₦airaland Forum

Hence the main solution to the incesant crisses in the north is for the leaders to engage in massive education and enlightenment programs.
An average working class hausa man will only have time to think about his job and how to feed his small family.

Solid points.

However, I doubt that such education could ever happen.

They are not interested in anything you have to say, unless you're a muslim. Period.

And if you're not a muslim, you're a condemned infidel who should die.

What makes this whole Islam thing worse is that there is the belief that if a muslim kills an infidel, he has 70+ virgins waiting for him in paradise. I didn't make that up.

To be frank, I don't know the solution to Nigeria's disunity. I don't see Hausas/Igbos/Yorubas jointly owning businesses, inter-marrying freely, living under the same roof peacefully, etc. We're just too different. But time will tell.

@Amobi

The discussion has lost focus.

It's now disintegrated into a shouting match between somebody who looks at things realistically, and one who is unwilling to listen to reason, no matter what that reason may be.

A lot of what you said up there is simply rambling. I can't pick out anything of substance. For example, why do I need to know that some Nigerians don't pay for electricity? Why do I need to visit uae? How do you know I haven't visited, or even speak the language? What's the point about my website?

If you have no point to make, just don't say anything. It's better to be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and take away any doubt.

having a social or national data base will do more harm.

How? Please elucidate.

Here is the bottomline,

If you want to manage anything well, you must have a good inventory of it. To manage a population, you must have a record of who the people are. Therefore, a national database is a must. It doesn't cost much to write the application, and would cost even less to manage, making any argument against it ill-conceived.

A white man land is far better eh? i wonder why they don't have any respect for you guys.

Don't worry about white man, worry about your own people in Nigeria who hate you so much, they want to kill you, burn your property, and reduce your place of worship to rubble.

And since you have your papers now why can't you 4get about naija totally.

That is hardly the topic of discussion. Try to stay on course here. You seem like a scatterbrain sensasionalist, who lacks the ability to concentrate. Reasoning doesn't exist in your world. It's either your way, or the highway. I'm doing my part for the country of Nigeria, and that is all you need to know. Not even all the king's horses would make me return to Nigerai at this time.

Let's hear your next incoherent filibuster.

@otitoloju

All of your queries can be answered in two words: weak leadership.

America for example has 50 states + D.C.  Have you ever heard of any clashes between states in America?  I haven't.

Why is that?

1. Religion has no place in America.  You're free to practice any religion you want, but don't impose your will on anyone.  Anytime you hand religious fanatics enough power, you're asking for trouble.  And that includes any religion, not just Islam.  America knows this.

2. Laws are laws in America.  Laws are a joke in Nigeria.  And basically, whenever you have a system where lawlessness reigns supreme, chaos is never far behind.

My view of Nigeria as a whole is that Nigerians are inherently stubborn about accepting facts.  Perhaps ever more disturbing is that Nigerians are generally dishonest people.  Things that we take for granted, things that basically have become a part and parcel of our culture, are things that would trigger headlines in developed nations.  For example, bribery, cronyism, state laws based on religion, lying, cheating, etc.

Sorry Nigerians if the above hurts your feelings, but that is the truth.

I've never been a part of any of the above, and never will.  I prescribe the same to all Nigerians.  That is about the only way we can come out of the quagmire we're currently trapped in.

One last point about Nigerians is that we're extremely greedy people.  Everybody wants to live a flashy life.  That's why people steal in government, irrespective of the oath they took to always serve the interest of the people.  At the end of the day, the interest of the people comes dead last.

What is the answer:  a strong leader.  

[list]
[li]A leader who does not take dictation from religious, or past military leaders.  [/li]

[li]A selfless leader who himself has seen it all and done it all prior to ascending the leadership role.  A rookie may be enticed by material things.[/li]

[li]A fearsome leader who is not afraid of dying for the sake of Nigeria.  Because without a doubt, attempts will be made on such a leader's life.  Murtala is a good example.[/li]

[/list]

We've thus far not had such a leader, but we will.

But until we do, we won't stop talking about it.

If your canarian kills my child, my rottweiler should kill your child also!  Period!

Nobody would say christians in Nigeria haven't been patient enough.
Nobody would say christians haven't turned the other cheek time and again.

No matter how tolerant you are, there is a limit to the endurance you can take.

Islam went too far this time.

Somehow, I don't even want the riots to end just yet.  Am I an advocate of war?  Maybe.  But I didn't start it, they did.

I want enough uprising to the point that Hausas would get the message that christian lives are just as valuable as any.  I want them put in their place.  Hausas need to quit claiming the north as their own.  Nigeria is for Nigerians.

The next time they plan to incite another uprising, let 2006 cartoon incident remind them of what is at stake.

Riot has spread to Enugu,

Seven people died in Enugu on Wednesday in revenge attacks on Muslims following the killings of Christians in the mainly Muslim north of the country.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-24T120706Z_01_L24536355_RTRUKOC_0_US-NIGERIA-FIGHTING.xml&archived=False

You know, I used to think that Nigeria's problems would vanish once the newer generation took office. I'm now seriously doubting this position in view of the recent developments in Nigeria.

So many people are expressing sentiments that clearly spell a lack of intelligence, or a clear-cut prejudice against a religion or tribe. To think that these are the same people that would one day become rulers is shocking to say the least.

Nigeria has a long way to go.

Oasis, the difference is that the civilian muslims in Iraq were not deliberately killed by the Americans.  Their target was a murderous military regime which had the option of surrendering to superior firepower but chose to risk their lives and the lives of their civilian comrades in a fight they cannot win.  As for those innocent muslim killed in suicide bombings, everyone agrees that that is very very unfair and the suicide and car bombers are nothing but barbaric mass murderers.

Very good.  So you do at least agree that circumstances dictate sometimes that innocent lives are taken for a course.

Now apply that principle to the upheaval in Nigeria.

Unless you're a total dunce, you know that christians have been killed with impunity in the past.  This is one last straw that broke the camel's back.  With no other option open to the southerners, whose relatives were unjustly killed in the north, they responded the only way they could.

Innocent northerners got killed.  Yes, innocent people always get killed in a war.

However, the muslims in Onitsha did not constitute a threat to the "Christian" Igbo murderers, but they were executed just because of their tribe.  This was no mistake, this was no accidental discharge.  This was a deliberate, disgusting and entirely wrong act of murder.

It's not deliberate.  What is deliberate is the north killing over a cartoon.  What happened in the south is a response to the occurence in the north.

I hereby  call on the Federal Government to deal with the perpetrators of this Onitsha travesty after dealing with their "muslim" brothers in the north who committed similar acts of murder and gross injustice.  These people are not true muslims or true Christians, because neither Islam nor Christianity support the killing of innocent people.

You can call on the federal government until you're blue in the face.  The federal government is not going to be there to help you when your house is burned down, your relatives killed in the street like animals, and your places of worship reduced to rubble.

If the government did it's duty, and has been doing its duty, we would never have had the killings in Onitsha.

So, you can continue to live in your dream world of law and order.  I prefer to face reality.

Irrespective of what's happening in Nigeria, it's still home.  The only thing we nigerians living abroad can do is to keep praying for the nation.

It's hard to rationalise with a fanatic.  You clearly are fanatical about Nigeria.

It's like having a child that brings nothing but grief to the family, but then your response is always:  Well, he's my son, I can't do anything about it. 

Yes, you can do something.  You can disown him, you can turn him over to the authorities when he commits crimes, etc, until he shapes up.

Maybe if solutions are provided for our problems and they are strictly adhered to, Nigeria will become a better place.

Of course the solutions would make Nigeria a better place.  But how long is too long to wait?

For instance, NEPA should be given to private companies.  At one time I was using British Gas and electricity, later on I decided it was too expensive and I moved to NPower.

Very good point.  When an entity has monopoly, there is zero incentive for innovation.  In other words, competition begets better service.

if these people9Americans, British, etc) decides to send back all foreigners even if you have green, red, yellow or whatever passports, be prepared to go back HOME and establish yourself.  Trust me it can happen,

No, it can't happen if you're a citizen.

The only way you could lose your citizenship is if you commit acts of treason against the nation.

The western nations are not irrational in their thinking to the point that established law-abiding people would suddenly be deported.[quote][/quote]

The muslims in Onitsha did not kill any Igbos or Christians, so the actions in Onitsha constitute gross injustice. When you kill an innocent man or woman or child for one stupid reason or the other, that is grossly unjust.

This kind of thinking shows very shallow mental capacity.

The muslims in Iraq did not kill Americans during 911. Yet, many have been killed in the current Iraq war against terrorism. Is that gross injustice?

I would elucidate, but you've proven beyond any shred of doubt that you lack the capacity for rational thinking when it comes to christianity.

he said "love your enemies" and denounced the infamous "an eye for an eye."

Even God himself wouldn't let sinners get away with murder, let alone humans.

I believe in peace. I believe in loving thy neighbor. But only if my life and the life of my loved ones aren't threatened. That is where I draw the line.

Christians need to fight back too but not "violently".

Good.  Now you're talking.

Go ahead and tell us how christians are supposed to fight with an enemy that hates your guts and wants to kill you.

1. We've already established that roundtable discussions won't work.  So don't go there.

2. We've already established that arresting people is a futile exercise, since arrests are nothing but showboating.  They'd be released soon after without any kind of punishment.  So don't go there.

@WesleyanA

i had to laugh while reading this sentence,
you make me laugh,
you make me laugh do you know what ,

You seem to be laughing a lot at this serious matter.  

Try not to laugh so much, so we can have a civil discourse.  Make your posts more credible by providing links to references.  That elevates your credibility.

And, no more moronic laughter, ok?

Please don't argue with WesleyanA, we already know how she feels about the Igbos, I'm so surprised she's just showing up now. where have you been little miss THING we missed you.

Actually, WesleyanA just met his match.

In Archbishop Akinola's statement, issued on 21st February, he also said, "It is very clear now that the sacrifices of the Christians in this country for peaceful co-existence with people of other faiths has been sadly misunderstood to be weakness. We have for a long time now watched helplessly the killing, maiming and destruction of Christians and their property by Muslim fanatics and fundamentalists at the slightest or no provocation at all, That an incident in far away Denmark which does not claim to be representing Christianity could elicit such an unfortunate reaction here in Nigeria, leading to the destruction of Christian Churches, is not only embarrassing but also disturbing and unfortunate."

Read the full article: http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3659

Oasis, can you tell me how violence has or have been solving this problem?

Yes, I can.

The death toll has been controlled in the north.  Once the message got to the Hausas that the lives of their relatives in the south is in danger, they quickly seized the riots.

Even more than that, this reaction is psychological.  Before the lunatics decide to start another riot in future, they'd think twice.  That is the point of this whole riot in the south.

don't say compromise isn't going to work if it hasn't been tried!

It has been tried, over and over again.  Christian leaders have always come out to appeal to the muslims each time a riot occurs.  Nothing ever gets done about it.

Besides, aren't radical muslims just as brutal in Nigeria as they are anywhere else?  Show me one place where compromise has ever worked with radical muslims?

Quit the lying and deceit please.  Christians have had enough.  More killings will send a message that wanton hooliganism cannot be tolerated, even if the government pretends christians don't exist.

do you actually know the probable implications of this? You would have no right to say moslems are the violent ones anymore.
now we can agree that muslems as well as christians are violent.

Bull! We all know who started it. Are you trying to change history?

I guarantee you that christians will never start a riot like this without being provoked.

Once the stupid riots in the north seize, we'd have peace at last. Until then, an eye for an eye.

compromise is option for a solution. IMO.

Unless you've been living under a rock, or you're utterly blockheaded, you'll know that over and over again christians in the north have taken a beaten at every turn, without retaliation. They've been pushed to the wall this time.

Compromise?

What does compromise mean to a muslim?
How in the world do you compromise with a bully who is out for your blood?
How do you compromise with a religious zealot who believes he'd be rewarded for killing you?

Wake up and smell the coffee. Your post makes absolutely no sense.

I am an American college student. I just read about the retaliatory violence taking place in your country under the guise of disputes over cartoons of Mohammad. I've seen some posts on this board supporting this tit-for-tat violence and I am appalled and disgusted.

Do you support Bush's tit-for-tat in Iraq?

The people that are causing this trouble are very few and they are jobless criminals claiming religion.  Let's not become like them.  If we focus our efforts who says the Apo miracle can't be repeated?

Just like the same jobless criminals who brought down the twin towers on 911?

No, they're not jobless criminals.  They're muslim fundamentalists who would go to any length to kill non-muslims. 

There was an official government action taken to burn Denmark's flag.   This was a Kano Legislators' Actions: A State Sponsored act of Violence. 

For an arm of the government to take part in burning the flag of another nation, over cartoons it had already apologised for, shows how incorrigible these people are.  It also proves that it's not just some jobless riff-raffs carrying out random murders in the north.

Act now, or be forever doomed as they kill again and again, until you do come to your senses and start fighting back.  Sooner or later, someone you love would be tragically cut down.

All those problems have not been solved by violence in other countries.

Hitler was stopped by violence.  His reign of terror stopped.

Saddam Hussein no longer has power to kill thousands of his own people, after he was violently removed from power.

A measure of force is needed to make a bully stop and listen.

The killings in Onitsha are justified.  More killings would occur until the purveyors of murder in the north get the message that it is wrong to attack innocent christians.

Ok, I can see where you are missing it.  Let me explain something about death penalty:
- The death penalty is not given to innocent people of the same tribe as a murderer.
- The death penalty is not given to the brothers, sisters, mother or father of a murderer.
- The death penalty is not given to the children or friends of a murderer.

That was just an analogy to buttress my point that two wrongs makes right sometimes.
I'm not using it as an argument for the uprising in Onitsha.

As long as someone argues that two wrongs don't make a right, then nobody should have the power to impose the death penalty, because it won't bring back the victims.  Right?  But I say no, two wrongs makes a right, because it acts as a warning to would-be hooligans in the north against future attacks on innocent minorities.

If two wrongs don't make a right, then America should never have killed innocent people in Afghanistan in pursuit of peace while fighting the Alqueda and Taliban.  Right?

Wrong!  

If the Igbos went to Maiduguri to investigate the murder of their brothers, and they got evidence that so and so is the culprit, and they killed those people, then that will be taking laws into their own hands.  It would be wrong, and they would still be liable of prosecution as murderers, but we will still be able to understand a little bit.

I understand your view.  But it only applies in an ideal world.  Unfortunately, Nigeria is far from ideal.
How can Igbos travel to Maiduguri to investigate murders committed by muslims?  The people who would help unveil the truth are also loyal muslims.  So that idea is not feasible.

But the act of killing innocent Hausas who love Igbos so much that they have decided to live in Onitsha is an act of barbaric first degree murder.  The perpetrators should be arrested and punished with maximum penalty, and those that are urging them all should also be sternly cautioned (it is wrong to encourage someone to commit a crime).

I keep hearing this:

The perpetrators should be arrested and punished with maximum penalty

from you.  But the fact is, nobody is doing the arresting.

I'm all for due process, if it's being done.  But it's not.

As it turns out, even when people do get arrested, they're released soon after unscathed.  Who is fooling who?

In an advanced nation like America or the UK, all uprising would be carefully investigated, and the perpetrators brought to justice.  But not in Nigeria.  Therefore, the people need to defend themselves by any means necessary.

And I forgot to tell those who are preaching tolerance that tolerance is like elasticity, it might last long but it has its limit! No matter how peacful you are, when the other party is being constantly troublesome, a time would come when you stand up and say "Enough is Enough"!!!

Don't get worked up over Seun.  He has an agenda on this forum.

His agenda is to keep fueling the flame by taking the opposite side.  But in reality, he knows that what you're saying is the absolute fact.

Clearly, nobody in his right minds would favor repeated northern unprovoked attacks, while the victims remain dormant.

Also, does the poll seem bogus to anybody?   It's been 80/20 since it started, yet the discussion shows more like 50/50.  People are split down the middle on this issue.  Is Seun trying to pull the wool over our eyes?  I hope we're getting a true representation of the will of the people here, and not merely an impression somebody wants to put out there.  That would be quite unfortunate if that's the case.

The quote, two wrongs don't make a right does not apply to offenders as jail sentences are only given for correction and to desuade you from engaging in such acts next time.

Nope! You're wrong.

What about the death penalty that America has? A lot of people use the two wrongs don't make a right argument against the death penalty, but is death penalty not given for correction and to desuade you from engaging in such acts next time?

Think about it.

two wrongs do not make a right.

It does sometimes.  I don't follow adages blindly without considering its implications.

If two wrongs don't make a right, why do we have laws to punish wrong-doers? We should just pat criminals in the back and say "don't do it again". Instead, we punish them. Why?

They say power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Therefore, if Hausas understand that they can kill other Nigerians with impunity, they'd only get more brazen in their resolve to kill more.

On the other hand, knowing that their relatives/businesses/mosques in other parts of the country are not safe, until they put a stop to the senseless killings, Hausas would think twice in future before starting another riot.

As far as I'm concerned, the incident in Onitsha is a reaction to something that happened in the north.  Without the killings in the north, no killing would have occured in the south.  That makes it a fight to put a stop to future insanity in the north.

@owo

Where did you come from?  You're a realist.

@axeprince

Thanks for that report.

I grew up in the north myself, and speak Hausa fluently. So I know how divided Nigeria is. It's like oil and water. They don't mix.

I don't know that there ever can be a one Nigeria. Hausas are too stubborn when it comes to Islam. I've heard Hausas say there is no true Hausaman that is a christian. That is how fanatical they are about the religion.

Are we talking reality here or what seun thinks?

In other words, Seun is a nonentity when it comes to facts?  You're saying the guy is not a realist?

Please go read between the lines, if this maiming and killing where taking place in the niger delta we would have had helicopter gunships there by now. Do you remember Odi? Only a few soldiers where killed and the whole village was leveled.

I don't know if you've followed this whole thread, or you skipped most of it.  You are re-affirming the same points that I've been harping on all along.   That the federal government cares nothing about christian lives in the north, which invariably justifies the reactions in Onitsha.

I maintain my position as a supporter of the reaction in Onitsha.

Indeed! Where are the innocent people killed in Iran and pakistan? Everyone knows that the middle east has been a cauldron of violence for years, flag burning and embassy attacking did not start today and shld not be confused with the cartoon issue.

Before you obfuscate the issue, let's backtrack.

I stated that the issue in northern Nigeria is beyond Nigeria's borders.  You disagreed, saying nobody was killed anywhere else in the world.

I then gave you a list of places where people did get killed over the cartoon issue (Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, etc).

You retorted, saying people who died in those places I listed are not innocent.  C'mon!

Your effort to sidetrack us, by saying the killings in the middle east had nothing do with the cartoons is utter rubbish.  It's all over the net.  If you disagree, then let's get into producing references to back our individual position.  I can supply you with dozens of references.  If you can't match that number, you lose.

in fact me refuse to be drawn into arguments with those who only browse google and think they know it all!!!

You can't refuse to argue, that is the oldest trick in the book.  You're in this already, and you're a coward if you flee. 

I can hear people laughing while reading your dim-witted statement "those who only browse google and think they know it all".  Where else are you supposed to find information online if not the search engines?  Please.

Can definitely relate to the over dependence on technology. I've gone back to basics, by now using a diary where i write down my appoinments and addresses. My Palm Pilot decided to reset itself (wiping out all my information in the process) while i was travelling.
It wasn't funny i felt so helpless, the minute i got back i put the damn thing on ebay.

That brings back memories.

Same scenario, I was on a trip, and my organizer gave out.  I haven't had another one since.

Technology is great.  But have a backup plan.

Who killed who in denmark where the cartoons where published?

Why would anybody be killed in Denmark where muslim population is a paltry 4%?

Did we hear of any deaths in saudi arabia, the acclaimed home of islam and the "prophet"?

Why Arabia? Saudis are not known for open riots.

How about Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, etc. Innocent people killed, embassies burned. Oh, I know, you're on a different Internet than I am. That must explain your ignorance.

Please wholly consider issues before making irrelevant and uninformed comments.

Time to take back those comments. You clearly are the uninformed.

The Federal Government is "doing nothing" about this incidence because they know whom they are dealing with, this is a north vs south issue and Obasanjo knows better than to clash with the sokoto caliphate. He knows better than to take on the northern hegemony that has held us to ransom since 1960!

He knows better than to the sokoto caliphate? I'm sure Seun will have a beef with you on that statement. He says all rioters are being arrested, but you say nothing is being done. Are you lying, or is he lying?

When ibos where slaughtered in their thousands in 1996, was it about cartoons or religion?
Is this the 10th time this same situation is happening?
Are there no muslims in the south and east too?

You're rambling. When you're ready to clearly express yourself, I'd respond.

the killings in the north did not start today.it has been there before independence.govt did nothing.now the victims are defending themselves,by making a point that no one can lay claim to a monopoly of violence.

Christians would always have one foot in the grave, especially the ones residing in the north, unless something is done about Islamic extremism in Nigeria.

These things are possible:

1. The government fulfils its duty to the people to serve and protect.
2. Christians and muslims come up with a non-violence pact in equitable negotiations.
3. The christians themselves adopt vigilante justice to defend their life and property.

It's an understatement to say the first option has been a woeful failure.
The second statement is a joke, since muslims won't negotiate with an "infidel".

That leaves option 3.

Yes, we need to tell the federal government to do a lot of things Seun.

In the meantime while the government is doing nothing at all about it, what is your solution to the problem?

I know you're not dumb. So kindly read the question and furnish the appropriate response.

My bone of contention here is The federal government is doing nothing about it..

So, please let us know how you propose to get anybody arrested and brought to justice.

Infact let me say it has Limitation, because there kind of skill you will want to archive, but with HTML alone bro far from it broder.

What kind of limitation?

The only limitation I know is if you don't understand html/css enough.

The problem with wysiwyg is that once you start using them, you're trapped. You can't just jump on any computer and start working, unless your favorite wysiwyg program is installed on it.

In my case, I use only notepad to write my webpages, and that is available on any computer.

You don't have to accept new technology. You can consciously live like the Amish do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

All of Nigeria's problems cannot be solved in one fell swoop, but any president that can provide these fundamentals will equip Nigeria with a solid foundation for growth and, dare I say it, prosperity.

Very well said.

For those who know some chemistry, there is a type of reaction called Exothermic Reaction. These types of chemical reactions can often sustain themselves energy-wise until completion. However, the reaction needs some energy in the beginning to get started, called Activation Energy.

Nigeria today is like an exothermic reaction that has the potential to do great once it's set in motion. However, Nigeria needs a strong leader that'd supply it with Activation Energy.

Christians in the north are being killed. Churches are being burned.

The federal government is doing nothing about it. If you're a victim of these killings, too bad.

What is your solution to this problem?

Response please.

Christians in the north are being killed. Churches are being burned.

The federal government is doing nothing about it. If you're a victim of these killings, too bad.

What is your solution to this problem?

Good. You have agreed that violence is necessary from time to time to bring about peace.

Now, on to the question of why people don't go to the north to fight.

It's simple. When northerners know that their people in other parts of the country aren't safe, they'd think twice before shedding the blood of another innocent christian in the north.

When they know that their mosques in other parts of the country aren't safe, they'd think twice before setting another church on fire.

It's that simple.