₦airaland Forum

lexib: Sharrap there! These r d type dat fail exams
anyhow... u don come for Nairaland dey ginger...
go n release all dat stuff in a wardround let's c
how much u know... Nonsense!

Refute these or keep quiet.
I am a college dropout .....fine
Failed the MB exams but got to O&G posting......fine
I failed JAMB ........fine
I don't have time for mediocrities, we learn everyday and I won't descend to your level of reasoning because it won't add to my knowledge.
So if there is nothing you might wanna add to the discussion then I advice you kindly back out. Thanks.

phantom: my brother I don't like arguing with someone who DELIBERATELY decides to MISS MY POINT...
look as a doctor, I don't rely on the lab work for my diagnoses. I already have one before I send for CONFIRMATORY lab work.
if I am in a rural area with out a lab or radiological center,I can go ahead and treat my patients based on clinical findings.
if you can't understand this then I can't help you.i dont have the time to draw pictures for you.no need going round and round in circles.

You don't want to get sued for that clinical findings, using it alone to diagnose. Rurall centres has limits. Do you know and read about Nigerian referral system?
Working without Lab work is an archaic way of practicing medicine, it has been revolutionarised to evidence based medicine.
Doctors who knows their onion don't practice like these, even rural populace has started requesting for test to find out what is wrong with them.

phantom: ......
oga the person in my illustration is male.
secondly it presents mainly with pruritis.jaundice is uncommon.
of course there is a need for all those tests you mentioned.
but my point is that if a pregnant lady presents to me with intense itching and NO jaundice after 25wks,then ICP is my likely diagnosis which is made first ,THEN I SEND HER FOR LABWORK TO CONFIRM MY DIAGNOSIS.
so even before lab work,I have a working diagnosis.

Who says jaundice is uncommon in obstetrics cholestasis and that it occurs only after 25 weeks of gestation,it can occur anytime during pregnancy. Please update your textbooks. And even if your patient is either male or female, you will have a list of differential diagnosis that you have to rule out.
Not all jaundice with itching is post hepatic. WHAT ABOUT BRIC- benign recurrent intrahepatic cholestasis.

phantom: .........lab scientist........ itching in a patient with jaundice is most likely post hepatic. I don't need your bilurubin levels to distinguish......its not magic.its just my training.
if I don't see the bilirubin levels expected in post hepatic jaundice, then I will query your result.
dont make comments when you shouldn't.

Intrahepatic Cholestasis of pregnancy presents with icterus and intense pruritus. So there is need for the bilirubin level both conjugated and unconjugated, serum alanine and aspartate , and all the works.
Don't start doing trial and error because you think you can do it alone or to assert your authority.

FG begging as Fashola begged before he striked. Coming from NMA kith and kin it seem FG is not going to shift ground.
I think they better get back to work and save face then give FG time for dialogue.

Enough of this already.

Samgreguc: what do u think the word consult mean? To own?
Please, venture into research and the history of that word and when you are done endeavour to appologise to that word for calling it(consult) another thing.
.
.

To Nigerian physicians it means owning.

Yeah, it is really heating up. Patiently waiting for NMA and JOHESU calvary.
With a deep sense of unhappiness, it has been days of fun .........I mean that ironically knowing how our health professionals work in our various hospitals to take care of Nigerians. Such bitterness. Why won't our mortality rate be higher than the rest of Africa and the world in general.

phantom: very funny. because you ve seen a Nigerian who is asking the right questions. you people are lucky we are in Nigeria,a country with dull leaders and dull people.a country where insane things are given consideration. its a pity really

The right questions from NMA and JOHESU perspectives has been over flogged without making any headway. Now is time to view it from a more neutral perspective.
All these hullabo is for you health professionals, there is no end to these bickering in sight....and must there always be insult and demeaning-laced word in comments before passing across views and opinions.
You've been calling for privatisation as the rest of us but
the main top gainers are coming, watching and waiting like hawks, calculating when to strike, people who don't even know the different between thermometer and stethoscope.....who only cares when their purse is lined with currencies, who always and often look out for cheaper alternatives and except you are working with the few physician- owned hospital that will stand when privatisation happen to take place in health sector,you will be frustrated like the rest. Ask doctors that are working in private hospital their job satisfaction.

ACM10: FP please! Let the debate continue

Debate indeed, if this is called a debate then I bow out.
Debate are built on facts, empirical evidence, critical reasoning, thinking and logic but these NMA and JOHESU brouhaha is lacking the vital characteristics instead it has excess of sentiments, semantics, derogatory remarks and name calling.
I'd rather debate on strategies that will get Nigerian health indices above other countries in Africa than this.

anselm791: it doesn't matter, as long as solid points are being raised.
Lets just say it as it is, "doctors are more important than other health workers", shikena! Can NMA now call off the strike?

As you see it not as it is.
So long, please.

dalhat14: it would be incoherent to you because u would have to be vast in the field of medicine to understand it's intricacies, which at the risk of sounding immodest I would have to say it cant be incoherent to a doctor

I don't need a medical degree to understand...comprehend what health care interdisciplinary teamwork mean.
You don't understand it at all, healthcare service do not start and end with medicine.

NMA perspective again.
Haven't seen a writeup here that doesn't smell of NMA, and JOHESU handwork.

dalhat14: has anyone tied you to his apron right now that is currently impeding your independence? does any doctor tell the lab scientist how to carry out his tests? or he now wants to clerk patients, make diagnosis and decide which tests to carry out? does the physiotherapist get instructions on how do mobilise a patient after surgery, all he gets is a request, no doctor lords on a nurse instructing them on nursing procedures? everyone knows his/her job, do pharmacists needs doctors to lord over them to do their work or do they want to start clerking patients and prescribing for the patients, maybe u should tell us what exactly u want to do with an independence u so much crave, with a title toga - consultant, and by the way, doctors aren't "consultant title" crazy, it can go by any name, as long as I've been certified as a fellow of the college

Your writeup is incoherent ..........and quite different from what is happening presently. Do some research or ask your superiors.
The word independent professional decision is really driving you over the edge.
Don't quote me again to ramble.

dalhat14: This kind of statement is the very reason the NMA is against the toga consultant being used, so the lab scientist, and pharmacists wants to take "INDEPENDENT" interdisciplinary decisions, this is what the NMA foresees happening, u very well know that's not what they are trained to do, when the lab man and pharmacist now has the license to independently treat patients, that's an invitation for chaos and the patient who should be our primary concern would be the worse hit, as it is now, there is an "array of professionals from various disciplines" that take decisions that ultimately lead to the patients well being, and they all use their "area of expertise as a foot stool for proper management and return the to optimum health" You do not need an ego driven toga "consultant" to do this. mind u, this doesn't mean u can't rise to the peak of your profession

Your understanding of my little writeup is very shallow.
Independent , interdisciplinary, professional are words that are not difficult to understand.
Independent decisions and input of a distinct professional who collaborate and work in an interdisciplinary team towards achieving a improved health for patients.
If NMA believe that he can make decision unbehalf of the nurse, pharmacist, scientists and physiotherapist in carrying out their independent duties to ensure the wellbeing of the patient, then they need serious evaluation of their priorities.
You also don't need consultant title to do yours, how about the attending doctor as in US.

dalhat14: if the quality, qualification, and competence of the person (consultant) whom u would expect to take decisions that affects ur illness isn't of any interest to the common man when he seeks for health care, then I don't know what is

Don't you also think that the patient will be more fulfilled and interested when he becomes aware that the care he is receiving is being rendered by an array of professionals from various disciplines whom also through improved qualifications, skills, competence, and experience had been conferred with the title of consultant by their employer to make independent interdisciplinarity decisions concerning his health using his/her area of expertise as a foot stool for proper management and return of the patient to optimum health.

This is not court of public opinion rather it is NMA opinion poll. As usual, you've stated your most pressing of all the 24 ultimatums given to FG.
So which one among them will even make the common man interested ?
Wonder what it will feel like working in such an environment with team workers in factions. Must be very suffocating and grossly unsatisfactory.

eaglechild: Dude
Really

To get something on a platter simply means to get something very easily without having to work for it, it doesn't have to be money, that is simple English.


On the accelerated medical program it is widely available, however it is a bit more stressful as you can imagine and I brought it up to disprove your "intelligent Nigerian guy" theory.


The American can as well do his specialist training in 10 years but is that the average?

Now ,you're diverting. Explaining what platter means is not really necessary and in the context it was used... it was self explanatory.
Intelligent guy concept is used as a result of the fact that anybody going in for medicine is automatically presumed to be super intelligent....as ascertained from nairaland comments....so admitting that failure helped in adding years to his training is unacceptable.
The average is on the internet...can't copy and paste.

micseyi: Chai! Eeya. U must have been withdrawn from med Sch or u scored very low in Jamb or you failed ur O-level; or which now. Well i pity u sha. if u fall sick by d way, make sure u see ur fellow nurse and don't ever go to see a doc, if nt shame on u.

Please, these thread is above you.

eaglechild: Now you are shifting to cost of fees.

I thought we were arguing about length of training.


Meanwhile, you conveniently skipped the accelerated medical program that cuts med school training to 6 years in the US.
Add 4 years residency and that is 10 years an impossibility in Nigeria.

You shifted first by commenting how it may seem that you get your education on a platter.
The accelerated training is yet to be embraced fully, it was prompted by the complaints that most applicant don't need 4 year undergraduate degree before coming in for medicine and also there is a gross shortage of doctors which needs to be remedied urgently.
6 years is in line with what is obtainable in Commonwealth countries....and 4 years is for the least residency...family medicine.
Soon, Nigerian will shift ground.....our health statistics is an eyesore for the giant of Africa. So it is not absolute.

eaglechild: Thank you but I have debunked the lie you tried to sell.

Specialist training from med school to becoming a consultant takes similar to longer time in Nigeria compared to the US.


No need trying to make it seem Nigerian doctors get it on a platter.

Lie....which one If I may ask.
Medical education in Nigerian is gotten on a platter of gold compared to US.
how much is your school fees from year one till graduation ? How much loan do you accumulate before graduation....is it up to $200,000-$450,000.
Resident doctors in US are never up in arms against their training institutions and government but reverse is the case here.
At this point, I think it is imperative to rest my comment on this.

eaglechild: Lool!
Are you devoid of reasoning analytically?

We are talking about averages(time of training) here aren't we?
And I factored in exams which are compulsory and gave you pass rates.

Now you start telling me about "intelligent guys" as if a senior registrar who has passed through med school and part 1 is dull, yet the pass rate of part 2 is 20%.

Well then, yours is a sympathetic reasoning laced with typical Nigerian student blamed game.
Are you saying that the number of years seen on the websites of these institutions are false?
Yea....We are talking about averages here not factor with all things being equal (normal circumstances).....that is what I emphasized on in my original post.
When you fail an exam and your training is extended, that is your own factor.

eaglechild: Why did you scratch youth service, is it not compulsory prior to residency training?
Why will I not add Nigerian factor are we not in Nigeria?

If you have any clue as to the prerequisites for qualification of residency examinations then you will understand that certain subspecialties like Neurosurgery, ENT etc take an average of 7 years.

The pass rate of 2nd MB exam in UNN for eg is about 35%

The pass rate of 3rd MB exam is about 40%

The pass rate of 4th and 5th MB exam is 40 to 60%

The pass rate of primaries is 0 to 30%

The pass rate of part 1 is 25%

The pass rate of part 2 is 0-20%

Failure is equivalent to an extra year for medical school exams and an extra 6 months for postgraduate exams, so YES failure of exams is a HUGE factor.

NOOOO I mean No. I am talking about those intelligent guys who went tthrough medical school and residency and came out at the scheduled time in Nigeria.
Every course has its failure rate, so admitting failure here isn't good. Just get the run down of how things are supposed to be and leave the failure part.
Neuro is 7 years which averaged to 14 years.
So it will take a Nigerian brilliant child like 14 years to be a neurosurgeon in Nigeria while it take their US COUNTERPART 15-16 years.
Coming back.

phantom: they might be sued as stand alone practitioners BUT in the public health system,the doctor answers for the rest of them when sh**t hits the fan.

Somebody please get a lawyer to educate Dr phantom...............what the f****k. Although this can occur when others are accessory before or after the fact while doctors are the main culprit or vice versa.
Lay your hand on some medical ethics , jurisprudence and the rest of them textbook and brush up.....heck get some studded education and enlighten on what is happening in the living world not Nigerian dead health system.
With these mindset, no wonder every Harry Dick and Tom in medical school believe others are under them.
Even in Nigeria, nurses get sued like crazy and most of the news don't make the headline.

eaglechild: 6-7 years med school
1 year housemanship
1 year youth service
4-8 years residency
6-1 year post residency before confirmation.
That is roughly 16 years on the average if you do not fail any exams, but can get to 20-22 years if not so lucky.

This is Nigerian factor .........and adding failure of an exam up there isn't putting you in good light.
Your curriculum says
6 years of medical school
1 year housemanship
4-6years of residency
others also attend NYSC so it is not exclusive only for doctors, waiting for 6 years before confirmation is African mediocrity. Roughly 13 years.....I must say.

phantom: of course the others have their professional license.what has that got to do with anything?

What exactly are you arguing about ? That when these guys make mistake doctor will get sued?
Are they practising medicine for the doctor to be sued?
When a nurse , pharmacists and the rest commits any form of malpractice or an act of negligence when carrying out their duties.....they are sued based on that and their license most times are revoked.
Check out the instances where they are sued on the WWW.

DrObum: You're wrong dear.
12 years in training in the USA is inclusive of specialist training in some fields. 6 years in training in Nigeria is just basic medical training, specialist training adds it up to almost the same as that of USA.
Don't embellish facts to make a point!

In US,
4 years of undergrad
4 years of medical school
3-7 years of residency
3 years of fellowship in subspecialty
that is roughly 15 years on the average in a system where things work perfectly.

phantom: then by all means produce a link

Check 2013 or recent bureau of labour statistics of United states website on Registered Nurse salary( with BSN degree) and nurse practitioners ( these are the ones with masters and DNP degree). Can't copy and paste with my device.

Dio1: There really aren't specialist nurses in nigerian teaching hospitals , so your point is baseless, nigerian nurses and their johesu cohorts are not interested in specialization… they're more concerned about salary

There aren't what.....please check out the advert placement of nurses in Nigerian hospitals.

thegeneral84: Entry level health professionals in USA are not fresh university graduates. Entry level nurses in USA are masters degree holders. Entry level pharmacists are Pharm D holders. Also in the USA, most pharmacists do a postgraduate "residency" before they are awarded Pharm D and can now become "entry level" (very few universities do the undergraduate PharmD and those schools are even querried about the adequacy of an undergraduate Pharm D compared to the majority postgraduate Pharm D). would our Pharmacists here want to do a postgrad residency and be subjected to the same temporary appointment stuff resident doctors are experiencing? I think not. They rather tried to institute the undergraduate Pharm D (which is being criticised in the originating country, USA). So you see entry level in USA health system are not fresh graduates. But our NURSES, pharms, etc in Nigeria always fail to mention that allowing the uninformed masses assume that the salaries posted about USA are those of "fresh graduates". In simple terms, in the USA health system all entry level workers are people with postgraduate fellowships in their respective colleges

We have access to internet and we know the entry level qualification for different health profession too, but you are soo wrong about that of nurses.