@MALAMA,

I shouldn't take much of your time, as I have an early day tomorrow as well - and a busy one at that.

MALAMA:

Pilgrim,
the day is far spent and I'm really tired. Before I go to bed,a few words from me. The Levitical tithes is part of the Mosaic Law,which is more than the Decalogue i.e. 10 commandments because it comprised of 613 laws. My mistake calling it a 'law of tithes'. I meant the commandments on the different forms of tithes in the Law.This is an interesting development from you in defining terms as exactly as they were meant to be. It's just that you didn't show such exactness in the definition of 'tithes' .

Grace would serve us the fortune of seeing the true meaning of tithes with time.

MALAMA:

Of course Judaism did not originate from Abraham, I never hinted it at all. I also never hinted that Gentiles are under the Law. All I was trying to say was that if God thought Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek was worthy of emulation, He could have brought it to the knowledge of Moses for him to encourage the children of Israel to emulate.

And the reason why you don't find it so is simply as I have shared earlier.

MALAMA:

Are you saying that Galatians 3:17 talks on the tithe of Abraham before the Law came years after and that the Law cannot annul this covenant? If you are, in that case, you are making a humongous mistake. The covenant under discussion was the promise that God made to Abraham that his seed ( Jesus) would inherit the promise and the blessing.

What I pointed out with galatians was to help you see that what the Law did not originate in this instance, it could not annul.

MALAMA:

And it is through Jesus that we Gentiles and Jews i.e. spiritual offspring , who have faith in Jesus receive this promise. Inheritance of this promise is done through FAITH.
The Law claims that by it's observance people would be saved i.e. salvation is of the Law. From here, Paul contrasts the two i.e. faith and the Law, saying that the Law which came in 430 years after the promise of God cannot disannul God's promise to Abraham where salvation is by faith and unconditional, not by works of the law which was based on its obedience.

Well, please correct me on this one, but not a single time would you find the Bible teach that salvation was of the Law. Not a single time.

MALAMA:

The covenant of the promise is superior to the Law. God who had promised to Abraham would keep His promise and bring it to pass and has done so through Jesus. This verse did not even border on tithes. I encourage you to read the whole chapter so as to get the whole picture here.

I read the whole chapter, but my point was to show you that the Law could not annul what it did not originate. Tithes preceded the Law; then it was incorporated into the Law; and after the dispensation of the Law, it was never once condemned. For those who assume that it was annulled on the basis that we are no longer under the law, the question was: when were Gentiles under the Law to now claim that the Law had made tithes redundant?

MALAMA:

Non-tithers are not condemning tithers.

They are. An example given already.

MALAMA:

This is a free world so we all are entitled to our decisions. What we non-tithers are saying is that the bible is replete with examples to show us that we christians are not obligated to tithe. If anyone tithes, it is because they either do not understand that tithing is unscriptural for christians or that they have decided to make a personal decision to tithe . Such decisions should be as they are- PERSONAL DECISONS and not God's injunctions for us christians.

See, this is what I don't get from non-tithers arguing this way. First, nevermind the ignorance of some people on either side, the question is: who actually is speaking of tithes as obligatory? Second, who made tithes unscriptural? If people make the decision to tithe, then non-tithers who do not want to do so should not be legislating for those who tithe and dismissing what they don't understand - because quite often, what I have read on many account are assertions that simply have no answers in the Word.

MALAMA:

Ehen, before I forget, when will u come up with a demystification of the 'mysteries of the new covenant'? Till then, I've got to get my beauty sleep now. Borrowing the words of Elechi Amadi, 'may the day break' .

Lol, dear MALAMA, I hope to share on that and more soon - a very busy day for me tomorrow; so possibly weekend, when I shall also be looking at the real issues underlying the misplaced war of words over tithes in many quarters. I apologise for this rather slow approach I adopted recently - as several people before TV01 have been disinclined to doctrinal aspect of these matters, I decided to slow it down and see how long they could keep up on their recommendations.

Very sweet dreams. Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

@MALAMA,

Grace would serve us the fortune of seeing the true meaning of tithes with time.

Now I see why you have been going back and forth all this while yet unable to define and differentiate between tithe (a tenth= 10%) on one hand (OT requirement) and other gifts such as offerings, vows, pledges, donation, project etc (unspecified proportion= any %) on the other (NT requirement).
Maybe you really need that 7Up you referred to recently before, during and after re-reading all the 59 pages of this thread and your replies to appreciate how this basic understanding would have served you very well.
Shalom.

MALAMA:


As a non-tither, God has blessed me 'repete'tiously in all forms and I'm happy to be used as a conduit by Him to bless others.

Many thanks for the above, which is also my situation since almost two years now. God not only continued to show His blessings on me in all areas but even more than when I was paying the pastors' oft-repeated tithe (a tenth [10%] specific requirement.
Thank God I am free and I am free indeed in the sacrificial blood of Jesus.
I continue to give to the church I attend as I see necessary and led by the Holy Spirit any, unspecified and varying proportion of my income while supporting the needy in my extended family and society including intenational NGOs and charities (with poverty impacting programmes in Nigeria) and the Gideons to distribute the Bible so others can have their personal understanding of the redeeming knowledge of Christ's life and teachings as well as those of the Apostles, which should be the litmus test of the "super-annointed" men of God today.

@anonimi,

anonimi:

Now I see why you have been going back and forth all this while yet unable to define and differentiate between tithe (a tenth= 10%) on one hand (OT requirement) and other gifts such as offerings, vows, pledges, donation, project etc (unspecified proportion= any %) on the other (NT requirement).

To be honest with you, I haven't been going back and forth on anything. What amazes me is that no matter how many times I have clearly outlined the differences in these matters, blind bats like you will never see it! And that is why I keep going back and forth endlessly repeating myself on the same matter after clearly outlining them. If you don't agree, you can lay out your disagreements by clearly going to Scripture and discussing, not hyperventilating and trying to discredit someone else's inputs with your under-utility grade hootings. This is why I refrained from going back quoting references until you guys push yourselves to make me attend upon your repostes with a no-nonsense attitude. If you want to discuss the subject, please do. If otherwise, please invite what you can't handle and let me once again bleach your sanctimony.

It does not come as a surprise to me that you're playing this footsy on "proportions (%)" after you guys tried to discredit the "(%)" I initially pointed out. Tithes may be traditionally defined as 10%, but a closer look shows that it is not always 10% - and I simply showed the various inputs to that. If you refused to see it, no worries. Besides, after some of you dismissed that there is any "requirement" for Christians, what are you doing with the idea of "NT requirements" in your quote? Do you guys mind trying to be consistent at all?

anonimi:

Maybe you really need that 7Up you referred to recently before, during and after re-reading all the 59 pages of this thread and your replies to appreciate how this basic understanding would have served you very well.
Shalom.

Thank you - I started following the thread before starting out with two basic questions. Those who know about this can testify to that. If you just jumped in the middle, wouldn't it have been easier and better that you tried to follow the gists that have gone before your arrival?

Anyway, thanks for the reco. . I just hope that you offload yourself of this pretences and be more genial when next you seek to point out an issue.

Cheers.

@Anonimi
I am really intersted in spreading this truth about tithes to the millions of christians all over the world who are being held under the yoke of tithes through scriptural manipulation. I believe as christians we owe it to our christian brethen to tell them the truth and not not find vague & opaque scripture to justify it like some people are wont to do even after it is so glaring that the false doctrine as no place in christianity. How best do you think this truth can be spread amongst the christian community?

anonimi:

Many thanks for the above, which is also my situation since almost two years now. God not only continued to show His blessings on me in all areas but even more than when I was paying the pastors' oft-repeated tithe (a tenth [10%] specific requirement.
Thank God I am free and I am free indeed in the sacrificial blood of Jesus.

Anybody can make subjective statements in public. There is a simple test to all this shakara. Challenge yourself to consistently give just 11% (not a compulsion, just a challenge) besides other givings - and let's see whether you would not protest! We often boast of giving more than 10% - so why should this 1 out of 10 be so grievious to us and yet we are at liberty to testify that we still give in church?

What really is the difference if one gives 10% and castigates the pastor who receives it, and that same person gives above 10% to another pastor in another church? The difference is that while one pastor calls it the dreaded word ["tithe"], we run away from there and go to another pastor who uses another more relaxed term [vow, freewill offering, donations, pledges, project] to draw the same money from your pockets! Is that not amazing? This is the drama among many believers - 10% is a dread; but if another pastor uses another term to draw more than 10%, we call that "freedom". May God help us all.

This is why I have often said that "tithes" are not the real problem. Hypocrisy that fails to recognize our misplaced arguments and ill-defined allegations against other pastors has been the root of all the declensions about this subject. Many people may give tithes out of a misunderstanding of what it points to, and many pastors who don't know what it means have sadly used Malachi 3 to curse non-tithers. We should not be reactionary and join every single pastor who teaches on the subject together with others who abuse this ministry! Even in the OT, people have abused this ministry as well - so there is nothing new here.

Bless the day when we all see exactly where the problem is and then try to embrace a balance instead of extremum. Tithes are not the bane of Church life; go and find out what some pastors and ministers are using to do even greater damage to believers - and then it will become clear the losses we suffer by making ourselves victims of needless arguments.

Shalom.

KunleOshob:

I am really intersted in spreading this truth about tithes to the millions of christians all over the world who are being held under the yoke of tithes through scriptural manipulation. I believe as christians we owe it to our christian brethen to tell them the truth and not not find vague & opaque scripture to justify it like some people are wont to do even after it is so glaring that the false doctrine as no place in christianity. How best do you think this truth can be spread amongst the christian community?

It would be a pleasure to serve in telling the truth to people without the pretences and unjustifiable sanctimony we have seen from some of those who hold a non-tithing conviction. There are those who tithe, not out of a feeling of strain under any yoke - but for non-tithers to be often legalists and use this same issue to castigate other people is not the same thing as "telling the truth" - that is wickedness. I am determined to call that same attitude and expose this religious garb that pretends the Christian ministry was made to use Scripture as a baton to castigate all ministers just because you don't agree with what they teach on the subject.

pilgrim.1:

I am determined to call that same attitude and expose this religious garb that pretends the Christian ministry was made to use Scripture as a baton to castigate all ministers just because you don't agree with what they teach on the subject.

My dear pilgrim.1, to the best of my knowledge you have repeated several times that you don't tithe base on "LAW" that your tithing is based on the Priesthood of Melchizedek( which is not required of christians) To the best of my knowledge most pastors i know who preach tithes preach it based on the law (malachi 3:10) now we are all agreed that christians are not mandated to tithe under the law. We also know that most christians that tithes are doing it under this wrong notion. So what is the problem with telling people the truth about tithes backed by scripture mind you i have not said i would ask anybody to stop tithing i just want people to know the truth, if after they know the truth they deceide to continue, all well and good.

Dear KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

My dear pilgrim.1, to the best of my knowledge you have repeated several times that you don't tithe base on "LAW" that your tithing is based on the Priesthood of Melchizedek( which is not required of christians) To the best of my knowledge most pastors i know who preach tithes preach it based on the law (malachi 3:10) now we are all agreed that christians are not mandated to tithe under the law. We also know that most christians that tithes are doing it under this wrong notion. So what is the problem with telling people the truth about tithes backed by scripture mind you i have not said i would ask anybody to stop tithing i just want people to know the truth, if after they know the truth they deceide to continue, all well and good.

Dear, here's the problem with what many people don't understand - but first, I would like to appreciate your calm and reasoned response there.

Now, let me point out why this subject in itself has drawn my unrelenting interest. Many people do a lot of things for the wrong reasons and on the wrong basis - and this happens on either side of the divide. A few of them to bring this round:

● many people tithe for the wrong reasons and on wrong basis

● many people condemn tithes, tithers and tithing on wrong bases

● many pastors teach tithes in the Church on clearly wrong notions

● many non-tithing pastors disavow tithes on untenable basis

● many people even preach Christ on wrong motives and bases

● many people have tried to know just what the Word teaches on these matters
and just what to do in the freedom of the new covenant and by the leading of
the Holy Spirit.

I believe that the penultimate one is where we all have been striving to attain, and we acknowledge that it is no small feat. It is my conviction that on either side, many of us have been wrong, and then as we take the time to identify just what may be wrong we shall also be drawn to see just what may be correctly Biblical. It does not mean that we shall all be agreed on everything, but the areas of uncertainties should not (IMHO) be used as battering rams against one another.

So what now?

► Do I believe that the wrong notions should be exposed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that some of these wrong notions are still being taught? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that Christians should be mandated to tithe? Absoluetly NOT.
Why not? Because the ministry of tithing and giving is not a matter of compulsion,
mandate or forceful demand - and I believe we are all agreed on that.

► Do I believe that tithers as Christians are mightily blessed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that non-tithers who give other ways are blessed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that non-tithers are cursed? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that tithers are cursed? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that the NT teaches that Christians could tithe? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that all tithers are going down the road to Hell? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that every teacher of tithe is correct? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that every opposer to tithes is wrong? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that we can strike a balance between these extremes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that this balance is a weak cop-out of my position? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that some of these pastors have used tithes to
place a heavy and grievious burden on Christians? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that we should just let these heavy burdens continue? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that pilgrim.1 is the most accurate on these matters? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

► Do I believe that there is hope for us all to see the real meaning
of the ministry of tithes in the NT - whether it is not taught there
or it is actually taught there? Absolutely.


I could add another 65 points highlighting these simple matters, and I thought that if we took time to look at them in a balanced way, there's going to be great benefit for us all - even where pilgrim.1 is shown how wrong she may be on several counts! I'm most persuaded of the veracity of tithing for Christians; but over and above that, I truly am persuaded that whatever my passions are, they should not be used as standard for every Christian to follow. Again, it is not my persuasion that non-tithers should go about castigating anybody - they should simply speak the truth and leave the judgement in God's hands!

Would it help if we all calmed down and seek to discuss without disaffection one way or the other? I apologise that many people on the opposing side may sometimes see my repostes as firm, tough. . or even harsh and personal: such things were not intended out of hand. However, even among some of us who tithe, we still have areas where we strongly disagree and we have learnt to contain it all (just like we all disagree on most other Christian doctrines). I would like to make friends and discuss amicably, whatever the outcome - but why are we so quick to be dismissive on other people's inputs just because we don't agree with their submissions?

May God help us all to be quite accommodating to one another in the love of Him whom we trust to serve in dignity, love and respect.

Many blessings and hugs.

pilgrim.1:

@anonimi,

To be honest with you, I haven't been going back and forth on anything. What amazes me is that no matter how many times I have clearly outlined the differences in these matters, blind bats like you will never see it! And that is why I keep going back and forth endlessly repeating myself on the same matter after clearly outlining them. If you don't agree, you can lay out your disagreements by clearly going to Scripture and discussing, not hyperventilating and trying to discredit someone else's inputs with your under-utility grade hootings.

Nne, I bin think say u be Xtian oh! Did you actually use the words highlighted above or do you wish to edit them now?

To be honest with you, I haven't been going back and forth on anything. What amazes me is that no matter how many times I have clearly outlined the differences in these matters, blind bats like you will never see it! And that is why I keep going back and forth endlessly repeating myself on the same matter after clearly outlining them

.

Which one do we take- the "I haven't been going back and forth" or the "how many times I have (skip)  keep going back and forth endlessly repeating myself"

Will you be kind enough to let us know what you are really trying to say abi na blindness dey worry us still

pilgrim.1:

we have learnt to contain it all (just like we all disagree on most other Christian doctrines). I would like to make friends and discuss amicably, whatever the outcome - but why are we so quick to be dismissive on other people's inputs just because we don't agree with their submissions?

May God help us all to be quite accommodating to one another in the love of Him whom we trust to serve in dignity, love and respect.

Many blessings and hugs.

Your earlier post quoted just above does not reflect what you said right here.
So may I ask where do you really belong- with the accommodating etc group or the plenty vitriol group of just a few replies earlier?

@anonimi,

anonimi:

Nne, I bin think say u be Christian oh! Did you actually use the words highlighted above or do you wish to edit them now?

Nope, I don't wish to edit them - and if you want to judge my Christian faith on that basis, please go ahead and please yourself. When I offered you guys a simple approach to discuss matters in a genial manner, that appeal seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Several times I pointed this out and (if memory serves me right) someone else pointed that matter out to not push your luck . . . I also warned that when you discuss issues with me, please treat softly, because a time would come that I would take no nonsense from anyone. This is not the first time that people have said funny things about me, so no caterwauls actually moves me.

I want to discuss amicably - but if discussants are not going to be careful to discuss, but rather keep making some funny sanctimonious glibs, I may have to be really tough so that we stop these belly-dancing drama and move on to some more substance in our inputs.

anonimi:

Which one do we take- the "I haven't been going back and forth" or the "how many times I have (skip)  keep going back and forth endlessly repeating myself"

Will you be kind enough to let us know what you are really trying to say abi na blindness dey worry us still

Dear anonimi, please understand a very simple matter here: I have not been going back and forth on this subject because I already have made inputs on the matter you raised yet again! If you had simply asked for referrals I could have obliged and wondered that you did not see it. For those who wish to stay with the traditional definition of tithes as ONLY 10%, I had no worries thereto, because I have said that tithes are not always a matter of 10%!! How many times do I have to say that?

If it was a matter of definition, I have also given a definition as well as the meaning of that term. After I did so, even KunleOshob missed it and afterwards I pointed it out to show him where I already made the difference! Even after that, a few others repeated the same questions and I had to go back and repeat what I already stated. Yet again, that same issue was brought up, and I yet again had to go back and repeat myself!

WHAT is it that is so hard to read a simple statement that has already been repeated several times?

If you didn't see it and had yet again raised it, I would yet again have repeated myself and given the link without worries - I could be that patient. But when you don't want to discuss and just act out of hand to be so dismissive, you are calling for a no-nonsense response from me. Even coming back to judge my Christian faith on that is just a wasted effort.

Yet again may I state it simply: if you want to discuss, please do so. If not, please try not to stir what you can't handle. At this point, these endless repetitions and glib reactions should be dropped so we can move on to other matters. If I made promises I have often come back to fulfill them; but if those who are asking me questions are too much in a hurry to be genial enough to engage a discussion, I have not bent their necks to my queries, nor sought to judge their Christianity on the attitudes they themselves have exhibited thereto.

I am open to dialogue. If that is too difficult to offer, no worries.

Cheers.

anonimi:

Your earlier post quoted just above does not reflect what you said right here.
So may I ask where do you really belong- with the accommodating etc group or the plenty vitriol group of just a few replies earlier?

Why is it that it is only that quote that got your attention? Perhaps because it was addressed to you personally? Apologies. . it was intended as a wake up call. If you want the several links where I have received good rapport from those who disagreed, I would post them on request.

@pilgrim.1
I love your posts my dear sister. Keep it up. But why do keep going online and offline?

I agree with you on this post:

So what now?

► Do I believe that the wrong notions should be exposed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that some of these wrong notions are still being taught? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that Christians should be mandated to tithe? Absoluetly NOT.
Why not? Because the ministry of tithing and giving is not a matter of compulsion,
mandate or forceful demand - and I believe we are all agreed on that.

► Do I believe that tithers as Christians are mightily blessed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that non-tithers who give other ways are blessed? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that non-tithers are cursed? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that tithers are cursed? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that the NT teaches that Christians could tithe? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that all tithers are going down the road to Hell? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that every teacher of tithe is correct? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that every opposer to tithes is wrong? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that we can strike a balance between these extremes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that this balance is a weak cop-out of my position? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that some of these pastors have used tithes to
place a heavy and grievious burden on Christians? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that we should just let these heavy burdens continue? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

► Do I believe that pilgrim.1 is the most accurate on these matters? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

► Do I believe that there is hope for us all to see the real meaning
of the ministry of tithes in the NT - whether it is not taught there
or it is actually taught there? Absolutely.

Dear obinna5000,

How body?

obinna5000:

@pilgrim.1
I love your posts my dear sister. Keep it up. But why do keep going online and offline?

Lol, Fridays are sometimes my busiest days in the week; and it happens to be the day when many people just inundate my email with questions, YIM pop up all filling my screen. . . and it can be hard concentrating with all these things. Hopefully, by weekend, the tide is less and I find time to breathe. Cheers.

Dear anonimi,

I know - pilgrim.1 is very stubborn; and that is not quite a virtue. I had been stubborn in heeding your call to edit as requested; and even several calls by YIM and emails trying to persuade me did not quite move me. BUT . . .

BUT. . I decided to come back and still leave that post as is, not to offend you (afterall is is quoted in your reply), but so anyone would see my sincerity in not pretending anything. Some wonder if I would erase it and then come back and deny that I never said any such. . no, I would not deny nor erase them. Rather than make pretences, I would rather acknowledge that I was wrong to have over-reacted there.

So, in response to several godly people who have counselled me offline, here is my unreserved apology to you: I apologise anonimi.

I hope we can help the health of discussion.

Warmest regards.

Based on the way most people view or interpret the bible, through this topic and other topics on this forum, something keeps bogging my mind, and i'd appreciate it if some of you could help me.

1. How do we, or how should we read and study the bible?,

2. do/should we read and study it from historical perspectives i.e. based on the accounts of the people of that era, such as israelites/gentiles and their practices then, most of which are no longer applicable to us today?

3. Or should we read and study it based on how we can apply every verse of such scripture to our lives in today's world? 2 Tim 3:15,16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly, : or, perfected}" (KJV)


4. The coming of Jesus Christ was to connect us "gentiles" to the Abrahamic order of blessings, or did it make Abraham's and other blessings obtainable unnecessary? (Gal 3:13-14).

5. Is there a way we can compare the levites and priests of those days to today's preachers or should we entirely discard that notion since we're not israelites?

6. What is Zion in today's world, as against Zion in the scriptures? Compare this two:
Ps 87:2 "The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. (KJV)" and
Heb 12:22 " But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (KJV)"

7. Why are most people these days taking the bible as a history book and failing to see the potent power it has to produce results in our lives today? Where is faith today?

8. Does giving generally lead to an increase in blessings? YES. Was it right for God to have told Abraham to sacrifice his son? What if Abraham hadn't obeyed him? Did God proclaim blessings on him as a result?  

9. Why did Elijah (or is it Elisha?) ask a widow with her last meal, ask her to prepare food for him, even though she had explained her condition to him? Did the meal get finished or did it increase?

10. Why did Jesus have to come to the earth to even die for our sins, when God, the all-knowing God, could have used other methods rahter than sacrificing his son?

11. Why does Prov 3:9-10 say "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.(KJV) What are firstfruits, or are they not a kind of tithes?

12. Why do we accept some scriptures, and not accept others? I'm sure most of us love the book of Proverbs, or don't we?

Sorry for all these questions, but i've been wondering.

@ above question, anonimi, KunleOshob, i suppose you two could also help answer these questions.

to cap it all, where is FAITH today?

@ sleekymag

Some tricky yet important questions there: however, in my opinion, they do not belong on this thread; let them be dealt with in a particular thread of their own.


@ obinna

A very wise post.


General

The continued preaching of the Old Testament law of tithing in whatever disguise simply has to be opposed because of the bondage that its teaching in modern times places Christians under. It is simply enslaving and placing in bondage those who have been set free. Of course, no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so - especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition.

@sleekymag
i won't bother to respond to you as i see your post as an attempt to confuse issues, besides i think Enigma as adequately addressed your post.

@Enigma,

Howdy? May I comment on yours, please?

Enigma:

@ sleekymag

Some tricky yet important questions there: however, in my opinion, they do not belong on this thread; let them be dealt with in a particular thread of their own.

I was thinking along such lines, because they would take quite some depth to answer them all. Very good questions from sleekymag, timely and apt. We could also bring some of the fruit here by referrals if we treat them elsewhere, what do you think?

Enigma:

General

The continued preaching of the Old Testament law of tithing in whatever disguise simply has to be opposed because of the bondage that its teaching in modern times places Christians under. It is simply enslaving and placing in bondage those who have been set free. Of course, no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so - especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition.

I agree with you 1 million percent! Regards.

@ Enigma

@ sleekymag

Some tricky yet important questions there: however, in my opinion, they do not belong on this thread; let them be dealt with in a particular thread of their own.

If they are important, then i think they deserve answers, those with no answers don't have to comment. But those with answers should share their views, cos their views are tied to all we've been discussing. Anonimi's and KunleOshob's answers would be appreciated.

@ KunleOshob

@sleekymag
i won't bother to respond to you as i see your post as an attempt to confuse issues, besides i think Enigma as adequately addressed your post.

My post isn't intended to confuse anyone but to make us think (except of course it confuses you and your consistent seeming reference to the bible as an historical storybook). I would appreciate it if you could answer, though.

@ Pilgrim.1,
How body? Hope u're enjoying work and all. I however think my questions could be answered, the briefer the better though, for continuous relevance to the topic @ hand.

I don't know if this would help here, but just a note on what I posted earlier:

Received from a chat:

  sheena: pilly u'r being 2 extreme .U nid 2 apologise to that guy
  Pat U: why shd I?
  sheena: don't do dis 2 urself babe, u've never had a difficulty apologising
  Pat U: okey-dokes, I'll go back and calm down later
  sheena: DO IT NOW!
  Pat U: wetin naw?
  sheena: I'm serious, just do it! dere r oda qns I nid u 2 address
  Pat U: ok, wait - I'll go back and apologise and then come address ur worries

Later:

  sheena: look at it again
  Pat U: ??
  sheena: dis one: Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!
   Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.
  sheena: don't u tink dat ur misleading peeps?
  Pat U: how?
  sheena: sounds contra 2 me tho. . .

---

pilgrim.1:

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

Okay, just to remove any confusions.

I believe that many pastors have abused tithes; but actually, my persuasions are that it is not tithes that are the real issue (mentioned this point several times, though). That someone abuses something (XYZ), does not mean that XYZ is the basis of his abuses. From what I have taken the time to study in experience, I'm persauded that the real ingredient feeding these abuses in many quarters is nothing other than greed. . . that is the basis for so many of the abuses (others may include sincerity based on ignorance of its true meaning, etc).

The apostle Peter, for example, said that some of these men will make merchandise of people - not through tithes, but through covetousness (2 Peter 2:3). I believe that is the root of most of these abuses; and in experience, some of these sad occurences are cleverly presented in other ways and their proponents do not even mention tithes!

If there's any need to point most of these things out with lucid examples, we shall do so in due course. For now, I just wanted to clarify my point above since some have thought it sounded like a contradiction of my persuasion thereto.

Cheers.

@sleekymag,

sleekymag:

@ EnigmaIf they are important, then i think they deserve answers, those with no answers don't have to comment. But those with answers should share their views, because their views are tied to all we've been discussing. Anonimi's and KunleOshob's answers would be appreciated.

I think there's an agreement in all here between Enigma, yourself, and my comments following his. We all agree that the questions are important, and as such, we think it is important to share some answers thereto. Perhaps what Enigma (and myself) was thinking about, was that the answers might take some deeper treatment (could even be briefer), and so may need to be discussed broadly in another thread - he invites all to participate as well.

sleekymag:

@ Pilgrim.1,
How body? Hope u're enjoying work and all. I however think my questions could be answered, the briefer the better though, for continuous relevance to the topic @ hand.

My bros, I just dey. It's been a great day, the busier the more refreshing!
As to the questions, they're so refreshing and I hope to share a few thoughts over the weekend.
Bless.

pilgrim.1:

@Enigma,

Quote from: Enigma on Today at 04:12:50 PM

General

The continued preaching of the Old Testament law of tithing in whatever disguise simply has to be opposed because of the bondage that its teaching in modern times places Christians under. It is simply enslaving and placing in bondage those who have been set free. Of course, no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so - especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition

.


I agree with you 1 million percent! Regards.

I am really, really wondering if you meant what you just wrote.
Because if you do then you need to read all the posts of those of us opposed to the preaching of tithe (a tenth =10%) requirement and see how it accords with what you just agreed with "1 million %"

@Pilgrim.1,

As to the questions, they're so refreshing and I hope to share a few thoughts over the weekend.

Well, i've opened the thread and it's called "Is the Bible Just An Old Storybook Or a Manual for Living?" However, i wish it was treated here cos i had wanted us to limit it to this issue of tithes. Nevertheless, your extensive treatment of the topic (on that thread) would be much appreciated.

Anonimi and KunleOshob, still waiting for ur inputs

Dear anonimi,

anonimi:

I agree with you 1 million percent! Regards.

I am really, really wondering if you meant what you just wrote.
Because if you do then you need to read all the posts of those of us opposed to the preaching of tithe (a tenth =10%) requirement and see how it accords with what you just agreed with "1 million %"

I still agree with Enigma 1 million percent; and let me show you why.

Some people (even my very close friend offline) have wondered about that stance as to whether I was not contradicting myself. I offered that is not the case, and I've treated one just above.

However, what are the things that I agree with in Enigma's? They are those which I had highlighted in quoting him, particularly the fact that he mentioned -

      _______________________________________________
      . . . no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so -
      especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or
      wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition.
      _______________________________________________

Without even highlighting anything now, I believe it is easy to see that my agreement is in accord with my previous posts:

(a)     ►  Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

        ►  Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

        ►  Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

(b)    I aslo explained that tithes are not the basis for the abuses; rather it is greed
       (or covetousness - 2 Peter 2:3) that lies at the root of the abuses.

(c)    People also have abused the Christian ministry, haven't they?
       But is it the Christian ministry that is false? If not, why attack Christian ministry?

(d)   Others have abused the Lord's Supper (even selling it in neat small pacakges);
       but is it the Supper itself that is false? If not, why should we attack the Supper?

(e)    Some yet have abused spiritual gifts (e.g., healing, tongues, miracles, etc);
        but is the problem the spiritual gifts themselves? If not, why should we
        disdain these gifts and use them to attack anybody?

In just the same way, people have abused tithes - but tithes are not the problem; rather, something other than tithes is responsible for these abuses - GREED (besides others). This is why I have appealed that we should not lose focus and begin to use a Biblical subject to attack anybody - whether we agree or disagree with them, let us leave all judgements in God's hands and rather help ourselves understand what is before us. It is for this reason that I shy away from the idea that TITHES are false doctrines; infact, Enigma has captured it in very few words aptly: it is the "false or wrong teaching of it" that I agree with 1 million percent. The problem is that so many times some of us use tithes to attack people and that is why the slips often occur in the statement that "tithes is a false doctrine' - no they are not! It is rather teaching the wrong things about it that is unhealthy.

I hope that helps clear the issue?

Bless.

@sleekymag,

sleekymag:

@Pilgrim.1,
Well, i've opened the thread and it's called "Is the Bible Just An Old Storybook Or a Manual for Living?" However, i wish it was treated here because i had wanted us to limit it to this issue of tithes. Nevertheless, your extensive treatment of the topic (on that thread) would be much appreciated.

Okay, thanks for that genial move - I'll visit, brush up my study notes, make a few prelim inputs as prolegomena, and then build it up from there step by step while seeking to address every single question you raised. Please visit as well between times and call my attention to something you may question - please critic it without sparing anything: because I don't want to mispead anyone thereto. We can then harvest some of those matters and use them to help our discussions on this profound subject.

Blessings again to you. Jesus is Lord.

pilgrim.1:

@sleekymag,

Okay, thanks for that genial move - I'll visit, brush up my study notes, make a few prelim inputs as prolegomena, and then build it up from there step by step while seeking to address every single question you raised. Please visit as well between times and call my attention to something you may question - please critic it without sparing anything: because I don't want to mispead anyone thereto. We can then harvest some of those matters and use them to help our discussions on this profound subject.

Blessings again to you. Jesus is Lord.

Roger that. Shallom!

pilgrim.1:

Dear anonimi,

I still agree with Enigma 1 million percent; and let me show you why.

(skip)
particularly the fact that he mentioned -

_______________________________________________
. . . no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so -
especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or
wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition.
_______________________________________________

Without even highlighting anything now, I believe it is easy to see that my agreement is in accord with my previous posts:

(a) ► Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

(b) I aslo explained that tithes are not the basis for the abuses; rather it is greed
(or covetousness - 2 Peter 2:3) that lies at the root of the abuses.

(skip)

It is for this reason that I shy away from the idea that TITHES are false doctrines; infact, Enigma has captured it in very few words aptly: it is the "false or wrong teaching of it" that I agree with 1 million percent. The problem is that so many times some of us use tithes to attack people and that is why the slips often occur in the statement that "tithes is a false doctrine' - no they are not! It is rather teaching the wrong things about it that is unhealthy.

I hope that helps clear the issue?

Bless.

It clears the issue and confirms what I said earlier: your position as it stands is no different from what those who oppose the false teachers of tithe have been saying over the past 59 pages.
You may wish to go and check again.

pilgrim.1:


(skip)

Without even highlighting anything now, I believe it is easy to see that my agreement is in accord with my previous posts:

(a) ► Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

(b) I aslo explained that tithes are not the basis for the abuses; rather it is greed
(or covetousness - 2 Peter 2:3) that lies at the root of the abuses.

(skip)

Maybe you need to reconcile greed being satisfied by the manipulation of the Bible in regards to tithe. Think about any act having a motive behind it.
Hopefully that may help clear some lingering ambiguity.

@anonimi,

anonimi:

It clears the issue and confirms what I said earlier: your position as it stands is no different from what those who oppose the false teachers of tithe have been saying over the past 59 pages.
You may wish to go and check again.

I think even if we go back the past 59 pages, there is a huge difference between my position and those who have used tithes as the basis for attacking others. How do I make this simple enough? Let me try:

There is nothing wrong with teaching tithes in church - absolutely nothing wrong with that. The question rather is: how do we teach these things? Should we teach them based on the Law? If that is the case, then it is wrong, because that would mean that people who don't tithe are cursed.

But there again, teaching tithes is not the reason why we should attack anybody. if you anonimi think that I have been saying the same thing as you, why did I oppose your reposting Yomisays article on the forum for attacking Pastor Adeboye? Why use tithes to attack that man in the name of "telling the truth" - just because we disfavour tithes? That is not my approach, dear anonimi. . that should never be our approach. Do we think he is one of those teaching the subject wrongly? Then we can share what in his teaching it is wrong - and rather not attack him under any excuse.

You see why I don't like to go down that road. I prefer discussing a matter rather than go out of my way to use tithes to attack anybody. It is unhealthy, for tithes are not the problem - it is greed in some people that feeds the wrong emphasis, and by sharing indepth understanding on the subject, we can help disavow this greed. It will help in the following ways:

● people who have been confused will come to know why they tithe
and some why others don't feel inclined to tithe;

● it will help them understand their freedom and release from the fear
that they were ever under any curses from malachi 3

● it will help those who want to tithe do so joyfully and with great
enthusiasm, instead of just wanting to do so because of any
friend, family, of feeling out of being in the in-crowd

● the more informed people are about what actually is tithes
the more some pastors will be better able to know how to
handle the subject and not push their Malachi 3 agenda

● it will make many of us more accountable in our private lives
as well make some of those ministers see that they cannot
keep playing the games of their abuses on wrongly handling
the subject, even though it is a Biblical subject

● it will help the rest of us walk carefully so we don't unnecessarily
attack anyone out of disaffection to the subject (tithes) than
from a love that helps us react responsibly

● it will give believers confidence against the mockery of casual
observers who often write everything about Church as
"abeg na money business - close the church!"

● it will glorify God in the way we handle money and show the
real nature of our hearts, by not legislating for Him to condemn
what He never condemned

● it will challenge us more to constantly go back and ask God to
show us what we thought we knew and yet have no answers
to; so that our pride will be dealt with to help others in more
beneficial ways.

Why is the greed much more the problem than anything else? Because even when some people do not make mention of tithes, you have no clue that they use other means to draw money from believers much more than any tithes we may give! You would be surprised how much money people give to such high-fliers when condemning tithes at the same instance! So, tithe is 1 out of 10; and some of these fellows will persuade some people to give more than 5 out of 10, and these same dear saints who condemn the 1 out of 10 are too often gullible to dole out 5 out of 10.

It is difficult for anyone to see what is actually going one if they remain with this idea that tithes has always been the problem! The moment we take time to truly investigate wjhat is happeing in many places, we will come back humbled to see how wrong our emphasis to discredit this issue has been.

God bless you.