₦airaland Forum

Ibime:
This your high five look like waka. Not accepted!

My Nigga.

N.a. pure 5 o.

Ibime:
Whether it is in suporting airmark as he erroneously claims that no of tackles is a key stat to judge a players effectiveness, or plethora of comments made in the past, or posting tackle stats after many matches to prove a point. . . . or your recent attempts to prove that VDV, Luiz, Azpi, Aldeweireld etc are high volume tacklers to go with their status as top defenders, it has always been clear to me what your stance is, as well as from the likes of the below:





My stance has always been clear on the other side of the debate based on my experience with Makelele, Ballack, Terry and co that you don't need to post high numbers of tackles to be effective.

If we misunderstood each other before, and now both agree that no of tackles is not an indication of effectiveness, then there is no need to fight. Lets just shake hands and help me pass the message the Airmark, bigkesh and co rather than supporting their stance. I will not hear that the Greatest Chelsea legends who barely tackled are ineffective because someone wants to promote Kante or down Matic.

Lol this man sef.

The person I was actually 'tackling' in my original post was Raumdeuter for posting that Maldini quote that a tackle is the result of a mistake. You could see that Chelseafan1 and Airmark were on his case after that comment with regards to Boateng, and I was simply stating my opinion that a tackle is not merely a corrective measure as thar post suggested, but a key skill that any defensive player worth his salt must have in his Arsenal.

With regards to Matic, my focus on his tackle figures have always been relative to Kante. Nobody can deny that when Matic first came, he was doing the job that Kante does now.

My argument has always been, since Matic is no longer required to do that Kante style job, what is he bringing to the table offensively? And I was arguing that on my ones before it became a popular view on here because i remember how Fabregas was creating chances while Matic bulldozed only 2 years ago, in the period you said Matic was 'carrying Fab'



Anyway, enough of this yarns. Leicester are playing Northampton at Franklin Gardens. Big game time.

Take 5.

Earth2Metahuman:
Chelsea are ready to go head to head with
Manchester United over the signing of
Atletico Madrid's Antoine Griezmann, The
Sun reports.

Hmmmn

I don't know if I want this guy though. At least not for the kind of money he would be going for.

Why don't we test the water for Aubameyang or Reus? Or maybe one of those Monaco boys.

Ibime:
The most important thing in an exercise is that truth is brought to light and peoples behaviour changes whether they admit it or not.

Nihilist 3 months ago - "No of tackles is a very important stat".

Nihilist over the last months - "What exactly does Matic do. Look at his low no of tackles"

Nihilist today: "Nobody said tackle's prove an indication of a player's effectiveness."

From fervent counter of tackles to "no of tackles is no indication of effectiveness"

Learn to read bro.

This is the official Nihilist postion on Matic with regards to tackles. This was in Feb. I can go back to last year if you want.

Nihilist:

The key thing I have emphasised is that Matic is no longer the tackling midfielder - Not that he has forgotten how to tackle.

Anybody that watches even one Chelsea game this season will immediately note that our main midfield assassin is Kante. Since Kante is doing all the dirty work, Matic should be freed up to contribute to the attacking play - Afterall this is exactly what happened in 2014/15.

Instead we are seeing a situation where Kante is winning 14 tackles in one game, while Matic did not even make a single one.

Matic who should have been our midfield play runner had 80% pass accuracy and touched the ball only 8 more times than Courtois

Wahala dey with Matic

I will not be calling for Fabregas to step into the team for Matic if I felt that more Tackles were required in midfield. I am calling for Fab precisely because we don't need more tackles in midfield, and his creativity will be welcome.

Do you want me to buy you Brighter Grammar for Christmas? Or Ali and Simbi? We speak English in the real world bro, not Dy/Dx

Ibime:
Sorry, this is why I gave you aggregate no of tackles for the whole team vs goals conceded which did not show correlation between a teams aggregate tackles and the no of goals it concedes.

So if the teams total tackles and the players individual tackles show little correlation to goals conceded, how exactly is counting the number of tackles an indication of the players effectiveness? On both counts, your argument fails.

John Bull, My son I sent you to school you don't know how to spell your name.

Or even read apparently.

Nobody said tackle's prove an indication of a player's effectiveness. All i said was that tackles are in important tool in the skill set of a defender.

This was my original post as at last night

Nihilist:
Tackling is a very important tool in the skill set of any half decent defensive player. You cannot be a defender or defensive midfielder and not know how to tackle. I mean just look at what's happening over there where the manager doesn't coach tackles. .

Simple statement, and you started solving sine and cosine.

Like I said earlier, your problem is that you want to show that you know maths. I put it to you that if you run the same calculation for individual interceptions, individual blocks, and individual clearances, you will not see any direct correlation to cleansheets, which is why no statistical authority counts clean sheets for outfield players...but you're too dumb to recognise that.

That's why I did not indulge you on your fools errand. No be today nyash dey back.

You want another L or the ones you don swallow don belleful you?

Ibime:
Sometimes you have to break coconut head with figures when yarn done too much.

Na Spearmans Rank in excel. Maths with Econs.

Exactly wetin I talk.

Mr I know Maths, but can't read simple English.

You are the height of Ls, the peak, the Zenith. L-umelu

Ibime:
Look at this fool. You just wrote that having been backed into a corner. After 4 months of arguing about the relationship between tackling and defensive stability.

Let me remind you

Nihilist:

My friend don't try and obfuscate matters. Nobody said that if you make the most tackles, you are the best centreback. Shebi 2 of the players you mentioned as the top 4 CBs in EPL are in the top 4 of that list. VVD is Number 2.

Just sit down and keep this L company. You've lost again.

That was at 9am this morning. I don't need to be an an accantant to know that you cannot find a correlation between an individual defender's tackles and the number of goals his team concedes.

Because cleansheet is a function of the whole team, not an individual defender. The only player on the pitch whose individual actions directly correlate with clean sheet is the goalkeeper, which is why they only count clean sheet as a stat for keepers and not anybody else.

So I found it hilarious that you were calculating clean sheet ratios for defenders. I can imagine you sat at your dining table, typing furiously and swearing under your breath "I am going to show nihilist today"

Lol. Olodo

Basically all you wanted to do what's show you know how to count and you managed to prove that. The problem is that you still don't know WHAT to count.

You are an accantant that knows the price of everything and the cost of nothing . Hold this L bro.

Ibime:
Which shows a correlation of 0.1 ie Very Weak correlation between no of tackles you make and no of goals conceded.

This is why I told you to calm down instead of jumping up and down like a madman with fire ant in his pant. Just look at all the calculation you made there and in the end it brought you to a conclusion that Nihilist made how many hours ago?

Nihilist:
Ibime is a fantasist. Everybody knows there are many metrics used in assessing a defender, you have tackles. You have blocks. You have interceptions. You have clearances. And that's without even mentioning things like Positioning, pressing, dispossession, loose balls etc.

So if course I won't join him on a fools errand trying to look for correlation between goals conceded and number of tackles because I know that there is more to defending than just tackling.

Clap for yaself bro

Skimpledawg:
You forget say baba Ibime na mathematician guru

You did well not to tow that path ai swear.

Well, baba has a point though. The relationship between tackles made and goals conceded by a team goes a long way to show how formidable such teams are and on the long run, why tackles are necessary by a DM or defender.

Ibime is a fantasist. Everybody knows there are many metrics used in assessing a defender, you have tackles. You have blocks. You have interceptions. You have clearances. And that's without even mentioning things like Positioning, pressing, dispossession, loose balls etc.

So if course I won't join him on a fools errand trying to look for correlation between goals conceded and number of tackles because I know that there is more to defending than just tackling.

He is just butthurt that he got caught lying about the likes of VVD and Azpi not being top tackling centrebacks. He even went back to edit his post to add more defenders after quickly checking whoscored to see who wasn't on the list.

He should continue crying. When he's done, he will use this L to wipe his nose.

Ibime:
First things first, Luiz is only no 31 of 43 on tackles per game for centrebacks. In YOUR list you did total no of tackles which placed Luiz at no 13 not taking into account no of games played. Aldewiereld is no 21, Azpi is no 2 and Van Dijk is no 5.

Top of the list for tackles per game is Otamendi.

Why are you shouting 'your list' as if I'm the one that chose the the top 20 tacklers.

You did that bro. Not me.

You

Ibime:
First things first, Luiz is only no 31 of 43 on tackles per game for centrebacks. In your list you did total no of tackles which placed Luiz at no 13 not taking into account no of games played. Aldewiereld is no 21, Azpi is no 2 and Van Dijk is no 5.

Top of the list for tackles per game is Otamendi.

Luiz is 13 for Total number of tackles attempted per game.

Shine your eyes

Edit, actually, Ibime is right. Luiz doesn't make the top 20.

I filtered it wrong.

Azpi is number 2, VVD is number 10, and Aldeirweireld is number 20.

That's still 3 of the original 4 centerbacks in mentioned in the top 20.

Ibime:
@ Nihilist and Airmark,




Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season

Van Dijk - Number 2

Azpi - Number 4

Vertoghen - Number 5

Luiz - Number 13

Shine your eye bro.

Ibime:
Hehehehehe. See as the nigga is running. He would rather get hung up on an irrelevant point of me talking about all players than even agree to run the numbers of his list of centre backs only.

"i did not know we were talking about correlation".

This is why you should not argue with simpletons. You could be saying one thing, and they would be understanding another.

My guy, I am ready to run the correlation on YOUR list of centre backs only. Quit harping back to my list of all players to obfuscate matters.

Oga accantant, go and sleep. We're talking football here, you are busy playing your Calculator like a piano.

Skimpledawg:
This case never close


Now the party is getting hot, ejoo... Coman continue

Case don close since yesterday. Ibime is just trying to use agidi not to lose face.

Nobody said Tackle is the only measure of a good defensive player. All we said is that tackle is solid part if the defensive toolkit and that is not a lie. Baba don bring out four figure table to calculate Tackle, Goals, even IQ and Salary.

The main thing he said was that top defenders don't tackle, and listed a set of defenders who supposedly do not tackle - all I did was show him that those defenders that he listed are actually the best tacklers in the league within the centreback sector.

Case closed mehn.

Ibime:
Let us agree that your method of comparing centre backs only is correct. So it should be. The rest is just miscomprehension of my original statement. I TOTALLY agree that we should limit comparison to centre backs.

And you were wrong. Finish

Ibime:
They are not on the list! My initial statement was top 20 tacklers, not limited to centrebacks.
?

Why don't you compare shots Cortouis has taken this season to the shots Costa has taken? Or maybe we should check how many saves Hazard has made this season.

First rule of comparison is you compare like for like. Each zone on the pitch has its different risks, so you stick to comparing the players that occupy the same zone. If you don't know this, then why are you even bothering to post Wikipedia definitions and excel worksheets?

This case is Sealed, no Heidi Klum.

Bye!

Ibime:
You are running away. Top 20 tacklers does not include those players. You brought top 20 centrebacks with Otamendi as number one. You keep running away from correlation coefficient (which I have not even run yet). It is only so long that one would stomach obstinacy when clear defined resolution of a matter is available.

My friend go and sleep. The case has been closed. The lie detector showed that you were not telling the truth about the top 20 tacklers amongst centrebacks. I don't need any correlation to verify the stats from whoscored. Bye!

Ibime:
So it is not a matter of he said, she said, I saw, and picking out of incomplete sections of data to suit your argument. Let us run the correlation between no of tackles and no of goals conceded for each player, and see what is what. Agree?

You were not mentioning correlation when you made your initial statement which has now been proven to be false. I will only entertain any other discussion after you admit that the statement you made about those players missing from the list was factually incorrect. Otherwise, case closed.

Ibime:
I repeat, it is not case closed.

Ibime: Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season.

Are VVD, Luiz, and Azpi on the the list? Yes or no?

If Yes, case closed.

Funlordmaniac:
So who rightly deserves to be termed high chief "L chapo" after this independently observed tackling argument?

If you say, Defenders X,Y,Z are not in top 20 in tackles department, you better make damn sure you checked first. These Ls wont hold themselves you know...

Ibime:
It's not case closed. 20 out of 43 defenders is 50% of the eligible population.

Each team has played at least 27 league games this season. Whoscored limit it to defenders who have made at least 15 appearances this season which is a total of 43 defenders.

Even if you expand the list to every centre back who has made at least 1 appearance this season, those players still make the top 20 tacklers of 93 players.

Case firmly closed.

Ibime:
My friend lets not be combative and stick to the facts. I said Top 20 tackles does not include any of those players I mentioned which i doesn't. You whittled it down to top 20 centrebacks, of which there are only 43 centrebacks. The base of comparison changed from all players to centrebacks only, and it is only fair to compare like for like. I can accept to debate on those terms being that I am not intellectually dishonest.

Good.

You then went on an exercise of listing highest tackling 20 centrebacks (50% of the total sample size) to show some of those names I mentioned. A simple visual examination showed the top 20 tackling centrebacks was a mixed bag of good defenders and bad defenders, which does not tell us anything definitive.

This is where you want to try and obscure the argument. You said, those 4 players you listed were not in the top 20 tacklers. I listed the top 20 centrebacks and 3 of your listed players were in it. Case closed.

Ibime:
Relax yourself. The serious joke was that Otamendi showed strong correlation between being a rubbish defender and having high no of tackles. Azpi and VVD are only 50% of the defenders I mentioned, same probability as the flip of a coin. You presented a mixed-bag of results with some atrocious defenders making your top list of tacklers, threw in Azpi and VVD, and hey voila, presented as evidence of correlation. Wait first, lets chop the numbers up. The list of high volume tacklers look as random as something that would be caused by style of play.

What is the clown saying?

You are the only that has been shouting correlation upandan. What's my business with correlation?

This was your verbatim statement

Ibime: Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season.

My job as the lie detector was to prove you were lying as 3 of those 4 players were in the top 15 for tackles. 2 of them in the top 5. 1 of them in the top 2.

Now after being exposed yet again for yarning bollocks, you're shouting correlation and excel spreadsheet. What next? SPSS? MATLAB?

My nigga cuddle this L and go to sleep.

Ibime:
Is it getting too much for you. Calm down.

It's simple. Your correlation coefficient will simply determine the strength of the relationship between having a high number of tackles and being a good defender.

You simply can't come and tell us Luiz is in the highest 30% of tacklers and disappear, when he is in the top 5% of defenders this season. That is weak correlation. When I enter excel, we go chop up the numbers.

Not only excel, you should make PowerPoint slides bro. The first thing you've been shouting is that Luis is top 5 percentile...this is based on what stats? Who said Luis is top 5? Which authority?

Secondly, why are you not trying to calculate for Azpi and VVD? Have you forgotten that these are also examples of players you mentioned?

This guy you have some serious jokes I swear.

Ibime:
Calm down, you are about to take a lesson in percentiles.

Make my daughter comot for youtube first make I enter computer.

Luiz is in the top 30 percentile for tackles yet in the top 5 percentile of centre backs this season. Do you know how low that coefficient of correlation is? Keep yarning, make I enter computer first.

What is this one yarning again?

The top defenders you mentioned have also been exposed as the top tackling centre backs in the land. Now you're yarning coeffiecient of blah blah.

Those who know you will not be surprised that you try to flip the argument again to save face. The only thing you should be calculating is the coefficient of correlation to this L that you're holding.

Carry on accumulating these Ls and we might have to change your name to lallana

Ibime:
I hope you realise that there are only 30 regular centre backs in the EPL. I will analyze the percentile ranking shortly

Actually, there are 43 who have made more than 15 apps this season.

VVD and Azpi are in the top 4. Thats top 10 Percentile

Luiz is in the top 13. That's top 30 Percentile

Anyhow you want to look at it, the defenders you mentioned are at the top of the pile when it comes to tackling for centre backs.

Take another L for your troubles.

Ibime:
You've just ruined your argument by showing us that Otamendi is the top tackling centre back in the league this season.

If you agree that Otamendi is the best defender in the league this season, I will agree with you that counting no of tackles is a good validation of a defenders worth.

My friend don't try and obfuscate matters. Nobody said that if you make the most tackles, you are the best centreback. Shebi 2 of the players you mentioned as the top 4 CBs in EPL are in the top 4 of that list. VVD is Number 2.

Just sit down and keep this L company. You've lost again.

lordfalcao:
Mata wipes the cross....

Drogbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



Tears shirt.. The day Bayern fans Raumdeuter will never forget..

FTFY.

Ibime:
@ Nihilist and Airmark,


Look egbons, I don't want to say the one wey go make handshake pass elbow. . . but una dey try my patience. Why is simple empirical evidence hard to recognise?

Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season.

Ngolo Kante is the only player that will PFA Team of the year in the top 20 tacklers. That is empirical evidence, case closed.

Just because NGolo Kante is envogue right now, we have people running around spouting all manner of crap.

The John Terry you have been defending as World Class against Dayo is a low volume tackler. All of my Chelsea defensive heros from Makelele to Ballack were low volume tacklers. I will not come and rubbish them today just because NGolo Kante has a different style of play, nor will I place Ramires above them because of tackle stats.

I put John Terrys tackle stats below. The first people to defend John Terry from Raumdeuter will be the same ones to come around and start telling us that number of tackles is important because of NGolo Kante. Please be consistent.

Let's desist from arguing nonsense. Make we leave am there.

Unlike you, I like to argue within context.

We were largely discussing midfielders, don't try and obscure the debate by introducing centrebacks to the discussion. Obviously a CB is the last line of defence. He is less likely to attempt a tackle than a midfielder because the consequences could be disastrous. If a DM misses his tackle, a CB can cover him behind. If a CB misses his tackle, then the attacker could be through on goal.

Now while a CB will not be as aggressive in the tackle as a DM, they still need to tackle! Let us compare to top tackling centrebacks in the EPL today.

When we do that, it becomes immediately apparent that you don't know what you're talking about.

Van Dijk is the number 2 on the list of top tackling CBs who have made more than 15 apps in the EPL as of today. Azpi is number 4. So that's 2 of of the players you mentioned sitting in the top 5. Expand it to top 20, and you will find Luiz, and Cahill. You will find a Spurs Centreback there. You will find Arsenal centrebacks there. You will find Liverpool CBs there. You will see Otamendi there.

TACKLING IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE DEFENSIVE TOOLKIT. You cannot remove it. Simples.

Ibime:
Stop miseducating the youth and filling their head with nonsense. There is no professional defender or midfielder that will turn professional and doesn't know how to tackle. Even I know how to tackle.

Every player will tackle to save their team on a dangerous counterattack etc on a need to basis. That is the only situation where a tackle is a must, and that happens rarely in a game. Apart from that, there is no rule that says you must tackle as part of your routine 90 minute play. So going around counting number of tackles is not a valid or sensible measure of a players worth. It is the most INANE use of football stat I have ever seen.

Of the top 20 tacklers in EPL this season (full of luminaries like Erik Pieters, Claudia Yacob and other wastemen), only Ngolo Kante will make EPL team of the season. So much for counting tackles to judge players.

I know we have NGolo Kante who favours that style of play which is making us to puff our chest that no midfielder tackles more than him, yet the 2nd highest tackling midfielder in Chelsea midfield history is Ramires, a wasteman if there ever was one.

Tackling is just a style of play. Even Whoscored recognises tackling as a style of play.

Airmark has already given you a comprehensive answer, but I will add this.

The top 20 tacklers in the league (adjusted for appearances) according to whoscored sees an entry from every single team in the top 6, except for the team where they don't coach tackles.

The main DM from Chelsea is in the top 20. The main DM for Arsenal is there. The main DM for Liverpool is there. Both of Spurs DMs dey there. Ander Herrera is there. If you chose to expand the dragnet to top 30, you will find Fernandinho chilling at number 27 on the list.

There are 264 players in total on that list, but the main DMs of all the teams chasing a spot in Europe have a place in the top 30. That tells me that tackling is not just a last ditch corrective measure. It tells me that all the top teams actually need people to make tackles in the middle of the park.

Defensive midfielders don't usually make team of the season, because those sort of awards are usually skewed towards attacking players. In 2013/2014 there was no DM in the PFA team. In 2014/2015, the midfielder with the highest number of tackles in the league made the team. In 2015/2016 the midfielder with the highest number of tackles made the team. In 2016/2017, the DM with the highest number of tackles is expected to make the team. So I'm not sure why you're telling me about Erik Pieters or Claudio Yacob.

I think that Maldini's supposed quote should not be taken at face value. That quote has been floating around on the internet on its own for years, rather than as part of an interview so there is no context. Also the quote would have no doubt been given in italian (If at all), so there could be potentially a mixup in translation as well.

Below is Maldini making a lot of mistakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-4gw7mmE0c

As someone who played with the likes of Nesta and Gattuso, I genuinely doubt that Maldini would be so flippantly dismissive about the art of tackling.

How are you going to show out the likes of Hazard or Messi? How are you going to show out the walking cliche Mr Robben?

It's not a coincidence that the likes of Neymar and Hazard draw career threatening fouls every match day. Only against Manyoo we saw that a defensive coach like Jose Mourinho had already decided that the only way to stop Hazard was to tackle him. Airmark please post that gif of Smelling trying to show out Hazard. That's what happens when you try to jockey around players who have quicker feet and quicker brains than the defender.

Tackling is a very important tool in the skill set of any half decent defensive player. You cannot be a defender or defensive midfielder and not know how to tackle. I mean just look at what's happening over there where the manager doesn't coach tackles. .

UrennaNkoli:
Any top coach will gladly accept Nathan ake and relegate thiago to where he belongs.

I like your style.

Keep doing God's work.