Steep:
yeap being a firstborn in some instances is not about age but it is really about choice, this is where Jehovah witness miss it, they think Jesus being called first born means he was first created.

“...The beginning of God’s creation”—Revelation 3:14 RSV
The statement above was made about Jesus. What do you think about that ?

DappaD:


“...The beginning of God’s creation”—Revelation 3:14 RSV
The statement above was made about Jesus. What do you think about that ?

The statement means Jesus is both the originator and ruler of God's creation.

Steep:

The statement means Jesus is both the originator and ruler of God's creation.

Okay so let’s correlate your surmise with this statement at Genesis 49:3
“Reuʹben, you are my firstborn, my vigor and the beginning of my procreative power, the excellence of dignity and the excellence of strength.”

You’re saying that Reuben was the “originator and ruler” of Jacob’s power/strength or can we agree that he was the firstborn of all of Jacob’s children ?

DappaD:


Okay so let’s correlate your surmise with this statement at Genesis 49:3
“Reuʹben, you are my firstborn, my vigor and the beginning of my procreative power, the excellence of dignity and the excellence of strength.”

You’re saying that Reuben was the “originator and ruler” of Jacob’s power/strength or can we agree that he was the firstborn of all of Jacob’s children ?

Not the same with Revelation 3 vv 14,
The word arche gives room for many meanings which include source, ruler, first part of creation etc

Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

I will say all three definition of arche, which are
1. Source
2. Ruler
3. First part of creation

are all true, how?

1.John 1 vv3 state that all things were created through christ making him the source

2 He is the ruler of God's creation as the son of God

3 is the first part of God's creation, because the plan of christ becoming the wisdom of God was conceived before the heavens and earth were created.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Steep:

Not the same with Revelation 3 vv 14,
The word arche gives room for many meanings which include source, ruler, first part of creation etc
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
I will say all three definition of arche, which are
1. Source
2. Ruler
3. First part of creation
are all true, how?
1.John 1 vv3 state that all things were created through christ making him the source
2 He is the ruler of God's creation as the son of God
3 is the first part of God's creation, because the plan of christ becoming the wisdom of God was conceived before the heavens and earth were created.
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

I’m glad you decided to go the way of the Greek etymology. Well, the Greek word ἀρχή (arche) only correlates with the statement in highlight. Christ is not the source of creation. You know why ? Because the Bible never says so. Instead check out what 1Corinthians 8:6 has to say about this. Then distinguish between who is the source of creation is, and who the agency/link through which creation came to be. They’re not the same thing.

1Corinthians 8:6 NIV
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

What do you understand by this scripture with respect to what I said earlier ? Especially concerning the words ‘from’ and ‘through’ ?

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Wow. This scripture even buttresses the point I was making. So you agree that Jesus was created by another “LORD” in Proverbs 8:22 ?

DappaD:


I’m glad you decided to go the way of the Greek etymology. Well, the Greek word ἀρχή (arche) only correlates with the statement in highlight. Christ is not the source of creation. You know why ? Because the Bible never says so. Instead check out what 1Corinthians 8:6 has to say about this. Then distinguish between who is the source of creation is, and who the agency/link through which creation came to be. They’re not the same thing.

1Corinthians 8:6 NIV
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

If all things came through christ that makes christ the source of creation. The verse you just quoted means both christ and the father are the source of creation. That means both christ and the father are not created.

What do you understand by this scripture with respect to what I said earlier ? Especially concerning the words ‘from’ and ‘through’ ?

All things came from the father meanin he ordained those things to be bit those things came through christ agency meaning both the father and the Son are the source of creation but in different roles.

. This scripture even buttresses the point I was making. So you agree that Jesus was created by another “LORD” in Proverbs 8:22 ?

christ himself was not created but he became part of the creation when he took the human nature.
Christ is regarded as the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Proverb 8 vv 22 said God possessed wisdom in the beginning of his way,

Notice that "the way of God is differentiated from his works.
The way of God are his plans, the establishment of wisdom was the first thing.

If christ is the wisdom of God then the predestination of christ was the first thing God plan, because of this Jesus can be called the beginning of God the creation of God because his ordination took place before the creation, mind you the fulfillment of it only took place when the creation began and at the right time.

Jesus being the beginning of God's creation does not mean his person had a beginning.

DappaD:


I’m glad you decided to go the way of the Greek etymology. Well, the Greek word ἀρχή (arche) only correlates with the statement in highlight. Christ is not the source of creation. You know why ? Because the Bible never says so. Instead check out what 1Corinthians 8:6 has to say about this. Then distinguish between who is the source of creation is, and who the agency/link through which creation came to be. They’re not the same thing.

1Corinthians 8:6 NIV
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

What do you understand by this scripture with respect to what I said earlier ? Especially concerning the words ‘from’ and ‘through’ ?



Wow. This scripture even buttresses the point I was making. So you agree that Jesus was created by another “LORD” in Proverbs 8:22 ?

Is this Dave?

Steep:

Not the same with Revelation 3 vv 14,
The word arche gives room for many meanings which include source, ruler, first part of creation etc

Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

Did the Greeks say the usage of arché is "rule", "magistrate", "rulers"?
Definitely not !
Arché means "beginning" , we no go add medemede or pepper soup spice alien to the Greek scriptures.

Steep:


I will say all three definition of arche, which are
1.Source (of creation which God created)
2. Ruler (of creation which God created)
3.First part of creation which God created

are all true, how?

Mark 13:19
"The beginning of creation which God created"

Oga, substitute "the beginning " from Mark 13:19 and place :
1. Source
2. Ruler
3. First part of creation."

My question for you:
Which of 1,2 or 3 is in concord with Mark 13:19?
"The beginning of creation" is the same word at Mark 13:19 & Revelation 3:14, it's meaning doesn't change.

"The beginning of creation which God created" @ Mark 13:19.
Did the same God created "the beginning of creation" @ Revelation 3:14?
Yes !
Matthew 11:25, Jesus says Yes!
1 Corinthians 8:6, God created all things".
Paul says Yes!

Steep:


1.John 1 vv3 state that all things were created through christ making him the source

Definitely not !
1 Corinthians 8:6, did Paul identify Jesus as the Creator?
Never !
Colossians 1:15-16 & Ephesians 3:14-15, did Paul identify Jesus as the Creator?
Never !
John 1:3, did John identify Jesus as the Creator?
Definitely not !
Colossians 1:15-16, 1 Corinthians 8:5, Jesus is an Agency not the Creator.

Steep:


2 He is the ruler of God's creation as the son of God (at Revelation 3:14).

If you stick with "ruler of creation" as accurate.
Therefore, you MUST agree that @ Rev 3:14 , John & Paul agreed at 1 Corinthians 11:3.
Revelation 3:14 = 1 Corinthians 11:3
Jesus is his Father's creature.

Steep:


3 is the first part of God's creation, because the plan of christ becoming the wisdom of God was conceived before the heavens and earth were created.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[/b]

Hebrew qanah/CREATE is the same word meaning the same thing @ Proverbs 8:22, Genesis14:19,22 & Psalms 113:13-15, (confirmed by your fellow Trinitarian devotees in the screenshot).
Trinitarians change "CREATE" to 'Possess' to hide the Bible truth.
Final summary:
Jesus Christ is a Creature of his God & Father.

Steep:

The statement means Jesus is both the originator and ruler of God's creation.

Mark 13:19
"The beginning of creation which God created"

"The "originator" of creation which God created", Colossians 1:15

The "ruler" of creation which God created",1 Corinthians 11:3. .
God is the Head of Jesus, Jesus is the Head of man & woman.

Trinity fall yakata.

Steep:
If all things came through christ that makes christ the source of creation. The verse you just quoted means both christ and the father are the source of creation. That means both christ and the father are not created.

All things came from the father meanin he ordained those things to be but those things came through christ agency meaning both the father and the Son are the source of creation but in different roles.

"If all things came through Christ.... "
Did the Father come through Christ?


Romans 11:34-36 & 1 Corinthians 8:6 ,ALL THINGS Came THROUGH the Father."

Jesus Christ came through his Father.

Ephesians 3:14-15, Oga name the Creature that doesn't owe it's name to the Father