₦airaland Forum

nicetohave:
Jesus said, if you love me you will keep my commandments, if they recognize him then they will keep his words and statutes...........Jesus as rightly said is not a prophet, he is the son of God there is a palpable difference between the two

That all depends on the interpretation. The Bible scholar Robert M. Price, who was a member of the Jesus Seminar, says the following about the son of God passage in John (I'm paraphrasing here):
- when interpreting the Bible and trying to find out the core message and shift out all that has been added later, you need to look at the date at which the Gospels were written. The earliest Gospel is probably closest to the original message as the different Gospels build on one another
- when you find complicated theological passages as opposed to simpletheological passages in the different Gospels, the simpler ones are probably closer to the original message

Using this technique on the statement You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:16)
The earliest Gospel, that of Mark talks about You are the Christ (Mark 8:29), the more recent gospel of Luke has Peter saying You are the Christ of God(Luke 9:20) the even more recent version of Matthew talks about You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:16)
The most recent gospel that of John, swings this back around and says You are the Holy one of God (John 6:69)
Why this change, you may ask? Simple: Mark, Luke and probably Matthew were mostly written for a Jewish Christian audience, where they needed to make it abundantly clear that Jesus was not just the Jewish Messiah, but something entirely different, so they beef up their account considerably. John was intended for a gentile audience, so the divinity of Jesus is no longer a main issue (the intended audience is also visible in the antisemitic tone of John)

The most likely saying by Peter was thus: You are the Christ. All the rest is later stage editing to create a greater propaganda effect.

When someone lives a just life and does good all through his or her life, but does not accept Jesus in his heart, he will go to hell.
Someone who commits unspeakable atrocities, but accepts Jesus on the other hand will go to heaven?

This is wicked.

@ AbbeyMarie
There is ample proof (not only evidence, but actual proof) of the non existence of the specific [/b]God of Christianity and Judaism in their literal reading of the Bible.
There cannot be proof for the non existance of a [b]generic God.

As atheism only implies the lack of belief in a supreme being, it is up to the theists to prove the existence of such a being.

Elbaron has explained my position far more eloquently than I ever could have done myself:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4411.0.html#msg146195

Logical:
@nferyn,
If you had debated towards arguing based on theory of logic then I wouldnt say much. Its a pity that you don't want to see beyound what you have made yourself to believe, nor do you want to open room for accomodating new knowledge based on basic reasoning and adjustment.

Well, Sir, do try. It's obvious from your explanation that Islam explains the natural world within the confines of what is possible and that explanation does make sense. The same does not go for Christianity or Judaism. It does remain an unnecassary layer of abstraction though if you are trying to talk about the problem of predestination and free will.

Logical:
You claim you are open but in reality, you are closed. I don't expect you to accept, but what i expect from you is logical reasoning and debating based of facts and what is laid down already. Not what you have made yourself to believe.

Explain to me the errors I've made here. You are just asserting.

Logical:
To end my debate on this topic, I would like to quote a basic logical rule for you to digest.

p->q
q->r
deduction:: p->r
Which means p implies q and q implies r therefore p literally implies r. The deduction is assumed but does not exist, but its logical, so is free will.

Thank you for repeating something from my freshman year in University. What is the relevance if I may ask.

Logical:
The deduction is assumed but does not exist, but its logical, so is free will.

You certainly have not made the case for the second, or are you saying that free will does not exist? (pardon me here, I may have misunderstood, English is not my mother tongue)

Logical:
1 + 1 = 1 arithmetic law
1 + 1 = 10 binary law
Therefore 1 + 1 can either be 1 or 10, depending on what law we choose to apply. The choice of the law does not question our already knowledge because we already have that knowledge. So is freedom of free will.

That would be 2. I'm not really familiar with [i]your [/i]binary notations, but I understand what you are saying here. The [i]existence [/i]of choice of law is in contradiction with predestination and onminscience. What were you trying to say again?

Logical:
I just hope this is not too much for your brain . Have a nice day.

You assume too much, Sir

AbbeyMarie:
I can honestly say, that if Hitler, before he died, received Jesus into his heart, he Would be in heaven right now.

AbbeyMarie:
Good works get you nowhere. they are a good thing to do, but you don't have to do them to get into heaven. you can never do enough good works. no matter what, you will never be able to go to heaven on good works alone.

What a wicked religion

nicetohave:
Predestination does not contradict free will but makes room for it

In which logical system does that apply? The informal anti-logical logical system

@ logical
Universal Knowledge implies knowledge of the future
Knowledge of the future implies predestination
Predestination contradicts free will

If you mean Edo, I think my wife would love that

goodguy:
Never mind. Come to Nigeria first. You'll see wonders.

Hopefully next august

goodguy:
I'll be glad if you come to Nigeria and see things for yourself. But then, I hope you won't start using science to explain the miracles by pastor Chris.

Why wouldn't I try to use science to explain things that happen in front of me?

ijebuman:
i'm assuming you meant other people turned into ... not you

Maybe it would be a good thing if more people turned into me but on the other hand, is there enough ego space for all these me's, after all, they shouldn't start competing with me

Ijebuman, actually you don't need proof. Humans are animals with an exceptionally large and active brain. Some use it for the advancement of society.... others just have way too much phantasy.

ijebuman:
Layi!!! baba that one pass me o, humans turning to animals please show us evidence of this ever happening
someone is watching too much nollywood

This would actually be a good thing. An instant solution to overpopulation. Layi, why don't you send one of these people over here. There are some people I'd like to be turned into ......

donnie:
Nferyn, How come you appear not to believe tin the existence of a spiritual world when there is ample eveidence all around us. The things which we see according to God's word come from things that we do not see.

In other words, the spiritual world controls the physical world.

There is no evidence around us, at least I haven't seen any yet. What you're saying about the so called spiritual world does not make sense to me. I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never encountered a spirit.
Can you explain to me the process by which the spiritual world controls the physical world?

donnie:
Are you african? ....and did you say you do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. I tell you, there are some folks(not just traditional juju priests but children of God) who have power to even tie you down to the ground so that you can't get up.

No, I'm not African, my wife is. Well, talk is cheap. No-one has ever done that to me.

donnie:
I dare you (if you are not afraid to witnesss genuine proofs of God's exixtence) to attend one of Pastor Chris' meetings (say...healing school) with soomeone sick or diseased. Even if you do not break down in tears before the pesence of God for your disobedience and hardness of heart you sure will bow down and worship God because of the working of His mighty power which you will witness before your very eyes.

I've already promised my wife that I will follow her to one of these services. I'll keep you all posted of what will happen. Don't hope too much, though.

donnie:
I have seen several atheists and anti-christs bow to the Name of Jesus at the working of God's mighty power. You will not be the first.

I wonder if you've ever met a conscient atheist is your life.

donnie:
It is easy to be an etheist when things seem to be moving on fine. However, it is extremely difficult to be an etheist when you are on your death bed.

Indeed, religion is for the weak minded. It gives answers where there are none. It gives purpose when there is none. It gives a fast-food morality to those who lack the intelligence to develop their own ethics. Allmost all strong religious people I've met have one thing in common: an immense fear. Fear for death, fear for the consequences of their actions, fear for things not to go their way, ... They live in an incredible fear for what they don't know.

@ Logical
So in Islam, Allah is not omniscient, which makes him different from the Judeo-Christain God. He knows all possible outcomes of the actions people can take, but he does not know which actions they will take, as he leaves to choice to them.

@ logical

Thank you for trying to bring some sense into this debate. I think though that you've just added a layer of abstraction to the discussion.
From what I understood, in Islam, the properties of Allah are still in contradiction with the concept of free will.
Isn't Allah omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent? If so, then there is still no free will.
Can you clarify?

It's not that it can't evolve into a language. If enough children have it as their mother tongue, it is definitely going to evolve into a language (as happened with Krio in Sierra Leone). You do need codification and a link with the creative arts to make it really useful for all functions in society. What would be sad though is if the original languages would be lost because of that process

Some quotes by Napoleon Bonaparte (who was crowned Emperor by the Pope). You'll catch my drift

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

So basically the God concept is illogical

Truth though is a human concept and cannot be applied to a being that is not bound by human logic or natural limitations.

Saying God is truth is the same thing as saying God is purple, not human purple, but a purple only God himself can understand. Such a statement does not transmit any information because the concepts are not defined in the human realm. You cannot understand God, his purpose, his properties, his intentions, ... You cannot understand anything about God, because understanding would be defining and defining would be limiting and God is unlimited.... Intellectual blabbertalk

dejiolowe:
I don't think God has destined some for heaven or hell else no one would be guilty. God is passionate and will do his best to make us see the light but he CANNOT drag us to him.

So God is not omnipotent (all powerful).
Are you people so blind that you cannot see that the properties ascribed to God are mutually incompatible?

If he knows what you will do before you do it (as in omniscience), you have no choice but to do it, thus you have no free will. You may try to bend definitions a smuch as you like, but free will implies choice, choice implies uncertainty of the future, uncertainty implies that omniscience is imposible.
Omniscience and free will are incompatible.

@ nicetohave
omniscient: all knowing, all seeing
@ layi
if God is omniscient, free will is a fluke as it isn't free will at all.

So basically God is not omniscient

nicetohave:
God is all seeing, but if you want to refer to all knowing he knows what you will do even before you do it, yes he does, but he has also given you a free will and he wants you to use your will, there is predestination and there is your will, God predetermines but also permits you to use your will, God given will to recreate your world.

This does not compute. It's like saying an object is both a square and a circle at the same time. If there is predestination, there is no free will.

I agree with thelastdon. Maybe give a warning first and only suspend if an infraction follows.

IAH:
I believe in God but I don't exactly believe in pre-destination. We believers of God see him in different ways. Most people see him as unchanging, I don't see him that way. God could have a plan/destiny for us but he definitely changes his mind too, that's right, he does change his mind sometimes. My own Destiny is where I want to be - my destination. I just won't accept fate, NO!

So God is not all seeing

It's clear that if you believe in God, you must believe in pre-destination, otherwise God could not be all seeing, so whatever you do, it doesn't matter.