AbuTwins:

So I ask you again what is worship?
If bowing, Kneeling and putting the face to the ground is worship then all the above are pagans!

AbuTwins:

Are there not fornicators in your midst that you excommunicate?
For example, in 2015 in Australia, the Jehovah Witness recorded 1006 cases of Child sexual abuse from 1950 and none was reported to the police! And there are many cover-ups within your organization which if you want we can proceed to expose here and you defend them!

AbuTwins:


Who wrote the entire Psalms?
Writers unknown but ascribed to David, Moses, 11 sons of Korah, Heman, Asaph, Solomon,...! Is that difficult to say?

That's not the topic of this thread!

FxMasterz:

Keep deceiving yourself. Majority of the Psalms have known writers. Even if the writer of a song is unknown, it does not render it less a song for worshipping God.

This thread is talking about the ka'aba. Don't run from the question.

Abraham never visited Mecca. How come he built the ka'aba? Let's talk about this particular lie regarding the ka'aba.

AbuTwins:
So you know there are unknown writers and that's what you were afraid of?

Don't worry i know all that and more!

The thread is about Muslims worshipping the Kaaba and not Abraham and the Kaaba!

MaxInDHouse:


The culture of Asians is to bow before someone they RESPECT like an ELDERLY person just as Yorùbá will do before our elders.
I remember when a Congolese first came to Nigeria seeing us doing so for elderly ones he objected furiously saying it's like worship in his own culture. So those people showed respect not worship that's why the commandments God gave Israel never said they shouldn't bow before a human because it's a sign of respect in their culture rather God said don't bow before OBJECTS! Exodus 20:4-5

Excommunication is for UNREPENTANT sinners not those who feel sorry wholeheartedly.
We only disfellowship anyone who is not ready to accept he or she is wrong because that's the first step into helping the sinner.

If you say we don't report wrongdoers to police who do you expect to go and make the report o?

We are one family and a member of the family did what is wrong of course it's a family issue nah it's when something like that involves none member of the family that the person who is not a member of our family will go and report to those whom he or she trusted can handle the matter in the best way.

Take for instance David's son molested his own sister abeg who do you think will go and make the report to the elders of Israel?
Is it not within the same family?

So in God's organization it's a family issue that is why you can't see us picking weapons against anyone or our own brothers and sisters unlike you people who will report to the police and when they failed to do what you want it will turn to community fight between Muslims and Muslims!

FxMasterz:

It doesn't concern us. The Psalms didn't fall from heaven like the lying claims of the Quran.

We can't talk about Muslims worshiping the ka'aba without talking about the origin of the ka'aba.

How come Abraham is said to have built the ka'aba when he never visited Mecca? Is that a difficult question to answer?

AbuTwins:

I asked what is worship?
Why is bowing to humans without God's permission okay but bowing to stones not okay?
Or is it that only Muslims' own get fault?
This is your David bowing towards the Holy temple!
Of David. I give You thanks with all my heart; before the gods I sing Your praises. I bow down toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your loving devotion and Your faithfulness; You have exalted Your name and Your word above all else. Psalm 138:1-2
This is your Solomon!
1 Kings 8:29
May Your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, toward the place of which You said, 'My Name shall be there,' so that You may hear the prayer that Your servant prays toward this place.
This is David again!
Psalm 5:7
But I will enter Your house by the abundance of Your loving devotion; in reverence I will bow down toward Your holy temple.

This is David again!
Psalm 28:2
Hear my cry for mercy when I call to You for help, when I lift up my hands toward Your holy sanctuary.
And Daniel got on his kneels and prayed facing Jerusalem!
Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.
Ignorant hypocrites and liars!
Who told you we worship the stone from our texts?

AbuTwins:

How is this biblical?
The Church should report! If you don't report it then you condone it. You are always against the laws and constitution of the land!

AbuTwins:

If David did that then he should be stoned!
There's nothing like family issue. The soul that sins should die! That's what your Bible say!

AbuTwins:

Yeah I agree! The Psalms is not God-breathed! Church fathers admitted Psalms with unknown writers into the Bible!

I will hand you over to the mods! I no get time!

AbuTwins:


Catholics do many rituals which I can ascribe to you too!

Are those thing found in your scripture? Be sensible for once!

[/i]

AbuTwins:


No! Samson killed himself with the presence of the Holy spirit!
So you can also do same!

AbuTwins:



No! Cos when it is Jesus someone bow to you'll say it is worship!

AbuTwins:


Catholics do many rituals which I can ascribe to you too!

Are those thing found in your scripture? Be sensible for once!



That's none of my Business! I will try as much as possible to be respectful enough and probably explain my beliefs.

No! Cos when it is Jesus someone bow to you'll say it is worship!



Define what worship is and stop running?

AbuTwins:


Show us verse?

AbuTwins:


Show us verse?

SIRTee15:


Genesis 16.9

9 Then the angel of the LORD told Hagar, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”

13 Hagar gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seennthe One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

SIRTee15:



2 chronicles 7

Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the (shikenah) glory of the Lord filled the house.

2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.

3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

SIRTee15:


Worship simply means adoration and reverence to a deity or anything you consider god.

I don't consider my parents as gods, so prostrating or bowing to them will not make them gods!!!

Once U consider something a god, any adoration or reverence to it is worship.

SIRTee15:


My friend, the bible said Jesus was worshipped not bow to or people prostrated to him.
PEOPLE WORSHIPPED JESUS AND JESUS NEVER REJECTED WORSHIP.

Matthew 28:9
And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”


Matthew 2:11
And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Luke 24.52
And the disciples worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.


The bible never mentioned other prophets were worshipped or receive worship. None.
You are the one forcing prostrate/bow to mean worship.
The bible makes it clear Thou shall only worship the LORD your God.

To prove to you that Jesus was worshipped as God in the new testament, when John fell on his face to worship the Angel, he told John never to worship him but to worship only God.

Revelation 22
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Unless U can provide verses where prophets were worshipped, your case is dead.

AbuTwins:
Thank you!

So how do we consider the stone as God?

Once U consider something a god, any adoration or reverence to it is worship. You are showing your hypocrisy full time!

You claim we worship the Kaaba in a similar way you greet your parents!

See the way Jesus worships the father
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, Matthew 26:39

Same way you greet your parents!

The difference is intention!
You didn't intend to worship them but greet them!

How is that not applicable to us if not hypocrisy?

AbuTwins:


But you hid Genesis 17:20 as a hypocrite that you are
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

AbuTwins:


What is the word translated as "worshipped"?

prosekynēsen means to fawn or crouch to, i.e. prostrate oneself in homage.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The men in the boat bowed down in front of Jesus and said, "You are truly the Son of God." Matthew 14:33

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The man bowed in front of Jesus and said, "I believe, Lord." John 9:38

Good News Translation
"I believe, Lord!" the man said, and knelt down before Jesus. John 9:38

Let me even make this a thread!

AbuTwins:


Where is Shikenah here?

This is your David bowing towards the Holy temple!
Of David. I give You thanks with all my heart; before the gods I sing Your praises. I bow down toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your loving devotion and Your faithfulness; You have exalted Your name and Your word above all else. Psalm 138:1-2

This is your Solomon!
1 Kings 8:29
May Your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, toward the place of which You said, 'My Name shall be there,' so that You may hear the prayer that Your servant prays toward this place.

This is David again!
Psalm 5:7
But I will enter Your house by the abundance of Your loving devotion; in reverence I will bow down toward Your holy temple.


This is David again!
Psalm 28:2
Hear my cry for mercy when I call to You for help, when I lift up my hands toward Your holy sanctuary.

And Daniel got on his kneels and prayed facing Jerusalem!
Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

SIRTee15:


The glory of God is called shikenah in Hebrew. Its in the talmud.

What's with all these verses U bringing...U don't get it, do U?

Prophets bow towards the temple because it's filled with the presence of God.
How many times will I spell it for U. Gosh.
They are bowing to God's glory in the temple not the physical structure.
That's why I brought 2 chronicles 7. See it in another passage.

2 chronicles 5. 13-14
Then the temple of the Lord was filled with the cloud, 14 and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

SIRTee15:


Then tell me why did the angel speaking to John reject worship and told him to worship only God.
If as U claim, worship in new testament simply means to bow.

SIRTee15:



What's all these.....we talking about angel of the LORD, U shifted to Ishmael....
Did Hagar refer to the angel of the LORD as God? Yes or No

Your genesis 17.20 is very lame, U are the one hiding something. This is the full verse.

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with Isaac as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

God's covenant is with Isaac and not Ishmael.

AbuTwins:


Is it filled with the glory of God all the time when Daniel, Solomon, David were praying?
Show the verses?

Chronicles is clearly for that verse alone!

SIRTee15:


Guy I never said U guys worship the kabba. Go through my previous post, no where did I say U guys worship a stone.

I SAID U MUSLIMS BOW BEFORE A STONE WHICH IS A SIN TO GOD.
GOD FORBID HUMANS BOWING BEFORE A STONE WHEN WORSHIPPING HIM.
GOD HATES IT WHEN YOU ASSOCIATE A STONE WITH HIM.

Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
Lev 26.1


And never set up sacred stone, for the Lord your God hates them.
Deuteronomy 16.22


Abu read to understand

AbuTwins:



The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

Aemmyjah:


Are David and Solomon Jews or Muslims?

Choose one

AbuTwins:


Is it filled with the glory of God all the time when Daniel, Solomon, David were praying?
Show the verses?

Chronicles is clearly for that verse alone!

AbuTwins:


So that means you are derailing the thread as the thread specifically addresses Muslims worshipping the Kaaba!

Sins are different in Islam and Christianity!
Sins are unequal in Islam. In Christianity sins are equal!

As regards the Black Stone:

The Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaa said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

AbuTwins:


Both Isaac and Ishmael are Prophets in Islam. Each fulfilling their own mission!
Na inside Bible God dey discriminate!

I think I have told you that Angels, Satan, Human and Yahweh can be called Elohim aka God. Why repeating this here?