip saw Jesus standing at God's right hand.

Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


6 .The word was with God in the beginning

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

7. In the book of revelation 3 persons was seen in heaven.
The father who sat on the throne,
The holy spirit who is the seven blazing lamps
And Jesus who came as the lamb.

8. Two other persons of the Godhead came to Jesus making it three persons.
1 the father which was the voice
2. The holy ghost who came as a dove
3 Jesus who was being baptised.

9. Jesus said there are two persons that testify of him, the father and himself.

John 8:17-18 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

The bible said Jesus fulfilled the law not break it and in that same law only the testimony of two witnesses can be accepted, so for Jesus to fulfill this law there must be another individual different from Jesus to testify of Jesus, again, Jesus does not accept human testimony.

9. There were three persons that testify of Jesus.
1. Jesus and the father during his ministry
2. The holy spirit after Jesus had left.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Well better than killing your baby through abortion.
I pray you find good hearted individuals to adopt your baby.

If this man had obeyed God this would not have happened.
Psalm 91 are for people who dwell under the protection of his word which is obedience to his word.

Splinz:




Jerusalem is what here? A mother. And the mother is what? Jerusalem: one and the same thing; a location on earth. Paul simply used the word "mother" to figuratively described another figurative phrase, "Jerusalem above". All figurative.

Having tested the depth of your knowledge, as one who went as far as creating a thread to teach those that are supposedly wrong, I've realized that you have almost zero knowledge of what you ironically seek to teach others. You know, one was hoping that with your threads littered everywhere on this section, of course, useless threads, the least expected of you is at least to know the basics. But alas, you're even worst than those you seek to teach.

Here's an advice for you. If you have any shred of integrity and honor, apologize to JWs for the unprovoked and unwarranted attack.

Living Christ indeed.

Typical of false witnesses, when they are exposed they slither away avoiding issues going by your dense logic
Jehovah is figurative because he is figuratively described as a rock.

You have proven to be a liar

You have being trying to twist my words.

you have still not showed where I said Jerusalem above is figurative. Why is it hard for you?

Jerusalem that is from above is taking literally while mother of us all is taking figuratively

same way God is upright is taking literally and God is a rock is taking figuratively.

Psalms 92:15
To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

watch how spliz avoid this,

Splinz:
I'd make it simple for you:

Since those phrases are not figurative, why are you changing the phrase "mother of us all" into a literal meaning so-called "where we all belong"? You said they are not figurative, so why the change to a literal meaning?

You have being trying to twist my words.

you have still not showed where I said Jerusalem above is figurative. Why is it hard for you?

Jerusalem that is from above is taking literally while mother of us all is taking figuratively

same way God is upright is taking literally and God is a rock is taking figuratively.

Psalms 92:15
To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Splinz:

How does what is up here of any correlation with the confusion you have down?

You see, it's a great confusion.

you think mixing my words with yours will help you.
Kindly show where I said that heavenly Jerusalem that is above is figurative.
On the other hand you are the one that said both Jerusalem that is above and mother of all are figurative.
Confused splinz.

Ythk

Jaw

Iut