olabowale:

@deariekay Not surprising that the author of the article that you quoted from, to illustrate the 'slight variations,' as he said in the Qur'an will say what he said. I am a Yoruba man, and you will know that from my name. I learnt how read the Qur'an in Arabic in America. Thank God. This is the greatest achievement of my life. It has opened my heart to the religion that you are trying so hard to put down and drag it in the same damp filth that you have your own religion and its book.

Now I read Warsh, which is more associated to the Moroccans, and also read Hafs. All my Qur'ans are in Hafs, which is an easier reading for me, because I am very used to the character. But I learnt how to read Qur'an from what the Indian/Pakistani subcontinent is more associated with. Yet it is a different character from the other two, the Warsh and Hafs! But when you pick up warsi Qur'an, you know immediately the different letters, eg fa, qaf are differently written, and unlike the Hafs, fa and qaf. But they are pronounced the same way, in both and all the Qur'ans, with slight local or dialectic pronounciation or voice inflections.

For example an Indian reciter will say va instead of wa. But everyone knows that he pronounced wa, not va, because thare is no V in arabic vocal or alphabets. Your guy is a magicians, and since he knows that he is talking to the eyes and ears and hearts and tongues that are unfamiliar to the Qur'anic words/pronounciations, he can fool you all day, all night all the time! His garbage is for the comsumptions of the ignorants. You happen for now be one of them. He knows that the muslims will destroy his hypothesis, in a minute, as even a man like me is doing right now. Yet I have not memorised a great deal of the Qur'an. But i can read every letter of these three styles i have mentioned. There are other styles that can only be read by those who studied the Qur'an in an matriculated setting. But we all pronounce it the same way. Whether you read slow, fast, prolonging as if exagerating the sound, or sharp as if compressing the sound, in Warsh, Hafs, or any style, the trained eyes, ears and tongue will correct the reciter, even when they are from opposite ends of the world, if a mistake is made.

Tell your hoodini, that his magic did nothing to the muslims. We do not falkl for flim flam, or any ind of hokeydoke! Tell your person and am addressing this to all the non Muslims, that Qur'an does not have to be written down before it can be recited. It is an oral document, so his hypothesis of written vowels or word variations id zero on the scale of 1 to 10. Zero being lets closely into the presentation, the minimun possible mark here. Afterall, Muhammad did not know how to read and did not know how to write! Yet he is the one that the Qur'an was revealed to! How about that? Further the time he forgot even a word of it, it was aprocess of Allah given us the legislation of how to correct reciters in the muslim ummah. Afterall, Allah caused His Messenger (as) to forget so that He can show us that no one is abovethe ability to forget and therefore no one should feel low that he or she is corrected. It is the same way that a mistake is correct in salah by the making up what you did not do, eg, if the numbers of rakah wee not exacly as it is supposed to be, you make the two prostrations of the face before you get out of the Salah.

This s a strange phenomina, to you, since prostration is something you are arrogant to do yet. Even muhammad was the one who had most prostrations in Salah to his Creator. Afterall, no one can be as good as him in Islamic worship. I can not say that about Christians and Jesus, since Jesus was not a Christian anyhow. So your mode of worshipis something strange to Jesus and was also developed by others after him, who could not possibly be his true follower(s).

pilgrim already answered you well my inlaw so no need beating a dead horse.
This whole thread was started for 2 reasons only

1. To prove that the Islamic claim that there are no different translations of the Koran,a big lie and deception.

2.To make them ponder at least on nairaland,anytime they choose to attack the Bible based on versions and translations

It's amazing how Muslims perpetuate so many lies about Islam,lies that are totally unnecessary.
So what if there are different Arabic Korans with some minor differences,does that change the main message Islam wants to portray to it's adherents ?
If you understand this,how difficult is it for you to understand that English translations of the Bible from the same manuscript could differ in very minor things and yet the message of the Bible remains unchanged.
I even took pains to show you how the NIV placed your so called missing phrase on a minute sentence down in it's footnotes yet your pride and claim of the "pure Koran" as written by allah didn't let you see reason.

Now you admit to reading hafs and warsh,do you understand then when I tell you I read the KJV and NKJV and that does not make me holier than a Christian who prefers the NIV or goodnews Bible ,the message of the cross and plan of salvation remains unchanged.

Earlier,you had made mention of different Christian denominations as proof that Christianity is corrupted until you were basically forced to confess and acknowledge the sects in Islam and their varying differences.

Christians would never waste time on trying to prove the Koran as corrupted,we don't need to.
We are not in competion and have never been.
The message of Christ and the whole Bible stands alone with enough historical evidence to support it.

Question to anyone really: Are there more than 1 english translation of the Koran?

osisi point is noted the core contents and message remains the same despite the minor differences due to translations. for me the differenct translations of the bible are a blessing, wonderful, it brings it to todays language (simplicity) in addition u can understand it for yourself bring the bible alive for you.

If a muslim can help contribute how the translations has helped you in your faith, is it necessary or should it be left in Arabic.

Below is what the author that I cited wrote

In case Muslim readers should be greatly concerned: The variances between these different versions of the Koran are generally quite small and minor, although there are a substantial number of them. Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun has published a version of the (Hafs) Koran which contains the variant readings from the 10 Accepted Readers in its margins. About 2/3 of the ayat (verses) have some sort of variant reading. The great majority are differences in the vowels inserted in certain words (remembering that the early written kufic texts of the Koran did not include vowels or diacritical marks). There appears to be only one difference that might represent a significant effect on belief, that in surah 2:184. There are many Islamic scholars' discussions about these many differences. As an example of one, in Hafs, surah 2:140 reads taquluna, while in Warsh, that text is in surah 2:139 and reads yaquluna. Another example: Hafs surah 2:214 reads yaquula while Warsh surah 2;212 reads yaquulu. Muslim scholars agree that such variations do not seriously alter the meaning of statements made in the Koran.

Now since you folks understand the above,you should have no problem understanding why the KJV could have a phrase on the body of the text and the NIV places that same phrase on it's footnotes.

@ away4 real,there are over 20 versions of the English Korans and counting.
just 4 of them alone have undergone over 100 revisions.

Like you I love the different Bible translations, good for effective Bible studying.
Try teaching childrens' Bible study with a King James with thee,thou and "suffer little children"
The NIV,Good News and American standard are in everyday English,even a toddler can understand it.
Thank God we don't have to learn Aramaic,Greek and Hebrew to worship or know the mind of God.
Halleluia!!!!!!

Where's everybody?

Around the Corner!

+osisi:

Where's everybody?

Nne, we just dey! We're still looking at the "translations" of this thread. 

@ olabolae

first of all dont try to change the topic, before i start answering, do you accept that there are five versions of KORAN as clearly spelt out for you by osisi and pilgrim?


cos what we are disussing here is not about Jesus, God etc dont try to confuse yourself here, we are discussing the 5 VERSIONS OF THE KORAN and we are simply asking you to say yes or no to the presentation.

maybe if you open another thread you can bring your discussion up and i think there i will answer you but now ,

[s]@Luvus: Not so fast, man. But you claim, as a Christian is God, right? So check the below out and tell me if Jesus was the God being refered to here, in the two quotes from the Bible. I still have more, but I am testing your embolden faith right now and before long it would not be so emboldened.

Quote
Exodus 32:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [ Or a god ; also in verses 23 and 31 ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."


Deuteronomy 9:7 (Whole Chapter)
[ The Golden Calf ] Remember this and never forget how you provoked the LORD your God to anger in the desert. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the LORD.
Where is Jesus here; the Lord or the God, or both or neither? You have your work cut out for ya!

Answer, because, ain't got all day; Jesus is not either Lord nor God in both verses! If then you guys then magically brought jesus up later as god or Lord, it must have been unreal and it may just be only in title, but not in subsatnce. Like monopoly money, it looks good, but can spend it. Its even worse than Ijebu money!

And for those who are confusing English translation for simple reading, to Qur'an which is PURE ARABIC, you do not know anything about Islam! You are trying to co-mingle Islam with your religion. It just would not work. Qur'an is in PURE Arabic! Yet the Arabs themselves have to learn it, before they can understand it.

Unlike your Injiil, which was revealed, am sorry, inspired, in Hebrew or Aramaic, yet none of you have seen a single one of it, in its originally inspired in language! And the most ancient manuscript that you have been carrying around to show that your Injiil is authentic, can only go so far at least 300 years after the inspirational writing,from the many writers, who we even see their personal opinions in your 'Pure Injiil!'[/s]

Quote from: pahtahkee on January 23, 2008, 07:47 PM
. . .

* an elocutionary delivery of a piece of poetry or prose, without the text, before an audience.


So babs, given the definition of recitation above, what exactly is your point?

He has no point. The point really is that the Muslim claim that 'Allah' sent down any book to Muhammad is a fraud. There was no such "book" - it was all a recitation that Muhammad dictated as he went along.

abeg see breaking down i cant but help smile amusing to myself

Glory to Jesus Christ

@pilgrim.1

Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics?

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.


If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade.


What is the rule if i

@babs787,

How bodi?

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding.

If you don't want to respond to them, please don't force yourself tirelessly. You have been the one arguing on "translations" of the Bible endlessly, and others simply allowed you to continue that game for long. There has to be a time when you need to settle down and apply the same rule of your argument to the "translations" of the Qur'an as well - then you will see how very disingenous you have been all the while.

This is not a "tit-for-tat" game which you often try to play once your gimmicks are dissolved. But my entering into this discussion at all is to make both Muslims, Christians and others understand that there is no reason for Muslims to keep attacking the Bible based merely on the various translations available if the same Muslims in their seething garboil cannot settle down and see that the same "translations" of the Qur'an have even more confusion to the public reader than Muslims have assumed earlier.

It is for this very reason of such callous Muslim hypocrisy that I have since ceased to entertain your pretences. You would notice that I've since stopped obliging you any answers to pretended queries because you never have demonstrated that you had the interest ina  genuine debate or discussion. BUT (and a big BUT), I could not let this one pass by - and that was why I entered this thread to dissolve your shakara.

Just one thing, though. Before you ever try to attempt another attack on the Bible based merely on "translations", take a moment or two and look deep into your own heart. The question you need to settle with yourself is this: what do you gain from attacking the Bible and Christians? It does not benefit you a dot to keep callously spewing your Muslim mendacity on others if you truly have no heart to examine and apply the same rule to your own Qur'an.

babs787:

I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.

In the first place, the idea of trying to "nail" somebody belongs to chidish gabble. That is trash talk. Rather than try to "nail" you, I simply called your attention to something far beyond that, which is: your attacks on the Bible are hypocritical and unfruitful to you personally.

Second, even if I kept out of the Khalifa translation, it still does not change the FACT that the other translations of the Qur'an are as contradictory and confused as the example I gave earlier. Sir babs787, there is a world of difference between "religion, baptism, system, colour, dye" - and these are all coming from the popular translations of the Qur'an by MUSLIM translators and scholars!!

The point at the end of the day has been established - your attention was being called to the same thing you never took time to observe in the Qur'an translations before applying that rule to attack the Bible merely on translations!!

babs787:

What is the rule if i

Did you miss something there?

Shalom.

Around the Corner!

Who pushede you to the Conner?

@pilgrim.1

Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics?

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.

If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade.

What is the rule if I may ask you?

Sura 2 v 138 ~ Which is it:

~ a "religion"
~ a "system"
~ a "baptism"
~ a "dye", or:
~ a "colour"?


Pickthall
(We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah
at colouring. We are His worshippers.

Yusuf Ali
(Our religion is) the Baptism of God: And who can baptize better
than God? And it is He Whom we worship.

Hilali-Khan
[Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allah (Islam)
and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allah's? And we
are His worshippers. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir.]

Shakir
(Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising?
and Him do we serve.

Sher Ali
Say, `We have adopted the religion of ALLAH; and who is better than ALLAH
in teaching religion, and him alone do we worship.'

Rashad Khalifa
Such is GOD's system, and whose system is better than GOD's?
"Him alone we worship."

Arberry
the baptism of God; and who is there that baptizes fairer than God?
Him we are serving.

Palmer
The dye of God! and who is better than God at dyeing? and we are
worshippers of Him.

Rodwell
Islam is the Baptism of God, and who is better to baptise than God?
And Him do we serve.

Sale
The baptism of God [have we received], and who it better than God to
baptize? Him do we worship.

Since you are confused as a result of different word used therein, can you please read the tafsir on that verse and get in touch? When you are through with that, can you also tell if these verses too used same word and meant same thing?

1.
1 John 5 v 7

RSV : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father and the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
RSV: Omitted

N.I.V: For there are three that testifies: the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are in agreement.

G.N.B; There are three witnesses: The spirit the water and the blood and all three give the same testimony.


L.B.V: The verses 6, 7 8 are totally omitted.


2.
Luke 22 v 70


KJV; Then they said,'are you the son of God? He said unto them, 'you say that I am.

N.I. V: They all asked, 'are you the son of God, he said, 'you are right in saying I am.

L.B.V: They all shouted, 'then you claim you are the son of God? And he replied, 'yes I am.



3.
Hebrew 12 v 8:

KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons
RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons
GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards
LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all



4.
Job 13 v 15;


KJV; though he slay me, yet I trust him
RSV; he will slay me, I have no hope
GNB; I have lost all hope so what if God kills me?
LBV; God may kill me for saying this in fact, I expect him to.


5.
Ezekiel 16 v 25:


KJV: and had opened your feet to every one that passed by.
RSV; offering yourself to any passer-by
NIV; offering your body with increasing promiscuity to one who passed by.
LBV: you offered your beauty to every man who came by.


6.
Where was the denial made?

K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch
RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch
Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE
The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY




KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch
RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway
GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage
New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY
The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH



KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall.
RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard
GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them.
The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD


Another post coming shortly.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

What is the rule if I may ask you?

What is difficult for you to understand the simply issue about TRANSLATIONS, babs787? Are you so gifted in being so callous? May God deliver your soul from this hypocrisy.

babs787:

Since you are confused as a result of different word used therein, can you please read the tafsir on that verse and get in touch? When you are through with that, can you also tell if these verses too used same word and meant same thing?

Are the tafsirs based on TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an as well? How do the tafsirs explain the difference between "baptism, colour, dye, religion and system", babs787? Do you care to tell us?

And the many verses you posted - are they not also based on translations of the Bible?

You're really having such a bad day, I can see.

babs787:

KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons
RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons
GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards
LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all

And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below:

[list][li]One of the meanings of "bastard" -

The illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
- by-blow, love child, illegitimate child, illegitimate[/li][/list]

[list][li]that already has the term "[url=http://]illegitimate child[/url]" as of the same meaning! [/li][/list]

You have serious problems babs787.

@babs787,

babs787:

6.
Where was the denial made?

K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch
RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch
Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE
The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY




KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch
RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway
GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage
New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY
The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH



KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall.
RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard
GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them.
The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD

I'm sorry for you! Since you could not find materials to plagiarize, you have now tried to perfect the art of RECYCLING old gist!

This issue about "Where was the denial made?" has been soundly laid to rest previously already - click here and see how bari_kade outlined it for you!

babs787:

Another post coming shortly.

Did you mean to say "another recycled material coming shortly"? Please save them if you have nothing fresh to present. This trash attitude should be way above your age by now!

@pilgrim.1

And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below:


One of the meanings of "bastard" -

The illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
- by-blow, love child, illegitimate child, illegitimate


that already has the term "illegitimate child" as of the same meaning!

Oh I can see that it is only that of Hebrew you saw but do not forget that I posted others too and you can scroll up to read.

You have serious problems babs787.

You can say that to those older than me and those that we may be of the same age in your family. If you dont know or you parent did not teach how to talk or behave towards those older than you, then I think that they must have been biting their fingers going through nairaland and reading your posts full of disgrace and lack of home training.

I'm sorry for you! Since you could not find materials to plagiarize, you have now tried to perfect the art of RECYCLING old gist!

This issue about "Where was the denial made?" has been soundly laid to rest previously already - click here and see how bari_kade outlined it for you!

Good, I love you exposing your fraud. Here is the link for you and please try to bring out where it was explained.

Your friend Gbade.x tried muddling things up and I had to arrange and give him the differences for him to explain but till now he has not done that and you may bail him out if you can.

You may read and catch the gist here if you care

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-29381.224.html

@Pilgrim.1

Neither ideas of abrogation is in the Bible - for God never caused any of His prophets to "FORGET" any verse; nor did He cause them to "SUBSTITUTE" one verse for another. Since this is what Muslims are claiming for the Qur'an, it is no wonder it is self-attested as a "forgery" - because you will not find your definition of "abrogation" in any verse of the Bible.

Your game will never work with. You are saying that God did not cause them to substitute a verse for another but let us read throug these verses to see how true your statement is:


If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)


Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.


Now Jesus changed the rule thus maming us known that they have been told that any man who divorce his wife must give her a certificate but Jesus made us known that it would be a sin to do hence he changed the law:


"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)


Let us read further:

Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)


Now Pilgrim.1, what does the above mean to you? Did Jesus not change the law of Moses?



2.

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

But Jesus had it changed thus:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)


Can you please explain the verses above and did Jesus  not change what Moses commanded them to do?

When you are through, compare your answer(s) with these Quranic verses:

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

As you try to sort out the dilemma of your "forgotten" and "substituted" verses in the Qur'an, could you be so kind as well to help clarify why this particular verse was cancelled from the Qur'an? Here - the references are referring to the same event:

This thread keeps getting interesting but let us read on

  (1) FASTING

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 31, Num. 170:
  Narrated Nafi: Ibn 'Umar recited the verse: "They had a choice
  either to fast or to feed a poor person for every day, and said
  that the order of this Verse was cancelled.

Do you have the missing verse in the Quran with you and please? Can you still tell us who the hadith above was referring to and I will shed more light on what seemed difficult for you?

(2) MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, Num. 57:
  Narrated Anas: The Prophet sent seventy men from the tribe of
  Bani Salim to the tribe of Bani Amir. When they reached there,
  my maternal uncle said to them, "I will go ahead of you, and if
  they allow me to convey the message of Allah's Apostle (it will be
  all right); otherwise you will remain close to me."

  So he went ahead of them and the pagans granted him security.
  But while he was reporting the message of the Prophet ,
  they beckoned to one of their men who stabbed him to death.
  My maternal uncle said, "Allah is Greater! By the Lord of the Kaba,
  I am successful." After that they attached the rest of the party
  and killed them all except a lame man who went up to the top of
  the mountain. (Hammam, a sub-narrator said, "I think another man
  was saved along with him)."

  Gabriel informed the Prophet that they (i.e the martyrs) met their Lord,
  and He was pleased with them and made them pleased. We used to recite,
  "Inform our people that we have met our Lord, He is pleased with us and
  He has made us pleased" Later on this Quranic Verse was cancelled.

  The Prophet invoked Allah for forty days to curse the murderers from
  the tribe of Ral, Dhakwan, Bani Lihyan and Bam Usaiya who disobeyed
  Allah and his Apostle.

Is 'abrogation' the same thing as 'omission'?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

  (3) MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, Num. 69:
  Narrated Anas bin Malik: For thirty days Allah's Apostle invoked Allah
  to curse those who had killed the companions of Bir-Mauna; he invoked
  evil upon the tribes of Ral, Dhakwan, and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah
  and His Apostle. There was revealled about those who were killed at
  Bir-Mauna a Quranic Verse we used to recite, but it was cancelled
  later on. The Verse was:

  "Inform our people that we have met our Lord. He is pleased with us
  and He has made us pleased"

Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

  (4)  MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Num. 421:
  Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet invoked evil upon those (people)
  who killed his companions at Bir Mauna for 30 days (in the morning prayer).
  He invoked evil upon (tribes of) Ril, Lihyan and Usaiya who disobeyed
  Allah and His Apostle.

  Allah revealed a Quranic Verse to His Prophet regarding those who had
  been killed, i.e. the Muslims killed at Bir Ma'una, and we recited the Verse
  till later it was cancelled. (The Verse was 'Inform our people that we
  have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and we are pleased with Him."

Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

@babs787,

babs787:

@Pilgrim.1

Your game will never work with.

You can repeat that until your call for Friday prayer - everyone who has commented so far understands that pilgrim.1 has no games to play here.

babs787:

You are saying that God did not cause them to substitute a verse for another but let us read throug these verses to see how true your statement is:

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

babs787:

Now Jesus changed the rule thus maming us known that they have been told that any man who divorce his wife must give her a certificate but Jesus made us known that it would be a sin to do hence he changed the law

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

babs787:

Now Pilgrim.1, what does the above mean to you? Did Jesus not change the law of Moses?

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!! So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and baptism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

@babs787,

babs787:

Do you have the missing verse in the Quran with you and please? Can you still tell us who the hadith above was referring to and I will shed more light on what seemed difficult for you?

Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident?

babs787:

Is 'abrogation' the same thing as 'omission'?

You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please.

Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" in the Bible as 'Allah' used in his Qur'an.

This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin.

Thank you.

@pilgrim.1

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding!  Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Now, what do you understand by these verses?


It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!!   So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and batism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

@pilgrim.1

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Now, what do you understand by these verses?


It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!! So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and batism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident?

Try to understand everything about fasting in Islam, who to fast, fasting of old people, one who is etc and when you do that, I will explain what you dont know

You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please.

If God did not abrogate any verse, can you please explain the biblical verses I gave you where Jesus cancelled what Moses taught, despite the fact that he said that he didnt come to ABOLISH any law.

Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" in the Bible as 'Allah' used in his Qur'an.

Good, Allah used the word and He also gave reason for that but Jesus said that he didnt come to ABROGATE but did many cancelations which can be found in the verses I served you.

This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin.

Thank you.

Are you running out of point. Bring your allegation and it will be given rebuttal.
Also try to be civil in your discussions. A word is enough for the wise who has ears

@Luvus: Therefore, for any of your 'word,' to make sense, trying so hard to defend the English Bible: go get yourself a Bible, no the New Testament part of it (I want to make your job easier, because you are not a Jew by religion), in the language that Jesus received it. If he did not receive anything, but just began to preach something anyways, go get that 'something,' in the original language, which he preached it! Then I can talk to you, hoping that you are worthy of our dialogue. For me I stand on the truth of Qur'an in Pure Arabic!

[quote from anonymous which Luvus responded to. I think the guy is a Christian]abeg see breaking down i can't but help smile amusing to myself [quote][/quote] don't amuse yourself too much. Please get your Bible in the Original language that it is revealed in and don't just give me of what you get from a greek's most ancient manuscript! I want what came out during the time of the preaching, while his apostles were with him! You will not be amused anymore after see a stark departure in your Bible from what Jesus preached. (Preached meaning he was preaching something, an Idea. Who gave him that Idea to preach?)

Afterall, finally, +Osisi read that the Qur'an was compiled in a Book Bind at the time of Abu Bakr; the man who led the Muslim community after the dead of Prophet Muhammad (as)

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses?

Lol. . . I am not confused, and your effort to try and confuse both terms cannot change anything here.

God did not make any claim of abrogating any verse in the Bible - if He did, please post the verse stating where He used that term as clearly as we read 'Allah' was both abrogating and "substituting" his qur'an here and there.

Just one verse will do. . . and no confusing or dribbling between words.

babs787:

I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

He did not change them; if He did, then I would discuss them, thank you.

babs787:

If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

In many ways, I have shared on this - and the simple reason was that His fulfilling the Mosaic Law was to give them their true meaning.

There is a difference between "fulfilling" a Law and abrogating  or substituting it. Even in civil law, the case cannot be confused. In no instance did Jesus ever claim what Muhammad made 'Allah''' claim in the Qur'an - if you have a genuine argument, please post the verse where Jesus clearly said He was abrogating any verse - in just the same clear way that Muhammad put in 'Allah's' mouth as you quoted from your Qur'an.

babs787:


Now, what do you understand by these verses?

They do not mean "abrogation" or "substitution". It is clear that He was actually stating the full implication of the LAW - which was this:

     (a) love God with all of your being

     (b) love your neighbour as yourself

That was the FULL implication of what He was teaching them, because the Law clearly had these distinctives, but the Jews were applying a legalistic connotation thereto.

Even on the matter of divorce and remarriage where the Lord Jesus Christ used the phrase "Ye have heard. . . But I say unto you", it is clear He wasn't changing, abrogating or substituting anything. One has to first understand the NATURE of the LAW first before trying to interpret them outside their context.

For whatever you may attribute to them, He did not "substitute" nor "abrogate" any verse. If He did, I would like to see where He stated it so as clearly as 'Allah' used those words in the Qur'an.

babs787:

Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not.

I haven't smuggled in any words from "ABROGATION" or "SUBSTITUTE" - you are the one trying to force them into the Bible where they do not exist, and I have offered you again and again to please quote the verse where such terms are used in the Bible.

babs787:

Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

As soon as you defend the challenges I offered. Don't play those mindless games with me, thank you.

babs787:

Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Anyhow you want to dribble it, where do thse terms appear as God stating them in the Bible:

  (a) ABROGATION

  (b) SUBSTITUTE

  (c) CAUSE to be FORGOTTEN

  (d) OMISSION??

Where did God cause any of His prophet to ABROGATE any verse? Muhammad may abrogate the Qur'an for all I care; but where did God in the Bible claim the same?

@pilgrim.1


You are making me laugh here. You are confused just because Allah mentioned abrogation but Bible didnt do that.

Now you tried to explain some biblical verses and I read it that you flopped in your explanation.

There is a difference between "fulfilling" a Law and abrogating or substituting it. Even in civil law, the case cannot be confused. In no instance did Jesus ever claim what Muhammad made 'Allah''' claim in the Qur'an - if you have a genuine argument, please post the verse where Jesus clearly said He was abrogating any verse - in just the same clear way that Muhammad put in 'Allah's' mouth as you quoted from your Qur'an.

Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment?

Keep going in circles and when you are through, explain the biblical verses to me where Jesus changed the teaching of Moses.

Thank you

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

You are making me laugh here. You are confused just because Allah mentioned abrogation but Bible didnt do that.

You can laugh all you want, but please be mature and don't let your post continue to look so pitiful as you have done all along.

The implications of any term you use is important. I'm sure no Muslim would come and say that the word "abrogate" and "substitute" were a mistake in the Qur'an. God nowhere "abrogated" or "substituted" any verse in the Bible - just as 'Allah' in the Qur'an clearly did so!

Since you are so desperate to cover up this conundrium of the ABROGATED Qur'an, it could help your worries if you simply find ANY TRANSLATION of the Bible where God claimed that He abrogated any verse or substituted them!

Allah's qur'an is an abrogated and substituted book, abi? Good.

The Bible does not bear any abrogations. If you can find me those claims where God must have said so, please quote the verse directly and save all the hat-tricks to cover up, thank you.

@all

kia kaai, una no go kill m wit laf ooooh

i wish dis was a live debate on tv it will be interesting but no they wont allow it else so much burning etc

any way thanks seun for bring up this forum and God bless,

@pilgrim.1


You are denying the abrogation in the bible just because God didnt mention it and please my question again:

Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment?

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1


You are denying the abrogation in the bible just because God didnt mention it and please my question again:

Babs787, please stop ducking behind your finger. Only one request I made - quote the verse where God said He abrogated any verse of the Bible - then we take it from there. Don't force those terms into the Bible where they do not exist.

If you have the verse where God made that statement, please post it - othewrwise save the illiterate posts that make us wonder if Islam has only duckers for scholarship.

@pilgrim.1

Babs787, please stop ducking behind your finger. Only one request I made - quote the verse where God said He abrogated any verse of the Bible - then we take it from there. Don't force those terms into the Bible where they do not exist.

Here is my question again:

Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment?

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

Here is my question again:

Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment?

The verse reads:

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I deliberately left the verse as it is without highlighting any word, and I don't see how that verse says that Jesus came to ABROGATE, SUBSTITUTE, or OMIT any verse of the Bible.

The translation I used was KJV. Please check any other translation and let us know any where in the Bible He claimed that He came to ABROGATE, SUBSTITUTE, or OMIT any verse of the Bible. Can you simply do that, babs787?

@babs

haba haba mana, kai sai yenzu ka yarda chai wa al korani ba daiya ba? ( you made me speak in hausa) (haba why all this long turanci (english) u could simple have accepted that the koran has various versions and u will accept the versions of tramslations )

[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][font=Lucida Sans Unicode][font=Lucida Sans Unicode]Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.
[/font][/font][/font]

Now all u out there i therefore deliver a judgement and accepted by all including (olabowale and babs) that we have VARIOUS VERSIONS, TRANSALTIONS, EDITION OF THE KORAN, SO CASE CLOSED _{that is if they will accept}

luvus:

Now all u out there i therefore deliver a judgement and accepted by all including (olabowale and babs) that we have VARIOUS VERSIONS, TRANSALTIONS, EDITION OF THE KORAN, SO CASE CLOSED _{that is if they will accept}

It is not a common commodity for Muslims to understand English - and to ask them to find out the meaning of the following words (abrogate, substitute, translations) is like asking a primary school pupil to sit an exam in Cambridge University!

[b]Quote
1.
1 John 5 v 7

RSV : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father and the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
RSV: Omitted

N.I.V: For there are three that testifies: the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are in agreement.

G.N.B; There are three witnesses: The spirit the water and the blood and all three give the same testimony.


L.B.V: The verses 6, 7 8 are totally omitted.


2.
Luke 22 v 70


KJV; Then they said,'are you the son of God? He said unto them, 'you say that I am.

N.I. V: They all asked, 'are you the son of God, he said, 'you are right in saying I am.

L.B.V: They all shouted, 'then you claim you are the son of God? And he replied, 'yes I am.



3.
Hebrew 12 v 8:

KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons
RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons
GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards
LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all



4.
Job 13 v 15;


KJV; though he slay me, yet I trust him
RSV; he will slay me, I have no hope
GNB; I have lost all hope so what if God kills me?
LBV; God may kill me for saying this in fact, I expect him to.


5.
Ezekiel 16 v 25:


KJV: and had opened your feet to every one that passed by.
RSV; offering yourself to any passer-by
NIV; offering your body with increasing promiscuity to one who passed by.
LBV: you offered your beauty to every man who came by.


6.
Where was the denial made?

K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch
RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch
Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE
The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY




KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch
RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway
GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage
New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY
The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH



KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall.
RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard
GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them.
The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD


Another post coming shortly.[/b]

dear babs

on a serious note, we are not denying that we dont have various versions, translations but we also want u to also accept same that MUSLIMS HAVE VERSIONS, TRANSALTIONS AND EDITIONS. then from there we can continue and we believe since we (including u muslims) have agrreed on that point, then lets continue else u have no bases to accuse the bible as confused etc