The Attack On God's Words (KJV) - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by Chrisbenogor(m): 12:07pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Hey girl how are you? I would like to hear your thoughts on the destiny thread don't want to mess this one up. Cheers. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:13pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@Chrisbenogor, Bros, I'm doing okay. Just chilling this afternoon.  Did you mean this thread? I saw it earlier and thought it was interesting. . . was actually waiting for others to develop their thoughts before I throw in a few bits here and there. Will gladly do so sometime soon, yea? |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 12:52pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
Its a wonderful morning. I thank Allah who preserved my life, to see this very day! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 1:13pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: You don't make sense out of anything, and that's ok because nothing has changed. You're not alone - Muslims many times do not make sense. So there. You started out accusing the prophets of things they never said. Have you washed your dirty mind yet? If that particular dilemma is what is making you restless, what's my worry? As it turned out, you're the same gentleman who cried that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord" of any kind - my response was to show how far you were from reality by showing you that even the Islamic Supreme Council of America actually refers to Muhammad as "Lord". Remember - it is your '[b]s[/b]upreme [b]c[/b]ouncil', not my own! So you can argue forever that they are not muslims. . . what's my worry. Now if Muslims have the cheek to play the hypocrisy of referring to Muhammad as "Lord", why is it eating away at your heart that Christians know Jesus Christ as "Lord"? At least, they do not go about being hypocrites as you guys - and because I could no longer accommodate that hypocrisy, I simply left your Islam for you. Any quarrels about that? Now, when you're done belly-dancing, could you allow my dear littleb to clear his throat and let me know if he's able and willing to answer the only one question I have for him? Thank you. If you can't accommodate that, it is all the more reason why I constantly invite you to stay on this thread long enough to enjoy the fellowship you lack in the Muslim section that is making you desperately travel to this section. Jesus is indeed "Lord", and I don't wait for any "supreme council" to shout that for me from the minaret. Please stay long enough and enjoy. God bless you. . . in Jesus Name.  |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 1:33pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
Dishonesty and lie! Whereever i said it you should bring out to bear! You can't can you, since it is not there! ko ree so wun!
I don't have to cry before you hear me. I am a lion. I roar! Since I am older, my voice is deeper than yours. You will know the diffrerence right away. If a group of people decided to deviate from the precepts set up in the Qur'an and the Ahadith, should Islam, indeed the Qur'an and ahadith be blamed for it? Come on girl. You are not making sense! On the other hand, your Bible fluctuates between reality that God is One and never have been seen by any human, and the fantasy of trinity, reincarnation, human being the exact form of God, and Jesus being he, the cogodship! Oro e sun mi! I think you are itching for a fight. The good fight kinda fight! Pele. A ti go e! See, the a ti here is a majestic pronoun, referring to me alone. I have also read where you use the same a ti for yourself. How come you used it? Ibadan lo mo oo mo layi po! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 1:40pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: Can you explain why it was deleted? I knew you would hypocritically come and deny this afterwards. olabowale: This is a sad "roar" because you are so ignorant of your own ahadith! Did your ahadith not refer to Muhammad as "Lord" - or do you need to be taught the elementary things of your religion? I am so sorry for you: go roar to the Islamic Supreme Council of America, they may teach you why they call Muhammad "Lord". olabowale: You don belleful? Is this all you can do with your lack of peace? I have told you before: if you are never satisfied with Islam, remain here and enjoy! olabowale: Amin. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 1:52pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
olabowale:As it turned out, you're the same gentleman who cried that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord" of any kind - my response was to show how far you were from reality by showing you that even the Islamic Supreme Council of America actually refers to Muhammad as "Lord". Remember - it is your 'supreme council', not my own! So you can argue forever that they are not muslims. . . what's my worry. Olabowale, lol . . . please save the childish attitude and let's talk in simple terms, if you may. Can you answer me these few simple questions? (a) did you never say that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as a "Lord" of any kind? (b) since they actually do refer to Muhammad as "Lord", why are you trying to say that those muslims are not muslims as well? Are you in any position to deny them of their identity as "muslims"? (c) can you tell us why Muslims refer to Muhammad as "Lord" and yet they are restless when they hear Christians refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord"? Just let's talk if you may. No need for all the incoherent "roaring". Thank you. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 2:56pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
Do you have it in the Qur'an where muslims are permitted to call Muhammad, lord? Do you have it in the Ahadith where Muhammad told his companion that it is okay to call him, lord? If you can't find any place to support your silly prepositions, then the incoherence is all yours. Do muslim performs Zina, steal, backbite, etc and each actions they have been forbidden in the Qur'an and ahadith? Yes many do! Can honest mind therefore conclude that muslims call Muhammad lord,except those who may just bear the name, hypocritically and regretfully so! Can we consider this with the part of your Bible that claim Jesus to be god? Or son of god? Can we compare the few, in islam, if any that call prophet Muhammad, a lord, to your 100% whole lordship and sonship you bestow on Jesus, as Christians? We in Islam say that those who in Islam call anyone, including Muhammad, a servant and slave of his Lord, Allah, lord or god, deviants and out of islam. But you are very proud to wera the badge of calling a mere human being, who ate, deficated and behave not differently from human being, god and your lord. By the way I have spoken to a person who is familiar with the North American group you claim to be calling Muhammad (AS) their lord! The person said to me that it is not possible. I think that you and your group, whereever you get the document from, have done a snow job on them! you have doctored the documents. Thats shameful! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 7:30pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@Olabowale, No need for the vexations. I asked 3 simple questions - if you couldn't answer them, I can forebear with you because it has always been the default attitude to assume when you have always evaded issues. Nonetheless, in love and simplicity let me make a few remarks to your reposte above: olabowale: The incoheence is not mine in as much as I'm not the one who wrote the ahadiths where Muhammad is referred to as "Lord". If you don't know, simply say you don't know and nothing will happen to you. However, there are several ahadiths where Muhammad is referred to as "Lord", and that is why I asked you those simple 3 questions. There's no need to be super-reactive because someone is pointing out to you what you have often asserted contrary to clear evidence. If you want the ahadiths to be produced, I'll gladly post them to remind you (and readers), and then you can decide to eat your own words. olabowale: You asked the question, you answered it so well. Thank you. olabowale: This is why I asked earlier: "(c) can you tell us why Muslims refer to Muhammad as "Lord" and yet they are restless when they hear Christians refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord"?" Lol. . . okay, if you're alleging the hypocrisy to the I[/b]slamic [b]S[/b]upreme [b]C[/b]ouncil of [b]A[/b]merica, I forebear. Also, it's quite unfortunate that many Muslim scholars who have referred to Muhammad as "Lord" come under your allegation of hypocrisy and regret, not so? If the moderators would permit, I could give you a very long list of other Muslim scholars, Muslim translators of the Quran, Muslim councils and associations in several countries, Islamic literature and sahih ahadiths. These [b]all refer to Muhammad as "Lord" in unmistable terms both in Arabic and English, and the evidence is not a secret. Are you still going to maintain that those who would be mentioned are regretfully "hypocritical"? Are you upset with me for simply showing you the evidence that removes and wastes your assertions that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as 'Lord'? You were convinced that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord"; but now you don't kow what to do with the shocking revelation that they actually do so. The truth is that reknowned and established names among Muslims are the ones who actually refer to Muhammad as "Lord" - and the evidence could be provided if you care and can stand the shock of the simple truth in that regard. The problem with many people (especially unlearned muslims) is that they have never taken the time to carefully investigate these matters. It has been taken for granted that nobody would notice these issues; but as soon as they are pointed out, it is quite a funny episode to watch the reactions of muslims around the world who are in shock that they never realize these matters. Even the Western world and politicians are easily fooled when Muslims deny these matters - a lot of resources are being spent to cover up the clear evidence; but relax, dear Olabowale. . . truth does injury only to the person who loves falsehood. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 7:31pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
olabowale: At least, Christians are not hypocrites who pretend that Jesus Christ is Lord - they openly confess Him as such, and a true Christian will not deny that confession. If Muslims refer to Muhammad as "Lord" and you allege that as "hypocritically and regretfully so" (your exact words), I can understand why you're seriously in dilemma to compare. The one thing that makes me smile is that you cannot compare such regret and hypocrisy of your muslim brethren to the openness of Christians. olabowale: Olabowale, do you want the list of these muslims who refer to Muhammad as "Lord"? They are not norminal muslims O. . . they are well established and respected names in Islam! Please ask, and in due course I shall serve you the very long list. Would you also be saying that those muslims are "deviants and out of Islam"? I request your simple, direct and sincere answer, thank you. olabowale: Yes indeed - it is very shameful that your friend would deny it, and it is very shameful that the Islamic Supreme Council of America actually referred to Muhammad as "Lord" and you guys are busy consoling your consciences on convenient denials. The simple thing to do was to check out the article - I merely quoted it and changed nothing in the quote. I didn't write or embed that website in anyway - and if you're too ashamed to discover that Muslims of such a respected "Supreme Council" are guilty of your cavil, I don't see how that affects me. The list is ready anytime you need to go through, and remember it includes: Muslim scholars, Muslim translators of the Quran, Muslim councils and associations in several countries, Islamic literature, and. . . sahih ahadiths. My one question is this: if Muslims freely refer to Muhammad as "Lord" why are they upset and disturbed that Christians refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord"? Can you please take care of your own house before you try to school others on what you're largely ignorant about?Shalom. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 7:48pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@littleb, Reminder: pilgrim.1: |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 9:33pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
« #72 on: Today at 07:30:34 PM » And you have not found the wisdom to list a single one! At least I on the other hand, did not have to wait for you to press my hand to quote Mark 12 verse 29! Do the same! A muslim lawyer was telling me that your article, where Muhammad is being called some form of lord, is a lie. A fraudulently concorted material to try to denegrate and relegate Islam to the same level as Christianity by your claim that some muslims have the same general mindset of lordship as the Christians. But then i would not be surprise if we have some demented people saying Muhammad is their lord, anyhow! (A good example of those who call themselves muslims are the nation of Islam, headquartered in Chicago. They used to have an arab man in Detroit who said or they believed that he was the reincarnation of God. Sound familiar?). And all the while, they do not make Salah! They use the Bible to preach. Can anyone call these people, muslims? Maybe persons like you. Yet salah is even less important that declaring that God is One and no one else is lord! If therefore a person says there is a lord apart from what is permissible, Allah the Almighty, can we take him to be a muslim, even if he make salah, Zakah, sawm and hajj? The answer is no! A person who takes another lord and or patron with Allah is not a muslim. If he dies without repentance, and denial of this belief, he will be regarded, by Allah who knows all things, as a disbeliever, even if every human being never knew that he held this belief! Aburo, you are just a time waster. When you are serious, I will reconsider engaging you indialogue! In the maintime, produce verifiable evidences of all your accusations. Use Islamic sources. What the christians say will be definitely dubious, since they are only trying to malign Islam, without any boundary to their effort. They will go as low as they can possibly get, since the end, intheir own bylaws always justifies the mean(s)! Here in America, we have a group known as the 5 or 10 percenters. They believe that they are part god. Sound familiar when you look at the residual effect of christianity or indian subcontinent cultural paganic religions. Afterall, the christians and indeed the Bible have a tribe of gods still running around (the Jews, and from them the human god of the christians)! Will it be too far fetched, if some crazy indians who believe that some children is reincarnate of god, to call any person in the level of Muhammad, some lord? Come on, Pilgrim. You should let me know your Yoruba name. All this pilgrim, or pilgrim.1 ko mo mi laraa, rara rara! Mo kon tie shi raye tie ni o. And a time is coming when I will not even bother to read your piece, even if light yourself up or wrap yourself up in Nigerian Flag!
And I thought you were a smart girl! Sorry. I wo lo faa ti mo fi nfun e lesi bayi o. [Quote] This is why I asked earlier: "(c) can you tell us why Muslims refer to Muhammad as "Lord" and yet they are restless when they hear Christians refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord"?" Lol. . . okay, if you're alleging the hypocrisy to the Islamic Supreme Council of America, I forebear. [/quote] In all my years as a muslim, especially on the shore of america, probably longer than you have been alive, I have never heard of Muslims, calling Muhammad (as) lord! Now it is in your dubious mind that you bring it up! Did you get it from a Muslim website or that of your comrade Keferis? Please give us the website so that we can see it for ourselves. And while you are at it, give us the ahadith details, too. And i havent been shy to quote your Bible's part that says there is lordship of a tribe and from it sons and begotten and first son of god. While other part says God is not like any human and He God has never been seen by any eyes! Now what do you say about that?!
It is not unfortunate that I said what you called "quite unfortunate!" All you have to do is to present the ahadith, because I can't wait to read it and share it with many muslims, around the world! YOu need not ask any moderator for speaking the truth! At least present it and see it any will escoriate you for speaking out! You should have learnt that in your living in England. Remember the house of common that grills the PM, which regularly? And when you fail in your effort, then I will be waiting for you to have the strenth to admit that you have been less than stellar by your farce! The muslims are accused of almost everything, but calling Muhammad lord, is now from you, for the very first time! And you wonder why you are i the wrong camp? No wonder you feel comfortable to go to a begotten son, when the father and mother are not husband and wife, or common law family, etc. If you are a man, and you did not have a liason or some legal or illegal sexual relationship with somebody. Yet you were told that you have a son, not by the mother of a boy, but those who think the boy is special. Will you not forcefull deny their charge? This is why you read from the Qur'an that our Lord Allah the Almighty is direct in denying that He fathered any person, except that He is the Creator of all. This is why He used the humanness of Jesus and his mother to squash the idea that Jesus is a god. This is why He speaks about His uniqueness by not resembling or have anything remote that may make Him look like a human being. This is why, in clear term, that Allah advises against the stubborn continuation of what the Christians are saying. And His warning of the terrible punishment that will be the reward of such evil statements! Read again. I know that you are smart. But your dubious mind is not allowing you to be honest! O ma see o!
You have proven nothing, but wayo. If some muslim organization in America calls Muhammad, I would have known it. I know many people. If the muslims do what you said they do concerning Muhammad, there would have been many newsletter denouncing it. There would have been sermons about it, too. It would have been hot topics within our community! None of these have happened. And your source is very dubious, since your intention is to undermine Islam. See how Allah reveal your evil heart?! Where are you gonna hide when you are the only one in the grave, without the support of your brethrens? Say 1000 years from now. You have to die by then, right?
I am one of those unlearned muslims! However, I know that for 13 years straight, Muhammad preached singly about One Lord God Allah the Almighty! And later on he spoke about no even honoring him so highly that it may lead to any form of deitification, the same way that the Christians have done! And when he died, Abu Bakr had to remind the Muslims a verse in the Al Imran that Muhammad will die just the past prophets, then will you turn back from what he had told you about One God? Interestingly, you left this same religion for a one that says there is (Please count it with me); god the father (thats the biggest of the 3 gods), god the holy spirit (thats the invisible god, but most of the christians or all of them believe he is the least of the 3 gods) and finally the son god (the one that walked the streets of Galille, jerusalem, etc, who also ate and was all the time 100% god and 100% human!). You are an engineering student. Please tell me how a single particle could be 100% of one thing and at the same time 100% of something else, especially the two things never to remotely resemble each others, like isotopes or polymers? I know you are very smart academically. Now tell me what happened to you religiously? Why take off the cap of smartness when it came to religion? |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 11:29pm On Sep 13, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: I had the common sense to ask you if you wanted the list - all you needed to do was say yes. This pretentious gambits you often pull is laughable!  olabowale: That is because nobody ever tried to deny that Jesus Christ is Lord. olabowale: It was not my article, and I'm glad that you found a "lawyer" who is ready to soothe your troubled conscience by referring to it as a lie. If he was worth his onions, he should not be deceiving you but rather checking out the publications of the I[/b]slamic [b]S[/b]upreme [b]C[/b]ouncil of [b]A[/b]merica. Let me remind both of you where to locate a small sample of their confessions again: http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/spirituality-shadhuli.html - all you need to do is go check it out, and stop whinging. olabowale: Lol. . . the typical lullaby of untaught muslim mindset! You don't know a wink of your islamic history, so I can excuse you. olabowale:saying Muhammad is their lord, anyhow! Okay, I see. The "demented people" should definitely include people like M. M. Pickthall - a muslim translator of the Quran who himself referred to Muhammad as "[color=B22222]our Lord Muhammad[/color]" in 1919, yes? Please ask, and I'll refer you to the English translation of his message online which was produced by Muslims themselves. I encourage you to read the original and wake up to your worst nightmares. The problem with you is that you often open your mouth as do some rascally muslims and berate your own muslim brethren before you even have the conscience to examine what they have taught! Why do Muslims often do this sort of thing - castigating their own people? Ha. . . na wah O!  olabowale: Lol. . . Olabowale, calm down. No let fear catch you unnecessary - my list does not even include abberrational groups like that. I'm referring to people who have produced your own Quran translations for your English brethren, people who are respected as "muslim scholars", institutions and Muslim councils where majority of Muslims are identified, and even the sahih ahadiths. Is the nation of Islam your fear? Relax. . . they won't wound you. olabowale: That's what I have always invited you to. Your call, and don't panic eh? olabowale: I can do so, and I hope you can satiate your thirst before it is mistakenly deleted. Note that it is not Christians who have produced these materials but rather Muslims themselves. My pity for people like you is that they will deny what they have produced so that you're left deceived as ever, and then in rage you turn back and call them "demented people" and curse them as best you care - it is not my worry. So stay tuned and sample a few. Enjoy, alhaji egbon!  |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:44am On Sep 14, 2008 |
olabowale: I cannot disparage you for not having heard Muslims calling Muhammad "Lord" - you must have lived in only one corner for too long. I have had the fortune of hearing them calling Muhammad nothing short of "Lord", and it is not any duplicity intended on my part, sir. olabowale: Well, I was going to provide you with a list of published materials by respected Muslim institutions. Fortunately, some of these materials are now found on the internet - by Muslims themselves - so I shall simply satisfy your quest accordingly, sir. A few example: [list][list]-- A Sermon delivered by *Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall* in the year 1919 ‘O people, listen to my words, and understand the same. Know that all Muslims are brothers one to another. You are one fraternity. Nothing which belongs to one of you is lawful to his brother unless given out of free goodwill. Guard yourselves from committing injustice.’ "Those words are from the solemn admonition which our lord Muhammad (God bless him!) addressed to the whole Muslim community from Mount ‘Arafat on the occasion of his last pilgrimage to Mecca – The Pilgrimage of Farewell, as it is called." source: Fraternity of Masud [main webpage: www.masud.co.uk] [/list][/list] *M. M. Pickthall was a Muslim translator of the Quran (The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an (London, 1930). It is remakable that he should have known better to address Muhammad as "our Lord" especially since he was not a novice muslim, having worked as a journalist for Muslim newspapers as well as headmaster of a Muslim boys' school. From a Muslim websites advertizing Muslim devotional pictures, we have the following words on the last picture of the page: http://www.hf.uib.no/religion/popularikonografi/exhib02.html [img]http://www.hf.uib.no/religion/popularikonografi/bilder/17b.jpg[/img] [list][list]. . .In this family tree we find the Prophet's name in the midle of the upper part, with near relatives, wives and children and descendants below. The medallion in the right corner contains the sentence Allah jalli jalaluh, "God, Mighty and Glorious is He!" In the left corner medallion: "The magnificent family tree of our lord Muhammad, God's messenger, God bless him and grant him savation, and the people of his house (his family and descendants)."[/list][/list] From a Sufi published material ('Signs of the Wali ') which is also located online (http://epress.anu.edu.au/islamic/wali/mobile_devices/index.html), you will find in section D - "The Communal Congregation" some of the prayers of this Sufi group which include the following addressing Muhammad as "Lord" -- [list][list]Then please form an Intention (niyat). In my prayer upon the Prophet, may the prayers and peace of Allah be upon him, I have willed to obey Your order, to believe in Your Prophet, to love him and yearn for him and glorify Your power. With Your favour and kindness, accept my prayer and clear the obscurity of my heart, and make me one of your worthy believers. O God, pray upon our lord Muhammad, the illiterate Prophet, and upon his House and all his Companions. Let us recite the shalawat. O God, Your full prayers and complete peace be upon our lord Muhammad through whom our troubles will be settled, our hour relieved, our needs fulfilled, our desires achieved, and our final hour gratified. His holy face will turn clouds into rain. Bless his House and Companions every moment, as many times as the number of everything known to you. source: http://epress.anu.edu.au/islamic/wali/mobile_devices/ch08s04.html [/list][/list] An online digital publication of wordings of one of the plaques on the great wall of the Great Mosque of Tripoli reads: [list][list]The second inscription is set in the eastern wall of the arcade around the courtyard and refers to the completion of the mosque. A plaque of white marble shaped like a trilobed arch on a horizontal band, it comprises ten lines of naskh and reads as follows: "In the name of God the Merciful, the Compassionate, only the one who believes in God and the Last Day shall inhabit God's places of worship [Qur an 9.18]. Our master the sultan, the king, the victorious, the just, the learned, the warrior, the triumphant, Nasir al Dunya wa l-Din Muhammad ibn Qala'un, may God perpetuate his reign, has ordered these riwaqs to complete the blessed mosque, during the governorship of His High Noble Excellency Kustay al Nasiri, governor of the province of Tripoli, may God fortify his victories, under the supervision of His High Excellency Badr al Din Muhammad, son of Abu Bakr, inspector of flourishing diwans, may God lengthen his favor. It was completed in the months of the year seven hundred and fifteen [A.D. 1314-15], may God bless our lord Muhammad. The humble servant of God Ahmad ibn Hasan al-Ba'abaki the architect has supervised [or undertaken] its construction." source: http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=2489 [/list][/list] Another example of a Shiite muslim sect know as the Alawites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawite) confesses the following: [list][list]The 'Alawi profession of faith states: "I testify that there is no God but 'Ali ibn-Talib the one to be worshipped, no Veil but the lord Muhammad worthy to be praised, and no Gate but the Lord Salman al-Farisi the object of love".[/list][/list] [list][list]In addition to the hierarchies, the 'Alawis also revere many prophets and apostles. The total number of hierarchies, apostles and prophets is said to be 124,000". source: http://www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/alawi.html [/list][/list] Now, all the above are merely examples cutting across various sects within Islam so that you can understand that the Muslim confession of Muhammad as Lord is not perculiar to just one sect, but is widely known in the Muslim world. Before my conversion, I have actually heard Muslims referring to Muhammad as "Lord", and no one ever coughed because the mullahs actually encouraged it. The one question I have always asked is why Muslims would have a heart attack over Christians confessing Jesus Christ as Lord when they themselves knew that they have always called Muhammad the same thing - "Lord"?!? Later, if you may, I urge you to read M. M. Pickthall's sermon on that link (or try and find his 1919 sermon - if your mullah will not deceive you by lying that such a document doesn't exist). . . then read through the whole text and especially what Pickthall said about praying to God the Father. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:57am On Sep 14, 2008 |
In all my years as a muslim, especially on the shore of america, probably longer than you have been alive, I have never heard of Muslims, calling Muhammad (as) lord! The following examples were given above: [list][list]A Sermon delivered by *Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall* in the year 1919 Muslim devotional pictures The Sufi "The Communal Congregation" prayers The plaque of white marble at the great wall of the Great Mosque of Tripoli Shiite muslim sect Alawites' confession of faith[/list][/list] . . . all of which categorically refer to Muhammad as "Lord". You may never have heard of any of these groups. . . and I can forgive that; afterall you have always been largely ignorant of your religion and people! I haven't even given you a list yet, rather the above were just samples you can easily find on the internet with their webpages. If you and your esteemed bench-warming lawyer friend can take the trouble to read wide and be informed, then I can oblige you some documents published by Muslim scholars around the world. Those materials may not be on the internet as yet (I am not aware that they are), so you would really have to be open and willing to do intense search on the ground for them. You will then find where Muhammad is categorically called "Lord" by such scholars down through the ages, and then maybe you could begin to be better enlightened about issues you have never known all your life! Best wishes, but once again I invite you to stay in the Christian section long enough to enjoy the fellowship you greatly lack in the muslims section. Shalom. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 1:37pm On Sep 14, 2008 |
Marmaduke, Shiah, Sufi, and Tripoli? Thats the best you can do? These are deviants! Should they not have their deviances? Islam started in Makka and was completed in Madina! You can't show me a group in these two places that are deviants. Marmaduke was a Christian before he became a muslim! The residual effect of christianity lingered with him. Is just like you. I am sure the cleaningness that you got from Islam still linger with you! Just imagine for a moment you were never at any time a muslim, could you have been able to clean after yourself the way you do now, after using the toilet? Absolutely, not. I still hear a taint of Christianity in the way my mother prays for me. Just the other day, i had to correct a former Christian who assumed that he/she is a child of God! Finally, the deviances go to the truth of the prophet's ahadith about divisons of 73. Then about copying the people of the Books even if they imitate them as they enter something like the hole of a lizard! And Allah talks about the Monafiqun of islam. How does a person justify calling anybody a lord, or god or both apart from Allah the Almighty Lord God the Creator, except he/she is a big time Munafiq! I know already that all of the other religions are Kufar and Mushrik. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 2:28pm On Sep 14, 2008 |
@Olabowale, How is your Sunday? olabowale: The many established Muslim scholars, councils and institutions that cut across all these names might as well be deviants, No? Those were merely samples found on the internet in consonance with your request - I have not given you a list of other veritable Muslim publications to send you ona panic trail. The basic noise you have ever made was that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord". Since it was my persuasion that they actually have been doing so, I only gave you the above examples to verify for yourself. Typically, you have not refuted the fact that Muslims actually do so, but your rage is confirming the fact among Muslims. You and your lawyer friend could deny it from now till the end of the millenium, but the fact still remains irrefutable that Muslims have been referring to Muhammad as "Lord". Whether they are deviants or not is left to you to berate them as much as you care; afterall, they are your brethren. olabowale: Should muslims have their deviances? olabowale: That does not negate the fact that Muslims actually refer to Muhammad as "Lord". You are not even in Makka or Medina. . . and your Islamic Supreme Council of America is well aware of the Great Mosque in Tripoli. For these two giant institutions to be practising this same thing about calling Muhammad "Lord" should not be any worry of mine. All you have demonstrated in response to the irrefutable evidence of the fact is to berate them, not refute the evidence. olabowale: Marmaduke was not rejected by Muslims - they welcomed him, heralded him, sat under his sermon and promoted his teachings. No muslim I know to date has ever denounced Pickthall; rather the muslims of repute who sponsored his work even appointed him to work as headmaster of a muslims boys' school. Not only so, they even acclaimed his translation of the Quran as ranked among the finest English translations. Nobody complained about his sermon of 1919 which opened with referring to the prophet of Islam as "our Lord Muhammad" - that is why they published and praised his sermon, translated it into several languages and even put it on the internet for wider circulation. Where is your learned friend the 'lawyer' - has he lost his onions of self-denial yet? I hope he would affirm your brigade of berating muslims who do the very thing that you noised ignorantly without evidence? olabowale: There was no residual of Christianity with Marmaduke, so refrain from this silly dubious theory. That is why I asked you to go read the transcript posted on the internet by muslims and check out what he said about referring to "the idea of Allah’s universal fatherhood". You muslims are a very funny sort! After several decades of heralding Marmaduke as a reknowned Muslim, all of a sudden you guys woke up to see the reality of his sermons. . . and in your small world and two-man brigade, the same Marmaduke has suddenly become a "deviant"?!? My-o-my!! Egbon, what is biting you? |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 2:28pm On Sep 14, 2008 |
olabowale: Hahaha. . . so it is only in Islam that people are supposed to learn how to clean after themselves from the toilet?!? Lol. . . alhaji, you're sounding really desperate now! All this repertoire simply because the evidence has been given that Muslims have always referred to Muhammad as "Lord"?! Ha, o gaa o!! olabowale: Thank God. . . the savour of Jesus Christ is not easy to be forgotten. Enjoy o jare! olabowale: Dear me. . he/she must have reminisced on Pickthall's 1919 sermon! How come you seem to be the only grown up muslim who is largely unaware of that widely circulated sermon sef? olabowale: Oh comon, dear sir! Before Muhammad passed away, it is well known that he borrowed so many concepts from the Biblical faiths. What about the second coming of Jesus Christ - where did he get that from? And where did he get the concept of the "trumpet" in that second coming? Haba. . rank-xeroxing has a long history! olabowale: I also wondered about that; and for the life of me, I still can't figure the contradictions of this very issue in the Quran itself. olabowale: Lol. . the fact remains: Olabowale, you are the one who made noise that you have never heard any muslim refer to Muhammad as "Lord". After reading the evidence to the contrary, I have not seen you refute them. All that has happened is this interesting piece of drama where you're now calling other muslims "deviants". Why now? Anyhow, remain blessed. . . in Jesus' Name. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 12:08am On Sep 15, 2008 |
« #81 on: Today at 02:28:56 PM » I am an ordinary muslim. And i have never referred to Muhammad (AS), as lord or anything more than a human messenger, prophet, servant and slave of his Lord and my Lord! And without what you got in cleaniness, I know how unclean the people from the west are. Where do you live, again? And you must have taking up their attitude, some! [Quote] Thank God. . . the savour of Jesus Christ is not easy to be forgotten. Enjoy o jare! [/quote] And you never have stopped going to the Qur'an! I guess if you were as old as my mother before you left for Kufr, you will still be making Dhikr! You can see how harder is to shake off Islam! At best you are 1/3 the age of my mother! And she knew all along that Jesus was not a god, nor a son of god, but a mere human prophet! [Quote] Dear me. . he/she must have reminisced on Pickthall's 1919 sermon! How come you seem to be the only grown up muslim who is largely unaware of that widely circulated sermon sef? [/quote] A recent revert! Duuh! [Quote] Oh comon, dear sir! Before Muhammad passed away, it is well known that he borrowed so many concepts from the Biblical faiths. What about the second coming of Jesus Christ - where did he get that from? And where did he get the concept of the "trumpet" in that second coming? Haba. . rank-xeroxing has a long history! [/quote] And when next you ate, or slept, or do things that are human, please know that you copied everyone of them from me. The fact of the matter is that I have been alive, many decades before you. I have honed it down. You just copied them from me. How well could you have known anything except that you copied your elder, Olabowale, Now you see how silly your Christian assumptions are? Interestingly, he said Jesus did not die now crucified and also he spoke as a child! Please show me where he copied any of the three from your Bible?! [Quote] I also wondered about that; and for the life of me, I still can't figure the contradictions of this very issue in the Quran itself. [/quote] Contradictions? Please point them out or for ever bite your tongue for not telling the truth! [Quote] Lol. . the fact remains: Olabowale, you are the one who made noise that you have never heard any muslim refer to Muhammad as "Lord". After reading the evidence to the contrary, I have not seen you refute them. All that has happened is this interesting piece of drama where you're now calling other muslims "deviants". Why now? [/quote] our case is like the case of the Mormons, who invented Angel Moroni and Prophet John Smith, in a small cottage i n Upstate New York! Is there any sense it it, since Christianity is bad enough, they made Mormon worse than it! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:30am On Sep 15, 2008 |
@Olabowale, Your reply didn't surprise me and only plays the same tune of a personal disturbance. That is why I asked you what it is really that Christians have done to you that you are never at peace with yourself and yet seeking to accuse them of the very same things that Muslims are openly practising? Even though you may claim that you have never referred to Muhammad as 'Lord', that's okay - I never accused you of doing so. Rather, the one assertion you made that called my attention to set you straight was this -- [list][list]You had asserted that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord".[/list][/list] That has been the gist of our discussions so far; and my replies were to show you that there are so many muslims who actually call Muhammad "Lord". You asked for evidence from websites, and I served just a very few of them. If you endeavour to do a few more searches, I'm sure you will find so many of them openly posted by Muslims themselves! Now, the point actually is simple: not in any instance so far have you ever tried to refute the plain fact that Muslims have been referring to Muhammad as "Lord" - not in one instance! So, my simple question is this: WHY are you so bothered about Christians referring to Jesus Christ as Lord if your muslim brethren are doing the same thing that worries you to death? Is that not hypocrisy of a queer sort on your part? Every other reply you have so far tendered are evasions of this one single thing - and all that is left now is to eat your own words and simply stop making empty noise. You have demonstrated that you have no clue about what is happening in the Muslim world. Regards. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 12:39pm On Sep 15, 2008 |
And I have no need to align mysef with deviants. So I will close my eyes and ignore the noise coming from anyone who says he/she has a lord, god, patron other than God Almighty Allah. Will I be surprise to see a person saying he is a muslim, but does not make salah, but reads the bible instead of Qur'an and wears a big cross around the neck! People label themselves whatever they want. Allah the Almighty has set forth the criterion of knowing what is Right, away from what is Wrong! I am very satisfied with it! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 12:47pm On Sep 15, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: That's okay, nobody is forcing you otherwise. My concern is that some Muslims are quite too hasty to denounce their own brethren simply because they do not agree with them. olabowale: Again, the simple point was that your assertion earlier that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord" was contrary to the facts on ground. They have been doing so - even while I was still a muslimah, I knew Imams who unashamedly did that very thing; and that was why I was concerned as to why Muslims are accusing Christians with restlessness for the very same things that is widley practised in many mosques and Muslim councils. olabowale: Leave it to them - at least, the people you accused have never called you names such as a "deviant". olabowale: Good, so just leave it at that and don't try to force your own vexations and restlessness over others. Enjoy. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 1:23pm On Sep 15, 2008 |
How old are you now? And such a tender age, you have experienced what majority of the muslims have never experienced. I have a man who is 96 in Morocco. The father of a friend. This man had never heart anyone calling Muhammad (AS), lord! No wonder yo left islam, because you were with the wrong company. In all my years in Nigeria annd other places, including America, I have not heard anyone called Muhammad (AS) their lord. There master, yes. Every Prophet and knowledgeable person is called Master (sayidina). The Only True master is God. And that is why in Salah you can not call anyone master, except the True Master, Allah! I am almost thinking that your dubious material where you claim that a muslim called Muhammad (AS) lord is that they may have referred to him as sayidina, and your magicians, the christians whom you copied the material from their website changed sayidina (master) to lord (rabb)! Please show us the arabic text! I read Arabic and you dont! There are many muslims on Nairaland who can read arabic better than me. We want you to us the arabic text, now and not some far away date and time! (And you are using "L" in the lord! I guess you are trying to see if it will stick? No. It will not stick!). |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 4:36pm On Sep 15, 2008 |
Dear Olabowale, olabowale: Please keep your tales by moonlight. You often tender this redundant exculpation of "age" when you have nothing else to bleach your presumptions. olabowale: Is it such a hard thing for your to check those websites and see that it is actually muslims who have posted those documents? Are you so desperate to demonize your own people just because they happen to be doing the very thing you categorically denied on Nairaland? Your attitude is very shameful, to see the very least! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by reindeer: 1:25am On Sep 16, 2008 |
Alhaji olabolwale please watch your responses to this sister here you've been trumping the age card so many times but we all know that hasnt got anything to do with the substance of the discourse. Please lets have your usual researched stuffs, you seem to be getting really 'iffy' on this thread as if she's throwing you off balance. Answer her ok? there are lots of us keenly learning from this thread and we hope to see where this goes ok? ms pilgrim quite interesting reading your posts.I didnt abandon the other thread, be sure i have more questions for you to answer, i always keep an open mind, my questions are borne of my deepest desires to find peace. have a great week all. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by Nobody: 1:38am On Sep 16, 2008 |
olabowale: I'm glad you quickly corrected him, you're not a child of God but a slave of allah. I stumbled on this while studying last night - Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. The children of Ishmael are categorically DENIED any place as children of God. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by mazaje(m): 2:28am On Sep 16, 2008 |
davidylan: How ironic, they didnt choose to be children of i'shmael did they? if god knew that after creating ishmael he will have to desert and condemn his children then why did he create him in the first place? why does the biblical god love afflicting innocent children(generations) with the sins of their parents? what have the children of ishmael got to do with the choice their father made? by the way what did ishmael do wrong in the bible to deserve such course from a supposedly merciful, forgiving and just god? rational and civilized human beings do not punish people for the sins of their parents, why should a merciful, all knowing and a just god do that? Allah does the same to people too i believe, why do you worship sadistic creatures  yet as a christain you are quick to talk about choice and free will, according to your statement the children of ishmael have no choice and free will because they have been condemmed already. . . . christains go around bandying the lies about their god being a loving father, a merciful being when the bible proves him to be a monster. . . . . hitlers laws are far better than some of the hebrew gods laws in the old testament. . . . . . . musulini will never do some of the things the hebrew god of the old testament did to little kids for just being kids. . . . . . . |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 8:16am On Sep 16, 2008 |
@mazaje, mazaje: Try not to get over-reactive. God did not condemn the children of Ishmael. The text referred to in Rom. 9:7 already stated that it was "in Isaac" that the seed would be called - which has already been stated in Genesis 21:12 (- "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called" . The calling there relates to God's covenant with that lineage through whom salvation would come to every nation through Jesus Christ.As to the issue of conscience and freewill, the same epistle of Romans has already addressed it and stated clearly that we are all responsible and accountable for our choices (see Romans 2:15 on the effect of our consciences). To this end, many people who have not taken the time to carefully study the texts become very reactive and ask the question as to the fate of those who lived before Jesus Christ was born. It's a good question, and one that is also addressed in Romans 2:5-16. In that passage, verses 7 and 8 simplifies the divide - there are those who (a) patiently continue to seek good and will be rewarded accordingly; and those who are (b) are contentious and do not obey the truth - a choice to be rebellious. The issue as to being called is open to all: people who respond to that call by receiving the grace of salvation in Jesus Christ are known as God's children; whereas those who make a choice to reject that offer of grace have chosen to disqualify themselves from becoming God's children. It is clear that God did not make anyone expressly for what is being alleged as in your inference. Rather, as is clearly demonstrated in humanity even today, there are people who deliberately make a choice to be rebellious against God, as much as there are those who are humble enough to receive His offer of grace. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by pilgrim1(f): 8:20am On Sep 16, 2008 |
@reindeer, reindeer: I hope he listens. reindeer: I'll be looking forward to your questions and have enjoyed our discussions. Do have a splendid week. |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by mazaje(m): 9:56am On Sep 16, 2008 |
pilgrim.1: pilgrim. . . what are you saying?. . . . you are just speaking english. . . . . |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 10:09am On Sep 16, 2008 |
@Davidylan: Don't make me laugh about your Child of God title. The last I check, God is not from Omo Obanta. Thats the name they call Ijebu Ode people. Your father is from Ijebu Ode. Aint he? Evidently he is not God, otherwise mom would have told you that look, david, your Dad, the ijebu Ode man is God and I your mother is the wife of god! Did you ever heard that from mom? If not, your calling yourself child of God, is a fantstic tale of utterly nonsense. And I waited, and waited throughout the weekend, for nothing from you. God son who lies. LOL, Wayo man! reindeer:« #88 on: Today at 01:25:12 AM »
The only reason that I called her to the difference between her age and mine, is very simple; she had alluded earlier in one of the threads that she has been there (in Islam) and I am yet to get to "there!" Whatever there means. Thats why I had to remind her that I have muslim all my life, and she is even less 50% of what I have spent yet. And her proof of muslims calling Muhammad lord, may be arabic sayidina, which means master. master is not lord, but Rabb is. Thats why you hear people say Rabbina or Rabbana to Allah alone, and seyidina to all persons in higher religious value. But Sayidina is used for Allah, alone in Salah. And no one else. So if I am praying, for example in prostration if I mention Muhammad name , it will simply Muhammad and not seyidina. But when I say Seyidina, it will be Allah, alone. I am not "iffy," in my rwesponse to her. I am calling her on issue, and she has proven nothing but just empty accusations. When i make a statement about Christianity, everyone is already aware that it is in the Bible already. Let me know where a document that I consider a lie is from Islamic sources; Seyidina Muhammad can not mean lord Muhammad! |
| Re: The Attack On God's Words (KJV) by olabowale(m): 10:22am On Sep 16, 2008 |
Reindeer: Pilgrim.1 is using "seyidina," which means master (used for all prophets, companions of all messengers and people who possess good or significant knowledge), as lord. This is wrong and deceitful. Lord is Rabb, in Arabic. It is not Seyidina, which is an arabic word to mean master! I believe as I read the darul of the sufi group that she posted up, above, I understand that she had deceitfully avoided to post the Arabic text! Which is Allahumma selli ala seyidina Muhammad, ! How can she explain that immediately that she claimed that the sufi used lord for Muhammad, the said, "Slave or Servant," but definitely Messenger/prophet of God?! You see the the deceitfulness? |
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