₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
1. God's judgment is a personal choice for me to make. What sort of bullsheet claim is that? You brought up the conscience as a standard where God is concerned yet you cannot answer simple questions as to when exactly it was made such.

2. These ramblings of yours make no sense. What has my conscience to do with God and His Heaven when I can switch the channels on my conscience whenever I choose - I can decide tomorrow that fking my neighbor's wife is my right and not evil and I will no longer experience guilt when I do so - meaning it is not a reliable standard as far as God is concerned?

Well like I said it's your choice...

Go ahead and fk her...

The only thing we own are the choices we make, every other thing belong to God..

sonmvayina:
Well like I said it's your choice...Go ahead and fk her...The only thing we own are the choices we make, every other thing belong to God..

Stop linking God to what is obviously born of your personal delusions abeg!

Kobojunkie:
Again.... Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience? undecided
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

Stop submitting the musings of your mind as if facts... present evidence for your claims.

Are you dull or blind..?

Or both.

Every human has got a conscience, it is part of what makes us human being.

Before the colonial masters and enslavers gave you the bible our ancestors knew right from wrong....it is embedded in all human...

Grow up....please, you are just too dull..

Kobojunkie:
Stop linking God to what is obviously born of your personal delusions abeg!

You are too dull...

Sorry pick somebody with your mentally..I am way above this ramblings..

sonmvayina:
Are you dull or blind..? Or both. Every human has got a conscience, it is part of what makes us human being. Before the colonial masters and enslavers gave you the bible our ancestors knew right from wrong....it is embedded in all human...Grow up....please, you are just too dull..

Look who's talking!

So because every human has a conscience then means the conscience is the way to God? Such ridiculous nonsense!

Kobojunkie:
Look who's talking!

So because every human has a conscience then means the conscience is the way to God? Such ridiculous nonsense!

Our conscience is God's signature..

sonmvayina:
Our conscience is God's signature..

Where did God state this?

Kobojunkie:
Where did God state this?

You are just a slowpoke...

No insult intended..

sonmvayina:
You are just a slowpoke...
No insult intended..

You are the slowpoke thinking you can easily pass off what are your brain farts as God's word. What an eejit!

Abdulgaffar22:
Bible recorded that the number of Jesus apostles was somehow fixed to be twelve (Matthew 10:2-7, 19:28, Revelation 21:14). Therefore, when Judas Iscariot fell out and there was need for replacement and restoration of original twelve, then one would expect the divine plan to unfold in such a way that original apostles would be pre-informed by Jesus (pbuh) to exercise patience and wait till someone like Paul repents. But instead of waiting for Paul, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas under the act of divine guidance (Acts 1:20-26). This proves again that apostleship of Paul was not even recognized in heaven. Yet Paul repeatedly called himself an apostle of true Jesus Christ at the beginning of most of his letters.

And you didn't know that at the time Matthias was chosen, Paul was still Saul!?

You fall my hand as half knowledge is a disease!

Kobojunkie:
You are the slowpoke thinking you can easily pass off what are your brain farts as God's word. What an eejit!

You know why you are dull?

You never learn anything..

Because you don't study..
I will let you wallow in your ignorance...

@luluku69
I never said they won't believe jesus if he appear to them that he had appeared to paul.
Re-read what i said..... I said they might nt want to accept paul in the first place probably because of what jesus taught them that they shouldn't believe anybody coming to them in his name.... But barnabas had to intervene through the leading of the holy spirit before they could accept him because he (paul) was nt false.
And concerning ur last statement "isaiah 55:8" our ways and thought differs from God ways and thought.
A man who is nt of the spirit can't understand the things of the spirit and it sound foolish to them "1 corinthians 2:14".
@luluku69

Kobojunkie:
As is your pattern, you are already rushing to change the subject rather than attempt the questions which were posed so we can continue to discuss the matter at hand.

When you are ready to re-engage the issue of the keys to heaven, let me know.

Which pattern are you talking about, what question did you put forth?

If you want to pose any question, why not open a Thread and pose your question and itemised it as always and let people give their opinion?

What I did before you shuk mouth was my observation based on what Jesus said in the Bible and you are the one coming with your usual itemization of your questions.

I have read your post and opinion here for at least 2-3years, Baba you are one deluded person. My trying to engage you if is simply to see if you can be weaned from your delusions.

Someone asked above if you are both dull and blind, I will add that you are deaf too.

Your case is beyond redemption when you can open your mouth and say fking your neighbor wife can be withing your right if you have a conscience switch.

Lukuluku69:
Which pattern are you talking about, what question did you put forth?

If you want to pose any question, why not open a Thread and pose your question and itemised it as always and let people give their opinion?

What I did before you shuk mouth was my observation based on what Jesus said in the Bible and you are the one coming with your usual itemization of your questions.

I have read your post and opinion here for at least 2-3years, Baba you are one deluded person. My trying to engage you if is simply to see if you can be weaned from your delusions.

Someone asked above if you are both dull and blind, I will add that you are deaf too.

Your case is beyond redemption when you can open your mouth and say fking your neighbor wife can be withing your right if you have a conscience switch.

Was that why you didn't respond to my post. I copied you didn't I?

https://www.nairaland.com/7436930/plain-idolatry-muslims-islam#118526411

Have I spoken UNTRUTHS about Islam?

TenQ:
Muslims think that because Islam is based on lies and fabrications, Christianity is like that too. Modern day Muslims are looking for ANYTHING they think they can find to discredit the Bible and Salvation in the Eternal Messiah.


TESTIMONIES FROM THE BIBLE
1. Unlike a so-called prophet who alone saw Jubril squeeze him three times and speak to him like a bell, Paul wasn't Evidenced Alone to his conversion:
Acts 9:10-11:
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays,"

Acts 9:15:
"But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Paul's eyes were opened (for he was blind) by one of the disciples of Christ.

Acts 22:12-13:
"And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelled there, Came to me, and stood, and said to me, Brother Saul, receive your sight. And the same hour I looked up on him."
Abdulgaffar22 is saying that the "his Messanger of Satan" Paul was healed of blindness by the power of Christ.

This is an INDEPENDENT confirmation outside Paul for his conversion.

2. Unlike a so-called prophet who was given ZERO miracles (as other messangers of God) Just as Other Apostles, Paul was AUTHENTICATED and BACKED UP by Christ with power to Heal, Cast out demons and Miracles.

Acts 13:9-12:
"Then Saul, (who also is called Paul, ) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is on you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord."

Acts 19:11-13,15-17:
"And God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took on them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the LORD Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. … And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; [/b]and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."


[b]3. Paul was with the Other Apostles of Christ, he was COMMISSIONED by the Apostles and he even at a time rebuked Peter for not doing like Christ as he feared the Jews.

Acts 15:2:
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question."

Acts 15:22:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brothers:"

Gal 2:11-12:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."


4. This same Paul was imprisoned several times and finally killed by the Romans for Preaching Christ!


5. The message of Paul was not different from that of the other Apostles:
Acts 26:22-23:
"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue to this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles."


5. Peter Authenticated the Writings of Paul:

2Pet 3:15:
"And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;"


TESTIMONY FROM ISLAMIC SOURCES
Abdulgaffar22 is also basking under the failed euphoria that Christians would never read their hadiths and Tafsirs about this Paul they hate so much. What do the earlier respected Muslims view of this Paul.

Let's hear what they've said.

The basis is Qur'an 36:13-29 where Allah himself speaking about two and a third Messanger that he sent to the companions of a city.

1. According to Bishr b. Mu‘adh- Yazid b. Zuray‘- Sa‘id- Qatadah regarding the following passage: "Spin a parable for them- the inhabitants of the city, when the messengers came to it. When We sent them to men, they declared them liars; so We sent a third as reinforcement. They said, ‘We are assuredly messengers unto you.’" It was mentioned to us that Jesus, the son of Mary, sent two of the apostles to Antioch, a Roman city; but they were declared liars , so he sent a third as reinforcement. They said, "We are assuredly messengers," etc. (The History of Al-Tabari, Volume IV, The Ancient Kingdoms)

Although Ibn Kathir rejects the interpretation that the envoys were the Apostles of Christ, his comments are interesting nonetheless:

<so We reinforced them with a third> means, ‘We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.’ Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu’ayb Al-Jaba’i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham’un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch ...

For those who don't know BULUS is the Arabic form for Paul.

2. Al-Suyuti, another renowned exegete, concurs with the Salaf that the three messengers mentioned in S. 36:13-29 were Peter, John and Paul:

Verses 14-27

Narrated Ibn S'âd and Ibn Asakir by the authority of Abi Saleh and Ibn Abbas who said:

There was a one thousand and nine hundred years gap between the time of Moses the son of Imran and Jesus. During which time one thousand prophets were sent to the people of Israel. And there was five hundred and sixty nine years gap between the birth of Jesus and the time of Muhammad. During the first part of this gap, three prophets were sent. The third one of these prophets WAS SIMON.

Narrated Ibn Abi Hatim by the authority of Shuwaib Al Jabâ'ayee who said: The names of the first two messengers were Simon and John. And the name of the third one was Paul.

Narrated Ibn al-Monthere from Saed bin Jubayr who said: The name of the third messenger was Paul.

We might want to ask Muslims how the name of Paul entered their Tafsirs?
https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christs_apostles.htm


When ancient old great men of Islam have spoken, modern day baby Muslims begin to speak lies again.

When we ask Muslims questions, they pretend they never saw it.
Repent, turn to the Lord JESUS Christ and be saved.


Your prophet coveted and took the wife of his own adopted son AND then because people were complaining of this EVIL, he ABROGATED Adoption and your God (Allah authorized this great SIN). I pity Zaid, he got no option if he wants to stay alive.

I asked you Muslims important Questions and you ignored it because you are EMBARRASSED by your prophet.

Please, before responding to this, answer this Question:
THE QUESTION:
It is understandable if Allah Deceived the Jews and the Romans. Can you as Muslims please explain the logical reason why Allah Deceived ALSO Mary the Mother of Jesus, all Jesus Disciples, Jesus's Family (brothers and sisters) and all followers and friends of Jesus?

I rest my case

There was a time when all the people of the world believed that Earth is flat in shape due to HOW IT APPEAR PHYSICALLY TO THEIR SENSE OF SIGHT. Yet the Earth is not flat in shape but spherical

Now suppose God sent a prophet to this ancient people . And it was written in a book given to this prophet as follows;

"That they said ( in boast) :Earth is flat in shape. But the Earth is not flat in shape, BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM. They have no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety, the earth is not flat in shape but spherical".

Based on this fact, Please can we say God Almighty deceived this people into thinking that Earth is flat ? Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the Earth to look as being flat in shape IN THE EYES OF THESE ANCIENT PEOPLE?

Another analogy is the case of evolution. Evolutionists believe that human being evolved from great African apes due to vague resemblance between the physical appearance and the DNA of these two species .
Now if God says ; "Human being did not evolve from apes. BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM"

Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the the DNA and physical appearance of apes and human being to look alike in the EYES OF THESE EVOLUTIONISTS ?

All these are not deception on the part of God but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE on the part of this ancient people and on the part of evolutionists.

Similar thing occur on the issue of Jesus crucifixion. Almost all the people of the earth including both the Jews and Christians believed that Jesus was crucified due to their INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE about what really happened.

This is the reason why Allah says;
"and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with NO CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE, but only conjecture to follow (Qur'an 4:157).

Therefore, Allah's statement "but so it was made to appear to them" that Jesus was crucified is NOT DECEPTION on the part of Allah but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE ON THE PART OF THOSE WHO WITNESSED THE EVENT.

TenQ:
Was that why you didn't respond to my post. I copied you didn't I?

https://www.nairaland.com/7436930/plain-idolatry-muslims-islam#118526411

Have I spoken UNTRUTHS about Islam?

Are you Kobojunkie ni?

Yes or No?

As for your questions in that thread, they are not poser but conjecture from your depraved minds.

No point answering someone with a closed mind. Nothing will be gained rather a waste of time.

Jesus was the only prophet given birth to in a mysterious manner.,even your Quran testifies to it.. and also testifies that is the only messiah. So, no argument accept him in to your life and experience a turnaround experience which is beyond your mental capacity as you thought you are very intelligent and can argue with facts. Things of the spirits is different from your religion intelligence,
Your argument does not change and will never change the fact that is the only route to heaven.

Abdulgaffar22:
After the departure of Jesus (peace be upon him) from this world, a bright light from heaven that called himself Jesus of Nazareth flashed around a man called Paul (whose original name was Saul) on his way to Damascus;


"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me (Acts 22:6-9)"



But did Paul (Saul) truly meet the original Jesus Christ (pbuh) on his way to Damascus ?


Let's consider the following points of evidence ;

1ST POINT OF EVIDENCE

Before Jesus (pbuh) left the surface of the earth, he forewarned the original apostles as follows:


"Take heed that no one deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying; I am the Christ; and shall deceive many (Matthew 24:4-5)…


“Then if anyone says here is Christ or there, do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you; Christ is out in the wilderness, do not go out; or Christ is in the inner rooms, do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, then the vultures will gather (Matthew 24:23-28)"


[Please take note of how the phrase "if anyone (which means without exception)" is being used repeatedly by Jesus in the verses above.]


“Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them Luke 21:8-9).


Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many (Mark 13:5-6)


In all the verses above, the disciples are commanded by Jesus(pbuh) not to believe in any account of a person who claim to have seen Jesus in a private manner prior to his universally-visible appearance to all. Jesus(pbuh) was telling us that his returning to earth again from heaven will be clear and unmistakable to everyone. That is to say, Jesus will be visible to every eye from every corner of the world in the same way that lightning that comes from the east is visible to those in the West . The people would gather to see Jesus coming from the heaven just like vultures gather over the carcass. Hence, any private appearances of Jesus to anyone or to only a few set of people before this universally public appearance should be ignored and discarded


Therefore, if Jesus’ private appearance to Paul in form of “a bright light from heaven" on his way to Damascus would be an exception to this great warning of not believing in private appearances of Christ, then Jesus (pbuh)should have foretold this exceptional event to the original apostles before he ascended to heaven. However, Jesus (pbuh) did not foretell anything like such.


2ND POINT OF EVIDENCE

Instead of foretelling to the original apostles that he would privately appear to someone like Paul in form of a bright light from heaven” before his universally-visible appearance to all, Jesus only informed them as follows;


"And he said unto them, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke10:18 KJV)".


That is to say, Jesus saw Satan in a form of a lightening falling from heaven. This is the appearance usually taken by Satan and this is the main reason why he was called Lucifer (which means light-bearer or morning star or shining one ) in Isaiah 14:12 KJV

[Lucifer is a combination of [lūx (light) + ferō (bear, carry) in Latin language]


But is it really reasonable to believe that it was Satan, and not Jesus, that revealed himself to Paul in form of lightning from heaven? Yes, it is not only reasonable but also provable by combining together the three strong facts below ;


1. Jesus has already forewarned the original apostles not to believe in any account of a person proclaiming private appearance of Christ, using repeatedly the phrase if anyone.... (which means without exception -see Matthew 24:23-28 quoted above)



2. If Jesus really foretold that he beheld Satan in a form of lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18 KJV), then Jesus would never emulate Satan by appearing in the same form to any chosen apostle. Yet it was the same lightning (i:e bright light) from heaven that revealed himself to Paul on his road to Damascus (see Acts 22:6-9 quoted above).



3. Matthew 24:36 clearly shows that Jesus does not know the actual day which general resurrection will take place and again Mark 11:12-14 clearly revealed that Jesus did not know that a distant fig tree had no fruits (until he reached the tree) which all implies that Jesus cannot be God who always has a perfect knowledge about all things.

Yet contrary to this basic fact, Paul indirectly proclaimed that Jesus is God by stating that all the fullness of God ( i:e the whole of divine nature) dwell in the body of Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:19, 2:9).

Hence stylishly, Paul caused the christians to commit the sin of idolatry by giving them the opportunity to take Jesus (who is only a man-- Acts 2:22) as a divine God.



See how all the evidence explained above support the fact that the bright light that revealed himself to Paul on his way to Damascus was not Jesus Christ but Satan in disguise - a ravening wolf that came in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15).


But despite this satanic delusion experienced by Paul, almost half of the books (13 out of 27) found in the New Testament were written by him alone.


Look at the foundation upon which the edifice of Christianity is erected !


This is the top secret that is clearly depicted in the Bible but which is still unknown to many Christians

OP, I was really disappointed after reading your write- up.
It is only a foolish Christian that will attack Islam and label it a false religion. It is also a foolish Muslim that will attack Christianity and label it a false religion.
The issue you were trying to raise in the Bible is beyond your comprehension just as numerous issues in the Quran is beyond my comprehension.

1. Jesus Christ is the light of the World - John 8:12. Satan is a fallen angel that always try to imitate the qualities of Jesus Christ.

Hence in Luke 10:18, Jesus saw Satan fall like lighting from Heaven.

In the Book of Acts of Apostle, Apostle Paul had an encounter with a light which led to his conversion.

Hence to determine whether the light that appeared to Paul was the original light ( Jesus) or the fake light ( Satan), we should consider the activities of Paul afterward.
Paul became the preacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ after the encounter. He visited the disciples of Jesus Christ and they confirmed He had an encounter with the original light which is Jesus Christ.

Paul casted out demons from people, heal the sick and raised the deads. Will someone working for Satan carry out such activities?

In Acts 16: 25-27, Paul was imprisoned for preaching the gospel.
At midnight, he and his companion were signing hymns to God. To prove that Paul was an Apostle approved by Heaven, God sent an earthquake to the prison.
The earthquake broke the prison Gates and chains. Paul was set free by the Almighty God.
If Paul had been working for Satan, Will God deliver him from the prison ?

There are many reasons Jesus Christ selected Paul to become his apostle. I shall give you some of these reason if you are interested in them.

MikeofAfrica:
OP, I was really disappointed after reading your write- up.
It is only a foolish Christian that will attack Islam and label it a false religion. It is also a foolish Muslim that will attack Christianity and label it a false religion.
The issue you were trying to raise in the Bible is beyond your comprehension just as numerous issues in the Quran is beyond my comprehension.

1. Jesus Christ is the light of the World - John 8:12. Satan is a fallen angel that always try to imitate the qualities of Jesus Christ.

Hence in Luke 10:18, Jesus saw Satan fall like lighting from Heaven.

In the Book of Acts of Apostle, Apostle Paul had an encounter with a light which led to his conversion.

Hence to determine whether the light that appeared to Paul was the original light ( Jesus) or the fake light ( Satan), we should consider the activities of Paul afterward.
Paul became the preacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ after the encounter. He visited the disciples of Jesus Christ and they confirmed He had an encounter with the original light which is Jesus Christ.

Paul casted out demons from people, heal the sick and raised the deads. Will someone working for Satan carry out such activities?

In Acts 16: 25-27, Paul was imprisoned for preaching the gospel.
At midnight, he and his companion were signing hymns to God. To prove that Paul was an Apostle approved by Heaven, God sent an earthquake to the prison.
The earthquake broke the prison Gates and chains. Paul was set free by the Almighty God.
If Paul had been working for Satan, Will God deliver him from the prison ?

There are many reasons Jesus Christ selected Paul to become his apostle. I shall give you some of these reason if you are interested in them.

@your second paragraph, I am sure you are not new to new to Nairaland and see what your Christian brethren write and post about Islam. Some of them have never posted anything to further the message of the one they considered their Lord and savior but rather target Islam and Muslims.

What the Muslims is only reactionary most times. Prior to signing up on Nairaland, I have read write-up and post as a guest for more than 5years and I was "forced" to sign up to do what? Defend my Faith and co-travellers in Faith.

Christians like you should speak up and dissuade fellow Christians from the hatred openly displayed against Islam. It doesn't scratch a thing rather it furthers the reach of Islam as more and more people have been known to revert to Islam when they go on their own Research after being led to do so by the campaign of calumny of the Faith.

I am a Muslim and a proud one at that. The only "Fight" allowed me in the Quran is the fight for my Faith.

Lukuluku69:
Are you Kobojunkie ni?

Yes or No?

As for your questions in that thread, they are not poser but conjecture from your depraved minds.

No point answering someone with a closed mind. Nothing will be gained rather a waste of time.

Oh!

So I have a closed mind because I am not an Idolater who ascribe the power of FORGIVENESS to a STONE?

Does the black stone have the power to expunge you of your sins when you touch it in sincerity?

Is the Blackstone truely USELESS

TenQ:
Oh!

So I have a closed mind because I am not an Idolater who ascribe the power of FORGIVENESS to a STONE?

Does the black stone have the power to expunge you of your sins when you touch it in sincerity?

Is the Blackstone truely USELESS

You have a closed mind because you don't reason. You have a closed mind beacsue your views are only from the Bible. You have a closed mind because you never believed God Almighty inspired other nations of the world. You have a closed mind because Salvation is only found in the Blood of a reluctant victim.. you have a closed mind because you are a bigot. I can go on and on but I will stop here for you to ponder and reconsider.

As for your fixation with the Black Stone at the Kaaba.

My views are what the Quran and Authentic Haddith says about it and not conjectures of any man.

So, go into the Quran and the Hadith and not what one sheik or Mallam says.

Is the OBJECTIVE of DECEPTION not to cause a MISCONCEPTION of the Target?

Without Allah's intervention, would their be a MISCONCEPTION?

Your English is better than this sir!

Abdulgaffar22:
There was a time when all the people of the world believed that Earth is flat in shape due to HOW IT APPEAR PHYSICALLY TO THEIR SENSE OF SIGHT. Yet the Earth is not flat in shape but spherical

Now suppose God sent a prophet to this ancient people . And it was written in a book given to this prophet as follows;

"That they said ( in boast) :Earth is flat in shape. But the Earth is not flat in shape, BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM. They have no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety, the earth is not flat in shape but spherical".

Based on this fact, Please can we say God Almighty deceived this people into thinking that Earth is flat ? Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the Earth to look as being flat in shape IN THE EYES OF THESE ANCIENT PEOPLE?

Another analogy is the case of evolution. Evolutionists believe that human being evolved from great African apes due to vague resemblance between the physical appearance and the DNA of these two species .
Now if God says ; "Human being did not evolve from apes. BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM"

Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the the DNA and physical appearance of apes and human being to look alike in the EYES OF THESE EVOLUTIONISTS ?

All these are not deception on the part of God but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE on the part of this ancient people and on the part of evolutionists.

Similar thing occur on the issue of Jesus crucifixion. Almost all the people of the earth including both the Jews and Christians believed that Jesus was crucified due to their INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE about what really happened.

This is the reason why Allah says;
"and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with NO CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE, but only conjecture to follow (Qur'an 4:157).

Therefore, Allah's statement "but so it was made to appear to them" that Jesus was crucified is NOT DECEPTION on the part of Allah but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE ON THE PART OF THOSE WHO WITNESSED THE EVENT.

SUMMARY:
It was a misconception by the people.

I'M SURE YOU KNOW THAT WHEN UNTRUTHS IS QUESTIONED, THE TRUTH IS REVEALED?

1. Was someone else Crucified INSTEAD of Jesus?
2. Who made it that Jesus wasn't Crucified but it Seemed like He was?
3. Who took Jesus to Himself?
4. Where the Apostles, Mary, Jesus Siblings, Disciples, Romans and Jews aware that Allah made a SWITCH and in fact Jesus was taken out of the earth?
5. While Jesus was Alive, was there a Misconception by Mary, the Disciples, the Siblings of Jesus, the followers of Christ, the Jews and the Romans and with the Jews about the whereabout of Jesus?


CAN YOU THEN SHOW THAT THIS MISCONCEPTION WAS NOT CAUSED BY ALLAH?

Lukuluku69:
You have a closed mind because you don't reason. You have a closed mind beacsue your views are only from the Bible. You have a closed mind because you never believed God Almighty inspired other nations of the world. You have a closed mind because Salvation is only found in the Blood of a reluctant victim.. you have a closed mind because you are a bigot. I can go on and on but I will stop here for you to ponder and reconsider.

As for your fixation with the Black Stone at the Kaaba.

My views are what the Quran and Authentic Haddith says about it and not conjectures of any man.

So, go into the Quran and the Hadith and not what one sheik or Mallam says.

I quoted exactly what the Qur'an and the Hadiths say about the black stone and nothing more. I did not even use the bible.

I'll repost here and YOU tell me ify claims are UNTRUTHS according to Islam:

TenQ:
Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?


References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.

TenQ:
REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

Cc:


If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

IS ANYTHING UNTRUE HERE?
I've not used the Bible one bit iny writeup: rather, I used Islam and Islamic sources.

I'm sure you are not saying that salvation can also be in a stone!

So, the Question again:

The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Lukuluku69:
@your second paragraph, I am sure you are not new to new to Nairaland and see what your Christian brethren write and post about Islam. Some of them have never posted anything to further the message of the one they considered their Lord and savior but rather target Islam and Muslims.

What the Muslims is only reactionary most times. Prior to signing up on Nairaland, I have read write-up and post as a guest for more than 5years and I was "forced" to sign up to do what? Defend my Faith and co-travellers in Faith.

Christians like you should speak up and dissuade fellow Christians from the hatred openly displayed against Islam. It doesn't scratch a thing rather it furthers the reach of Islam as more and more people have been known to revert to Islam when they go on their own Research after being led to do so by the campaign of calumny of the Faith.

I am a Muslim and a proud one at that. The only "Fight" allowed me in the Quran is the fight for my Faith.

I have seen how some of my fellow Christians are mocking Islam on nairaland.
I apologize on their behalf, they do not know what they are doing. I was once like them but I later understood Islam when I got to the age of maturity in Spiritual issues.

When Hagai and Ishmael were sent away from the house of Abraham, God sent an Angel from Heaven to dig a well in the wilderness so that Ishmael can drink some water( Genesis 21 : 15-21).

If Islam is not part of God's agenda for mankind, He would not have send an Angel to save Ishmael. The Bible even noted that God was with Ishmael during his days on Earth( Genesis 21:20). If God was with Ishmael, then it means that He is also with his descendants, the Muslims .

Hence the Bible confirmed Islam as a genuine religion acceptable to God. I am also aware that the Quran confirm Christianity as a genuine religion acceptable to God.

Hence any Christian labeling Islam a false religion is either ignorant or foolish. Similarly, any Muslim labeling Christianity a false religion is either ignorant or foolish.

We have to love each other which is the main teachings of Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed.

Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior and you will be indeed

TenQ:
I quoted exactly what the Qur'an and the Hadiths say about the black stone and nothing more. I did not even use the bible.

I'll repost here and YOU tell me ify claims are UNTRUTHS according to Islam:





IS ANYTHING UNTRUE HERE?
I've not used the Bible one bit iny writeup: rather, I used Islam and Islamic sources.

I'm sure you are not saying that salvation can also be in a stone!

So, the Question again:

The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Leave all the dogo Turenchi you posted. Now do Two things.

1. Quote from the Text of the Quran what it say about the Kaaba and the Black Stone.

2. Quote from the Hadith.

Do the above and let us see.

MikeofAfrica:
I have seen how some of my fellow Christians are mocking Islam on nairaland.
I apologize on their behalf, they do not know what they are doing. I was once like them but I later understood Islam when I got to the age of maturity in Spiritual issues.

When Hagai and Ishmael were sent away from the house of Abraham, God sent an Angel from Heaven to dig a well in the wilderness so that Ishmael can drink some water( Genesis 21 : 15-21).

If Islam is not part of God's agenda for mankind, He would not have send an Angel to save Ishmael. The Bible even noted that God was with Ishmael during his days on Earth( Genesis 21:20). If God was with Ishmael, then it means that He is also with his descendants, the Muslims .

Hence the Bible confirmed Islam as a genuine religion acceptable to God. I am also aware that the Quran confirm Christianity as a genuine religion acceptable to God.

Hence any Christian labeling Islam a false religion is either ignorant or foolish. Similarly, any Muslim labeling Christianity a false religion is either ignorant or foolish.

We have to love each other which is the main teachings of Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed.

It is really disheartening. Islam claim descent from Abraham thru Ishmael. Judaism/Christian dome do thru Isaac. Yet you will see Christians saying unprintable stuff against Ishamel and his mother and when you ask then what are his offence/s if any, they will point to his "mocking" of Isaac as a baby! It is not written that he is disobedient, nor worship other gods aside the God his father worshiped.

It was God Himself that chooses his name :Ishamel meaning God Heard. God said He will bless him and build him a great Nation. God send Angel to strength him and his mother while in the wilderness yet the Christians on here will disregard what was written in their own book and forge nonsense and affix it to his person.

Check below, I have Quoted both the Qur'an, Tafsirs and the Hadiths with respect to Idolatry and the Black stone in Islam.

I didn't put a single bible verse o! LOL

Lukuluku69:
Leave all the dogo Turenchi you posted. Now do Two things.

1. Quote from the Text of the Quran what it say about the Kaaba and the Black Stone.

2. Quote from the Hadith.

Do the above and let us see.

Check the dogo turenchi I posted, it contains several Qur'an , Tafsirs and Hadiths.

Let me repost them as I am Sure you didn't read my dogo turenchi. LOL!

This time, I will remove the quotes so that you can read carefully.


Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?



References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.


REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902


If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

Many will come in my name saying I am the Christ, not many will come in my name preaching that I( Jesus) is the Christ.

Big difference.

So correct your interpretation.

Peace be upon you, in Jesus name.

TenQ:
Check below, I have Quoted both the Qur'an, Tafsirs and the Hadiths with respect to Idolatry and the Black stone in Islam.

I didn't put a single bible verse o! LOL


Check the dogo turenchi I posted, it contains several Qur'an , Tafsirs and Hadiths.

Let me repost them as I am Sure you didn't read my dogo turenchi. LOL!

This time, I will remove the quotes so that you can read carefully.


Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?



References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.


REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902


If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

Bros do this below

1. Quote the Text of the Quran in relation to the Kaaba.

2. Quite the Hadith you have in relation to the Black Stone.

Don't jumble them together. Do that and let us see. Leave the commentaries for those are human minds. They could be right and they could be wrong.

TenQ:
Is the OBJECTIVE of DECEPTION not to cause a MISCONCEPTION of the Target?

Without Allah's intervention, would their be a MISCONCEPTION?

Your English is better than this sir!


SUMMARY:
It was a misconception by the people.

I'M SURE YOU KNOW THAT WHEN UNTRUTHS IS QUESTIONED, THE TRUTH IS REVEALED?

1. Was someone else Crucified INSTEAD of Jesus?
2. Who made it that Jesus wasn't Crucified but it Seemed like He was?
3. Who took Jesus to Himself?
4. Where the Apostles, Mary, Jesus Siblings, Disciples, Romans and Jews aware that Allah made a SWITCH and in fact Jesus was taken out of the earth?
5. While Jesus was Alive, was there a Misconception by Mary, the Disciples, the Siblings of Jesus, the followers of Christ, the Jews and the Romans and with the Jews about the whereabout of Jesus?


CAN YOU THEN SHOW THAT THIS MISCONCEPTION WAS NOT CAUSED BY ALLAH?

Are you trying to say that misconception of the ancient people concerning the shape of the Earth was caused by God (by making the Earth to look flat in their eyes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Again, are you trying to say that misconception of the evolutionists concerning the origin of man was caused by God (by making human to resemble Africa Apes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Don't you know that allowing Jesus to be crucified, despite all his fervent cries and prayers in three different consecutive times (Matthew 26:36-44) in the Garden of Gethsemane is a big slap on the face of God Almighty.

It is totally IRRATIONAL for an innocent, righteous and beloved SON of a merciful and omnipotent FATHER to be under the CURSE of the same father !!!

A good Father is naturally known to always BLESS and never to CURSE his own righteous and beloved son for any reason whatsoever;

Even Paul knew very well that it is IRRATIONAL to believe that Jesus was ACCURSED by God. This is the reason why he contradicts himself by saying as follows;

"Therefore, I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus ACCURSED !” (1st Corinthians 12:3).

Yet the ONLY WAY for Jesus not to become "accursed" was for him NOT to die on the cross since it is clearly written in the the same Bible that ANYONE that is crucified is accursed by God (Deuteronomy 21:23, Galatians 3:13).



Do you believe that God Almighty can SPEAK A LIE in order to resolve one particular problem ? Certainly not ! This is because it is naturally known for God to always SPEAK THE TRUTH and never to speak a lie for any reason whatsoever.

Now, if this is the case, why do you believe that God Almighty can put an innocent and righteous soul (like Jesus) under a CURSE in order to resolve one particular problem ?

God Almighty is naturally known to always BLESS an innocent and righteous soul just like God Almighty is naturally known to always SPEAK THE TRUTH.

If you believe that God cannot speak a lie and you believe that God can put an innocent and righteous soul under His curse, then are you not displaying double standards in your belief regarding the character of God ?

God Almighty can allow an innocent and righteous soul to suffer (i:e experience physical harm) due to one reason or the other. But God Almighty can never allow an innocent and righteous soul to fall under His curse for any reason whatsoever ! This is because God is naturally known to BLESS and never to CURSE an innocent and righteous soul.

Abdulgaffar22:
Are you trying to say that misconception of the ancient people concerning the shape of the Earth was caused by God (by making the Earth to look flat in their eyes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Again, are you trying to say that misconception of the evolutionists concerning the origin of man was caused by God (by making human to resemble Africa Apes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Don't you know that allowing Jesus to be crucified, despite all his fervent cries and prayers in three different consecutive times (Matthew 26:36-44) in the Garden of Gethsemane is a big slap on the face of God Almighty.

It is totally IRRATIONAL for an innocent, righteous and beloved SON of a merciful and omnipotent FATHER to be under the CURSE of the same father !!!

A good Father is naturally known to always BLESS and never to CURSE his own righteous and beloved son for any reason whatsoever;

Even Paul knew very well that it is IRRATIONAL to believe that Jesus was ACCURSED by God. This is the reason why he contradicts himself by saying as follows;

"Therefore, I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus ACCURSED !” (1st Corinthians 12:3).

Yet the ONLY WAY for Jesus not to become "accursed" was for him NOT to die on the cross since it is clearly written in the the same Bible that ANYONE that is crucified is accursed by God (Deuteronomy 21:23, Galatians 3:13).



Do you believe that God Almighty can SPEAK A LIE in order to resolve one particular problem ? Certainly not ! This is because it is naturally known for God to always SPEAK THE TRUTH and never to speak a lie for any reason whatsoever.

Now, if this is the case, why do you believe that God Almighty can put an innocent and righteous soul (like Jesus) under a CURSE in order to resolve one particular problem ?

God Almighty is naturally known to always BLESS an innocent and righteous soul just like God Almighty is naturally known to always SPEAK THE TRUTH.

If you believe that God cannot speak a lie and you believe that God can put an innocent and righteous soul under His curse, then are you not displaying double standards in your belief regarding the character of God ?

God Almighty can allow an innocent and righteous soul to suffer (i:e experience physical harm) due to one reason or the other. But God Almighty can never allow an innocent and righteous soul to fall under His curse for any reason whatsoever ! This is because God is naturally known to BLESS and never to CURSE an innocent and righteous soul.

You want to convince yourself that the misconception of people that the earth was flat is equivalent to the misconception CAUSED BY Allah!?
No Way!

Human beings FROM inception met the Earth exactly as it was. God did not change ANYTHING about the earth as it has ALWAYS been a sphere.

Is it TRUE that the INTERVENTION of Allah in the Crucifixion of Jesus caused your so-called misconception of ALL who love JESUS?