₦airaland Forum

Workch:
no, you see. You still dont get my argument.

I am a weak agnostic. I don't have any knowledge of existence if a god so I don't believe or disbelieve it. I think we do not have sufficient knowledge to know if a god exist or not hence deists, atheists and theists do not know what they are talking about.

Ah ok. I thought you were taking a deistic stance.

MayntheeMayn:
I want you to look at this. It is a Calvanist concept.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/philosophy/philosophy-terms-and-concepts/deists

Interesting.

Workch:
If we found a new planet and we are not sure what this planet is made of yet and I make a claim that this planet can Harbour life. Of course it's a baseless claim and that's what theism does.
Epsitemologically, the individual that made the claim has the burden of proof to prove it but scientifically, the person who made the claim does not necessarily need to find evidence to validate the claim. If you think that the claim is not correct, in science, you will go out and find evidence against it else the argument is still very open.

LoLz. I have never seen where a scientist says I am going to go find evidence against a baseless claim. Find me which scientist is doing this.

Workch:
if you don't disbelieve the existence of all god then you do not qualify as an atheist.
Atheists disbelieve all gods without evidence against all gods.

Wrong. Atheists do not disbelieve, they don't believe. There is a difference.

Workch:
I'm not the one giving, deist gave it that attribute. I cannot disprove it, neither can you.
If you cannot disprove a claim with evidence then how is it baseless? if you do not have counter evidence, then don't you think that you are baselessly rejecting the claim?

I thought you are an agnostic deist.

Workch:
Where did i give god attributes?
Deist say that their God does not intervene, it's an attribute. You will easily verify this if you can find how everything started but we cannot. We are incapable of doing that, at least for now

Yes that is an attribute you are giving the god BEFORE you have evidence, so it is indeed baseless.

Workch:
Because you asserted that a god might exist so you do not outrightly disbelieve it.

Where in your description does it mention disbelief?

Workch:
nope, theists are like the people who try to describe an alien that they don't know exist.

For me, i dont know if aliens exist or not and I don't believe or believe it. If it does exist, I don't know the nature of it and I even think that we may never know it it exist or not and it doesn't play any significant role in my life. That's scientific.

Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes/disbelieves that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe/disbelieve. It is why atheism is not scientific

You didn't answer the question: how does your description of who an atheist is not apply to me?

Where have I said I disbelieve? You're just making unfounded assumptions, that is what is not scientific.

Workch:
The claim is not baseless, it would be baseless if you know how the singularity that expanded into our current universe got there.
If you do not have answer for this, then the claim is one of the hypotheses that needs to be falsified, especially the deistic claim.

An hypothesis is never baseless until it has been falsified. A deistic concept of god is yet to be falsified unlike what you have in Christianity.

It is is baseless if you are giving attributes to the god. If you are simply saying there could be a god then it would be different. You are giving the god attributes BEFORE you have any evidence.

HisSplendor:
Yeah, it's found outside my head in His own world. He has the right to live in His own world. Doesn't He?

Where is that world? How do you reach that world?

Workch:
Let me allow you understand my argument better.

My stance with respect to the existence of God has to do with evidence for or against any concept of God hence if we have a God claim, before you can outrightly validate or dismiss that God, you need an evidence for or against that claim. This is basically how science works.
Now, the Christian God for example can be easily dismissed by scientific methods, in essence, we have evidence against the Christian concept of God, which is why I reject it. But we do not have evidence against a deistic concept of god, it's why I cannot outrightly reject or accept it.

Deist and atheists are those who are on the opposing ends of this argument. Deists are suppose to provide evidence for, atheists are suppose to provide evidence against but none of them have evidence.

Why do you think science is agnostic? It's because science cannot produce evidence for or against a deistic god.

You are making a baseless claim and asking me to provide evidence against what is already a baseless claim.

HisSplendor:
He lives in a different realm. Not here. Those who dug far enough here found. He doesn't live in their heads. They found. I dug too. I found. You too should dig. You'll find. That's all.

Where is the god then? If it is not in your head then it should be available to be found outside your head.

Workch:
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of any God.

That's the point, you do not have to believe in the existence or not of aliens. You just have to wait for evidence for to against it to come. This also applies to the concept of a god that you cannot substantiate or invalidate with evidence like a deistic god.

Good so how does that label not apply to me?

Exactly. You go a step further though and instead of waiting for evidence you are giving the god attributes. You are like a person claiming that aliens are tall and have blue eyes before seeing any evidence to that claim.

HisSplendor:
Absolutely incorrect.

You've not been digging for thousands of years, have you? We're talking of individual digging. Stop relying on others for your finds. Talk for yourself.

I am absolutely correct. No god can be pointed out by anyone, it is all beliefs held in the mind. I don't need to have been individually digging for thousands of years, the collectively knowledge of humans has been passed down in one form or the other. Whether you like it or not we are standing on the achievements and failures of those who came before us and one glaring failure is that the gods have all remained in the heads of those who believe.

Workch:
So if you do not disbelieve that a god might exist and you don't believe it either, then how are you an atheist?
Agnostic atheists usually don't believe in any god but they still do not know if it exist or not.

If you don't know if aliens exist, then do you believe it does it not?

Who is an atheist?

Why do I need to believe in the existence or not of aliens?

Workch:
tyou don't have to believe gravity, it is accepted as fact because it's demonstrable.

What you would have said is that "you do not accept the existence of a god because of lack of evidence".

Nope. I don't know if a god does exist. All the human proposed gods have no evidence however there might be gods we have not conceived of.

Workch:
one what ground do you disbelieve the existence of at least one God?

Do you believe that aliens exist or not?

I don't disbelieve that a god might exist.

I don't know if aliens exist.

Workch:
Okay, answer the question.
As an atheist, do you agree that a creator exist or not?

I don't know if a creator exists or not. I have no evidence to sway me towards believing in such a thing.

Workch:
I agree with you that it's groundless, but it doesn't mean that you will assert that it doesn't exist.

There's an aspect of agnosticism called apathetic Agnosticism: they are of the opinion that the existence of God is unknown or unknowable or both and that even if God exist, it's immaterial and God may not even be interested in creating anything. To them, it's immaterial, I think I agree with them.
There's also apathetic deism, they think God exist but as he exist, it's immaterial because he cannot directly influence anything.

If you say you don't know and the it's ends there, you are an agnostic.
If you say you don't know and then says it does not exist, then you re are atheist. You are wrong, you cannot say it doesn't exist when you actually do not know.

Where have I said a god does not exist? I do not believe in any god I didn't say a god does not exist. I am an agnostic atheist so it is you who is wrong in making assumptions about what I think.

Workch:
no one is even proposing anything, not even the scientists but atheists assume that the universe and everything started on its own since they don't believe in a creator.
That's wrong because no one knows for sure

Again that is not correct since atheism DOES NOT address the issue. What any atheist assumes about the origins of the universe is a personally held assumption and not a feature of atheism so you cannot say "atheists assume that the universe and everything started on its own since they don't believe in a creator".

Workch:
Does it mean that because you are incapable of finding something, so that thing does not exist?

The subject matter is not about whether we can find it, the issue here is irrespective of whether we can find it or not, does it mean that it does or does not exist. If something is becoming difficult for you to grasp, just say that "you don't know" and let it end there.

The existence of a creator is a big conundrum even for science, science thinks that it's impossible to know. Because when you find a creator, you have to find infinite amount of creators or find how that creator created itself. Just say that you don't know.

No but what it means is it's groundless, in my view, to construct an identity around what is essentially baseless speculation. Yes say you don't know and end it instead of inserting an imaginary character and imbue it with attributes.

Workch:
I don't know, but generally deist agree that this god does not interfere in the proceedings on the universe. I think it's characterisric is unknown. They also argue from ignorance just like atheists: they argue that universe cannot start itself, the opposite of what atheists propose.

Atheists are not proposing anything about the start of the universe, get that straight.

HisSplendor:
You need to read me again. I never said everything around you is a figment of your imagination. Your phone reference is irrelevant. I said everything around you started as a figment of someone's imagination.

Every dig has its rules. There's a mental side to all digs. There's the faith and hope side.
You Never know what lies under. Digging leads to a destination to prove or disprove. Until you dig, you cannot prove anything. You cannot conclude anything.

Sure they started there but didn't remain there because there was a way to make them real. We are yet to see any real god. All gods remain mental constructs even after thousands of years of digging deep.

Workch:
13billion of big bang doesn't tell how everything started, it only explains how our current perception of reality with respect to spacetime started expanding from singularity.
The appearance of singularity which was an infinite dense matter that contained everything that is in the universe today cannot be explained by science. Science does not know, atheists don't know, nobody knows.

Deists, atheists and theists are just rationalizing their own personal opinions, they don't know anything.

That is not the issue. Anybody is free to speculate however when it comes to the likelihood of finding evidence that is when that gap begins to be significant. If aliens or wormholes exist, they exist within parameter we can find.

FRANCISTOWN:
Same person, two monikers. It's allowed

Huh? You think I am Maynman?

MayntheeMayn:
New research says the age of the universe is twice as what we knew before.

Really? I haven't seen that.

HisSplendor:
Every find started that way. A figment of the imagination plus red hot curiosity is all that's needed to prove and disprove things. Everything existing around us today started from the figment of someone's imagination. Imagination itself is a trigger point. It's not a destination.

Nope. The device you are using is not a figment of your imagination, it is real and tangible. Your so called searching and digging is not at any tangible location or for a tangible person. Your digging deep is purely a mental exercise and its results are purely mental.

HisSplendor:
Theism is not flawed. It's only flawed for those who refuse to dig deeper. You can't scratch a surface and reach conclusions on what lies in the depth beneath. Theism involves digging but many don't dig enough. If you dig enough, you'll find.

Find what? If what you are finding is merely a figment of your imagination with no tangibility then what is the point? Might as well enjoy JRR Tolkien or Frank Herbert and call it a day.

Workch:
The origin of the universe that we may never is the basis upon which some agnostic reach the conclusion that we may never know if a creator or God exist.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Because you cannot know if it exist doesn't mean that it doesn't ot it knows.
We may also never know if a wormhole or aliens exist because of how vast the universe is.

Except you seem not to be taking into consideration that there is a massive gulf between those 2 categories. A 13billion year gulf.

Workch:
There's also no clear path to procuring evidence that the everything started on its own.

The chances that universe started on its own and it didn't is still 50:50. So why in a haste to reach a conclusion that something which could be what deist refer as a creator started it?

It chance that aliens exist is still also 50:50. Only evidence can sway this balance.

You are shifting goal posts. You asked about aliens and wormholes. Besides you shifted the goalpost to the worst thing you could have selected. The origins of the universe is probably something we will never be certain about since it occurred billions of years ago. If that is where you are locating your god then it is as good as useless since it not something we can know so why bother.

fineboynl:
Since I started reducing beer intake which used to be everyday. I started getting obsessed with hollandia yoghurt.

Like every hours I rush to fridges to get a drink. End up drinking like two 1L everyday that's if I don't go anywhere.

Does dairy yoghurt has nicotine?

It has sugar which is also addictive.

Workch:
does this information also apply to aliens and warmholes?

The difference being these are things that can have a clear path to procuring evidence for them, not so for a deistic god.