₦airaland Forum

panthress:
nyfren dude stop insultin me, im juz tryin totell u that God exists so u can tell me otherwise and i want to see the point your comin from, juz make it consise, when u copy some large stuff from a website it doesnt help me in anyway. i can't read all that because i joggle tingz on da net. basically make it short

Why should I not point you to the deficiencies in your reasoning? Your were the one insulting me on the abortion thread.
Anyway do not expect me to make a concise version of my main points, I have neither the time nor the energy to dumb down my arguments

Goodguy, honestly, I have a better explanation. It was all the flying spaghetti monster or maybe the coconut most holy. All points in that direction. There is no denying. By denying the spaghetti monster, you only show that you hate him and that you are in the spell of the evil french fries, the archfoe of the spaghetti monster. It is either this or that, you can't have it both ways.
by the way, you can only embrace the boiling frying oil by being in the spaghetti, no matter what good deeds you may do in life, only spaghetti can save you.

@ Etienne,

Do you subscribe to the tradition of mortification, as described by your favorite saint?

Why Escriva de Balaguer? Can't you choose someone more humane, such as father Damian or Saint Fransiscus?

nicetohave:
Yeah, John Lennon, i say you are truly truly a dreamer...................i pray those you have sent to sleep to dream likewise as yours will wake up to the truth.

Yeah, kill 'm all and let God sort out his own. Let's do God's work

Lady Nnenna1, I commend you for your insight (even though I don't fully agree). If more Christians were like you, the world would truly be a better place.

allonym:
I suppose if someone cut off your head, but somehow, your heart continued to beat and the rest of your body was alive, you'd want to bankrupt your parents so they could keep your mindless body alive?

And maybe you can then lobby for congress to pass a law just for your sake, and have the president interrupt his holiday just on your behalf. You will be more important than those thousands of people fighting for their lives because of a hurricane. For you, the president would interrupt his holiday, for them not. It's great to be special, isn't it.

John Lennon, a wonderful human being.

Imagine - John Lennon

magine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
No religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Imagine no possesions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one

panthress:
that waznt for u nferyn,
oh between cut all da evolution thing crap and tell me about what u think of the existence of God not all em copy and paste tingz then you'll show me proof and please make it short, then ill tell u my own way.

Read my contributions to this thread and you'll have your answers. I'm not going to repeat myself for the fifteenth time to someone who is too lazy to read
As for your contribution, I'm affraid that you'll have to find another magic potion from a less shallow well if you want to convince anyone who uses more than a dozen of his or her brain cells.

By the way that evolution thing crap just happens to be the foundation of biology, but I guess you don't care about that.

panthress:
God created us on da 6th day, noah took everyyyyyyyy animal, male n female species inside the ark.
Evolution is not a possibility it is not a fact, we never evolved

[quote author=AbbeyMarie link=topic=3833.msg159813#msg159813 date=1136660584]yeah, i know... i just didn't feel like making more conflict... guess it didn't work. LMAO!

[/quote]What exactly are you trying to say here?

goodguy:
Anyway, Noah's ark has been found by archaeologists.

No it hasn't been found , these so called findings were hoaxes.

The story about Noah and his ark, is complete and utter balony. It is physically impossible for such a thing to ever have happened.

panthress:
God created us on da 6th day, noah took everyyyyyyyy animal, male n female species inside the ark.
Evolution is not a possibility it is not a fact, we never evolved

Says the authority ... of what exactly? .... based on what evidence exactly?

Ignorance reigns supreme in your universe, that's quite obvious.

panthress:
hmm, americans r british, they did not evolve or somethin they juz moved there, the reel americans r da native indians n cherokee n pplz like that.
people say we evolve from monkeys, if humans date back to a longggggggggg time ago, not quite sure when and can't be bothered to check. monkeys shld be dead from now and their shld be somethin to show that we evolved from em.

If you cannot be bothered to check, then I'm done trying to explain basic science to you. Either you choose to be ignorant or you choose to educate yourself. It's quite obvious which path you have chosen. If you want me to reply to any of your questions about evolution, first check out the links I provided before and then ask specific questions.

Evidence for evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Evidence for Human evolution (somethin to show that we evolved from em):
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

Come with your proof for the existence of God and you'll have my ear.

panthress:
note
please don't type so much stuff in one message

If you are willing to learn, you will have to go through some intellectual effort. This includes reading all these spun out posts.

panthress:
so u think we evolved from monkeyz, so why iz it still here

We did [b]not [/b]evolve from any currently living monkey. We do share a common ancestor with apes, monkeys, mammals, fish, ... with all multi-cellular life on earth.

Let me ask you another question:
If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?

layi:
..and you're sure its a better one?

Yes, something that has no imediate cause exists by definition through chance. Now, if you insert a causal mechanism (God), then you need to:
1. explain the existance and working of that mechanism
2. prove that that mechanism caused the event

I have a better explanation: pure chance.

And the point of these highly selective anecdotes is?

Have a look at this:
http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

panthress:
ok well my first question for u who created u?
ps if usay urparents through sex. explain who created your first line of generations?

Why ask me a question? You were going to bring me proof of God's existence. Anyway, I will try to answer your somewhat vague question. Please, if the answer is not sufficient, try to rephrase, because your choice of words is not really helping to clarify your intent.

1. I nor my forebears were created. We are the result of millions of years of asexual reproduction, followed by millions of years of sexual reproduction, working on living organisms. The process by which the changes in these organisms came is called evolution. Evolution is both a fact and a theory.
Let me quote biologist Lewontin:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

Now, the mechanisms by which the fact of evolution took place is another matter. The fact of evolution is best explained by the Theory of Evolution (or what is known in modern Biology as the modern synthesis). Douglas J. Futuym puts it as follows:

A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.

A good introduction in evolutionary biology (there is no other) can be found on these sites:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

From now on, I'll only reply to the point I think are important. If you have more specific questions, just ask.

AbbeyMarie:
I think that because i am ignorant about many things, i can understand divine concepts better. If that makes any sence? Like, when you reasearch in human concepts, it becomes the only way you think. But because i have not enveloped myself in human concepts, i do not limit my thinking to only human concepts, so i can get vauge glimpses of divine concepts. Does this make any sense?

No, it doesn't make sense. You are limited to human concepts because you are human. You cannot possibly get a glimpse of these divine concepts, they are beyond your understanding. The argument from analogy (divine omnipotence is like human omnipotence, only different in kind) doesn't make sense as there is no way to relate the two.

AbbeyMarie:
This would give a reason to why some people think that ignorance is a virtue. maybe this is the reason that God didn't want us to eat from the tree of knowledge, because we would be limiting out knowledge.

I don't know, all i do know is that we did eat from the tree of knowledge, so now, i want to learn as much as possible.

This is where Christianity differs from Judaism and Islam in it's application. Both Judaism and Islam strees the importance of knowledge and learning very much.

AbbeyMarie:
i do agree, but they are also taught God loves them even though they can never live up to the standards, and that God is mercyful and God is always there, whereas children who arent raised in this envoirnment, don't grow up knowing that there will always be someone who loves them no matter how many times they mess up.

If you do not know fear, you cannot be fearful and you don't need any consolation. Why would God put forth such impossible standards to start with?

AbbeyMarie:
That would suck if i lost my faith. I mean, as a teenager i don't know who i am... but if i didn't have God.... Holy crap... I'd probably kill myself.... it's a good thing that God is my only truth, so i know i wont loose my faith!

Can't you turn to your family if you feel lousy? It's a bit harsh on yourself if you have to deal with these feelings all alone.

AbbeyMarie:
I don't know where to start looking and reaserching aobut other religions and philosophies. Do you know of a place to start? because i do need, to find myself, to learn about them. I don't know why that would help me understand who i am.... well i guess it will let me understand just how lucky i am, maybe other things too... i don't know i just know that i need to learn more.

An excellent introduction into philosophy is Jostein Gaarder's Sophie's World
see: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425152251/qid=1136629391/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
I guess you can always pick up a copy in the library
As for other religions, go and visit a mosque and a synagogue and ask questions, they will gladly help you on your way. Do not forget to look into the eastern religions as well (especially Buddhism).

AbbeyMarie:
I will try to expand my horizon... but i don't know how, exactly. Where do you start.... how do you know what websites are good, what books are good.

Just start withSophie's world and asking questions to people of other faiths.

AbbeyMarie:
whats a Yurup? i could probably buy a gun here... but passing airport security HERE in the USA, after the terrrorist attack.... ha like i could get into the airport with out beeing arrested...

You don't know Yurup? My oh my ... you don't know that tiny continent with countries such as France, Spain, the UK and of course the lovely Belgium? You Americans truly must be living on another planet
Within Europe, Airport security has always been as tight as it is in the US nowadays, we've had terrorists long before they took up the idea of attacking the US.

panthress:
sup nyfern we meet again, what made me think that u don't believe in God after them abortion tingz.
hey do u believe me we evolved, there are scientifical evidences to prove that God exists that he made u and i. want to tlak more about it holla back. im alwayz open to people who don't believe in da existence of God

Hi there,
Join the crowd. I've been asking all those wonderful people of Nairaland for just that. None have been able to provide anything that can be considered proof or somewhat conclusive evidence (actually, proof does not exist in the empirical sciences, only evidence). Now, maybe you could be the first person on this planet to prove the existence of a supreme being. I would be happy to entertain you with my ungodly ways (don't worry, I'm not dangerous, I've been happily married to a wonderful Christian for 8 years now)

Welcome Mr. Bassey,

Another physicist in the house, aren't you?
Indeed spirituality and religion are not synonymous. Our being and consciousness do have rational scientific explanations - although our understanding of them is far from complete.

Good popular scientific introductions to consciousnes are:
How The Mind Works, Steven Pinker
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393318486/qid=1136628297/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
The Blank Slate, Steven Pinker
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0142003344/qid=1136628297/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
[i]Freedom Evolves, Daniel C. Dennet[/i
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0142003840/qid=1136628371/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance]

Horrible isn't it

panthress:
man nfern what did the white pplz in belgium do to u, what u think of euthanasia. i bet u'll tell me its right for someone to decide to take person life

Look at my profile, dear.... I am the white devil

And, as a counterbalance, go and look at this
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-2837.0.html
you'll understand I'm not all that bad

AbbeyMarie:
So, after reading your reply to my most previous post i realized something.

So, when i think, sometimes God talks to me in my thoughts, gives me wisdom, because i ask him to give me wisdom, and whenever he is asked for wisdom he gives it.

So, when i was thinking about this, before i entered this debate, God gave me a slight glimpse into how it is possible. And i have been trying to explain what it is that God gave me a glimpse of.

But, several times in your reply, you said that the omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenovelnce of God could be different from our concept of them.

And i realized, you are so completely right. It's not in our concept of omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenovelnce that i have an understanding of how predestination and free-will co-exist.

Infact, i agree with you that in our understanding of them, it's not possible for predestination and free-will to co-exist.

And, i cannot explain it, in our concept of them, because our concept of them is what makes us question it in the first place.

I'm glad you understood my point. I didn't really see how you could not understand what I was saying before, but I probably made some incorrect assumptions about your prior knowledge. I'm quite surprised to see such a maturity in a 15 year old girl. My compliments.

Now, concerning the properties of God. If they are different from our conception, we have no real frame of reference to compare them to and they thus become meaningless. You could try to reason from analogy, but even there your understanding would utterly fail, as you still need a human concept to refer to. basically God is unknowable for us humans.

AbbeyMarie:
Unless it's possible, that we are feeling something different. How do you know what you feel is what i feel? We can never know, maybe you haven't experienced God before. i know i have.

It's very well possible that it was something different, but then again, your prior conceptual framework determines how you perceive the world and what you attribute events and feelings to.
The sociologist William Thomas once wrote If men define situations as real they are real in their consequences. This is very true for experiental and emotional situations. It's a logical consequence of humans trying to attribute events to a concrete cause, even if that cause cannot possibly be known by them.

AbbeyMarie:
I did grow up in a theistic environment. And as to why i, in particular, believe in God. Well, i do have to admit that my theistic environment made my belief in God grow more rapidly than if i hadn't grown up in one. And as a child (in 1st/2nd grade) my sunday school teacher explained that Christians would go to heaven to live with god and people who aren't Christians wouldn't. and so, i think that when i originally received Jesus in my heart, it was because i was afraid that if i died i would go to Hell. That is why i originally believed in Christ.

This is the main problem I have with putting children through a strong religious Christian training at a young age: an unnecessary feeling of fear is put in their minds. In many cases a feeling of guilt is added to that. People cannot possibly live up to the impossible targets religions put up for them. Then they feel guilty for not succeeding. If anyone, as an adult, wants to go through that, I have no problem with it, but for children, this verges on child abuse.
I know I use harsh words here, but young children should not have to deal with these kinds of feelings.

AbbeyMarie:
but then, i actually started to feel God working in my life. and i learned more about him, and it made sense to believe, because God was so real. Now, i am actually turning 15 years old in 22 days, and am in my freshman year of highschool. I am right now, probably at the lowest point in my belief that i have been in a long time, if not ever. This is because i am going through changes in my life, and problems occur and yet through all this, i always seem to have faith in God. One day last year, i was depressed beyond imagination, i couldn't even try to get through the day by myself. I prayed non-stop to God, to ask for strength to get through the next breath, the next step etc... God gave strength to me. It did not come from within. it came from God, i have no doubt about this.

Think about how your frame of reference works in the way you attribute feelings to these events. If you wouldn't have had the strenght, you probably would have thought you didn't pray enough. Either way, you would have attributed the outcome to God (or you failing to live up to his standards).

AbbeyMarie:
And the next day, i didn't even go to school because i was so depressed, and i got an email from a brother who was in his freshman year in colledge. The reason i had been depressed was because i felt like no one loved me at all. even though in my head i knew they did, i didn't feel their love.

That's perfectly normal. During your teen years, your hormones cause a serious imbalance in the normal functioning of your neurotransmitters (which regulate your feelings). You unfortunately just have to sit through it.

AbbeyMarie:
My brothers email told me that during his vespers the night before (vespers is a type of biblestudy) he felt the need to write me, and in the email, he told me that he loved me. That was God. God worked through my brother to lift me out of my depression, and i made it through at least the end of the year because of that.

This is another case of attribution. Don't worry, you seem to have an inquisitive mind. Keep asking questions and challenging yourself. You'll grow stronger out of the experience.

AbbeyMarie:
You ask why people believe in God. and i realize I'm probably not one of the 'intellegint' people you talked about, but rather the ignorant, because i have grown up sheltered and still am very sheltered, i try to learn about everything so i become less ignorant. but the reason i believe in God, is because without him, i am hopeless, useless. My entire life is based on him, because what he has done for me. Does this make any sense to you at all?

Somehow, but it doesn't really matter. Continue to learn, ask questions and try to deepen your knowledge and understanding. You can deepen your faith, you could lose it, but you will come out a better person. Learn about other religions and philosophies and ask yourself what the nature of understanding is. A shallow mind looks for shallow answers and I have felt with you that this is not the case. Expand your mental horizon.

AbbeyMarie:
No offense to any Catholics reading this, but i do not agree with most of the teaching in the catholic religion. You must remember that Catholic is not the same as Christian, yes the Roman Catholic Church is the 'Christian' Church... but, you can be catholic, and not be Christian, just as you can be Christian, and not be catholic. (there ARE people who are both, but being catholic has Nothing to do with being Christian). My mom grew up her entire life going to a Catholic Church, she became Christian when she was in her twenties. (this is just a comment, it has no real point or purpose)

This looks like a classical Protestant view on Catholics. It is true that the Catholic Church sometimes overemphasises form over substance, but don't let that limit you. The protestant interpretation of the message of Jesus is sometimes a harsh, orthodox, literalistic and shallow interpretation. If you look for a deeper meaning, you could study the early Christian churches and what they believe, especially the gnostic churches and gospels (e.g. the gospel according to Thomas).
It is also interesting to understand the way the Muslims and Jews study their religion. Expand your horizon.

AbbeyMarie:
ignorance a virtue... well i know it would have been better if Eve had not brought back the fruit to eat because it was a sin, but i don't understand why God wouldn't want us to be intellectual. That's another question for my list. (by list i mean list of questions I'm asking God when i get to heaven, if i remember them, that is..) So, personally i don't think that ignorance is a virtue, i know we all have ignorance. but.... i don't know, that could be a thread itself.

Please don't thread the route of a literalistic interpretation of the Bible. They are parables and allegories to teach a deeper meaning of the divine. If you have a Jewish community nearby, go and ask them how they study the Torah (the Christian Old Testament), you will understand what I mean.

AbbeyMarie:
would i be horrible if i said that i think this debate is coming to a close? Because, like i said above, thanks to you, i realize that all i have been doing is trying to explain something outside of human perceptions... and I've explained it the best i possibly can. all i can do now is turn in more circles and repeat explaining over and over, hoping that it makes sense...

Continue studying and please, don't close your mind for competing explanations of life, they can only deepen your understanding.

AbbeyMarie:
well, i don't own a gun so you don't have to worry..... if i did though, you might have to watch out.... LMAO! (Laugh my a*s off)

I'm in good old Yurup and guns are not easy to obtain here. You'll never pass airport securit anyway

Feature wise both will do
colour accuracy over different products and output formats: choose Photoshop
Price: Photo Paint
Standard in the Graphics industry: Photoshop
UI: Photoshop
Leaning cureve: don't know, guess Photo Paint is easier to start with
Productivity: Photoshop (scriptable, extensible to the extreme)

Caution: This applies to Photoshop 6 and PhotoPaint at that time, haven't really worked extensively with the newer versions)

---- OFF TOPIC RANT ---

allonym vs. chrisd, an engineer vs. a physicist
Let's get this party started

I always like the part where the physcist calls the civvie shallow Maybe it's a dimensional problem

@ chrisd

Maybe you should read the book The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man by Robert M. Price. I just received it. Mightily interesting.
see: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591021219/qid=1136577212/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I deny everything
As a matter of fact, I even deny my existence

PS: the invention of Religion was one of my best works

Maybe I should start a church of my own (as a fix, I mean)

chrisd:
About 1500 years. Anyway, the Bible is not supposed to be error free, but it is supposed to be accurate.

Far more than that.
How do you define accuracy in this context?

chrisd, you should read a course in historical criticism and modern historiography. The Bible is far from being historically correct, it is loosely based on some historical facts, but greatly exaggerated. There is some evidence pointing to an exile of the Jewish people in Babylon, the story of Moses though does not have any credible archaeological evidence behind it and a lot of evidence against.