italo:

Ah-ah!

Okay. If a person believes in Christ, but continues to live in the worst sins, and he dies in his sins, is he still destined for heaven or is he not?

Please just give a clear honest answer.

Once again, a so-called Christian would rather twist or flee than give an honest answer.

@jammyunn,
I respect your views.

Jude 1:5
So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful.
Belief is not passive. It is a way of life.

jammyunn:
■ Since we all know that salvation is "FREE" and non of our works determines that. What does Paul mean when he told the phillipians(phil. 2vs12) to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? I've read some articles on this but still not clear to me. One suggested that the word "work out" is not exactly what it means in greek. It says that the proper word to use in today's english would be "respect"(respect your salvation with fear and trembling, respect the salvation you have been given freely)

1. Salvation is actually not free. You don't pay any out-of-pocket cost to obtain it but you have to submit yourself to and obey God's teachings and commandments, His Law, in order to obtain any one of them. And that process of living one's life in submission and obedience to God's Law is what is referred to as doing work commanded by God. And both Salvations — Salvation from Death, and Salvation from Sin itself — required obedience on the part of the one who seeks them — there is no free lunch with God.

Thank you 🙏

Kobojunkie:
1. Salvation is actually not free. You don't pay any out-of-pocket cost to obtain it but you have to submit yourself to and obey God's teachings and commandments, His Law, in order to obtain any one of them. And that process of living one's life in submission and obedience to God's Law is what is referred to as doing work commanded by God. And both Salvations — Salvation from Death, and Salvation from Sin itself — required obedience on the part of the one who seeks them — there is no free lunch with God.

PastorOluT:
■ I state here again u dont work for ur salvation bt rather u work out that which is work in in u by the Holy Ghost. U dont do anything to add to ur salvation, bt 'cos u remain on earth u have to remain safe till Jesus come. God had already performed the work of salvation in u bt it is in a seed form, so u have to work it out to make manifest by walking in the spirit daily. There is absolutely nothing like working to get saved according to the scripture. NB Pls read the comment n understand before commenting, I also believe salvation could be lost, bt about once saved n saved forever I believe it, bt definitely not what u think. If u want to discuss it i will gladly oblige u. Stay blessed n remain rapturable

1. Your claim contains a contradiction. If God has already done it all, why do you need to work at all?

italo:
■ I think you rather MISTREATED it in that thread. It is because of your mistreatment that you and Pastor Olu T are now desperately looking for a way to twist "work out your salvation" to mean something else. If salvation cant be lost, then once you have it, you dont need to work out anything. You dont need to do anything. You dont even need to "respect" it for it to stay. Think about it and stop mistreating Bible verses.

1. If you carefully examine the entire context of the conversation that Jesus Christ had with Nicodemus in John 3 vs 1 - 21, you come to realize why salvation from the condemnation of sin aka Death, cannot be lost. This has to do with the fact that it is eternal in attribute meaning that once you receive Eternal Life by way of being born of the Spirit of Eternal Life, there is no going back to your former state — you cannot be unborn of the Spirit of Eternal Life after being born-again.

As for why you have to work out your salvation, well, that has to do with the fact that being born-again, only guarantees that you will never perish in the grave. It doesn't however guarantee you eternity in Heaven — the alternative is an eternity in Hell. To obtain the salvation that will guarantee you a place in Heaven — eternal reward — you have to do good works, and as Jesus Christ explained, only those who stand faithful — in continuous submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Truth and Law in the Kingdom of God — until the very end will be saved. So, there is work indeed to be done if Heaven is your goal after becoming born-again.

Kobojunkie:
1. Your claim contains a contradiction. If God has already done it all, why do you need to work at all?

I don't see the contradiction. God is working it in you and you are working it out for manifestation.

12

AMP:Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

13

AMP:[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.

Philippians 2:12-13

PastorOluT:

I don't see the contradiction. God is working it in you and you are working it out for manifestation.

You don't seem to have a clear understanding of what a contradiction is

con·tra·dic·tion

a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.

If God has in fact done it all for you what that should mean is that there is absolutely nothing left for you to do in this. However, since according to you, you have work that you must do for what you claim as manifestation, then it means God has not done it all for you as you previously claimed.

Kobojunkie:
You don't seem to have a clear understanding of what a contradiction is

If God has in fact done it all for you what that should mean is that there is absolutely nothing left for you to do in this. However, since according to you, you have work that you must do for what you claim as manifestation, then it means God has not done it all for you as you previously claimed.

Smile, and you seem not know what paradox means. A seemingly contraction but in fact true.

God has done it all and nothing is added, but we bear the responsibility of showing it forth as we work out what God has worked in.

NB. I also strongly think semantics is not the bone of contention here, but living the life of Christ in this fallen generation. Not living compromisingly and morally bankrupt in this evil generation but shining the light and life of Christ.

Stay blessed and remain rapturable.

PastorOluT:
■ Smile, and you seem not know what paradox means. A seemingly contraction but in fact true.
■ God has done it all and nothing is added, but we bear the responsibility of showing it forth as we work out what God has worked in.
■ NB. I also strongly think semantics is not the bone of contention here, but living the life of Christ in this fallen generation.
■ Not living compromisingly and morally bankrupt in this evil generation but shining the light and life of Christ.
■ Stay blessed and remain rapturable.

1. I understand a paradox well; what I don't understand is how you concluded that this qualifies as a paradox.

2. What you described does not in any way sound like a paradox as it instead suggests that God has done His part, and what is left is in your doing your part of the work that is required. Yes?

3. Lack of language comprehension is at the core of the problem that is understanding and resolving it means having to deal with the semantics of claims we make, etc.

Jesus Christ never said God has done it all as after all that would mean we are not to bother doing any of what He commands in His Law and teachings to us. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ was clear in His Gospels that it is those who do the work commanded by HIm, and the work done by Him, that are truly His and loved by God, and will go on to be saved at the end - John 8 vs 31 - 44 & John 14 vs 15 - 27 & John 15 by 7 - 11 & Matthew 10 vs 22 & Matthew 24 vs 12 - 13 & Mark 13 vs 13. As a matter of fact, the entirety of the Gospels — embodied in the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ Himself — is in fact God's Constitutional Law in God's special Nation of Priests - Exodus 19 vs 6 - and it is only those who abide by the Constitution that will inherit the Kingdom of God - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. That is instead what Jesus Christ in fact taught and to abide by a Constitution means one must live and breath by — work— its statutes and commandments.

4. Stop confusing your moral compasses of men with God's Law which is instead a standard that is much higher than that given to you by Jesus Christ.

5. Rapturable? Are you kidding me?

Kobojunkie:
1. I understand a paradox well; what I don't understand is how you concluded that this qualifies as a paradox.

2. What you described does not in any way sound like a paradox as it instead suggests that God has done His part, and what is left is in your doing your part of the work that is required. Yes?

3. Lack of language comprehension is at the core of the problem that is understanding and resolving it means having to deal with the semantics of claims we make, etc.

Jesus Christ never said God has done it all as after all that would mean we are not to bother doing any of what He commands in His Law and teachings to us. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ was clear in His Gospels that it is those who do the work commanded by HIm, and the work done by Him, that are truly His and loved by God, and will go on to be saved at the end - John 8 vs 31 - 44 & John 14 vs 15 - 27 & John 15 by 7 - 11 & Matthew 10 vs 22 & Matthew 24 vs 12 - 13 & Mark 13 vs 13. As a matter of fact, the entirety of the Gospels — embodied in the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ Himself — is in fact God's Constitutional Law in God's special Nation of Priests - Exodus 19 vs 6 - and it is only those who abide by the Constitution that will inherit the Kingdom of God - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. That is instead what Jesus Christ in fact taught and to abide by a Constitution means one must live and breath by — work— its statutes and commandments.

Before I continue with the discourse I will like to know your stance on Salvation?
Modify.
I see its a thread long ago. I will come back after reading the whole thread from beginning..
shalom.

PastorOluT:
■ Before I continue with the discourse I will like to know your stance on Salvation?

Jesus Christ, God's Truth, and God's Eternal Life, and God's Way offered two salvations

■ Salvation from the condemnation of Sin which is Death - John 3 vs 1 - 21 by which He gifts those who obey with Eternal Life aka grace in place of the curse of Death which was previously upon such a one. As it states, this salvation is eternal in origin meaning one is incapable of losing it. In other words, once one gains access to the Kingdom of God — either through the broad gate or the narrow gate described in Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 — by way of the Spirit of Eternal life, there is no going back after that. The individual becomes eternally bound to the Kingdom of God for better(eternal reward) or for worse(eternal damnation) - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 .

■ Salvation from Sin unto everlasting Righteousness - Matthew 10 vs 22 & Matthew 24 vs 12- 13 & Mark 13 vs 13 - by which one is then sealed by the Spirit of God aka the Spirit of Truth in righteousness. As Jesus Christ made clear in His Gospels, it is only those who stand faithful — living in continuous submission and obedience to His teachings and commandments, God's Truth — until the end, that will be saved in this manner. Those who fall by the way before the end will have themselves to blame.
So which one exactly are you asking me of?

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ, God's Truth, and God's Eternal Life, and God's Way offered two salvations

■ Salvation from the condemnation of Sin which is Death - John 3 vs 1 - 21 by which He gifts those who obey with Eternal Life aka grace in place of the curse of Death which was previously upon such a one. As it states, this salvation is eternal in origin meaning one is incapable of losing it. In other words, once one gains access to the Kingdom of God — either through the broad gate or the narrow gate described in Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 — by way of the Spirit of Eternal life, there is no going back after that. The individual becomes eternally bound to the Kingdom of God for better(eternal reward) or for worse(eternal damnation) - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 .

■ Salvation from Sin unto everlasting Righteousness - Matthew 10 vs 22 & Matthew 24 vs 12- 13 & Mark 13 vs 13 - by which one is then sealed by the Spirit of God aka the Spirit of Truth in righteousness. As Jesus Christ made clear in His Gospels, it is only those who stand faithful — living in continuous submission and obedience to His teachings and commandments, God's Truth — until the end, that will be saved in this manner. Those who fall by the way before the end will have themselves to blame.
So which one exactly are you asking me of?

My stance

The Bible divides the matter of salvation into three periods
And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you through and through [separate you from profane things, make you pure and wholly consecrated to God]; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved sound and complete [and found] blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Amplified

The first period is the past when God saved us from the penalty of sin which is hell. The second period is the present in which God is saving us from the power of sin. The third period is the future when God will save us from the presence of sin to enter the kingdom and to reign with Christ.

Let me illustrate each of them with a pertinent verse:

(1) “Who [God] saved us, and called us . . .” (2 Tim. 1.9). This is the past experience which everyone who believes has had.

(2) “Wherefore also [Christ] is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him . . .” (Heb. 7.25). This is present salvation which we may obtain today.

(3) “So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation” (Heb. 9.28). This is future and complete salvation.

Thus it is evident that the Scriptures speak of these three periods of salvation. All Christians may have the salvation past, but they may not have the salvation present and future. Some may have the salvation past and present, and they are looking for the salvation future. A person may be saved from the penalty of hell, yet he may still sin daily. A person may be saved from the penalty of hell, but he may not necessarily reign in the future.

I will quote three more Scriptures to prove the validity of these three periods of salvation.

(1) “By grace have ye been saved. . .” (Eph. 2.. This refers to salvation past.

(2) “If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life” (Rom. 5.10). This speaks of how we now are saved by the Lord’s life.

(3) “In hope were we saved” (Rom. 8.24). This points to the future salvation.

We thank and praise God, for we were saved! Nevertheless, there are two periods of salvation yet to be experienced. Hence we must earnestly pursue. To people who have not been saved, we should tell them to believe that they may be saved from the penalty of hell. But to us who are saved from hell, we need to be saved from the power of sin, as well as to seek after the glory of the kingdom to come. Let us accordingly work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ). [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.

Philippians 2:12-13 Amplified


Stay blessed and remain rapturable

PastorOluT:
My stance. The Bible divides the matter of salvation into three periods. The first period is the past when God saved us from the penalty of sin which is hell. The second period is the present in which God is saving us from the power of sin. The third period is the future when God will save us from the presence of sin to enter the kingdom and to reign with Christ.
■ Let me illustrate each of them with a pertinent verse:
(1) “Who [God] saved us, and called us . . .” (2 Tim. 1.9). This is the past experience which everyone who believes has had.
(2) “Wherefore also [Christ] is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him . . .” (Heb. 7.25). This is present salvation which we may obtain today.
(3) “So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation” (Heb. 9.28). This is future and complete salvation.

1. How does Christ's second coming constitute a third period when what He said is that His return is to judge the finished works of each man , works which end here when we die and not when Jesus Christ returns?

I am trying to grasp what you mean by these periods as they don't seem as clear as you claim to me.

PastorOluT:
○ Thus it is evident that the Scriptures speak of these three periods of salvation. All Christians may have the salvation past, but they may not have the salvation present and future. Some may have the salvation past and present, and they are looking for the salvation future. A person may be saved from the penalty of hell, yet he may still sin daily. A person may be saved from the penalty of hell, but he may not necessarily reign in the future.
○ I will quote three more Scriptures to prove the validity of these three periods of salvation.
(1) “By grace have ye been saved. . .” (Eph. 2.. This refers to salvation past.
(2) “If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life” (Rom. 5.10). This speaks of how we now are saved by the Lord’s life.
(3) “In hope were we saved” (Rom. 8.24). This points to the future salvation.
○ We thank and praise God, for we were saved! Nevertheless, there are two periods of salvation yet to be experienced. Hence we must earnestly pursue. To people who have not been saved, we should tell them to believe that they may be saved from the penalty of hell. But to us who are saved from hell, we need to be saved from the power of sin, as well as to seek after the glory of the kingdom to come. Let us accordingly work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ). [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.

Philippians 2:12-13 Amplified

1. I am having a hard time clearly seeing these salvation periods you speak of.

2. The scriptures don't really do for me what they seem to be doing for you there.

3. The statement I had in bold there in the passage from Philippians speaks of not 3 but the same salvation from Death and eventually sin. Recall, that when a person becomes born-again, that person is gifted with Eternal life which is grace from Death(hell aka perishing in the grave). However, that same person is not yet Heaven-bound. And so to be Heaven bound, one has to attain holiness followed by righteousness — seek first the Kingdom of God(Holiness) and His righteousness. And Paul is pretty much speaking in reference to this.

Kobojunkie:
1. I am having a hard time clearly seeing these salvation periods you speak of.

2. The scriptures don't really do for me what they seem to be doing for you there.

3. The statement I had in bold there in the passage from Philippians speaks of not 3 but the same salvation from Death and eventually sin. Recall, that when a person becomes born-again, that person is gifted with Eternal life which is grace from Death(hell aka perishing in the grave). However, that same person is not yet Heaven-bound. And so to be Heaven bound, one has to attain holiness followed by righteousness — seek first the Kingdom of God(Holiness) and His righteousness. And Paul is pretty much speaking in reference to this.

sorry been busy. shall respond in due course.

PastorOluT:

sorry been busy. shall respond in due course.

ok