Near1:


Of course you are; you mentioned DNA.



Good because you clearly don't know your ass from third-base about it.



Yes, and I've pointed out several examples, to which you run to a dictionary and erroneously claim my examples don't fit. Now you wish to mention DNA as intelligent design but refuse to consider any other possible explanation. I don't care for dishonest conversation.



No. I also would not assume that an invisible, all-knowing, all-powerful, outside-the-universe psychopath wrote it there. You know what I'd do? I'd do what you and so many other believers seem incapable of doing; I'd say "I don't know how that got there" and start looking into it. Quit flogging Paley's tired old talking-point. If you cannot see systematic complexity without seeing god, I'd suggest you pull your head out of your ass and look around.



How very apt.

It's a stupid question that demonstrates how afraid of uncertainty you are.

DNA is now evolution!?

You must have mixed me up with someone as I did not use your examples for anything nor did you even present any credible examples!

DNA is a library of DATA and INSTRUCTIONS for the growing, building, maintenance and sustenance of cells in an organism. It is an example of a Complex System.

The question I asked you which you've been dodging is:

Whenever you see a complex system or meaningful interaction of data and instructions, do you assume it happened by accident or that a non-intelligent source made it?

TenQ:

You can't force your definition and whims on God's nature and moreover an objective law is not binding over the giver of the law as to him, it is subjective.

If the claim of God as omnipotent is true, by your claims, he should be bound by laws He created (against His nature)!?

Sorry sir. The explanation is solid enough. A law set by a government is subjective to the government but objective to the citizens! If it is difficult for you to comprehend this, too bad as you are beyond help

I didn't say "omnipotent", ... i said "omniscient".
You can't read.
i need no help from an ignoramus.
Would you like an "eclxample" ?
LOL

So far you've been proven ignorant
on the science,
on the morality,
on the theology,
on the philosophy.

Why are you here making a fool of yourself ?

your FIRST job here is to demonstrate there are gods, any gods.
Get you're sorry ass busy and show us there are any gods.
Any at all.
So far , you're batting ZERO.

Is your faith in god based on misunderstanding morality and rejecting biology, TenQ?

Yes? Then lol

No? Then why would the answers to any moral or biological questions be relevant?

You're not just wasting other peoples time, you're wasting your own. Or, if you prefer, you're wasting the time god gave us all.

What do you think he thinks about that?

Yes, logic is very simple..and you've routinely contradicted your own

Even gone sofar as to cover god with your own logical missteps

Is that a problem for you, or for a god?

TenQ:

Thanks for the observation: corrected!

Logic is very simple
If A>B (Postulate 1)
and
If B>C (Postulate 2)
THEN
A>C (Conclusion)

Does your god hand craft every single snowflake..or is there something..even in your own beliefs..between intelligently created, and random?


I only ask because..whenever I see something that is meaningfully complex but not man made..I think it's that thing in the middle.


One of the many instances of things which were not created by any intelligent being, but also not random.

If I saw my name written in the sand in the beach..I;d assume some guy named DJ wrote his name in the sand in the beach before I got there.


Crazy I know! It must be an all powerful magician what scribbled two letters in the sand..obviously

Not waterbugs. Not Some Guy, not me in a weird instance of forgetting things or just flat out seeing things..even though we do that, alot....


Nope. The omnipresent master of the universe. Must be that, because the only other thing it could be..is Random™....and it just can't be random.........

TenQ:

DNA is now evolution!?

You must have mixed me up with someone as I did not use your examples for anything nor did you even present any credible examples!

DNA is a library of DATA and INSTRUCTIONS for the growing, building, maintenance and sustenance of cells in an organism. It is an example of a Complex System.

The question I asked you which you've been dodging is:

Whenever you see a complex system or meaningful interaction of data and instructions, do you assume it happened by accident or that a non-intelligent source made it?

Near1:


The water is made of regularly interacting molecules. The crystal developing, ditto. This is you trying to deploy semantics to obscure your absolute lack of evidence for your deity. This is a particularly inane reply.

You fall my hands again big time.

Water molecules now a system!?

Do you understand what you are even writing?

Let me ask you, what is the function of the water system (for every system has a purpose)?
To help you;
A House is a very SIMPLISTIC system!
It has a roof to protect against sun and rain
It has windows for visibility and ventilation .
It has doors for security
It may have specialised compartments as sleeping rooms, kitchen, latest rooms etc

What is the function of "water system"?

Near1:

When you're appealing to hypotheticals as "evidence" to support your claim, that pretty much tells me you do not have any real evidence. The real systems here on Earth that you claim point to your god's existence are fairly well-explained by our current knowledge without including what Occam would call your needless entity.

Please tell me you have something more thoughtful than this tripe. I'm finding this conversation tiresome, as if I got stuck back into college with someone who doesn't belong there.

You've said nothing here!

You are a system consisting of eyes for navigation, limbs for mobility, nostrils for perception of smell, ears for hearing etc. A wonder of God.

A bacteria is a system consisting of every part to inject food, to reproduce, to move, irritability, respiration, excretion etc

It still doesn't dawn on you that these are SYSTEMS and as such could not be a product of random collection of atoms!?

SMH!
I'm so so sorry for you!

1000WaysToLive:
Does your god hand craft every single snowflake..or is there something..even in your own beliefs..between intelligently cr DEATHeated, and random?


I only ask because..whenever I see something that is meaningfully complex but not man made..I think it's that thing in the middle.


One of the many instances of things which were not created by any intelligent being, but also not random.

If I saw my name written in the sand in the beach..I;d assume some guy named DJ wrote his name in the sand in the beach before I got there.


Crazy I know! It must be an all powerful magician what scribbled two letters in the sand..obviously

Not waterbugs. Not Some Guy, not me in a weird instance of forgetting things or just flat out seeing things..even though we do that, alot....


Nope. The omnipresent master of the universe. Must be that, because the only other thing it could be..is Random™....and it just can't be random.........

You still don't get itnas you are so naive. Ice crystals not water I presume you mean to say is NOT a system. If it is what are the functionalities?

Why didn't you respond to my questions?
When you see a house, you don't assume it built itself
When you see a helicopter, you don't assume metals just randomly glued themselves together
When you see a computer, you doesn't ever thing itself assembled itself.

All these are systems any one can say the function of their components.

1000WaysToLive:
Yes, logic is very simple..and you've routinely contradicted your own

Even gone sofar as to cover god with your own logical missteps

Is that a problem for you, or for a god?

How?

1000WaysToLive:
Is your faith in god based on misunderstanding morality and rejecting biology, TenQ?

Yes? Then lol

No? Then why would the answers to any moral or biological questions be relevant?

You're not just wasting other peoples time, you're wasting your own. Or, if you prefer, you're wasting the time god gave us all.

What do you think he thinks about that?

DNA is a highly complex system and Library. A collection of Data , Information and Instructions that guides every cell in an organism. Within this highly complex DNA is the capacity evolve (for use of better words)

Have you ever fathomed that such a complex system existing a product of random assembly of atoms?

midnight378:


I didn't say "omnipotent", ... i said "omniscient".
You can't read.
i need no help from an ignoramus.
Would you like an "eclxample" ?
LOL

So far you've been proven ignorant
on the science,
on the morality,
on the theology,
on the philosophy.

Why are you here making a fool of yourself ?

your FIRST job here is to demonstrate there are gods, any gods.
Get you're sorry ass busy and show us there are any gods.
Any at all.
So far , you're batting ZERO.

Most Atheists like you are powered by the same unclean spirit, so your uncouth nature is not surprising.

See how he is changing goalpost all about ; the trashing of a drowning man.

I can see you've demonstrated mastery and brilliance in in the sciences, morality, theology and
on philosophy.
It's so evident: I wish to come and learn from you!

LOL!!

1000WaysToLive:
No, the question of moral objectivity doesn't have anything to do with subjective plans or designs or how any subject..including gods... want things to go.

Crazy ex-girlfriends who stalk or slash tires also have plans, also have designs, also want things to go a certain way.

The question of moral objectivity is whether or not there's something about an act or deed, the object..rather than the person doing it or watching it, the subject, that is wrong as a matter of fact, not wrong as a matter of being counter to their opinions or wishes.

Do you believe that there's really something wrong with things like incest or rape or murder..or are these things only bad insomuch as god has other plans?


If an ideology proposing a subjective moral code is a bad thing, and that's one of the problems with atheism as you see it, and as you've said in thread...then wouldn't this also mean that it's a problem with your god beliefs, which you have categorized as subjective.... as well?

As far as missed oppurtunities..and taking the time to familiarize yourself with moral objectivity....a gods moral statement could be objective insomuch as it purports to report a fact, and accurately reports that fact. If a god says that something is A Bad Thing™, but what it means is that this thing is not according their silly plan..the issuer has misreported a purported fact.


This is all a fancy way of saying..in short..that god bullshitted you...according to you.


That's why I keep trying to point you to the offramp. I'm fairly certain you don't want to suggest or imply that your own god is a shameless lying piece of shit whose only metrics for proper snd improper acts are base self interest and the minutiae of some opaque and personal plan.


In between moments of claiming that gods morality is subjective, and that god-subjective is man-objective, you also babble about god having REASONS, and those REASONS being beneficial to us somehow..etc.

Well..that's not subjectivity. That's objective utilitarianism.


Of course, god can't actually change the outcomes of objective utilitarianism at a whim....so that's a problem for some of the other things you've been calling gods subjectivity.

Does the maker of an internal combustion engine reserve the right to specify the fuel that it should be powered with?

chryssanthe:


You DO realize that DNA is not a code, don't you? You are trying to use an analogy in an attempt to prove something. You cannot prove something using an analogy. It doesn't work that way.
To take it a step further, you are trying to use philosophy as a premise for your assertions instead of science. That way you don't have to get all tangled up explaining molecular science. Go read a science book. DNA are chemicals and no more a code than fire and gasoline are codes.

Scientists have succeeded having antique RNA form spontaneously from the known chemicals and environment that were present in early earth.
It happened naturally and spontaneously. No god was necessary. Simple antique RNA is an ancient precurser to DNA.

Does the DNA contain data?
Does the DNA contain information?
Does the DNA contain instructions?

If you don't understand the above, where does the information regarding the color of your eyes, hair type and color, etc located. In your spleen!? LOL!

Even though no where have I said the DNA is a code in this thread, but it is.

Intact if you know anything about OOP in computer science you will understand why it is a strong PARALLEL between computer code and the DNA.

FemiAjani:


You are using the Teleological Argument which was variously articulated by the writers of the psalms, St. Paul, William Paley in his book Natural Theology, and many others. The argument states that just as we can tell that a watch we find on the beach was designed, so we also can tell the world was designed by an Intelligent Designer. We can also tell from the design what that Creator’s intentions for us are. There are all sorts of problems with such an argument from a modern perspective. If we say we can recognize design in the watch on the beach, why not in the beach itself? With a Creator God, everything must be designed. Which leads to the second problem: the examples of such design are radically cherry-picked, especially to show the alleged Creator in a positive light. The same Creator who supposedly designed birds and eyeballs also designed parasites and diseases. As naturalist Sir David Attenborough pointed out, just because there are pretty things like hummingbirds and butterflies doesn’t mean there is a Creator God: "You've also got to think of a little boy sitting on a river bank, like here in West Africa, that’s got a little worm, a living organism, in his eye and boring through the eyeball and slowly turning him blind. The Creator God that you believe in, presumably, also made that little worm."

Further, we now know from science how apparent design in the cosmos and in biological life was either self-organized by the laws of nature or evolved by natural selection, neither of which require an Intelligent Designer. The fallback argument is that such laws and evolution were themselves the creations of a Creator who fine-tuned the universe. However, this begs the question of why such a Creator was required for a creation which doesn’t reflect his assumed attributes. The idea of God’s special creation takes a beating when we understand that over 90% of all species that ever lived on earth have gone extinct in five major extinctions and many more minor ones. As Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote, "If there is a designer, he must take credit for the flaws in his creation. Flaws in the creation directly reflect flaws in the creator. If there is a flaw in the creator then he cannot be all powerful."

All you needed to do was to falsify my argument and not resort to whether it is an ATHEISTIC or theological argument.

When you see a Complex System carrying data and instructions, would you assume it randomly and spontaneously came to existence OR THAT an intelligent being must have made it?

It is a simple Question!

FemiAjani post=116832760:

I would assume it was another human, not God. A cause should be both sufficient and necessary. God, as an explanation, is sufficient for almost anything, but it really isn't necessary. If you had read more about science, you would have heard about self-organization as a separate explanation from evolution. Evolution and self-organization are much more likely explanations for apparent design than God. God is a highly uneconomical explanation for anything, since it posits a whole other, spiritual dimension.

Why wouldn't you think a Crab or Fish did the writing?
Why would you ascribe such writings to be from a highly intelligent being (human) and not a dog?

The ball in your court!

midnight378:


Governments are composed (according to you) of people with consciences . what the hell happened ?
you failed to address the other groups mentioned.

Since you have a conscience, has your conscience EVER forced you to do anything against your FREEWILL?

Next time, Analyse your thoughts before posting!

midnight378:

Yes
Ant hills, bee hives , the Federal Government.

Ands are NOT intelligent!
Bees are NOT intelligent !!
Governments are not intelligent!!!

Which school did you attend please, maybe I should transfer my studentship. They are doing a good job with you.

Khai:
Wannabe Atheist reasoning at its best!

1000WaysToLive:
Crystal clear


I'm not interested in laws like that - moral or legal

And you've already explained that the assumption of such laws is unwarranted, delusional, and incorrect.

So why are you commenting on morality and the subject of subjectivity or objectivity?

When did I post this?

And you've already explained that the assumption of such laws is unwarranted, delusional, and incorrect.

Like their father, always lying!

YOU SAID: "So why are you commenting on morality and the subject of subjectivity or objectivity?"


So I should not have said anything, and let you continue to make a fool of yourself?


YOU SAID:
"When did I post this?"


It's possible that I've misunderstood you, especially since you're committed to novel uses of the terms.


I guess I could always ask again: Do you believe that gods moral code is subjective? That there's nothing really wrong with x, y, or z. That right and wrong are -whatever- god decides they are?

If so, it would be incorrect to state that something was really right or really wrong with x y or z.

If so, it would be delusional to believe as much.

Do you think that incorrect and delusional beliefs are warranted?

TenQ:

So why are you commenting on morality and the subject of subjectivity or objectivity?

When did I post this?


Like their father, always lying!

It is called "evolution" for a reason. Species "evolved" to eat or be eaten and protected themselves. Not that it happened overnight, but the idea is that small mutations/advantages matter.


Be just 1% faster and you don't get eaten. A bit of scaley shell might save your life. No real eye, but a slight perception of light means a predator. A bigger tail means a bit more escape.

It doesn't take much advantage to pass your genes on. A .001% advantage works just fine in the long run. Evolution is just a matter of small changes over time.

Consider the eye (a favorite of "intellegent design". No fish ever woke up and thought "wow, I have an eye and I can see". First, there were light-detecting cells. Then some sea-creatures had a DNA change that focussed cupped the light slightly. It went on from there.

All evolution is, is the slight advantage of minor physical variations among individuals. Most variations are not beneficial and so are not passed along to offspring. Some are neutral. A very few are beneficial and give an advantage to the offspring.


Regarding your specific question, once intelligence evolved among humans for the same advantageous reasons, group competition favored those who could gain favor with others.


This required cooperation. "Conscience" probably came from a need to understand what others were thinking and how to get along with them best. As in "if I don't steal their fruit, maybe they won't steal mine".


I'm not saying that is proven. It is just a best understanding at the moment. That can be debated. But the general idea of evolution cannot. It seems pretty solid.

TenQ:

Can you please show the Evidence to prove that conscience EVOLVED and from what?

LOL!

You may accept it as the truth. The rest of us do not. Therefore it is subjective truth: things true or false with respect to whether or not a person holds to them, not true or false with respect to whether or not they accurately report the facts they purport to report.


That's actually why I don't find your lines of questioning/argument credible.

We're all very aware of the difference...by personal experience. That you feel compelled to go out and say these things..anyway, is nothing more than a product of shamans and witchdoctors telling people who they don't respect silly things..


and you people then go out into the world to show other people who don't listen to their shamans and witchdoctors... just how little their own religious betters think of them.


It's disrespectful, and bad....objectively.

Many of your arguments are based on contemporary apologism, which is geared towards the assumption of subjective and relativistic values in it's audience. It's a cold call script.

Nothing new to see here

TenQ:

Do you need to accept anything!?
No!

As it doesn't change the truth.

@bold You can feel sorry for whomever you like, but feeling sorry for people is non-cognitive..and you're..ostensibly, having some disagreement over facts, not your feels.

TenQ:


You fall my hands again big time.

Water molecules now a system!?

Do you understand what you are even writing?

Let me ask you, what is the function of the water system (for every system has a purpose)?
To help you;
A House is a very SIMPLISTIC system!
It has a roof to protect against sun and rain
It has windows for visibility and ventilation .
It has doors for security
It may have specialised compartments as sleeping rooms, kitchen, latest rooms etc

What is the function of "water system"?


You've said nothing here!

You are a system consisting of eyes for navigation, limbs for mobility, nostrils for perception of smell, ears for hearing etc. A wonder of God.

A bacteria is a system consisting of every part to inject food, to reproduce, to move, irritability, respiration, excretion etc

It still doesn't dawn on you that these are SYSTEMS and as such could not be a product of random collection of atoms!?

SMH!
I'm so so sorry for you!

YOU SAID: "You still don't get itnas you are so naive. Ice crystals not water I presume you mean to say is NOT a system. If it is what are the functionalities?"



I'm not asking you anything about systems, I'm suggesting that there's something between intelligently designed and random..and..from this response, it looks like you're fully aware that there is.

So I don't need to argue anything. QED, your logic was hot garbage.

It's not actually the case, even according to you, that things are either intelligently created or random.


YOU SAID:
"Why don't you respond to my questions?"


Is lying wrong subjectively..or objectively? I think the better questions for you to be asking are:

A: Who told you any of this stuff you've told us, and why do they think so little of you?

B: Why did you believe them?

C: Why are you so ill-prepared for the many answers to your inane questions that you have demonstrably received?

You can't do anything about A. Other people do what they do, think of you what they do..in the end.

You can't do anything about B, it's in the past, already happened.

You could, though, do something about C. You could pay attention, you could learn. In some future conversation, you could represent your beliefs well..instead of...whatever this has been.

TenQ:

You still don't get itnas you are so naive. Ice crystals not water I presume you mean to say is NOT a system. If it is what are the functionalities?

Why didn't you respond to my questions?
When you see a house, you don't assume it built itself
When you see a helicopter, you don't assume metals just randomly glued themselves together
When you see a computer, you doesn't ever thing itself assembled itself.

All these are systems any one can say the function of their components.

Not in point of fact, and certainly not morally...lol.


He can suggest whatever he likes, and stomp his foot when people do otherwise..like inventing biofuels that work with standard combustion engines..but something tells me you want more than that, for your god?


More than a small minded engineer who could never comprehend what other and even more brilliant uses people might come up for his invention...

throwing a fit, and threatening people who won't friend him.

I'll say this, you won't listen, and your own posts will be a shitshow forever...but. You need to start over.


None of whatever you've been ingesting works.

TenQ:

Does the maker of an internal combustion engine reserve the right to specify the fuel that it should be powered with?

If you believe that dna requires a coder or programmer..you're in luck.

In a naturalistic world, the environment codes and programs dna.

In fairness..in a god-breathed world..the environment is -still- the thing that codes and programs dna...in much the same way that people use computers, in mere reality, to write code for us.

Do you think that the environment is intelligent?

Do you think that code generating computers are intelligent?

TenQ:

Does the DNA contain data?
Does the DNA contain information?
Does the DNA contain instructions?

If you don't understand the above, where does the information regarding the color of your eyes, hair type and color, etc located. In your spleen!? LOL!

Even though no where have I said the DNA is a code in this thread, but it is.

Intact if you know anything about OOP in computer science you will understand why it is a strong PARALLEL between computer code and the DNA.

Excellent, so you don't believe that processes are necessarily intelligent.

Heredity is a biological process.

Another item on the list checked off.

Do you believe in FREEWILL though?

TenQ:

Ands are NOT intelligent!
Bees are NOT intelligent !!
Governments are not intelligent!!!

Which school did you attend please, maybe I should transfer my studentship. They are doing a good job with you.

Khai:
Wannabe Atheist reasoning at its best!

Are we abandoning morality and biology for FREEWILL?

TenQ:

Since you have a conscience, has your conscience EVER forced you to do anything against your FREEWILL?

Next time, Analyse your thoughts before posting!

1000WaysToLive:

Are we abandoning morality and biology for FREEWILL?

So you have only conscience but no freewill?

1000WaysToLive:

Excellent, so you don't believe that processes are necessarily intelligent.

Heredity is a biological process.

Another item on the list checked off.

Do you believe in FREEWILL though?

Your claims again!

Ants are NOT intelligent!
Bees are NOT intelligent !!
Governments are not intelligent!!!

You truly have no shame!

1000WaysToLive:

If you believe that dna requires a coder or programmer..you're in luck.

In a naturalistic world, the environment codes and programs dna.

In fairness..in a god-breathed world..the environment is -still- the thing that codes and programs dna...in much the same way that people use computers, in mere reality, to write code for us.

Do you think that the environment is intelligent?

Do you think that code generating computers are intelligent?

So, the environment is intelligent!?

And ants and bees are not intelligent!?

SMH!!

1000WaysToLive:
Not in point of fact, and certainly not morally...lol.


He can suggest whatever he likes, and stomp his foot when people do otherwise..like inventing biofuels that work with standard combustion engines..but something tells me you want more than that, for your god?


More than a small minded engineer who could never comprehend what other and even more brilliant uses people might come up for his invention...

throwing a fit, and threatening people who won't friend him.

I'll say this, you won't listen, and your own posts will be a shitshow forever...but. You need to start over.


None of whatever you've been ingesting works.

?

Yes, those are the questions. On the one hand, you claim that complex things require a designer- an intelligence.

On the other, you claim that complex things like ant hills and bee hives -do not- require a designer, an intelligence.

Which one of those two assholes has it right?


Just as I wonder which of you two assholes that tell us gods moral code is subjective...and that tell us gods moral code is objective..has it right.

At some point, you have to pick a lane, I'm afraid.


You think one or the other contradictory thing which you've said - and I don't think there's any point in continuing until you can decide for yourself which one it is..in this, and other, contexts.


Or, I can remain silent, and allow you to continue to make a fool of yourself. Never got resolution on that one.

TenQ:

So, the environment is intelligent!?

And ants and bees are not intelligent!?

SMH!!

TenQ:

So, the environment is intelligent!?

And ants and bees are not intelligent!?

SMH!!

Environmental pressure determines which individual species will succeed and which will not; which will reproduce and which will not and which will survive in a given envrionment and which will die out. As much as 99.9% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet have died out. That's 99.9 PERCENT !!!

The reason all those species do not exist anymore is because the environment changed drastically

The envirionment is not intelligent in and of itself, you fucking idiot.

Jeeeeez! Go read a science book!

chryssanthe:


Environmental pressure determines which individual species will succeed and which will not; which will reproduce and which will not and which will survive in a given envrionment and which will die out. As much as 99.9% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet have died out. That's 99.9 PERCENT !!!

The reason all those species do not exist anymore is because the environment changed drastically

The envirionment is not intelligent in and of itself, you fucking idiot.

Jeeeeez! Go read a science book!

You should have directed your venom to your fellow atheist who made the claims!

See what Atheism is morphing you into in RED!