₦airaland Forum

PhysicsQED: By all means, do pursue whatever your agenda is on this thread, but please, while doing so, don't mislead other people with incorrect information.

The language spoken by the people of the city you said you are residing in (Benin city) is called Edo by those who speak it (the 'Bini' (Edo) people). It's rarely called 'Bini' by those who speak it, and no older 'Bini' (Edo) person with the least bit of familiarity with his/her culture calls it that - at the very most, a younger Bini person abroad might refer to it that way. The rest of those languages (Esan dialects, Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc.) in Edo state are sometimes called "Edoid" by academics or laymen who picked up the term from academics, in order to indicate that they are "similar to Edo" (that they have linguistic similarities to the language of the 'Bini'). However, calling non-Bini groups from the old Bendel state that speak closely related languages (to that of the Bini) by the name Edo or calling them Edo people is more of a modern thing - and there definitely isn't anything wrong with doing that - but understand that the frequent use of "Bini" is just to specify a particular group and avoid possible confusion about what group one is referring to - it's not that it's truly a proper term.

Also please don't give people the impression that the 'Bini' actually "prefer to answer Bini." It's not even remotely true that the "Bini," prefer to answer to the name Bini either in reference to the people or the language. The preference is for the word Edo. If Edo is not used - perhaps to avoid confusion about what group is being referred to - then the preference is for terms like "Benin people" or "Benin language." I am yet to see this supposed fondness for the term "Bini" on the part of the Bini manifest itself in real life after growing up in a Bini family and interacting with Bini friends and relatives throughout my life - neither parents nor any other family members used the term. Frequent use of the term Bini by Nigerians (whether Bini or non-Bini) occurs just to indicate a specific group of people and avoid any possible modern day confusion (over whether one is referring to the 'Bini' alone, or to other surrounding groups as well), not because the people themselves (the Edo/'Bini'/Benin people) have some particular fondness for the term. Also, it's just not true that "Within Bini, there r numerous dialects," as you stated in your post. That's also incorrect. As for the rest of what you posted, I don't think that anything you wrote was any sort of new revelation to anybody. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread was claiming that the Edo language ('Bini') is mutually intelligible with any Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc. or that there is some sort of "all unifying central Edo dialect" (such as the type Enahoro and others wanted to construct) or any of the other things you referenced in the rest of your post.

Just let the matter rest. Whatever good points you wanted to make in your earlier posts, you've already made, and now you're just veering off into stuff you seem not to have actually looked into.

I could say thanks 4d clarification. I think where we missed it here is or would I say where I missed youth. Binis are truly the ones known as ethnically 'edo' WHILE the Esan, Etsakor, Owan are known as 'Edo speaking ppls' (according to wikipedia). It's just that the name 'Edo state' has really made the other edo speaking ppls see demselvs as Edo ppl in like vain with binis and wheneva Edo is bein mentioned, u shuldn't really feel only the ethnically edo (bini) ppl will respond, that's just d truth.
I school in edo state nd hv dem as inlaws/family members (etsakor in particular) nd one of my estakor inlaw, a lady on a particular day met an Esan man from Ehor an they proudly identified as one edo ppl (in a form of ethnicity) and I argued with dem that they are not one, that she is Etsakor and he is Esan, but they both rebuked me and said that they are Edos first before their towns and their dialects. So with that you'd not but conclude that until bini is mentioned, u can hardly actually refer to Edo (bini) ppl.
Do u know d ppl of igueben LGA? They r most likely grouped as Esan, bt I mst tell u dat so many of dem see demselvs as more bini than Esan, they are just like hybrid bini/esan. They understand both standard Bini and Esan and because their dialect is jst like a merging of both languages, they answer bini names as well as Esan names, many binis evn claim that their own igueben dialect is closer to bini proper than som oda bini dialects sharin boundary with urhoboland. So really, where do u actually wnt to place such ppl like d igueben, ethnically Edo or Edo speaking ppls? These ppl r quite only more regarded Esan because they r in Edo central nd not Edo south. That's like same thin with Owan ppl, they are like a mix of Esan and Etsakor. Some of them will tell u dat they r ethnically esan, others ethnically Etsakor while some will just say 'owan'. With all these similarities I tell u is what makes most of dem outside Edo state or Niger-delta just refer to themselvs as Edo, if u ask them their tribe in Kaduna persay, they'll just tell u Edo, both Esan, bini, Owan, Akoko-edo (except mayb igarra). Until u ask dem which part of edo b4 they may specify, nd instead of som of dem to evn tell u bini, esan or etsakor, they may just go further to tellin u d name of their towns instead.
That just tells u nothin but d fact that there is a greater common Edo consciousness amongst dem all in d form of an ethnicity. So when we say Edo languages or edo dialects, we cannot but refer to them all.

bigfrancis21: Yea, the Rivers people speak central Igbo among themselves. Its one interesting thing about them. When the Ikwerre man meets an Etche man, they speak central Igbo and not pidgin English like in Edo state.

When you arrive in port-harcourt, you'll think you've arrived in another Igbo town. It is one anyway. You hear Igbo spoken everywhere - on the streets, in the market, etc. Church services are held in Igbo with Igbo songs renting the air. Igbo is deeply rooted and used there such that many kalabari and okirikans speak Igbo fluently. An example is Patience Jonathan from Okirika who speaks Igbo like a native.

Also, Rivers Igbo dialects are very easy to understand. Their Igbo is the same with what you'll hear in other southern Igbo cities of Aba, Owerri. They are 90% the same with central Igbo already. So they might not necessarily feel the need to speak 'central Igbo' when what they are speaking is already 90% central Igbo. When the Ikwerre man, or Etche man, or Ndoni man speaks, you'll understand him clearly. Its just like Onitsha Igbo which is very easy to understand and speak. Because everybody understands Onitsha, the Onitsha man rarely feels the need to speak central Igbo since you'll understand him when he speaks. You should know central Igbo was gotten from all the Igbo dialects and that the vocabulary(words) of central Igbo is mostly from southern Igbo(Imo, Abia, Rivers) while the sentence lexis and structure are from Northern Igbo(Anambra, Delta Igbo, Enugu). Onitsha people and Anambra in general rarely speak central Igbo yet you'll understand them perfectly and they are proud Igbos. The only time Anambra people feel compelled to speak central Igbo is when with people from other states, and despite that they still speak Anambra Igbo(Onitsha precisely) because everybody will still understand it and also, many Igbos love the Anambra Igbo dialect. You'll see here that speaking central Igbo isn't a must or factor that makes a group 'properly Igbo'.

One other thing I'll like you to know is that central Igbo was constructed mostly for speakers of Igbo dialects which are very difficult to understand by other Igbos. Dialects such as Owerri and Mbaise(imo), Arochukwu(Abia), Nsukka and Nkanu(Enugu), Ikwo, Izzi, Ohaozara(Ebonyi), Ohaji/Egbema(Imo and Rivers) Igbo, etc are difficult to understand by an Igbo from other areas. So these people often speak central Igbo to other Igbos and speak their respective dialects within themselves.

I once read a website where it was written that the Ikas use central Igbo or their dialect in public meetings and official matters. I was shocked to read that, coming from a group where many deny being Igbo.

You made mention of Owerri and Mbaise. Owerri and Mbaise Igbo are virtually the same, save for a few word differences and each group converse in Owerri/Mbaise together.

Ok thanks 4d clarification on especially rivers igbos. So it could really b concluded that d denial of igboness amongst some of them is nothin but a result of political issues. But these rivers igbos, do they not really share very close kinship and common ancestry with their closest igbo neighbours in the southern parts of the south-east? because I think if they really do, they will neva see reasons 4 rejecting an igbo identity, as they will see themselvs as ppl who cannot do without their closest kins in part of the south-east. For instance maybe Ikwerre ppl have very similar or very close culture and ancestry with Mbaise ppl, and they maintain and esteem that relationship, I don't think you would have eva heard them talking of prefering to be with Niger-deltan tribes. It really seems like many of these rivers igbo tribes share closer cultural affinity with the other niger-deltan tribes, because I don't really think that political difference/issues could be ever greater than cultural oneness and unity.


Yea, thank God u really did not assert that delta igbos speak central igbo and u know that their languages are very diiferent from central igbo. I was born in delta state and we know that majority of these delta igbos will tell u dat they can only hear general igbo but they cannot speak. Many do not evn hear very well. These delta igbos hv mostly gone by with demselvs by speaking and hearing each odas dialect and not central igbo, or sometimes they evn use pidgin. Those ppl who said ikas speak central igbo or use it in their meetings fluently is just uninformed to me. Only those of them who hv stayed in main igboland speak central igbo. So I can really say it has contributed to a reason of their igbo denial.

Radoillo II: There are many areas on which we agree. I don't make it my business how anybody chooses to identify himself. And I don't understand my igbo brothers who exert themselves on this forum over the issue of whether certain south-south groups should ethnically identify as igbo or not. There are south-south people who identify as igbo; there are south-south people who DON'T. We all should be able to live with that.

My problem is only with the linguistic aspect of things, and not ethnic identity. The Austrians , for example, are increasingly viewing themselves as an ethnic group distinct from the Germans. They don't have to reclassify their tongue as Germanoid for that distinction they want to be realizable. Language and ethnicity don't neccessarily have to go together.

I believe the linguistic classification that uses such terms as 'Igboid' fails to take into consideration how diverse "Igbo proper" is. It's like saying Zulu and Xhosa are Nguni proper, and Ndebele and Swazi are Ngunoid. Kay Williamson was one of the earliest linguists to make such a distinction (Igbo-Igboid), and she wasn't objective in her classification. She was influenced in her conclusions by post-1970 political considerations.

Let me try and make myself a little clearer: if you say the Ogbah people of Rivers speak Igboid. Then it means that a monolithic Igbo language has been identified, and the Ogbah only speak a tongue similar to that monolithic Igbo. But monolithic Igbo doesn't exist: Ogbah is as different from Oratta, as Ngwa is different from Nkanu. The linguiststs (who you consider competent) clearly haven't done a neat job here.

Since monolithic Igbo doesn't exist, then Igboid is a superfulous term. We all speak cognate tongues (dialects or languages, call it whichever you like) which I think it is fair to group as 'Igbo'; igbo being as all embracing as 'Nguni' (Zulu, Xhosa etc) or 'Akan'(Asante, Fante) or 'Latin' (French, Spanish etc).

Note that I only disagree with the classification scheme, which honestly shows the linguists' lack of understanding of the language situation in this part of southern Nigeria. People speaking different Igbo languages/dialects may ethnically identify themselves however they like; ethnicity is, after all, often a political issue.

Kudos bros. U made so much sense with this your explanation, especially with that term 'monolithic igbo'.

Pls let me ask u, all these rivers igbo (ekpeye, ogba, nkwerre) and delta igbo (ndokwa, ika, anochia), do they speak central igbo as a general language amongst themselvs and with the south-eastern igbos? Am not so sure.....
because I know many anioma do not speak central igbo but may only hear.
I guess this has been a major reason 4d distancin and mayb little of politics and regional classification. because I feel they may deem all those south-eastern igbos who use a common central igbo as 'igbo ethnically', and they who are not part of that circle but somewhat close as 'Igboid' or NOT IGBO.
Bcause I seriously doubt that if an ika and Ndokwa man were speakin central igbo with demselvs as a general tongue (to supplement their distinct tongues) just as an Owerri man and an Mbaise man will do (to also supplement their distict tongues), will then start denying their igboness or igbo oneness. I think d problem with some of u is dat u don't understand d power of a common uniting language.

As for those here who are claiming that there is a language like Edo language, I seriously laugh at them. I make it bold to say that dat identity edo is just by means of being from the same state (political) or by ancestry. Ethnically and linguistically, these ppl r very quite different. Some ppl here evn attribute 'Edo' only to 'Bini' cultures. Yes d ancient Bini kingdom is d root of all Edo nd Edoid ppls, no doubt. Many Edo ppll dnt like to identify themselvs with dat common identity 'Edo' ethnically. They prefer to answer Bini, Esan, Etsakor, Owan e.t.c. Though they manage som levels of similarities amongst themselvs, but the Bini (edo south) man knows the Etsakor (edo north) man is as far frm him culturally as the Urhobo man in delta state. Within Bini, there r numerous dialects, within Etsakor, there are evn dialects that don't understand each other and use pidgin as a general language. An Esan man nd bini man meets and pidgin english is their general language just as the bini man and d urhobo man. They is no central Edo dialect that all Edo tribes use as a general tongue unlike Igbos and yorubas have despite their very distinct dialect nd sub-cultures. I really think to a large extent, that defines ethnicity. That no mata how their individual dialects are, they should have a common dialect (native 2their ethnicity) that unites them. Rather u have central Esan dialect that all d various Esan dialects speak, u have central bini that all the bini dialects speak. These so called 'one edo ppl' have no general cultural days, organisations, symbols and practices that bind them together, unlike u have Afenifere, Ohaneze e.t.c. Pls ppl should really try to get that. Esan see themselvs as much edo as bini or etsakor, only that bini is like the motherland where they all agree of their origin. Prior to the breakin of Old Bendel state, there was really nothin like an 'edo identity' where Esan, bini n Etsakor see themselvs as one very different from the urhobo, anioma (delta igbos) and ijaws. No! Urhobos are as much of ancient bini origin as etsakors are, only that they are now in a different state, with typically difrent non-edoid neighbours like ijaw nd anioma.

PhysicsQED and Big Francis. The akoko-edo ppl hv so much closness with akoko ondo, pls no doubt. I am presently in benin, edo state now, I have an akoko edo hostel mate nd believe me he always believed that his ppl were ancestrally from Ondo precisely, in fact I was the one who challenged him to som researches before he discoverd that they were more bini (Edo) than yoruba ancestrally. Those ppl r just mixed up. The igarras among dem have ebira origin mixed with yoruba elements. I'm in Uniben area and have 3 other friends from same akoko edo area from difrent tribes there, and believe me, these ppl r just too fit to be yorubas, yoruba (oyo) is almost all they speak. Do you know that there was/is a demand for the creation of Akoko state of which the Akoko-edo ppl were to be merged with with those akoko of Ondo state? Though I must say that many akoko edo ppl r now havin a firmer grip of their edo roots and some stopped answering their yoruba names (especially those who are more edo than yoruba). The conclusion is that the ppl are mixed. Some more Edoid and some more yoruboid. It's more than a thing of boundary.

Pagan naija, pls which state r u from in Nigeria if I may ask? It seems like are maguzawa

Anoda major point I would also like to draw to u is d fact that 'central igbo' which is general igbo today is nobody's native dialect as I was told, dat it was just a combination of difrent igbo dialects to create a common language for all difrent igbo sub-groups. But u must know that the general yoruba dialect (oyo) dialect of today is the only native language of Oyo/Osun ppl, they have no other dialect. While the Ijebu, Okun, Igbomina, Egba, Ekiti e.t.c have their own individual native dialects very diffrent from oyo dialect and they stil at the same time manage to speak the Oyo dialect. This clearly tells u dat the major yoruba identity should be founded on the culture of the oyo ppl and nothin else.
This is somehow similar to hausa ppl, the general hausa dialect is based on the kano dialect. Sokoto, katsina, daura, Gobir, zamfara, jigawa e.t.c have their own individual dialects, but they stll manage to speak the general kano dialect for general comunication. This can also tell u dat the hausa culture of today might be founded more on Kano culture. Sub-group culture though in hausaland is not too distinct from one anoda unlike yorubaland, because Danfodio helped to unite all the hausa states long before colonialism by Jihad. But prior to Jihad, all d former hausa states were very difrent and evn go to war with each oda, they neva had a homogenous identity.
What about the ijaws? Till today they have neva fully agreed to a common identity, that's why they are mostly adressed as d 'Ijo clusters' and not the 'Ijaw ethnicity' some times. because to the Orogbo ijaw man in Ondo, he is very much closer to yoruba culture, language and ancestry, while to the Kalabari ijaw man, he feels more connected to the igboid tribes of rivers state, the Andonni ijaw man to akwa-ibom tribes and those ijaws in delta, to the delta tribes and so on.
So pls try to get what Macof is relaying to you.

bigfrancis21: All these long history lessons you're giving me, I know them already. I know about the Ilajes and Apoi Ijaws who are Ijaws by blood.

By trying to classify edo people in the same heel with ekiti/iwo etc or use them to compare with oyo as you use ekiti and iwo, you're covertly asserting that they are somewhat yoruba but with a divergent language when in actuality there's no common/linking language between both groups. The past and present obas of benin themselves have come out severally to debunk the erroneous beliefs being paraded here that edos are yorubas.

The same way you'd clearly see a very distinct group such as edo - distinct in language from yoruba yet want to include them under the umbrella of yoruba. Why don't you also include Igbo, Hausa, Ibibio as well? Afterall, come in Igbo isn't wa, boy in Igbo is nwoke and not yoruba etc.

That's the kind of logic macof uses as his own basis for classification and that's where he gets it all wrong.

Coming to Igbo, nsukka, owerri, ikwo in ebonyi state, mbaise, ohaji/egbema dialects are very different and distinct from each other. Nsukka Igbo is so different that non-nsukka visitors to nsukka land don't understand nsukka dialect until after some months of living there. Their pronunciations are different, many words different too. For eg, I am fine. Adi m mma(central/onitsha igbo) adu m oyi(nsukka igbo).

Comparison between Onitsha Igbo and Nsukka Igbo
Welcome. Nno. Deeje
Good. mma. oyi
Market. Afia. eshua
Where/place. ebe. mbe
Afternoon. efifie. eshushue
How are you? Kedu? I mee agaa?
I'm fine. Odinma. Adu m oyi
Thank you. Daalu. Deeme
Land. Ani. Ela

Comparison between Onistha Igbo and Owerri Igbo
Place. ebe. nga
Slap. ula. akanti
Dress. efe. uwe
How are you? Kedu? Olia?
I'm fine. Odinma. Ari m mma
Box. Akpati. Igbe
House. Bee. Uyo
Now. Kita. Ugbulaaka
Peace. Ndokwa. Udo
Thank you Daalu. I meela
Land. Ani. Ala

Following macofs logic, then Nsukka and Owerri Igbo are not 'Igbo' so to say, but are only Igbo because they speak central Igbo as second language.

How interesting.

Coming to English you have soo many differences between American and British English. Even Nigerians that travel to US have to adopt the american terms for many words else they won't be understood when speaking.

US. British
Faucet. Tap
Pants. Trousers
Living room. Parlour
Soda. Mineral
Vest. Singlet
Underpants. Underwears
Trunk. Bonnet
Hood. Sweaters

And so many of them. The same way I could also claim that US and British English are non-english using these respective differences between them. Thanks to Macof's logic. Take a trip to England and enter deep into its village and tell me if you'll understand a word of what they say there. This is british english spoken differently from london english and US english yet its still called English, despite the huge difference and lack of mutuality with other English dialects.

What unifies several dialects of a common language, no matter the degree of divergence, is the presence of common aspects to both and the level of the commonality between the both.

Does Macof think Historians were dumb when they studied african languages and subjugated them into well-delineated groups? Why did historians, despite the glaring differences between Oyo and Ekiti ot Iwo, still classify them as yoruboid languages? Because of the commonality between both dialects and the oyo dialect.

Using mere differences in dialects as a basis of classification of a group is totally baseless.

Big francis, do u know dat most Nsukka ppl are ancestrally Igala? If u doubt pls go and find out, same with some anambra ppl. So I believ that the Nsukka dialect shuld bare many influences from igala language, same way many delta igbos have been heavily influenced by Bini culture and language and many Rivers igbos by ijaw. Infact I evn think it's more than that, today many delta and rivers igbos are rejecting igbo origin and claiming bini and ijaw. Sayin that they only came unda d igbo identity by colonial groupin and otherwise, alas this is same thing dat Macof is talking of. Infact I hv met many ika ppl of delta igbo dat proved to me so well that their culture is even more bini than igbo, that igbo culture only influenced them, and I was really astonished. because the similarities they could draw out in their language and cultures with bini (edo) was just too numerous. Similar to many rivers igbos who are completely culturally and ethnically ijaw but linguistically igbo.
So pls, I think U shuld b able to diffrentiate language, culture, ethnicity and ancestry in many of your definitions pls.