BKayy:

Proof/evidence?

Beer parlour gist.

The amount of ignorance in the country in near nauseating. Even among so called educated folks.

BKayy:

Proof/evidence?

Ogogoro drinkers joint is the source of his claims.

9Pluto:
Beer parlour gist.

Igboid:


Ogogoro drinkers joint is the source of his claims.

You know them very well.
They took a group picture afterwards for referencing

Ekealterego:

It shows the difference in intellect.

9cloud Here is an account, This is by Captain John Adams (1823). He had a similar account with Crow, detailed but an earlier report on his Bonny exploration.

Once again, John Adams was beclouded by the sheer number of freed ibos he may have encountered in Bonny. which underscores his bias as being inaccurate. Saying it is " VERY PROBABLE"/ LIKELY" that ibos were original inhabitants of Bonny, underscores his bias as being inaccurate and works as unreliable and easily disprovable.
A more detailed account would have been referred than mere guesses. It shows John Adams was far removed from the realities surrounding Bonny. He wasn't even sure of his own accounts.

Igboid:


Either this or the Ottam were another proto Cross River group Indigenous to the area currently called Ndokiland, and Bonny, and Opobo, that the Ndoki people assimilated when they arrived the area.

In which case, the Ottam no longer exists today, but exists in the blood of every Ndoki man.
Just like the Neanderthal never went on extinction but were rather assimilated by the homo sapiens we call Caucasians today.
So they continue to exist but inside the blood of Caucasians.

Igboid, Slayerforever.

I think I found the otam. They are now spelt as Itam. Some have merged with Ibibio, while I guess some some Igbo (or not).

Their chief diety is called, Awaitam and they celebrate Awaitam.

Many of them merge and identify as Ibibio today while maintaining the Iran identity... their land stretch towards Ndoki and even towards Bende and Aro.

I think they are dispersed. Maybe someone from there can throw more light.

oooohhhh!!! I before I forget, I remember having a discussion with someone from "Item" pronunced as "Eetaym", he said their ancestors experienced an influx of migrations and mixed with people from "mmoghu" people, refering to people from Cross-Rivers and Akwa-Ibom.

Mkpuru mmri drug addicts.

Go and claim the Ijaw areas physical.
All una lies here, does not change anything physical in d Ijaw areas.
Go and meet them physical.

OfoIgbo:


But the Pepples were of Igbo ancestry. Thankfully both Captain Crow and Dr. Baikie confirmed this fact. Of course, Crowther in his true Yoruba form, possibly chose to hide this fact. Unfortunately, neutral Europeans, in their earlier records, did make it clear that the ruling families of both New Calabar and Ubani, were of Igbo ancestry.

Another fact being that Captain Crow's memoirs' compilation really started in 1790, which is many decades before Crowther was born.

What this means is that Crow's memoirs will always be a superior source of information with regards to the true origins of Bonny

Your attempt at tribal pedanticism couldn't discredit Crowther's account.
Make i siddon dey look una.

Ekealterego:


Igboid, Slayerforever, 9cloud.

I think I found the otam. They are now spelt as Itam. Some have merged with Ibibio, while I guess some some Igbo (or not).

Their chief diety is called, Awaitam and they celebrate Awaitam.

Many of them merge and identify as Ibibio today while maintaining the Iran identity... their land stretch towards Ndoki and even towards Bende and Aro.

I think they are dispersed. Maybe someone from there can throw more light.

oooohhhh!!! I before I forget, I remember having a discussion with someone from "Item" pronunced as "Eetaym", he said their ancestors experienced an influx of migrations and mixed with people from "mmoghu" people, refering to people from Cross-Rivers and Akwa-Ibom.

Did you say Itam!

If you're talking about Itam I know one or two about Itam! Itam today is a general name by Efiks used to refer to non Ibibio tribes in Northern and Central Cross River. If Itam and Otam were the same then in finding them look no further than Northern/Central Cross River state!

One of the tribes there would be the Itam/Otam as recorded.

SlayerForever:



Did you say Itam!

If you're talking about Itam I know one or two about Itam! Itam today is a general name by Efiks used to refer to non Ibibio tribes in Northern and Central Cross River. If Itam and Otam were the same then in finding them look no further than Northern/Central Cross River state!

One of the tribes there would be the Itam/Otam as recorded.

I don't think this "itam/otam" is necessary at the moment. For now, let's round up Bonny

Ekealterego:


Igboid, Slayerforever, 9cloud.

I think I found the otam. They are now spelt as Itam. Some have merged with Ibibio, while I guess some some Igbo (or not).

Their chief diety is called, Awaitam and they celebrate Awaitam.

Many of them merge and identify as Ibibio today while maintaining the Iran identity... their land stretch towards Ndoki and even towards Bende and Aro.

I think they are dispersed. Maybe someone from there can throw more light.

oooohhhh!!! I before I forget, I remember having a discussion with someone from "Item" pronunced as "Eetaym", he said their ancestors experienced an influx of migrations and mixed with people from "mmoghu" people, refering to people from Cross-Rivers and Akwa-Ibom.

Interesting, I figured as much. Ibibios assimilated them.
Makes sense, they were Ibibiod people themselves.

Thinking of it, I wonder why Ibibios couldn't rise to the occasion and unite all Cross River Ibibiod people in Bayelsa and Rivers together with Annang and Efik into one mega ethnic group.

I guess we Ndiigbo should be grateful to Igbo slaves in Sierra Leone and to the likes of Olauda Equiano, who started our reunion,and then the likes of Zik, Osadebey and co who consolidated it.

BKayy:

I don't think this "itam/otam" is necessary at the moment. For now, let's round up Bonny

What else is there to discuss on Bonny.
It's obvious the Ijaws have no reasonable counter to offer.
We are just keeping the discussion lively in hope that one of them finally offer a worthy intellectual rebuttal.

Putindbutt:

Your attempt are tribal pedanticism couldn't discredit Crowther's account.
Make i siddon dey look una.

Did Crowther account call them Ijaws?

Ekealterego:

It shows the difference in intellect.

9cloud Here is an account, This is by Captain John Adams (1823). He had a similar account with Crow, detailed but an earlier report on his Bonny exploration.

cc Delishpot, Bomasek

GreatBoss:
Every group hate Ibo both big ones, like Ijaws and Yorubas etc, and small ones in the Niger Delta region and the Middle Belt region.All groups hate igbo.

Hey cow, STOP confusing JEALOUSY with HATRED.

Maxi112, KateyKate, Gifted21, Anibi9674, Nasoeb,

Igboid:


Did Crowther account call them Ijaws?

Impliedly, yes.

Igboid:


Interesting, I figured as much. Ibibios assimilated them.
Makes sense, they were Ibibiod people themselves.

Thinking of it, I wonder why Ibibios couldn't rise to the occasion and unite all Cross River Ibibiod people in Bayelsa and Rivers together with Annang and Efik into one mega ethnic group.

I guess we Ndiigbo should be grateful to Igbo slaves in Sierra Leone and to the likes of Olauda Equiano, who started our reunion,and then the likes of Zik, Osadebey and co who consolidated it.

Yeah! it is interesting.

Again, it helps that Igbo groups already had so many cross-cultural and cross-economic or some kind of shared influence and of course the mutual intelligibility of the language. Like the Nri priests or the Aro priestial duties all over Igbo land and beyond. The inter tradings etc. and the diasporan slaves as you mentioned.

The ibibiods should have had the opportunity because it was already recorded by John Adams (1823), Captain Crow (1831/2) and Landers, Baikie etc that these groups were called the Mokos or Mocoes.

Maybe if the fathers of the Ibibios or their ancient diaspora tried enough, we would have had a strong powerful people known as the "Mokos" or the Igbo name "Mmoghu".

Putindbutt:

Once again, John Adams was beclouded by the sheer number of freed ibos he may have encountered in Bonny. which underscores his bias as being inaccurate. Saying it is " VERY PROBABLE"/ LIKELY" that ibos were original inhabitants of Bonny, underscores his bias as being inaccurate and works as unreliable and easily disprovable.
A more detailed account would have been referred than mere guesses. It shows John Adams was far removed from the realities surrounding Bonny. He wasn't even sure of his own accounts.

All the accounts that has been posted has always been talking about the Kings and masses of Bonny natives being igbos, so much that the language in Bonny is a dialect of the igbo language.

Are you not consigned that the other party that are being claimed as indigenes/natives/owners of Bonny were not even mentioned. Not even once, so that we can start debating.

Calabar was another major slave port and I am not sure the Efiks claim they were Igbo slave merchants(visit Marina resort). Even though free igbo slaves were released there including on their islands (Duketown, Creek etc) the igbo language isn't a native language in Calabar. Bonny and Opobo are the only places on the Gulf of guinea were the spoken language is different from the acclaimed native's language(something for guiness book of world records).

If anything, history has proven the Arochukwus as the National police of the entire landscape most times using divination and posing as great dibias. They were the Chief slave merchants both at Bonny port and Calabar port. I am shocked they are not making noise about it.

I hope you saw in one of the later accounts were some presumed ijaw people were celebrating the gods of the Aros for delivery them from a pandemic.

The falsehood in trying to adulterate the demographic of the ancient kingdoms of Bonny and Opobo is the reason for this picture below.

Is anyone surprised why natives are being mandated to learn a second language as I am?

Igboid:


Interesting, I figured as much. Ibibios assimilated them.
Makes sense, they were Ibibiod people themselves.

Thinking of it, I wonder why Ibibios couldn't rise to the occasion and unite all Cross River Ibibiod people in Bayelsa and Rivers together with Annang and Efik into one mega ethnic group.

I guess we Ndiigbo should be grateful to Igbo slaves in Sierra Leone and to the likes of Olauda Equiano, who started our reunion,and then the likes of Zik, Osadebey and co who consolidated it.

Equiano famously known as Gustavus Vassa has his origin very much in contention. Y'all always pick controversial battles.

Ekealterego:

this is the experience by another explorer again. You are not far from the truth.
1. Experience from John Adam in 1823.

Interesting!!!

One thing I have come to understand is that people hardly change in their core values/worldview, probably because they're genetically wired to be like that. So, I don't think it's unique to Ijaws, because same way they've always had tendencies toward violent armed robbery/militancy and arson, is also same way Igbos have always had business acumen and superiority complex. I was shocked when when those foreign explorers emphasized that Igbos during those era believed they were of a superior ethnic stock.

Historically too, the Ibibios/Efiks aside the normal conflicts that was prevalent back then, are relatively peaceful just like they are today.

In the North, the Kanuris and Fulanis that are harrassing others all over Northern Nigeria through Boko Haram and herdsmen respectively, have always been like that too! These two groups would be terrorising all others on horsebacks. That's also what they're still doing today, albeit with modern tools like AK47 and bombs.

Also consider that in the past, while there was near anarchy in the Yorubaland and ironfist monarchy in Bini, Igboland was relatively peaceful with a decentralized authority. It was the peaceful coexistence in Igbo territories that largely resulted in huge population density.

My point is that, if you check all these factors, you will realize that every ethnic group have mostly retained their core identities over the centuries! This is the reason why I warn that anything that will make Igbos to share a smaller country with Ijaws must be stopped at all cost. Otherwise, we will end up having another South Sudan scenario in our hands.

If we must break away from Nigeria, then we must go alone or at most align with the Akwa-Cross that are peaceful in nature just like us. Otherwise, we remain in Nigeria and slug it out. I pity any group that will share country with Ijaws because it will be war without end.

"The past is key to the future"~~ George Santayana.

Putindbutt:

Impliedly, yes.

He never did.
He didn't mention Ijaw.

9Pluto:


That is what happens when someone sheepishly listens to people like Asari Dokubo(who is obsessed with his baseless fantasies) without asking questions or making your own findings.
Imagine how much more ignorance is been passed around from generation to generation.

"The best way to hide something from Black people is to hide it inside a book"-Anonymous.

About 200 years ago Crow inferred that blacks then were ignorant of the wealth they were sitting on (in a world without oil) in their home soil, 200 years later nothing much has changed except perpetuating ignorance. One Mongoloid had the effontory to come and say he had 2 UK postgraduate degrees with making any meaningful contribution. He better be wiping his behind with those papers.

You have said it all Some Igbo's rather take asari's rants as Igbo history rather than read a book about his people and their land. The painful part it that Alex is not even ready to learn or correct the misinformation he has been laced with, he rather wallow and sleep in his Ignorance. Sad reality for a Igbo son.

9Pluto:


All the accounts that has been posted has always been talking about the Kings and masses of Bonny natives being igbos, so much that the language in Bonny is a dialect of the igbo language.

Are you not consigned that the other party that are being claimed as indigenes/natives/owners of Bonny were not even mentioned. Not even once, so that we can start debating.

Calabar was another major slave port and I am not sure the Efiks claim they were Igbo slave merchants. If anything, history has proven the Arochukwus as the National police of the entire landscape most times using divination and posing as great dibias. They were the Chief slave merchants both at Bonny port and Calabar port. I am shocked they are not making noise about it.

I hope you saw in one of the later accounts were some presumed ijaw people were celebrating the gods of the Aros for delivery them from a pandemic.

Not all but your selective versions. It is rather a mere academic exercise holding tight to an account that describes the ibos as "very probable" inhabitants of Bonny.
Like I said in my earlier comment, the Aros- a mix origin of ibos and ibibios were slave raiders who had treaties with the ijos and efiks at each slave ports upon supply of ibos slaves at either ports.

Igboid:


He never did.
He didn't mention Ijaw.

Okoloama is dialectical to ijos. unless proven otherwise.

GreatBoss:


If Ijaw came with the Europeans which time we come get to use Ibo as slaves that we sell to whites, and use others in our houses.

Do you actually believe the Ijaw that had no mention in 1700s or a proper homeland , actually enslaved the Igbo ?? You can't possibly be very bright.

This is akin to saying black Americans were enslaving the red Indians in the 1300s and 1400s. It's absolutely impossible because you don't have the intelligence (Aro were reputed to be very intelligent group) nor the ideas of shrewd Aro merchant.

I have read people assign Ijaw to European ship workers used as laborers in their exploration , but I have another hypothesis; and that is that Ijaw were never ship laborers brought from Ghana and Sierra Leone , but a minute , creek dwelling primitive tribe without homeland who barely started living on land after the British arrived , and suddenly the thought of a better life than living in the disease infested creeks crept into their minds . My hypothesis also hint when Ijaw started living on the land that's when the mixing with tribes who occupied these areas of lands closest to the waters ensued. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure this out. The proof is there Okrika , Kalabari were people chiefly by Igbo race.

My hypothesis were emboldened by the fact that when the Whiteman arrived the shores of Niger Delta , it seems , the wealthy merchants and high chiefs they met on the ground none of them were Ijaw. It's either they are Igbo or a mixture of Igbo and Cross River and Ibibbio groups. Not much were said about Ijaw , in these accounts , even , until recently, Ijaw was largely unknown.

I strongly believe, however , that these towns in these coast line were originally Igbo or Akwa/Cross , who started receiving Ijaw migrants after the Whiteman arrived. These emigrants from the creek became assimilated by the earlier settlers and also brought their own influence , hence the Ijaw cultural features in these places. Subsequently , the Ijaw will come to claim these places as their land after Goodluck Jonathan became the President and his people suddenly realized they have been sleeping.

Putindbutt:

Not all but your selective version. It is rather a mere academic exercise holding tight to an account that describes the ibos as "very probable" inhabitants of Bonny. Like I said in my earlier comment, the Aros- a mix origin of ibos and ibibios were slave raiders who had treaties with the ijos and efiks at each slave ports upon supply of ibos slaves at either ports.

Really!!!Treaties with the Ijos and Efik. Kindly post supporting documents and date.

While the Efiks were historically documented, as at 1800s, what happened to the ijaws? Why were they not documented? Did the authors forget?

You didn't answer my other questions too.

What happened to the ijaw language in Bonny and Opobo? Why are their descendants trying to finish what there ancestors started?

Biafrarep:


Interesting!!!

One thing I have come to understand is that people hardly change in their core values/worldview, probably because they're genetically wired to be like that. So, I don't think it's unique to Ijaws, because same way they've always had tendencies toward violent armed robbery/militancy and arson, is also same way Igbos have always had business acumen and superiority complex. I was shocked when when those foreign explorers emphasized that Igbos during those era believed they were of a superior ethnic stock.

Historically too, the Ibibios/Efiks aside the normal conflicts that was prevalent back then, are relatively peaceful just like they are today.

In the North, the Kanuris and Fulanis that are harrassing others all over Northern Nigeria through Boko Haram and herdsmen respectively, have always been like that too! These two groups would be terrorising all others on horsebacks. That's also what they're still doing today, albeit with modern tools like AK47 and bombs.

Also consider that in the past, while there was near anarchy in the Yorubaland and ironfist monarchy in Bini, Igboland was relatively peaceful with a decentralized authority. It was the peaceful coexistence in Igbo territories that largely resulted in huge population density.

My point is that, if you check all these factors, you will realize that every ethnic group have mostly retained their core identities over the centuries! This is the reason why I warn that anything that will make Igbos to share a smaller country with Ijaws must be stopped at all cost. Otherwise, we will end up having another South Sudan scenario in our hands.

If we must break away from Nigeria, then we must go alone or at most align with the Akwa-Cross that are peaceful in nature just like us. Otherwise, we remain in Nigeria and slug it out. I pity any group that will share country with Ijaws because it will be war without end.

"The past is key to the future"~~ George Santayana.

You are not far from the truth. One of those explorers in the 1800, mentioned how "Fulata" people (Fulani) were lying to ambush people around today's Benue or around Kwara or Kogi. I was like wow, just like today.
Concentrating on Igbo, these accounts by Beale Horton (1868) could summerise some of the Igbo character (either positive or negative).
It states that they could copy anything and reproduce it immediately.

it states that they were very competitive.

The fonts are small, but I hope you can see it.

Putindbutt:

Once again, John Adams was beclouded by the sheer number of freed ibos he may have encountered in Bonny. which underscores his bias as being inaccurate. Saying it is " VERY PROBABLE"/ LIKELY" that ibos were original inhabitants of Bonny, underscores his bias as being inaccurate and works as unreliable and easily disprovable.
A more detailed account would have been referred than mere guesses. It shows John Adams was far removed from the realities surrounding Bonny. He wasn't even sure of his own accounts.

Away from the historical accounts being thrown about , here; I have a direct question and information to tender to you.

If the white man arrived and found most households to be Igbo speaking and cultured people why would he write otherwise ??

Remember , some of these explorers are seasoned anthropologists with decades of experience doing anthropology work in all parts of Africa. These data gathering was going on when our forefathers have not being corrupted and Igbo was not a unified race, but went by the name of their towns or clan.

9Pluto:


Really!!!Treaties with the Ijos and Efik. Kindly post supporting documents and date.

While the Efiks we historically documented, as at 1800s, what happened to the ijaws? Why were they not documented? Did the authors forget?

You didn't answer my other questions too.

What happened to the ijaw language in Bonny and Opobo? Why are their descendants trying to finish what there ancestors started?

Brother, there was no treaty with Ijaw because they were not even on the scene. I have learned a lot , today.

Biafrarep:


Interesting!!!

One thing I have come to understand is that people hardly change in their core values/worldview, probably because they're genetically wired to be like that. So, I don't think it's unique to Ijaws, because same way they've always had tendencies toward violent armed robbery/militancy and arson, is also same way Igbos have always had business acumen and superiority complex. I was shocked when when those foreign explorers emphasized that Igbos during those era believed they were of a superior ethnic stock.

Historically too, the Ibibios/Efiks aside the normal conflicts that was prevalent back then, are relatively peaceful just like they are today.

In the North, the Kanuris and Fulanis that are harrassing others all over Northern Nigeria through Boko Haram and herdsmen respectively, have always been like that too! These two groups would be terrorising all others on horsebacks. That's also what they're still doing today, albeit with modern tools like AK47 and bombs.

Also consider that in the past, while there was near anarchy in the Yorubaland and ironfist monarchy in Bini, Igboland was relatively peaceful with a decentralized authority. It was the peaceful coexistence in Igbo territories that largely resulted in huge population density.

My point is that, if you check all these factors, you will realize that every ethnic group have mostly retained their core identities over the centuries! This is the reason why I warn that anything that will make Igbos to share a smaller country with Ijaws must be stopped at all cost. Otherwise, we will end up having another South Sudan scenario in our hands.

If we must break away from Nigeria, then we must go alone or at most align with the Akwa-Cross that are peaceful in nature just like us. Otherwise, we remain in Nigeria and slug it out. I pity any group that will share country with Ijaws because it will be war without end.

"The past is key to the future"~~ George Santayana.

What you said here is one of the most important point on this topic. Every Igbo person here needs to read this and internalize it. There is a great lesson here.

Putindbutt:

Equiano famously known as Gustavus Vassa has his origin very much in contention. Y'all always pick controversial battles.

He was an Ijaw man.

GreatBoss:


The map the Aminadokiari (Ndoki) leaders brought to the Ijaw Republic Liberation Movement Militant Forces.

Anywhere that bears Igbo name will remain in Igboland. Any of the Ndoki elders betraying Ndigbo, after collecting money from Ijaw landgrabbing organisations, will be exiled to Gbatamatu, at the appointed time