Sagamite:

SMH!

The same socialism in Cuba that even Fidel Castro said has failed is what you are using as example as something that "can work"?

98% literacy rate? Where has that got them? What have they innovated? So just getting people to be able to read and write is the be all and end all?

Literacy rate means jack nothing except there is a mass of populace that are getting the best quality education money can buy.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

cap28:



Im sorry bro but you dont know what you're talking about the US DOES WANT THE WORLD TO ADOPT the capitalist economic model because that is the economic model that has enabled the US to become the richest nation on the planet, it has also helped the US in its expansionist adventures abroad.  

The idea that capitalism can only operate successfully where according to you there is the right balance of welfare systems and progressive tax is laughable because in a capitalist economy the aim is to maximise profit not to assist the poor or weak.  Capitalism is all about downsizing in order to generate profit not the other way around!!!

Your example of Brazil is a joke!! Brazil is one of the most inequitable countries in the world BECAUSE it pracitices an undiluted capitalist system (just like nigeria) capitalism THRIVES in such economies, that is why major corporations and multinationals flock there to do business - becuase of its dirt cheap labour. As a matter of fact the Brazilian elite who are white upper middle class STILL control the Brazilian economy irrespective of the protestations of Lula and other pseudo socialists.  there is no welfare system, no safety net for the poor hence the high crime rate.  Prostitution is also a national export, many of the young women resort to prostitution as the only way out of a life of abject poverty and misery.  

YOur statement about america wanting countries to adopt democracy rather than capitalism is quite frankly the funniest thing i have ever heard in my life.

America is an imperialist power, it wages war on countries who refuse to bow to its economic model aka the washington consensus, IT DOESNT CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY, its own system of govt is not democratic, ALL AMERICA CARES ABOUT IS GLOBAL DOMINATION OF WORLD MARKETS IN ORDER TO MAKE PROFIT.

America's last defence budget for 2010/11 was $1 trillion USD.  Why do you think they spend so much money on "defence" ?

America uses its enormous military advantage to intervene in countries all over the world that are not following its capitalist economic model and it forces stubborn nations into compliance - read up on what the US did to former Panamanian president Torrijos, Nasser of Egypt, Salazar of Portugal, Manley of Jamaica and Allende of Chile.

All of the above leaders were trying to implement economic policies which promoted wealth redistribution, land reform which would benefit ordinary working people as opposed to members of the elite.

Any govt which strives for wealth redistribution or attempts to use economic surpluses to benefit the masses soon finds themselves on the receiving end of america's aggression.

A free market system or capitalist economy guarantees limitless exploitation of weaker nations.

Look at nigeria, we are practicing an undiluted capitalist system in which workers have no rights, the poor are treated like sh.it, there are no environmental regulations to ensure accountablity, this is why shell and other multinationals flock to nigeria and this is why nigeria has never been on the receviing end of american aggression.  we are doing everythign they tell us to do.

People keep talking about China as if life there is heaven, have you taken the time to speak to any chinese people and find out how they live, many of them work back to back shifts in order to keep their heads above water, yes the corporations are amassing a fortune, but what is life like for the ordinary man on the street, as for India, i don t know if you know this but 45% of their children suffer from malnutrition.

youngmonie:

Everything falls under the rule of law and Government intervention  through policy implementation. But u see Nigeria is a country were we take a lot of things for granted. Take the Niger Delta issue for instance I am pretty sure there are loads of laws and policy concerning oil exploration drilling and oil spillages but they are never implemented, all this oil companies get away with all sort of attrocites why because they know nothing will happen so one is going to call them to book and the government know they are not accountable to anyone dat is why a senator would recieve all his salary and benefits but the man working for Nitel may not even get paid in 6months

ola olabiy:

I think Cuba has been socialist since 1961. I am not very sure, though.

But, don't be fooled by the term 'Comunist Party'.

cap28:

Sagamite socialism "failed" in Cuba because it has been economically blockaded by the US and a host of other countries since 1959!!!

cap28:

which country would develop in such dire circumstances, the fact of the matter is that despite this injustice, it has STILL succeeded in educating the vast majority of its people and providing them with free health care a feat that the US is yet to achieve.  Nigeria despite its vast oil reserves has nothing to show for itself other than the fact that it succeeded in blowing over $300 billion USD in less than 3 decades!!!!

manny4life:

Oh well like I studied in Economics; Cuba is a Communist nation. Even the U.S. state dept classifies Cuba as a Communist nation

ola olabiy:

Have you been there? Nigerians sha. They have some cars (bettles) you won't even find in a Volkswagen museum.

As Nigerians, you would complain again that your automobiles and developmental infrastructure are so last century.

manny4life:

Oh well like I studied in Economics; Cuba is a Communist nation. Even the U.S. state dept classifies Cuba as a Communist nation

Sagamite:

One country putting an embargo on you is not an excuse for failure.

US has not achieved the feat because US DOES NOT INTEND OR WANT TO achieve the feat.

That point is lame, you need to get your facts right. The US does not believe in free health care is the reason US does not have one, not because Cuba has a superior ideology.

Kilode?!:

that's funny

But, don't you think that is a better alternative to what I'll call Wombia Consumerism? the type of "chop till you quench" economy that capitalist corporations love to encourage. It is sadder that we love it in Nigeria too(another topic entirely)

At least they(Cubans) were forced to live within their means and conserve their resources. That is something I will recommend for My country and $12billion deficit America!!


Seriously though, I do not support the kind of heavy handed Communism practiced by Castro and his brigades over the years.

The oppression and victimization of the opposition as practiced by Castro and his regime I believe did rob Cuba of essential alternative ideas even in the face of Imperialist enemies IMO.

But, I'm not wearing Castro's shoes and internet radicalism is not the same as guerrilla warfare. So I will let Castro be for now.

Back to Nigeria; I think we need to destroy class as much as we can and raise reason above silly emotions and cultural practices in our quest to develop an economic system that will fit our environment.

Walahi, I love aspects of our culture and our beliefs but, some things will have to give way if we want to get it right


"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot

cap28:

The US trade embargo has a knock on effect because it  also penalises foreign companies  that do business in Cuba by preventing them from doing business in the US.

In addition sanctions can also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba

ola olabiy:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba




The Constitution of 1976, which defined Cuba as a socialist republic, was replaced by the Constitution of 1992, which is guided by the ideas of José Martí, Marx, Engels and Lenin.[4] The constitution describes the Communist Party of Cuba as the "leading force of society and of the state".[

Sagamite:

US has not achieved the feat because US DOES NOT INTEND OR WANT TO achieve the feat.

That point is lame, you need to get your facts right. The US does not believe in free health care is the reason US does not have one, not because Cuba has a superior ideology.

cap28:

i think your point is unbeleivably lame - if the US were so disinterested in affordable health care for its citizens why has Obama introduced the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act?

I guess this original poster to this post did not intend it to be narrowed down to Nigeria, but since most of us are Nigerians lets do so.

1. People give examples with Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark. USA, China, UAE, Britain, Canada and Japan. These countries are practicing variant forms of mixed economies. That is to say, they are neither capitalists nor socialists. They just do what suit their citizens and their country as a whole.

2. The problem with Nigerian theorists, such as the ones on this forum is that they look so much on other succesful countries as models, without considering whether their system will be suitable to Nigeria, with all its dynamics. If travelling by boat is the fastest way in country AA, lets implement it in country BB without considering if coutry BB has rivers or if it is a mere desert

3.  Fela, the legendary musician was once asked what economic system best suited Africa. He said capitalism, socialism, communism dont suit Africa, what suits Africa is Africanism, which is Africans doing what works for them. In the case of Nigeria, Nigeria doing what works for her.

4. One needs to look at most of the laws in Nigeria, for instance taxation law, insurance policies and so many other things all copied verbatim from the British ones, thereby creating conflicts with our internal natural system

5. USA is successful and it doesnt practice the same system with Sweden. Sweden is successful and it doesnt practice the same system with Britain. Britain is successful and it doesnt practice the same system with China. China is successful and it doesnt practice the same system with Saudi Arabia.

7. Why can't Nigerian theorists stop using words like socialism, capitalism, state capitalism, communism, etc. and start talking of Nigerianism?

ola olabiy:

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2008/02/19/cuba-socialist

kalokalo:

I smell a lot of hypocrisy here, The same people who condemn capitalism and extol socialism/communism's vitues would never want to live in a communist state. How many people do we hear of fleeing the "exploitation" of capitalist countries and escaping to socialist paradise? Yet we constantly hear of people braving shark-infested waters to escape from socialist utopia (cuba, North Korea, Laos etc) and to be "exploited" in capitalist countries (UK, US).

Any one that truly wants to understand capitalism should read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. He sums up the book in the following comment, "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher or the baker that we expect our dinner but from his pursuit of his own self interest" Society's interest is best served when everyone pursues his/her own self interest. This is what makes capitalism succeed and others fail. They fail because they do not consider that man is naturally selfish.

Any ideology that forces all men to live equally is bondage. Any system that does not reward private initiative and enterprise is oppressive. Has anyone bothered to understand why things work best in Nigeria or elsewhere when they are privately run and every thing that is run by the state is poorly run? I challenge anyone to contradict me.

If you dislike capitalism and private enterprise, put your money where your mouth is, refuse to patronize goods and services made available through private initiative and enterprise and look to the state to supply all your needs. Do it for a year and come back to tell us what you learnt!

kalokalo:

Talking of Midas touch, everything the Nigerian state has touched is an enigma of inefficiency, corruption and top to bottom utter waste of national resources. Economically speaking, the infrastructure of electricity, energy and water resources ceded to the state from the beginning of time is in utter shambles. Even industries built and ran by the state for the benefit of its members i.e. the Oligarchy is comatose; yet, Nigerians still prefer to have the state run everything, no wonder anyone capitalists are hated in Nigeria!

Capitalism assures optimal allocation of capital. Something a private individual will do for 'X' dollars, the state will do for '10X' dollars and it will still not be any good. that is why the state can spend 6 Billion dollars on a steel plant and it has never produced a single gram of steel and yet its thousands of workers are paid every month. Where is the money coming from? Its from the sweat (taxes) of productive capitalist enterprises like Shell, MTN and Iya Sikira. That is the redistridution of wealth that myopic minds prefer? The subsidization of indolence.

ola olabiy:

The bottomline is no model will ever work in Nigeria. Models are no robots. A good model has to be applied and implemented by men.

We have consciously refused to do it RIGHT.

A painstaking analysis of the country will reveal this to any descerning mind. That entity is ungovernable.

It is a mere geo-political expression. It WAS NOT MEANT to work, anyway. Fact.

I know I will take a lotof flak for this statement. But, by 2020, the status quo must have become better entrenched.

So, stories continue.

kalokalo:

I smell a lot of hypocrisy here, The same people who condemn capitalism and extol socialism/communism's vitues would never want to live in a communist state. How many people do we hear of fleeing the "exploitation" of capitalist countries and escaping to socialist paradise? Yet we constantly hear of people braving shark-infested waters to escape from socialist utopia (cuba, North Korea, Laos etc) and to be "exploited" in capitalist countries (UK, US).

Any one that truly wants to understand capitalism should read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. He sums up the book in the following comment, "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher or the baker that we expect our dinner but from his pursuit of his own self interest" Society's interest is best served when everyone pursues his/her own self interest. This is what makes capitalism succeed and others fail. They fail because they do not consider that man is naturally selfish.

Any ideology that forces all men to live equally is bondage. Any system that does not reward private initiative and enterprise is oppressive. Has anyone bothered to understand why things work best in Nigeria or elsewhere when they are privately run and every thing that is run by the state is poorly run? I challenge anyone to contradict me.

If you dislike capitalism and private enterprise, put your money where your mouth is, refuse to patronize goods and services made available through private initiative and enterprise and look to the state to supply all your needs. Do it for a year and come back to tell us what you learnt!

cap28:

i think your point is unbeleivably lame - if the US were so disinterested in affordable health care for its citizens why has Obama introduced the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act?

Sagamite:

Do you listen to the news?

Apart from difference between free and affordable that was pointed out to you, you do not know there are Americans that vehemently oppose the healthcare bill and have blocked it for years?

You did not know Clinton tried to introduce it in the 90s?

You do not know that the Republicans that just won the mid-term even plan to find a way to reverse it?

You honestly think America cannot afford and implement a free healthcare programme if it WANTS?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-542502.160.html#msg7074763

cap28:

okay  can you clarify what it is exactly you are saying ?  are you saying that  a relatively poor country like Cuba which is able to provide free health care to its citizens has failed whereas a country as rich and powerful as america which has the wherewithal to do so but chooses not to is admirable?

cap28:

Cuba is a tiny island which has been economically blockaded by america and many other western nations for over 50 years and is STILL able to provide free health care whereas the US which is one of the richest countries on the planet chooses not to do this and is to be commended are you sure you understand the issue here.

cap28:

I dont think you understand how capitalism works, capitalist economies base everything they do on profit, anything which does not generate profit is not worth venturing into hence the huge opposition from powerful insurance healthcare lobby groups.  Try and understand issues before you open your mouth!!!

Does each country in the world have a name for the ideology and philosophy that it practices? It is not too difficult to understand; you are either right wing, centre right centrist, centre left or left wing. These are all mapped to the various names such as capitalism, socialism, democratic socialism, communism, etc

Sagamite:

That is not my point.

I think you erred by referring to Cuba and trying to praise their healthcare as an achievement that the capitalism of US cannot provide. Not that I think it is good US do not give free healthcare.

I challenged you because:

1) There are several Westerm capitalist countries that give FREE healthcare, so it was lame to praise Cuba and proffer an argument like if US can not achieve the same.

2) I think I have told you this before, Cuba's healthcare is only achievable because of quasi-forced labour. The government pays the medical staff peanuts and give them no option of leaving the system. That is virtually the only way they can achieve the feat otherwise they would not have resources to execute the free healthcare programme.

3) Communism is utter SHYT! Never praise it no matter what good side you see to it.

[/quote]

Really so literacy is no longer an important measurement of economic development- perhaps you could provide an alternative yardstick?


[quote]You still have not shown me your source here:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-542502.160.html#msg7074763

And now you add another. Which "many other western nations" have placed economic embargo on Cuba?

Please educate me due to my "lack of understanding".

Really?

Let me let you answer the ones above before we delve into this.

Let us see your understanding.

cap28:

Of course its a major acheivement considering the draconian trade embargoes that the country is currently being subjected to.

cap28:

Like? can we have examples please, and while your at it explain how this health care is free

cap28:

the issue here is not whether america can provide free or affordable healthcare but the fact that it CHOOSES NOT TO because it beleives in the free market system controlling all aspects of the economy.

cap28:

So what?  the point is health care provision is seen as a priority for the people by the Cuban govt whereas in powerful america only those rich enough to pay extortionate insurance premiums can afford it - does that make sense to you?

cap28:

Can we have some constructive arguments from you to demonstrate why you think communism is "utter shyt"?

cap28:

Really so literacy is no longer an important measurement of economic development- perhaps you could provide an alternative yardstick?

cap28:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act