Saw this after typing a whole note. This is the last time I am ever trying to draw the line between the two, they just hate the fact that real and grounded CS graduates are preferred at the top and makes more. They can continue competing with the worst CS graduates and feel that's what CS encompass.

chineduuf:
Saw this after typing a whole note. This is the last time I am ever trying to draw the line between the two, they just hate the fact that real and grounded CS graduates are preferred at the top and makes more. They can continue competing with the worst CS graduates and feel that's what CS encompass.

Bro, who are your comments directed to?

You people should calm down. No one is competing with you CS graduates. The sky is big enough and you people are more preferred.

Besides, there is more to CS than software development/engineering.

iLearner:


You're right actually.

But again, I feel people shouldn't just delve into some aspects of programming without some mathematical background. I am a Statistics student and I know how much of advanced Statistics there is in Data Science.

Thanks for this info

Wanted to do masters in DS.
But don't like statistics.
Will continue CS

Grandlord:


For a self-taught developer who wants to get a job quickly it will take a long time learning core concepts of computer science and so it is not necessary considering the situation. So they can go on and learn the frameworks and apply for jobs.

But to stay relevant and indispensable and to completely understand what you're working with, you need to stay curious and continue learning instead of saying algorithms and maths are not necessary...which is ignorant.

As a matter of fact, with the advent of no-code and less-code platforms and tools, a developer who doesn't go deeper in learning will find himself irrelevant and redundant because the shallow things he knows how to do will be taken over by drag-and -drop... which is already happening today with Wix etc.

Funny enough it's true, the people who make those frameworks are more useful than the ones who depend on them blindly.

tosinhtml:


I am average in maths, no shame in making this pronouncement, It has affected me in some areas but not so much. No one would really say math is not needed to be honest.

Those sorting algorithms are actually easy to understand & I didn't need to be a math guru to understand sorting algorithms. Those examples are every where online for Quicksort, Merge sort etc for anyone who wants to learn.

If you want to see the algorithm behind sorting, you can easily double click on the core function itself using any IntelliJ IDE or other IDEs, It should show you the function behind it. It is not as complicated as you make it seem.

Seeing the code doesn't change much man, understanding the algorithm behind it means more than reading code worst of all, algorithm complexities are rubbish to the CPUs eyes, some instructions take more time to compute for example the trivial a == 0 takes more time to compute than a xor a, of course compilers take care of this but there are others which a compiler can't really optimise, programming has to be understood both on the logic, mathematical and hardware level.

tensazangetsu20:

Mathematics can be learnt o. Don't discourage anyone. Most people have really bad mathematics backgrounds because of the rubbish teachers we had in secondary schools in Nigeria. There are a lot of online courses and sites that teach mathematics really well.

Where can I lay my hands on these courses and sites?

chineduuf:
Saw this after typing a whole note. This is the last time I am ever trying to draw the line between the two, they just hate the fact that real and grounded CS graduates are preferred at the top and makes more. They can continue competing with the worst CS graduates and feel that's what CS encompass.

Bro what the f#ck are you even saying?? Didn't you read the part where i said getting a CS degree is not a joke and should not be treated as such?? After you've gotten a Cs degree, wouldn't you choose an area of specialty?. Let me even burst your brain, whatever branch of computer science you choose to specialize in, a random dude can take those same lessons and know exactly what you know (if not more). Both Harvard and Stanford CS classes are on youtube. If you and i both apply for the same role at google, whoever demonstrates practical knowledge in form of actual software created is who's gonna get hired.

What do you mean by real and grounded Cs graduates are preferred at the top and makes more? Do you not understand that every employer in the tech ecosystem wants to see what you can actually do? Like practical, niched knowledge. I've seen this play out time and time again.

Make una dey calm down abeg

I can relate to this. I attempted building the sort function in JavaScript on my own. Understood the logic behind it but coding it in an efficient way? Boy oh boy my brain hear am! I had to abort mission!!

Grandlord:


Emphasis on BIG DATA

A software engineer can't be 'average in maths' . He must be very proficient in discrete mathematics, Boolean algebra, etc.

The confusion here is that people fail to understand that there are levels in software development. There are programmers that depend on reusable tools built by other engineers, to do their work. Such tools are abstractions of the tedious mathematical and logical work. But the work had already been done by other engineers more versed in computational maths and logic.

For instance, you can easily use a sort() function to sort your array and move on. But the sort function itself has probably hundreds of lines of mathematical proofs of time efficiency, logic and algorithms underneath it and was written by more versed engineers to make life easier for other programmers.

A programmer who uses tools built by core software engineers should not be oblivious of the work those engineers did and the knowledge there acquired to be able to build those tools. It just shows ignorance and shallowness and it is out of this ignorance they think maths is not needed in programming.

How many programmers could actually develop compilers.?

Really

antiterrorism:
How many programmers could actually develop compilers.?

There is something called, Stomach Driven Development. You have to eat and be okay to think of building a compiler.

A company like Google was already okay and successful as a search engine before thinking of other things.

Building a compiler is something that can be learnt by anyone interested.

Grandlord:

You can see the code for the sorting algorithms alright but do you understand how that code came about? the very reasoning behind it, and why it was written that way?...do you understand the time and space complexity analysis needed to arrive at that code in terms of CPU operations?

You can sort an array in many different ways... quick sort, mergesort, insertion sort, bubblesort etc but why do we choose quicksort and mergesort? do you understand which is fastest in terms of Big O analysis?
Can you prove it mathematically? Do you understand why almost all programming languages use the quicksort algorithm for their sorting function?

How long would it take to sort 1billion data in a dataset with insertion sort? Will we wait forever? Can we do it with a better algo like quicksort? Can we even invent a better algo than quicksort?

There was a time insertion sort was the big thing...but as data grew, we needed to make computers search and sort things faster, so people invented the code for quicksort and the rest we use today. The tool they used? Mathematics.

I'm not trying to make things look complicated. It is what it is. Being the curious person that I am, I dig deeper into anything I'm interested in learning and that makes me understand and appreciate the very fundamentals of it. It is also through this understanding that new and better inventions can be made.

No one says you don't need math but that you cannot be average in math and do well is false.

With enough dedication and practice, you will be fine with data structures and algorithms.

Anyone doing Algo would always consider time and space analysis, Big O and all. That's not a new thing. Usually in interviews, you will be told to make your code better and more efficient after you write a brute force solution.

Now you can choose to do more research, you will find the different reasons and when to use each sorting algorithm and the benefit of each.

This is not rocket science bro! I don't have strength to argue.

Karleb:


There is something called, Stomach Driven Development. You have to eat and be okay to think of building a compiler.

A company like Google was already okay and successful as a search engine before thinking of other things.

Building a compiler is something that can be learnt by anyone interested.

I hear. Until you get into parser algorithms.

antiterrorism:
How many programmers could actually develop compilers.?

Back then in the previous century any programmer that had time because a whole lot of them where either self taught Comp scientists or Comp scientists who meet through school. Now, I no one is really interested, it's a big plus for your portfolio but OS dev is the new hobby of most serious minded programmers (by serious minded I mean purist nerds)

SegFault:

I hear. Until you get into parser algorithms.

If you can learn it, a certain dedicated Amarachi from Abakaliki can.

Karleb:


If you can learn it, a certain dedicated Amarachi from Abakaliki can.

I never learn anything oh writing the codes for the algorithms would make your source code look like Satan's incantations.

tensazangetsu20:

Mathematics can be learnt o. Don't discourage anyone. Most people have really bad mathematics backgrounds because of the rubbish teachers we had in secondary schools in Nigeria. There are a lot of online courses and sites that teach mathematics really well.

You have said it as it is, Nigerian educational system is a total waste of time and money, school operatives are the worst set of instructors/teachers on Earth.

Biafra educational system will be school of money and knowledge.

lordally:


Hahahaha actually it's not a woman thing sha it's actually an individual thing irrespective of sex. Asked that Software development can be learnt without the knowledge of maths or it can be learnt which just the little basics. When she talked about the focus on Polish and Ukraine programmers I laugh die!!! She no know say Companies dey cry say Foreign companies don almost Poach All the senior developers for Nigeria finish ....

Another clueless statement Nigerians are cashing out all the way to Nasa

chineduuf:
Bro, you are just a hater trying to glorify yourself and your self taught skills. There is a clear line between a CS graduate and a self taught programmer. If you even know what computer science encompasses, you will not make this comparison. I am CS graduate and a self taught programmer alike.

No offense, the same ignorance that drives this post is still why your so called "Self thought programmer" don't go far. If you have worked in a fortune 1000 company you must have come across the phrase "Coding Monkey". This is a term used for people who just learn coding without learning things like algorithms and the entire process of a software development lifecycle. All you know is, Create, Read, Update and Delete.
How many of your so called Self taught programmers can boldly explain how an element is searched in an array? You just know there is a function that comes with the programming language that does that. How fast or efficient it is doesn't concern you. All you know is that it works. Given a task, you can always go to stack overflow and copy a solution without analyzing resource consumption and time complexity.
Go to Google and tell them you are a self taught. Even an average CS graduate don't make it up there because there is a lot.

I can talk on this all day, but let me stop here. And by the way, they don't teach you how to code in CS, they teach you algorithms and you can learn any programming language to implement your algorithm.

The only insecure person I see here... Well.
You guys are trying though, no doubt. But c'mon, y'all should let it rest, there is a clear line. Don't compare someone who just went to get a certificate with someone who actually studied computer science.

Cheers!

bro I have seen non CS graduates get into FAANG most are self taught it only takes time and determination

Hey all. Pls is there anyone that can recover email with two step verification for a fee? If you can do pls contact me.

Karleb:


There is something called, Stomach Driven Development. You have to eat and be okay to think of building a compiler.

A company like Google was already okay and successful as a search engine before thinking of other things.

Building a compiler is something that can be learnt by anyone interested.

"Stomach Driven Development" guuuuuuy you don keeh me finish I swear you dey gimme joy

sangresan:


You're still saying the same thing...All what you referred to are mundane.

I'm definitely not catching what you're saying

Lordpeckxy:
Am a computer science graduate and I learnt the hard way my self.!

Pls can u expanciate? Thanks!

leumas91:
I can relate to this. I attempted building the sort function in JavaScript on my own. Understood the logic behind it but coding it in an efficient way? Boy oh boy my brain hear am! I had to abort mission!!

I don't think you know what understanding means. If you understood it, you should be able to write the solution, In fact you would be able to do it with different languages, not only Javascript. If you cannot break complex problems into easy explanations to yourself and others, then you don't understand it enough.

tensazangetsu20:

Mathematics can be learnt o. Don't discourage anyone. Most people have really bad mathematics backgrounds because of the rubbish teachers we had in secondary schools in Nigeria. There are a lot of online courses and sites that teach mathematics really well.

Thank you o, same problem I had. Maths teachers were terrible, I never liked maths because of this. Funny that recently I have been picking it up & loving it. I keep wondering why I hated it before, It struck me that it was the useless teachers that taught me in Federal secondary school then.

This tread is old but let me add mine.

Math is not a problem.

Remember ever math problem has a formular aka expo.

Programing is alll about determination and determination.


Build projects and you will know bwtw than the best mathemathician who have never built anything.

Pyython is lalasticas best food. its very sweet.

Live and let live.
Everybody have their place and will not be able to do everything and if they can't do everything, there is no sense in learning everything.
Some build tools, others use these tools to build other tools. Products are products of products. The type of product NEEDED would determine the type of Knowledge and expertise.
There are tools for web development and web development itself is broad. CMS platforms are part of web development and they exist because technology is all about making life simpler. They exist because they are demands for them. Nobody wants to build what nobody will use.
Look at the E-commerce industry for example. You can create an E-commerce website with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. But the end user you are creating it for wouldn't know how to manage it. CMS like WordPress and Multi-tenant platforms like Shopify were created to make the life of the user simpler.

These few things will I say in summary:

1. Products are Products of Products. Every product is a product of another product(s). We are all users of products. The machine you want to use and create your compiler or whatever is a product itself. Whatever you create is a product of that machine. It is like a chain. Whichever place you find yourself, you should appreciate those who created the product you are using to create another product. The person who create the product should not look down on the other who uses the product because at the end of the day, without the user, there is no validity and profit.
Nobody wants to create what nobody will use.
2. Technology is a tool that exists for the simplification of human lives. Technology that seeks to complicate life further is not technology at all. When technology is used to make life simpler, it is called innovation. No matter your field in science and tech, if you don't innovate, you become obsolete. So if a user needs to execute something, someone else should not discourage him from using a technology that will make his life easier and help execute that thing fast. Calculator exists to make calculations easier. You don't expect me to not use it and instead use an ancient counting method just because I want to be seen as very technical. Don't be carried away by "Technical Verbosity".
Don't hate Tech, use it.
3. Mathematics is broad and you can never learn everything because you cannot do everything. The most important thing is to learn the principles, niche down and learn what is necessary to excel in that niche. This is because different areas will need different expertise and Maths is needed in everything we do in life. The difference is that the amount and type of maths needed differs base on the task to be executed.
4. It is not about how much you know but about how much you do. We Nigerians like school more than education. It is not uncommon to hear many of us brag about our certifications. We are quick to say we have so so and so degrees. But at the end of the day, we invent and innovate little. We like titles but fail to validate them. We bring up many technical jargons and technical scenarios to intimidate and impress people. Some of us are just theoretical. I don't think there is any wisdom in knowing so much and doing little. I think this is where some Nigerian CS graduates have challenges with self taught programmers. A self taught programmer niches down early, identifies his task, understands what he needs to do, does it and moves on to the next project while a Nigerian CS graduates spends time trying to intimidate you with how broad CS is but achieve little. A NIGERIAN CS graduate does not like the fact that a self taught programmer is doing great things that took him many years to learn. A self taught programmer learnt JavaScript for example and used it to build quality projects. A NIGERIAN CS graduate graduates from school but does not use his knowledge to build anything. He tells you that JavaScript is just a tool and those using a tool are not real programmers. Ask him which tool he has created, he will begin to spit out technical jargons and scenarios.
Most Tech start-ups in Nigeria or abroad whose founders are technical are not CS graduates.
5. Focus is better than Ambiguity. Know what you want to do and focus on doing it. Some want to be programmers so that they can build start-ups or tools to the advancement of humanity and or profitability, others so that they can be more employable and others to make their work easier. Find your place and let nobody discourage you. What validates you is not knowledge obtained but knowledge put to use.
(Self taught) Programmers should also see the big picture. You won't code all your life. So at some point in your life when you are more comfortable, build something that will last and make you rich. For now you might need to learn PHP for example because it has more jobs in Nigeria. When you get the job, you can begin to think of How To use PHP or any other language as a tool to build a business that will take care of you in your old age. Have a retirement plan. Don't just learn the technical part of technology, learn the business aspect too. Don't let anybody discourage you that a language is dead.... You need a level of comfortability to build something great and if that "dying" language can be the tool to move from zero to one, please use it.
Once you know and understand the basics and principles, you can learn other things based on task.
6. A programmer cannot be a Computer Scientist but a Computer Scientist can chose to become a programmer / Software Engineer. There is more to CS than Software Engineering. It is absurd that a Computer Scientist would feel the need to compare himself, compete with or be insecure by a person who decides to niche down on one aspect of Computer Science. Even the Computer Scientist would need to niche down too if not he would not be productive.


Finally, let those who want to build technical things build and let those who want to use technical things do also. Let those who have not build any technical thing not disturb those using technical things with how they are not good technicians.
At the end of the day, it is all about productivity, innovation, scaling and the end users.

Watch Silicon Valley and Startup and learn how collaboration and not raining down on each others' parade is the way for progress and innovation.

To the above post, you spoke so much sense but some people will still come back to argue like it's a life competition. I also enjoyed reading every bit of your advice, thank you.

What mathematics are you talking? Don't discourage people please. Programming doesn't require difficult math as you are saying....

Those one man squad that *spam* the programming thread. Well, they shall now become the pharaoh we see 'no more' ... disturbing our collective peace.

zeemahn:
The ones that annoy me the most are those who like creating threads like
100 websites for learning js
200 git repositories you must look at to learn web dev
How to become a front-end dev
... ...