Neoteny, it is. Thought as much.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=176572.msg2863134#msg2863134

ricadelide: thanks for your post.

Your choice of bible stories i found quite interesting. I give it to you though that you said the thread is not about bible (or is it christian) bashing.

It isn't bashing. It isn't even analysis. It's a way of recounting stories. If you've found any bashing, please do point to it.

Most often I think our perspective or worldview does shapen our perception of what we hear or read. In this particular case, it seems that fact is making you miss the most important point. Although christians believe the bible is the word of God, the stories therein are mostly human stories. In fact, the very first story in the bible is one of disobedience.

Are you saying there's no objective way to evluate a story? What about the contextual history of the stories themselves? I'D agree that it should be unfair to evaluate stories 5000 years or more old with current standards of morality, but not when those stories themselves claimt o be the highest expression of morality for all time. Either these stories teach things relevant in contemporary ethics, or not. And, even in disobedience, we could learn a few things. If you set up a 'suspect' in a test in which he stands no chance, and then convict him and exact a punishment on him and all his offspring for all time, how could that be justice viewed from a human perspective? These are stories that've been touted to embody moral values today; how could that be? This is bizarro stuff.

When the subjects of a book are mostly men (i mean that in a generic sense) - all kinds of men - it doesn't always look pretty.

Talking about women, there've been a few really mean bible story ladies; I'm mean, like reaally mean; Ann Robinson's got nothing on them. Good example in point: Mrs. Jael Heber. We'll probably get to that. I don't guess that looked pretty nice either, not with all the blood and stuff.

The beauty that shows up in the mess of its subjects is how evil can ultimately be worked out by a loving God for good, how forgiveness can be meted to seemingly undeserving persons, how those people that did the grossest evils can ultimately recognise their need to rise above it, how some unfortunately end up failing while others rise and stand. These and many others are the lessons that can be learnt.

I'D agree here. But what about those other lessons? Lessons like: justice wouldn't always be served? And that some people, lots oflives actually, can be sacrificed for the greed and indiscretion of powerful men. I don't say there're lessons that couldn't be learnt; we're just looking at aspects not usually mentioned in Sunday school.

Ultimately, we know that they are stories about people just like us,

Not to be immodest, er, nope, David ain't no man like most people. I don't know the people you know, but you'D be on swell of a guy if you had guys like this at church or work. Think David, again. The wife of an officer at war; you don't do that. Get the guy killed while in service; you don't do that. Don't ask God for forgiveness for 9 good nine months; and, c'mon, how'D you explain to a kid that bible hero David had engaged in the delicate business of dealing with 200 adult dicks, for whatever reason, collecting the carefully removed stuff, and presenting them to his FIL to be? You know people who do stuff like this? Bizarro, rica my friend, bizarro.

. . . we see a Samson accomplish more in death than in life, more without his eyesight than with it . . .

Josh had complained that the storeis were getting long, so we could just about get it over quickly with Samson, the son of Manoah and another woman whose name is, as usual, not mentioned. You wrote "accomplish"? Accomplish what? All those suicide-homicides? How's that a good story to teach to children, for example? And this among a people from whom he found the babe he fancied the most? Samson married a pagan; this offence, accordingt o God's law, should carry the death penalty; golden boy Samson, sth of a Hulk Hogan, gets off quite lightly. And there're details and sub plots in all the story. Samson gives good lessons: what're the dangers of being all brawn but little brains? How could foxes be used as torches to burn a field of crops? What do you do when you're pissed? Kill innocent people; do you know people like this? Not a good role model by any standards. Do you see this differently.

These stories have inspired and changed, yes changed lives - my life inclusive- because I've chosen to learn the important lessons and model my life after the heroes whose lives - their failings and their victories - have been laid bare, sometimes even to embarassing detail for those of us who come after them to learn from.

What you're saying makes logical sense; lessons could be learnt from everyone's life stories. But when the bible sets some people up as role models, their failings must be lessons too. And the positives of non-Israelite nice guys ought to be good for study too. This ain't the case, don't you see?
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And, I almost forgot. Samson, the all-brawn-no-brain suicide-homicide criminal we were discussing: he had a thing for foreign/pagan babes. All the Israelite chicks gave him no kicks; yet, he was of the annointed sort, a judge. In fact, an angel announced his birth; how worse could it get?
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@ poster

Wow, there are so many

My favorite is Naomi and Ruth. It is full of love and humility. Ruth was truly a good woman. God blessed her. Ruth was the wife of one of Boaz's relatives. Under the law, women had no legal standing of any kind, and could only be protected under law by their husbands. So, if a man died leaving a wife with no children, she had to seek out his eldest brother and he was supposed to marry her, both to have a child with her in her husband's name (so that the name would live on), but also so she would have protection under the law. The practice is called "Levirite marriage." The problem is that since she was a Moabitess (a woman from Moab), none of her husband's brothers would marry her, so her mother-in-law, Naomi, sent her to Boaz because he was not married and was a successful man, and a righteus man. There is a process of Ruth gleaning in his field, then sleeping at his feet. He was impressed that she a) knew the formal rituals, and b) followed the rituals of the Jews rather than those of the Moabites, who were not God-fearing people. It is not that he was smitten with her beauty, but that she was showing him this honor in they style of his own people. They married, and were ancestors of Jesus.

Peace

Interesting. A Moabitess is an ancestor of Jesus. Works pretty fine.

Now, a question for you. Er, that night Ruth spent at Boaz, what did you suppose happened. Read the text and get back. If pimping was part of the plan, you could tell. And, while you're at it, take a second look at your words: Boaz was first a bachelor, a successful man, and then a righteous man. Er, was that an arrangement based on priority, or sth? And, how come ". . . women had no legal standing of any kind . . . "; this was God's Perfect Law, no?

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@nimshi
The Prodigal Son Luke 15:11-32

Please read and meditate on this scripture. check out how, the father, the older son and the younger son, react to the same situation. Don't be like the older brother who was ignorant of all that was his. Receive all that God has given you with joy. And like the younger son, never forget that no matter how far you stray from God, there will be a heavenly celebration on your return.

Cayon: we'll get to the prodigal son, okay? But let's be done with the Ruth story, which you brought up. The question's still blowing in the wind. Read Ruth Chapter 3. And tell us what you thought happened 

For your convenience; it's all here below; I've left the verses as they were, without emphasis. Hey, you brought Ruth into the discussion, ok? For some asssitance, the question is:

1) that night Ruth spent at Boaz's, what did you suppose happened? 
2) was the older mother Oprah (you know about anagrams, don't you?) a love-vendor, or not?

The Book of Ruth, Chapter 3
3:1 Then Naomi her mother in law said unto her, My daughter, shall I not seek rest for thee, that it may be well with thee? 3:2 And now is not Boaz of our kindred, with whose maidens thou wast? Behold, he winnoweth barley to night in the threshingfloor.

3:3 Wash thyself therefore, and anoint thee, and put thy raiment upon thee, and get thee down to the floor: but make not thyself known unto the man, until he shall have done eating and drinking.

3:4 And it shall be, when he lieth down, that thou shalt mark the place where he shall lie, and thou shalt go in, and uncover his feet, and lay thee down; and he will tell thee what thou shalt do.

3:5 And she said unto her, All that thou sayest unto me I will do.

3:6 And she went down unto the floor, and did according to all that her mother in law bade her.

3:7 And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of corn: and she came softly, and uncovered his feet, and laid her down.

3:8 And it came to pass at midnight, that the man was afraid, and turned himself: and, behold, a woman lay at his feet.

3:9 And he said, Who art thou? And she answered, I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman.

3:10 And he said, Blessed be thou of the LORD, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich.

3:11 And now, my daughter, fear not; I will do to thee all that thou requirest: for all the city of my people doth know that thou art a virtuous woman.

3:12 And now it is true that I am thy near kinsman: howbeit there is a kinsman nearer than I.

3:13 Tarry this night, and it shall be in the morning, that if he will perform unto thee the part of a kinsman, well; let him do the kinsman's part: but if he will not do the part of a kinsman to thee, then will I do the part of a kinsman to thee, as the LORD liveth: lie down until the morning.

3:14 And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor.

3:15 Also he said, Bring the vail that thou hast upon thee, and hold it.

And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and she went into the city.

3:16 And when she came to her mother in law, she said, Who art thou, my daughter? And she told her all that the man had done to her.

3:17 And she said, These six measures of barley gave he me; for he said to me, Go not empty unto thy mother in law.

3:18 Then said she, Sit still, my daughter, until thou know how the matter will fall: for the man will not be in rest, until he have finished the thing this day.

I read this on my job and jot down some points. I'll give you an answer 2morrow

Peace

Nimshi:

Interesting. A Moabitess is an ancestor of Jesus. Works pretty fine.

Now, a question for you. Er, [b]that night Ruth spent at Boaz, what did you suppose happe[/b]ned. Read the text and get back. If pimping was part of the plan, you could tell. And, while you're at it, take a second look at your words: Boaz was first a bachelor, a successful man, and then a righteous man. Er, was that an arrangement based on priority, or sth? And, how come ". . . women had no legal standing of any kind . . . "; this was God's Perfect Law, no?

@nimshi

Please read the entire book of ruth to get the true story. Ruth set an example for us i.e not to have sex b4 marriage. Ruth and Boaz did not have sex until they were married. Its plain and simple in the Bible. So please don't try to insuniate that Ruth had sex with Boaz b4 they were married.

Peace

Nimshi I want to teach sunday school today,
Topic of the day: morality and the bible a case study of the life of moses.
Can someone lead us in praise and worship.

Cayon:

@nimshi

Please read the entire book of ruth to get the true story. Ruth set an example for us i.e not to have sex before marriage. Ruth and Boaz did not have sex until they were married. Its plain and simple in the Bible. So please don't try to insuniate that Ruth had sex with Boaz before they were married.

Peace

Er, ok. But there's the problem of the full text of Chapter 3 of the book of Ruth.

And no, I only asked what you thought happened. Where's your thought about that?

What did Ruth do with Boaz, or, what was that about Boaz spreading his skirt over Ruth's hand? Look, the situation is almost literally complete; perhaps you have a transcendental understanding of what happened? Share, Canyon, share

Chrisbenogor:

Nimshi I want to teach sunday school today,
Topic of the day: morality and the bible a case study of the life of moses.

Chris, please fire on. Moses is always an interesting figure, though the way he summarily executed that Egyptian guy and took to flight has always been - well - fascinating. The things people do for the sake of God!

Can someone lead us in praise and worship.

Not sure you'll get any takers on that; but right now, there's a pastor on TV pontificating about the resurrection fof Lazarus. Fascinating, this sotry.

Anyways: Moses. Ball in your court, or, well, You on the Pulpit.
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Ok people we all know about General Moses, well at least some people think they know.
What we are going to do is to look at the actions of moses and see if they pass the standards of a benevolent God that loves all of his creation.
For the sake of keeping us focused we will not dwell too much on the atrocities of the ten plagues( if they happened), poor egyptians if only pharaoh had let the hebrews go then they would not have those horrible things happen to them, but wait a minute is it true?
Exodus 4: 21-23 tells us that God hardened the heart of the king!
21And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, 23and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me." If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.'"

So in summary the whole ten plagues was scripted by God and stage managed by Moses. Interesting that almost after every plague God had to renew his strong hold on pharaoh because left on his own the poor guy wanted to let them go. As kids we were often taught that we should not be stubborn little did we know that God was the one who hardens hearts or that of pharaoh's at least even if we did it always seemed insignificant.
Sadly this sick game ended up    costing the egyptians their first born son's both human and animals. Even animals, really sad that the  mass genocide of killing little children was the celebrated feast of passover if memory serves me right even Jesus partook in it, maybe not his fault as he had to do Jewish practices and he ordered them in the first place. God did not stop there he again hardens pharaoh's heart after the hebrews left (they took all the jewelry and livestock of the egyptians with them) only to have them annihlated in the red sea in a show of the might of the lord. It is suprising and really shocking that after those great stunts( or miracles if you have no feeling for the people that felt the wrath of God's anger after hardening the heart of their king) that the hebrews even thought of having another God after moses went up the mountain for just forty days even though the mountain was visibly covered with the presence of God that anyone who went near it was sure of a certain death!
So moral lesson of the day is this question
WILL THE TEN PLAGUES PASS THE MORAL STANDARDS SET BY CHRISTIANS TODAY?
IS THERE ANY MORAL LESSON WHATSOEVER TO BE LEARNT FROM THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILDREN?
IS IT MORALLY RIGHT THAT THIS GENOCIDE WAS AND MAYBE IS STILL CELEBRATED TODAY?
That's enough to chew for now ,we will move to the others in a while stay tuned.

@Nimshi
I did not want to even raise the issue of why a prince who murdered someone in anger would have to run, very very very suspicious indeed and come to think of it even reuel's daughter's thought if was egyptian when he got to midland. So why the flipping heck did he run? Anyway there's bigger fish to fry do you think I should be adding these verses I just think it would make the story long and boring, we kids always prefered the stories to the quotes.
Anyway I will do so when I need the effect any one with qualms should ask.

No answers yet just great, anyway we are moving forward, the Isrealites finally make it out of egypt by the awesome power of the lord.
But wait moses is trying to deal with all the disputes and complaints, the hebrews proved to be more stubborn than he had bargained for even after all they had seen happen in egypt, I dare say that if christians of this day saw just 2 of those plagues they would never ever doubt God at all. They complained and complained as if their chances were better in egypt, maybe they thought so afterall pharaoh was dead. Anyway the time came when moses had to go up the mount sinai to get these blockheads a constituion. When he left they could not wait any longer, I mean how was one supposed to survive in a wilderness without a God of some sort so who better to go to than moses's brother aaron! It seems the business of God runs in the family, so he asks then to bring their gold and he makes them a golden calf to worship. This part of the story was always skimmed through        with speed, I will repeat it for emphasis aaron produced the calf, why would he do that ? Did he not have the fear of the lord init?
So God informs moses that his people had goofed again, moses jumps  up and races down the mountain on reaching there it appears the lord truly can be in more than one place at a time, moses is angry and smashes that which had taken God 40 days to craft, talk about a mean temper.
Exodus 32:20 tells us of moses's next line of action
"he took the bull calf which they had made melted it and ground it into fine powder and mixed it with water. Then he made the people drink it."
The picture of men women and children drinking water mixed with gold by force is nauseating, I believe that act would classify as torture in today's world but why is this part of the story always skipped?
Moses then consults aaron as to why he made them commit such terrible sin, because aaron was to blame he of all people in the camp would have known better, maybe God hardened his heart who             who knows.
Moses is now at boiling point, one that we will see often as our stories go on, he goes to the gate of the camp and shouts "everyone who is on the lord's side come over here" and the levites gathered around him. What happens next is found in
Exodus 32:27
"the lord God of isreal commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through this camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers friends and neighbours"
The blood hungry levites agreed and killed 3000 people that day.
Now for the sake of getting how gross this is I want you to drop your bibles and travel with me back through time. Imagine you are on the top of the mountain watching this act take place, how many blows would it take to kill a human being? I bet you would be saying that a quick blow to chop off the head should be quick but is it really so, would the three thousand have sat back and allow themselves be killed? I doubt so it is definitely going to be messy, we are talking murder on the scale of the World trade       centre attacks, only this time flying planes or falling buildings were not used but swords, machetes. Gross really gruesome.
So moral study questions
1.WHY WAS AARON NOT PUNISHED, HE WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE'S CHOICE WAS THAT MORALLY IN MORAL SYMMETRY WITH THE FATE OF THE WORSHIPPERS. 
2 What do you think about the killings? Right or wrong?
Take your time mull over it part three is coming right up!

Chris,

this, one must accept, is one of the main issues confronting traditional Christians.

Can they look at the bible stories and tell God, Yahweh, to His face that they understand these things differentely today? I think this can be done without being rude: God, I understand you're Holy Gracious and plentiful in Loving Kindness, but I don't just get the treatment of the Egyptians, how could you do that? I don't think God will be annoyed.

Now, Moses; you mention some points:
1) That he was a prince; true. And a quite well-eductaed one at that. Living and growing up where he did, he must have had lots of opportunities. Might it be that he ran away because he understood the implications of his murder: the prince - who's an Israelite, really - murders a native Egyptian? Just an idea.

2) Aaron and the Golden Calf: it appears Yahweh only introduced himself to Moses in Exodus Chapter 3; the Israelites have probably yet to get used to this God. He may have just rescued them from the Egyptians, but they certainly aren't going to easily abandon all other Gods. The speed with which the materials for the Calf were collected suggests the idea was not completely alien to the Israelites. And yes, Aaron, being chief Calf-maker, deserved much more than he got. A clear case of a miscarriage of justice.

3) The 3,000 killed: the murderous crowd did only slightly better than Osama bin Laden and his thugs. The forceful mix of water and gold: of course, this is torture, and it is inhuman and unworthy of a holy God; but then, Yahweh was only beginning to polish his reputation for toughness.

It is amazing that these horror stories are taught to children, and these men are presented as role models.
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@Nimshi
You are right they have a lot to answer and so far they have been cold turkey on this thread, I know they would not admit it on this forum but the truth about this stories will gross anybody out! You know I was talking to a work buddy at the office who had been going on and on about william braham to the other workers, I left them until he said to them like the orator he thought he was, what will you do when you see Moses coming down with Elijah. I just said I will tell him he was a mean bastard.
No be small thing oh on friday e be like say hurricane IKE hit the office if you see how all of them begin attack me, so simply I said guys whip out your bible lets meet the real moses by the time I was done I was shocked how many of them did not know these parts of the story, some knew but somehow miraculously could not ask their pastors about the gruesome murders.

@Thor
I dey feel you jo I have read the whole series really fascinating lady that J K Rowling, don't forget how the Christians were quick to attack her . Talk about Log in the eye.

@all
Part three is about to get rolling, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, stay tuned.

The ten commandments and instructions given to Moses by God, hmmmmm very controversial today in fact you will only find a few handful of Christians who will say they no longer practice it, whether they should or not is not the issue today, our aim is ask ourselves once again if the punishment for failing to keep this commandments are anything but simple barbaric Jungle Justice, and for those who would scream the commandments at people who they think are wrong, why do they not practice the punishment part, I wonder.

First I will like to point out to you the treatment of slaves, tired and worn out argument on this forum but in the light of the character in study today I think a mentioning it is worth it. Here is what God commanded Moses to do about slaves

Exodus 21

2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4[b] If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.[/b]

I hope I do not have to brush you up as to the evils of slavery, most of us are Africans and we know better, this is a command from God our duo have done it again, what a commandment, how many of you buy slaves today?
Just incase you are thinking oh no they were just servants used to serve the line about them being the property of the master should jolt you back to reality, these people were held against their will and had no rights as normal human beings did whatsoever. How did I come to the conclusion, really simple from the bible

Exodus 21: 20-21 gives me the backing
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Can I hear anyone saying if it is in the bible I believe it, do well to say so here we see clearly that God says a slave is your property, difficult as it is to understand but it is there, in black and white or in bold red here on nairaland .

Just a little preview, the punishments for the ten commandments are coming up next, stay tuned.

The Ten Commandments

Most people focus these days on commandments 6, 7 ,8, 9, and 10 they tell us not to steal, not to kill, not to commit adultery and not to lie, the one thing you can find common to these commandments are that human beings should treat each other with respect, very good commandments indeed. Unfortunately this human respect is not fundamental to all ten of the commandments, the fundamental theme of the commandments are

Obey and worship God, or else,

Lets start at the beginning with commandment number 1 and 2
1 We are to have no other god's except God
2. Worship no god but the Lord

Clearly we can see if you are breaking number 2 you are breaking number one also, these commandments look easy on the eye but if we dig just a bit deeper we will see that Gods people were instructed to kill you if you went against any of them, where you ask

Deut 13:6-9
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people0 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God.

God was not messing around here, those who went against this were to have a stone bath, talk about sick , thats what God ordered the people to do, you were the one to start the killing if the guilty one was your wife or you children. How is that for Moral values, these are the penalties for not following the first two of the ten commandments.

Next commandments coming right up!

Commandment number three

Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

God doesnt mess around when he says something and a young boy was just about to find out, our punshment story is taken from
leveticus 24

10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.

13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. [/b]The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

and true to his word as always we see the action that was taken out on the boy in verse 23

23 Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, [b]and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the [color=#990000]LORD commanded Moses.[/color]

Commandment Number 4
Remember that thou keep the sabbath day holy

Maybe some people are already hoping that at least something will change in the degree of the punishments but I have got bad news for you it doesn't

Exodus 31
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

Why are these parts skipped in sunday school? oh yes I know it would definitely gross the kids out.

A case study
Numbers 15
32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Is this thread locked no Christian replies, talk about honesty

. . . guys whip out your bible lets meet the real moses by the time I was done I was shocked how many of them did not know these parts of the story, some knew but somehow miraculously could not ask their pastors about the gruesome murders.

This situation, being somewhat spellbound to see what one only wants to see, happens in church every time. The pastor quotes a verse, perhaps some wonderful verse about a fellow like Moses, and he reads it out loud, people nod and shout "Aeeeemmmeeen!"; and you're wondering: what's up with these people? Didn't you see the preceeding 5 verses? What about the next 6 or so verses? Does context matter at all?

But you know there's some hope for the human race when you watch their reaction the first time they encounter these: silence, anger, annoyance. Of ccourse, they could get home and rationalise these, butt that first human reaction is priceess; the emperor has no clothes afterall. The sweet romance with the prophet is done. Yet, this Moses is called the "meekest man on earth". Who need violent men with meek men like these?
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