₦airaland Forum

Dnaz: why do we like to copy copy in dis country. did all dese johesu ppl copy from medical students to pass in skul?

You copy good things and improve on it but it seems Physicians have been trying to subdue others without improving on theirs. It is really pathetic to see them stooping so low to stay on top. You must be a damn good team leader to continue being on top.
I am foreseeing a grand overtake by this JOHESU in no distant time.

DebateNigeria: Link please. We do details here and facts. Once I am convinced I add to my knowledge and rest my case...

Btw, I am not talking about nurses, I am talking about entry level nurse.
Any nurse in the house, please clarify, I guess staff nurse is the same as auxiliary nurse. If that's the case, that means the are still auxiliary nurses in the USA. How come they are not recognized and given the proper training in Nigeria.

I think you should stay back a little and study the workers you are talking about,their training, job descriptions and all what not before coming in for this. These post shows you're more conversant with doctors cadre than other health workers.
Staff nurses are nurses with single qualification according to Nigerian nurses scheme of service while axulliary are health attendants trained by physician to cut cost. US system has been modified a long time ago with each cadre of nurse assistants having designated formal training and duties months of training ranges from 6months to 12 months for CNAs and LPNs respectively...while RNs have associate and bachelors degree cadre. Associate degree is being fade out for more structured BSN.
The substandard training of nursing assistant in Nigeria is majorly spearheaded by Nigerian doctors even Dr Obembe the recent NMA president.
Poor regulatory body another main factor.

n , Registered Nurses,
on the Internet at http: //www .bls .gov/ooh /healthcare/registered -nurses. htm ( visited July
12 , 2014 ) can't copy with my phone but that is bureau of labour statistics website recent salary analysis for RN's. . Entry qualification- associate degree.
Experience - nil. Check out the residents salary depending on the hospital recruiting eg John Hopkins hospital for PGY1- PGY4 salary.

DebateNigeria: The op is very correct. He was not comparing entry doctors to entry level nurse. Now entry level nurse earn between $30,000 to $45,000 a year as compared to the about $80,000 posted by the op (what specialist nurse earn per year). This link will help you http://www.medical-careers-guide.com/nursing-salaries.html
Now resident doctors still earn more than entry level nurse in the USA between $41,000 to $62,000, it could be more

Bureau of labour statistics stated otherwise quoting median nurses salary at $67,000. , Registered Nurses,
on the Internet at http: //www .bls .gov/ooh /healthcare/registered -nurses. htm ( visited July
12 , 2014 )

silentdon: What? Are you for real? Not fully qualified until you do residency?

Family and social medicine is a specialty, but you only need an MBBS nd a licence to practice.

Ignorance is a disease of the mind.

I think you are the one who is ignorant here. Family medicine residency is three years in including internship.
The post you quoted is referring to US. You are not fully qualified to practice medicine until you do residency and family medicine is one or if not only the least in number of years.

sainty2k3: That is not true,

It is , I am afraid.

magnusalbertus: supported. .privatisation is d solution. I wonder wat a consultant nurse will do differently from other nurses.

And you think that non-specialist doctors will get a job. It goes both ways.

This is desperation at its peak. I felt ashamed reading this.

@ Prettyprettywow, that is a brilliant analysis as it is.
SDN where their rants makes me feel pity for them, that by the time they will start enjoying, their mate in other discipline are preparing for retirement...while they will be weighed down by student loans.
There is no big boy here or chance for truancy....

phantom: yoga the laws of demand and supply will still take effect.privatization will pay more to who brings more to the table. specialist doctors WILL still be the highest paid.

Like the word specialist...... how many of Nigerian doctors are specialist practicing in Nigeria?
Big corporation likes profits, when doctors start asking for exorbitant salaries....they will start looking for cheaper alternatives.

Eratosthenes: At the heart of the crisis plaguing the healthcare sector are corruption and mediocrity. In my own opinion, the government is the mastermind of the crisis. Once the health sector is grounded, the will advance privatization as the only way out of the impasse. Then only the corrupt political class will benefit. The doctors and the health professionals will suffer retrenchment and harsh working environment. The poor masses will lose out because some political thieves will disappear with the nhis funds..... So the doctors and the health professionals should prevent themselves from being used as pawns....

Exactly, the only winners in these privatisation game will be ....
the lawyers that will draw out work schedule,terms of contract etc and also sue their assess off when there is any proof of gross negligence and malpractice or organise class action lawsuit or tort lawsuits against them.
the insurance guys who will map out water tight insurance plan with huge pay,
the politicians and big corporations who will buy the health facilities and make huge profits.
The health workers and patients will be a big pawns.

DebateNigeria: Nothing has changed my dear. From what I pointed out above, nurses are meant to take instructions from doctors and their superiors (just like every other profession), they appreciate the fact that they work under doctors and must carry out their instructions.
Again from the revised edition you posted above, they were careful not to make the mistake of using the word "prescribe", instead they used the word "give" as against the "administer" used in previous editions.

What exactly are you insinuating ? That aid is not help but serve....... right.!!! Then there is problem. Physicians and nurses works together before other professionals came in and they have to be included in the oath too. Change is constant. The American Nurses Association that pasted that on their walls have members that prescribe instead of administer drug and members who no longer work with physicians but diagnose and treat independently. They know where they started from and are pushing for more.
From most articles flying around since the onset of these health sector crisis, nurses have been loyal to physician until they find out that to each its own.
So the status quo had to changed, no more loyalty, younger nurses are no longer taught Florence Nightingale crap......and then they pitched their tent and loyalty with JOHESU. A hell lot of crises it is giving us. Had it been it was the other way round without the emergent of the egoistical doctors at the helm of NMA affairs, when these two strikes( Doctors and nurses )the FG will come running with their tails between their legs.
So let it massage your ego as you see on the internet but in reality that part of the oath is no longer obtainable.

phantom: until you provide a Link for your original argument,don't bother replying me. it is irritating arguing with someone who keeps shifting the goal post. once again I refer you to your original post.go and re read it.

Typical doctor ego driven, sentimental loaded arguments...running in circle. I can't continue to repeat same thing or soft pedal to sooth your bruised ego.
FG is calling for debate don't shy away on a merry go round. This is nothing compared to the heat NMA will get if faced with FG money hungry lawyers.
NMA can't accept defeat so also its members.
CLOSED.

phantom: SMH.....you are incorrigible! you have spun a web around yourself and you are struggling to get out of it. you made an ill thought out comment and instead of you to acknowledge it you are stubbornly insisting on being right.

again look at your post:
Morotov1: That shows you that your ability has been limited by law because the " paramedics " are already performing your duties.
No wonder Nigerian doctors are retrained and reexamined when they leave the shores of these countries.
I will find it offensive if I am called what I am not and since you failed to distinguished the different and subsequently take correction on who and who are paramedics, may I use these medium to extend my desire to and not to be quoted by you concerning this discourse. Thanks.


my brother every graduate not trained in the US including british and australian doctors go through the same process a nigerian doctor will go through in the US. does it make their training poor

you also said ;"the training is not poor when compared to other thirld world countries but it is when compared to advanced countries"

my brother how is that possible when the americans put both the british and nigerian doctor through the same process for licensing

you also said ; "Nigerian health professionals that practices outside these shores are indoctrinated on the medical jurisprudence, culture and practice of the country they are practicing in to prevent and shelve the Nigerian factor and mediocrity"

oga arent british doctors in the US indoctrinated on jurisprudence,culture and practice too

you have no arguement. until you can prove to me that a british or australian doctor with their world class training is treated different from a nigerian in the US as regards USMLE, please refrain from making careless statements like that.

Reexamination has to do with USMLE then retraining comes in. The British and the Aussies have better chance of being marched into residency especially Neuro or Cardio residency than Nigerian trained doctors even though they both pass the same USMLE but do they have same chance of getting internship placement or being recruited by the top notch hospitals ....No...because hospital and organisations strive to keep themselves abreast of the competence and academic ability of the countries they are recruiting from.
The blacklisting of our medical schools by NHS about 2 years or so ago, how many products of those schools who are privilege to travel abroad were able to get surgical or even placement in primary care. Check out NHS recruitment of foreign doctors, we are not even among the first three.
Don't rant with my handle, leave it for your JOHESU members.

phantom: this is the quote i am tackling you on

please explain the bolded.
you are implying that nigerian doctors are the only ones retrained because our training here is poor if not what exactly do you mean.
please explain to me.maybe i have comprehension issues. please be kind enough to explain to me.

You don't have comprehension issue only that you saw what you want to see to buttress your point.
No where in that post did I make a reference that only Nigerian trained doctors were retrained among others ....The training is not poor when compared to other third world countries but it is when compared to advanced countries.
Nigerian health professionals that practices outside these shores are indoctrinated on the medical jurisprudence, culture and practice of the country they are practicing in to prevent and shelve the Nigerian factor and mediocrity.

phantom: they have modified the bolded out of inferiority complex.pure and simple!
if it is not panadol,it can never be panadol.shikena

It is modified because they no longer aid the physician alone not with the advent of other health workers into the fold.

. Lawyers wins and lose all the time but they rarely resort to insult, sentiment and antics when the going get tough. Check who made the list of the most suicidal profession in the world because they can't take the heat.
Back to where we started what were you saying.
Federal government is calling your ilk out on a debate........can you take the heat.

phantom: oga you tried to give the impression that nigerian doctors are retrained abroad BECAUSE of poor training here and i PUNCTURED THAT ARGUEMENT.if you have nothing better to say please lets move on.

You didn't.
USMLE is a prerequisite for license And so also internship and residency. If internship and residency aren't training then I withdraw my comment.

phantom: Students and graduates of U.S. or Canadian medical school programs accredited by either the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) or Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools, leading to the Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) degree, or by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA), leading to the Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) degree, register for Step 1 and Step 2 of the USMLE with the NBME. [b]Students and graduates of medical schools outside the United States or Canada register for Step 1 and Step 2 with the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG)[/b]Graduates of medical schools in and outside the United States and Canada register for Step 3 with the FSMB or with a medical licensing authority in the United States. Each of the three steps of the USMLE examination complements the other; no step stands alone in the assessment of readiness for medical licensure. The USMLE program recommends that for Step 3 eligibility, licensure authorities require the completion, or near completion, of at least one postgraduate training year in a program of graduate medical education accredited by the Accreditation Council on Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) or the American Osteopathic Association (AOA).

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Medical_Licensing_Examination


pay attention to the bolded. doctors trained outside the US including british,australian and japanese doctors.

Thought we talking about Nigerian doctors and I am aware of other foreign trained doctors taking the USMLE too.

sainty2k3: That is what happen wen people neglect there work
Now doctors have learnt to do round alone without the nurses. We've been forced to do procedures by ourselves without their assistance despise being part of d job description

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_duties_of_a_nurse

Since it can be done alone and perfectly without any long term injury to patient...then continue doing your rounds.

allycat: Let me give you a simple assignment. Google the word honorary consultant,if you can find anywhere where it refers to a non medical doctor let me know. Note I did not say honorary medical consultant, just honorary consultant. As I said how can someone who knows nothing about a prefers soon want to head it, they will just kill it with ignorance.

People that don't even know much heads it and recorded great impact before the self acclaimed all knowing CMD's came in pulling Nigeria to the 192 position and have been in charge for 30 years without any significant change.

phantom: so does the retraining apply only to nigerian doctors?

No, it doesn't but apparently doctors faces more extensive academic reevaluation including professional evaluations more than others.
Check out the embargo NHS placed on the doctors produced from some Nigerian universities some time ago.
In US, you must pass the Education Commission of US medical licencing examination, enroll into a residency program before you can be licenced. Straight out of medical school without some years as an intern or completing a 3 year residency before licensing is no longer obtainable.
So a supposed doctor that made the comment that prompted these discourse won't find it easy working in such a clime.

phantom: oga i am waiting for my answer. i want a cerebral debate from you...
what is the purpose or aim of medical licensing exams in different countries

You don't want to debate with me, you want a sentimental riddled show of words of why your profession is better than others.
I am not a member of JOHESU or NMA but I stand much to gain if Nigerian health facilities are privatised. With what one is seeing here , I can deduce those that will lose massively if a middle ground is not reached between the government and its health workers.

phantom: @ the bolded. you see why allowing you guys to head the hospitals is like initiating apoptosis in our healthcare system.
let me ask you.....what is the purpose of medical licensing exams in different countries

please answer me.

Is there any need for that here. The post you quote was self explanatory. You are retrained and reexamined to ensure you can work efficiently and effectively and also in accordance with the laws guiding the country of resident before you can be licenced to practise.
What do you want to know again.

Nurses no longer swear by Florence Nightingale. I just glanced at the American nurses association pledge and noticed that the clause the Nightingale proposed for nurses to be loyal to physician has been modified, nurses are to extend the loyalty and cooperation to other professionals and organisations.

FDenigma: I deliberately chose "paramedics" to expose how even within your JOHESU ranks, the inferiority complex provokes an aggressive response to semantic variations. So "paramedic" is now an offensive term?

PS: A medical doctor is empowered to provide ANY medical service as long as it is within the scope of his own ability. That includes all para-medical services.

That shows you that your ability has been limited by law because the " paramedics " are already performing your duties.
No wonder Nigerian doctors are retrained and reexamined when they leave the shores of these countries.
I will find it offensive if I am called what I am not and since you failed to distinguished the different and subsequently take correction on who and who are paramedics, may I use these medium to extend my desire to and not to be quoted by you concerning this discourse. Thanks.

sainty2k3: Nigeria has less than 70,000 doctors and that include those that are outside the country and even d dead.
Wen u talk of job description , I 'm sure u are only being received by Johessuite here, doctors don't encroach on anyone's job, u can goggle job prescription for each profession and see. What we rather have in our hospitals this days is that some people now considered their duty lowly which is not e.g in most hospitals,nurses no longer join the round,and leave u alone to find out all that has been wrong with the patient(this is ethically wrong for them). I bet it that people don't even know their job description, they just accept job offer.

Educate me more because doctors have led me to believe that they don't need anybody to know what is wrong with a patient and your peers here admits doing other health professionals job.

VirginFinder: Not at all!

Women admire their successful superiors especially those who are brave enough to break into the male dominated professions, positions and achievements.
Female nurses adore female doctors and are proud of them anytime anyday.

On the other hand, men envy their successful counterparts and do everything to either bring them down, be like them, outdo them or avoid them altogether!

That's why okada/keke riders hate car owners.

You hardly find a literate and illiterate man mingling together like pals. Reason: inferiority complex.

But an illiterate woman will find no qualms in respecting, appreciating and taking the lower ground in her friendship with a literate person.

Who is the literate here and the illiterate...
The fantasy you pasted up there is a million mile from the truth, female don't work well with their fellow women irrespective of how highly place and academically fulfilled you are.
Google female doctors experience working with nurses. It is an eye opener.

FDenigma: Paramedics in the American sense is what you have defined. A medic is a doctor. All other allied health workers are referred to as paramedical staff. Derogatory? Would you prefer I said "non-MD/MBBS doctors"?

PS: if doctors in Govt hospitals restrict themselves to "only our work", God knows how many more patients would die from unchanged infusions, missing records, unsent lab samples and delayed results? When ds strike is over, please spend a day with a doctor in any teaching hospital.

Medics are for doctors and military corps man. Paramedics are different from allied health workers Generally, it is incorrect to refer other health workers as such. Check the meaning of paramedics please.
The last paragraph they are all for the good of the patient....is it legal no matter how noble and justified it is.....just like a nurse writing prescriptions now doctors are on strike...

VirginFinder: The bolded is what angers me!

How can an able-bodied man be proud to be a nurse/midwife?

Why should a man go into a female profession - so pink collar in nature?

Can you imagine a male doctor and male nurse working together?
Looks absurd!

Honestly, if I were a doctor, I can't and will never work with a male nurse.
It makes me look gay!!

Sincerely, who would you be proud of the most, your nurse son or doctor daughter?

Women are by nature programmed to see men as the head/leader/boss.

Hence, female nurses/midwives are more often than not contented with their status in the hospital.

Same also applies to female doctors.
Makes them look like lesbians.
What the hell are you smoking?

allycat: As I said imagine someone who doesn't have an idea how medical education is carried out now wants to head a teaching hospital.I didn't say the others do not need a hospital to do clinicals not necessarily a teaching hospital. If a hospital does not have lecturers from the university as honorary consultants it will loose it's accreditation as a teaching hospital and become a specialist or general hospital. That is also why they are overworked, they do the job of a full consultant and that of a lecturer. The hospital gets the service of a consultant and pays only some allowances which is about half what they would pay a full consultant and the honorary consultants salary even when you add the clinical supplementation is not more than the full consultant.

You know yours and I know mine. Stopping me from getting my own honorary consultant while you still have yours is so wrong. It is not as if other health workers are agitating for these all of a sudden ...NO.....these has been the status quo until NMA decided that they are not supposed to be....claiming the title and allowance all to themselves.
Who are we kidding?? Money!!!!!!!

FDenigma: Encroach on other professionals? You've got it backwards. The doctor allowed these paramedics to encroach into his profession because of the need for better patient care. I understand that the stature of the doctor inspires jealousy especially in our unenlightened population. Put your emotions aside and reason from a rational point of view. Use this current strike to assess the effectiveness of these health professionals when a doctor isn't supervising.

Careful perusal of the posts here on these very thread and you will see for yourself how admittedly a doctor acknowledged doing the works of others.
Meanwhile, we don't have paramedics in Nigeria except you are using it as a derogatory term for other health professionals. Paramedics are trained emergency medical personnel so i haven't seen nurses, pharmacist, physiotherapist, med lab scientists being that.