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Deepsight, I'm currently listening to CSpan as I do for another thread we engage in, and coincidentally the topic being discussed is infinite regressions regarding God, and I have been reminded of the Fibonacci sequence, another infinite regression that mathematically exists.

budaatum:
Deepsight, I'm currently listening to CSpan as I do for another thread we engage in, and coincidentally the topic being discussed is infinite regressions regarding God, and I have been reminded of the Fibonacci sequence, another infinite regression that mathematically exists.

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Mathematics is not a casual sequence.
It is a mental sequence of gradations for purposes of thoughts alone.

Pure maths is neither self existent nor brings anything into existence.

Therefore you cannot use maths as an example of infinite regressions in the existential cosmological sense.

budaatum:
You say, "that nothing could exist or move in the first place", and then you create an "uncaused cause" to exist and move in that first place that you yourself say could not exist.

Is that logical at all, and not contradicting yourself?

And assuming an infinite regression is impossible, why stop at the first regression, and not the second or third or fourth regression?

For your information, an infinite regression is not a mathematical impossibility, as in does often occur. Example are found in calculation of pi and ⅓, and counting backwards a la 0, -1, -2, -3 to infinity, and more complex maths. It is only a metaphysical impossibility, and I'd argue that's due to the limits of thought, as I've proposed above.

We can at least regress to the tenth point, or the fiftieth or even the hundredth regression, but here am I being asked to stop at the second or third and insert an "uncaused cause" just because we don't actually know past the first?

My mind would not allow me to do that I'm afraid, and if I tried, it would laugh at me in mockery and emphatically tell me to pull the other one why don't you buda. But I can understand if your mind does not mock you like buda's mind would mock me when I present it with what it would flag as wuruwuru logic.

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I am most certainly not the creator of the uncaused cause.

How shall I put it simply enough.

Alright.

Let's start here.

What is time and what created or caused it.

Meedon:
This got to show that everyone has his or her own God according to their own understanding or upbringing. No wonder MacinDHouse did not believe Yahweh throw sinners into hell even though he believes in Yahweh and his only begotten son Yesusss Kristaaa.

While someone like righteousness89 believe that yahweh will throw sinners into the burning lake of fire at the time of their demise.

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Have you read the Old Testament and what is your opinion of the actions of Yahweh there.

DeepSight:
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Have you read the Old Testament and what is your opinion of the actions of Yahweh there.

I have read the Old testament countless times during my adolescent age. I used it to pass away time because my parents won't allow me to go out and play after school or church. I used to marvel at Yahweh's doings that period but when I become of age, I began to question these doings of His and I found out that he is barbaric and blood thirsty and did not deserve to be worshiped or praised.

Then I used to be very afraid of His hellfire, but now I don't fear it no more.

Meedon:
I have read the Old testament countless times during my adolescent age. I used it to pass away time because my parents won't allow me to go out and play after school or church. I used to marvel at Yahweh's doings that period but when I become of age, I began to question these doings of His and I found out that he is barbaric and blood thirsty and did not deserve to be worshiped or praised.

Then I used to be very afraid of His hellfire, but now I don't fear it no more.

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Good. You have said it all.

So you know that whatever we call the uncaused cause of all reality cannot be Yahweh.

Yahweh is simply a figment of the imagination of patriarchal ancient men.

DeepSight:
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Good. You have said it all.

So you know that whatever we called the uncaused cause of all reality cannot be Yahweh.

Yahweh is simply a figment of the imagination of patriarchal ancient men.

So it is humans that formed it from their imagination. But Otem revealed in his book that Yahweh does truly exist, but locked up in a prison.

budaatum:
I don't mind trying to help you out Meedon, but you will need to state what you struggle with for me to elaborate.

Basically, question please.

Cause and uncaused, but Deepsight have done Justice to that

triplechoice:
Thank you for your response, Fxmasterz. I understand why you perceive it as confusion, and many others have been misled by that same impression. However , if you had access to the same information I have about him and the group he belongs to , you would see that his numerous disguises are not sign of confusion, but the very evidence of his affiliation.

His behaviour aligns perfectly with the documented culture of groups like Amorc, which instruct members to conceal their affiliation. The use of disguises and misdirection is a feature of their practice,not a bug. The confusion he creates is a deliberate tactic to make it difficult for anyone to pin him down..

For, instance, if you accuse him of being a secret member of Amorc, he will deflect by asking why you don't accuse him of being a Christian since he also quotes and interpret the Bible

If you question his gender he will gaslight you with a line of the like, ,"So you want to look under my skirt to find out"?, an absurd and illogical response on a faceless forum designed to shame you into silence. It is like someone here claiming to own a Ferrari and living in a mansion, then accusing you of wanting to rob them when you express doubt

The duplicity which I observed in most of their members was what put me off when I was to join them long ago as a teenager. Someone is a member of Amorc, Freemasonry,, Ogboni,voodoist and still goes to church to receive holy communion. Yes, this is what they are known for.

Most of their members hide themselves effectively by pretending to be Christians, especially in a society like ours, where groups like Amorc and the Ogboni are widely regarded as satanic cults. You will often find them in orthodox churches like the catholic church, having gone through the full process of baptism and communion. Some even aspire to the position of a priest in the church. This is not a conspiracy created by me, it is a verifiable strategy to avoid stigmatization and ostracization

There was once an active member of Amorc on this board, I believe his moniker was Frairmathy, who stated that the major requirement for joining Amorc is a belief in a God. He explained that ,as an initiate, he was also a confirmed Catholic. Is that confusion?

From their perspective, it is not. It is how they are encouraged to operate.

So, Buda' is not confused. The confusion he projects is. the very tool he uses to operate here' undetected. After advertising Amorc to recruit new members and sharing their core doctrinal books, he pivots to interpreting the Bible and Quran to create doubt about his true affiliations. When confronted, he defends himself by. saying, " I also quote the Bible or Shakespeare, so. what am I?

But if you have seen his past activities, passionately promoting and defending Amorc, you are left by with no doubt about where his allegiance lies.

He can confuse others with his foolery, but not me. If he had not crossed a line in our discussion, his identity wouldn't concern me. He is not the only member of Amorc here. If my goal was to expose them all, I would be doing so constantly.

I appreciate your perspective,but the evidence I have, points decisively to deliberate intellectual dishonesty: posing as a pure atheist to mock others while being a paying member of an esoteric group that teaches a distorted version of. the very concepts he criticizes .

Use this link to visit this thread to see his performance there and come back and tell me if it is the behaviour of a confused person and not that of someone promoting and.defending what they believe in.

https://www.nairaland.com/4793988/mystical-life#72173050

Thanks for this explanation.

You've researched him, so I cannot know better than you about him. The link you provided in your response actually nailed your points. After promoting Amorc in some of his earliest posts, he still had posts where he promoted Amorc materials and vehemently defended his action when called out by readers. That's revealing.

Budaatum surely belongs to the cult but supports atheism in debates against Christians. I have every reason to believe this until he clears the air about this duplicity.

Meedon:
So it is humans that formed it from their imagination. But Otem revealed in his book that Yahweh does truly exist, but locked up in a prison.

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Well, Otem is mostly a person who dwells in fantasies and imagination.

However the idea that Yahweh is actually an Annukaki god comes from the theory of ancient aliens, beings who lived in another planet and came to Earth to mine gold particularly, to save their dying atmosphere. In this you will find Anu, Enki and Enlil, and the suggestion is that Yahweh is actually one of them.

All of these are entirely unproven and quite imaginary.

However Ancient Sumerian texts make it obvious that there has indeed been extra terrestrial intervention in the history of man.
So also do ancient Hindu texts.

budaatum:
FxMasterz, I am still patiently awaiting the evidence requested of you please, as I'm sure you wouldn't make wild unfounded accusations like triple does.

Thanks in advance.

https://www.nairaland.com/8566179/appeal-investigate-hidden-evidence-harassment/4#137588089

I apologize. I have mixed you up with sonmvayina. Sonmvayina was the one who speaks highly of Marduk and even believes spirit wives and husbands are good for humans. Not Buda.

My apologies.

DeepSight:
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Well, Otem is mostly a person who dwells in fantasies and imagination.

However the idea that Yahweh is actually an Annukaki god comes from the theory of ancient aliens, beings who lived in another planet and came to Earth to mine gold particularly, to save their dying atmosphere. In this you will find Anu, Enki and Enlil, and the suggestion is that Yahweh is actually one of them.

All of these are entirely unproven and quite imaginary.

However Ancient Sumerian texts make it obvious that there has indeed been extra terrestrial intervention in the history of man.
So also do ancient Hindu texts.

Do you believe in ET then?

Meedon:
Do you believe in ET then?

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It is unquestionably true that extra terrestrials exist and have also been in and around Earth for probably millions of years.

DeepSight:
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It is unquestionably true that extra terrestrials exist and have also been in and around Earth for probably millions of years.

I wish to see their UFO one day.

Meedon:
I wish to see their UFO one day.

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Many people have that wish, however they dont know if they can psychologically cope with such an experience.

There is the fear that humanity is not mature enough for the full reveal.

I would advise you to focus on your dreams at night.

If you get to the stage of lucid dreaming, you may be ripe enough for extra dimensional visitations and experiences.

FxMasterz:
I apologize. I have mixed you up with sonmvayina. Sonmvayina was the one who speaks highly of Marduk and even believes spirit wives and husbands are good for humans. Not Buda.

My apologies.

Thank you very much for this Sir. I did assume a mixup and just wanted it confirmed.

Respect.

I know you did not create the idea of caused and uncaused. It is the underpinning of just about every religion and ideology that has a creator, and I did mention Aristotle's 'unmoved mover', which is the same thing.

DeepSight:
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What is time and what created or caused it.

Time is the measure of the passing of periods.
Time it was created by human beings for that purpose of measurement.

Nothing caused time. Or rather, human need to measure caused humans to create time.

Please know that I suspect this is not the "time" you mean, but your question is no different to 'what is a ruler'. So, I suggest a rephrase.

FxMasterz:
Thanks for this explanation.

You've researched him, so I cannot know better than you about him. The link you provided in your response actually nailed your points. After promoting Amorc in some of his earliest posts, he still had posts where he promoted Amorc materials and vehemently defended his action when called out by readers. That's revealing.

Budaatum surely belongs to the cult but supports atheism in debates against Christians. I have every reason to believe this until he clears the air about this duplicity.

So. "promoted Amorc materials", makes you believe buda "belongs to the cult".

This must be how some peoples' minds must work I guess, as Triple's too works, but forgive me for not bothering to clear the air about your belief, since its your belief, which you are very free and entitled to believe if you wish.

FxMasterz:
You've researched him, so I cannot know better than you about him.

Interesting.

Personally, I like doing my own research so I may know, but I understand your need to believe.

budaatum:
I know you did not create the idea of caused and uncaused. It is the underpinning of just about every religion and ideology that has a creator, and I did mention Aristotle's 'unmoved mover', which is the same thing.



Time is the measure of the passing of periods.

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What caused periods then, if you like. Time is not a measure. Time is self existent and permanent, intangible. It is the void into which events are interpolated.

Time it was created by human beings for that purpose of measurement.

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Time was created by humans?

Nothing caused time.

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But you just said humans created time. Can you see the problem?

Or rather, human need to measure caused humans to create time.

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I trust you can see your confusion.

Please know that I suspect this is not the "time" you mean, but your question is no different to 'what is a ruler'. So, I suggest a rephrase.

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I refer to infinite and stagnant time which self exists and cannot but exist. In philosophy, it is a necessary thing, as opposed to a contingent thing.

budaatum:
So. "promoted Amorc materials", makes you believe buda "belongs to the cult".

This must be how some peoples' minds must work I guess, as Triple's too works, but forgive me for not bothering to clear the air about your belief, since its your belief, which you are very free and entitled to believe if you wish.

Can you answer my question?

There are many presidential candidates in Nigeria. If I promote Tinubu or anything that has to do with him, whom do you think I believe in among the available candidates?

DeepSight:
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Many people have that wish, however they dont know if they can psychologically cope with such an experience.

There is the fear that humanity is not mature enough for the full reveal.

I would advise you to focus on your dreams at night.

If you get to the stage of lucid dreaming, you may be ripe enough for extra dimensional visitations and experiences.

There was a time I meditate and I saw a very bright light. I was sitting on a chair and this light was around me and everywhere and I felt very happy in that state. I don't know if it's lucid dream.

FxMasterz:
I apologize. I have mixed you up with sonmvayina. Sonmvayina was the one who speaks highly of Marduk and even believes spirit wives and husbands are good for humans. Not Buda.

My apologies.

According to the Enuma Elish, which preceded the Bible by more than a thousand years says it was Marduk that slew the monster Tiamat and used her body to create heaven and earth.
After a comparative study, I discovered that the Jewish God is an equivalent of Marduk., just like it is also an equivalent of Olodumare and chineke. Same God different nomenclature.
When did I say spirit wives are good for humans. I said the best thing to do is to appease them and let them allow you enjoy your incarnation. Don't misquote me. If I did it must have been an oversight.

DeepSight:
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Ah well, if I was not mentioned, I would not even follow the discussion (which I have mostly skipped).

If I were you, I would ignore the conversation entirely.

If I I were triplechoice, I would not bother bringing it up.

End of.

Thanks for your fair and balanced assesment @Deepsight. I sincerely appreciate that you've approached this without taking sides

You're correct that ignoring the conversation would have been the simpler path. And under normal circumstances, that is exactly what I would have done. However, there is a reason I chose to reply this time

I've always valued clarity and intellectual honesty in discourse. I read English and so you can understand where I am coming from ..

I have been on this forum for long but never participated in any discussion,but just reading comments until 2018 when I was drawn to the writings of members like Sarassin,loj and yourself because of the respect and simplicity in your style. There was no pretense, no obfuscation, just straightforward, honest discussion. In a faceless forum where people can be anyone. The way a person writes reveals their true character.

This is why I finally decided not to ignore Buda' when he resurrected this issue after two years when we have both had several amicable discussions on other topics without quarreling

I believe he was counting on me to ignore him so he could continue to rewrite history unchallenged. You asked why I didn't just ignore him, It's a fair question. But why blame the person who screams when burned by a fire, and not the one who lit the match?

My goal was to end this cycle permanently. By confronting him directly and boxing him into a corner. I forced him to admit the very facts he had suppressed for over two years, the existence of the thread, its movement from its original location, and his role in promoting Amorc. I needed to defeat him in his own territory so he would have no grounds to revive this issue in the future

Yes, you're correct that this has been an unpleasant distraction. But sometimes to ensure a nuisance does not return, you must address it decisively. I believe I have done that now, and consider the matter closed. Everything that has happened after I chose to end the issue is the consequences of his foolish decision to revisit an issue he should forget.

Thank you again for your thoughtful perspective .

DeepSight:
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What caused periods then, if you like. Time is not a measure. Time is self existent and permanent, intangible. It is the void into which events are interpolated.

I do not agree that time is existent and permanent. Its why you yourself have considered replacing it with period.

I'd go further and claim "period" is a human invention, since it is something we measure from one point to another. Period is not a thing we create. We just measure it.

Its like claiming distance is existence and permanent, while in truth it is a measurement between 2 points.

A day is a period of time between two points too.

DeepSight:
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But you just said humans created time. Can you see the problem?

Yes, I said humans created time. And I mean its measurement between two points, and whatever time it is at any point in time.

I think you are conflating cause with create, which my pedantism would not allow me to do.

DeepSight:
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I refer to infinite and stagnant time which self exists and cannot but exist. In philosophy, it is a necessary thing, as opposed to a contingent thing.

Sorry, but time is not stagnant, and neither is it constant nor permanent. It is never 7pm forever, but will be minutes past if you wait long enough.

Lolz, the same buda? That one can't physically hurt a fly. i don't know much sha

budaatum:
I do not agree that time is existent and permanent. Its why you yourself have considered replacing it with period.

I did not replace it with "period." Read carefully.

I'd go further and claim "period" is a human invention, since it is something we measure from one point to another. Period is not a thing we create. We just measure it.

Its like claiming distance is existence and permanent, while in truth it is a measurement between 2 points.

A day is a period of time between two points too.

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Let me ask you the simplest of questions. Before humans existed, did days exist?

Before humans existed, did time exist?

Think really deeply before answering please.

Yes, I said humans created time. And I mean its measurement between two points, and whatever time it is at any point in time.

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Again, if you say humans created time, just think - did time exist before humans existed.

Yes or no.

I think you are conflating cause with create, which my pedantism would not allow me to do.

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In this discussion we are speaking about what brings something else to be, or makes something else move. Therefore there is no problem here, save that you instinctively rebel against the word "create" because you imagine it requires a creating being.

Sorry, but time is not stagnant, and neither is it constant nor permanent. It is never 7pm forever, but will be minutes past if you wait long enough.

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Where have you ever seen time moving? Is it not objects that move within time?

You know, if you really think time moves, just take a video of it moving, I want to check something.

FxMasterz:
Can you answer my question?

There are many presidential candidates in Nigeria. If I promote Tinubu or anything that has to do with him, whom do you think I believe in among the available candidates?

FxMasterz, if you promote a candidate, you are promoting a candidate, but if you [i]post manifestoes of all candidates, as opposed to promoting just one candidate, then I would personally consider my self føolish to think you are promoting any one candidate.

In fact, logic would tell me you are 'promoting' all candidates if anything, and I wouldn't then use the word "promote" to describe what you would have done. I definitely wouldn't claim you are a member of all the parties of all the candidates you supposedly promote. Would you?

triplechoice:
@Lordreed, let me start by sincerely thanking you once again. Your help in securing the screenshot was invaluable and demonstrated a commitment to getting to the truth,for which I am grateful.

This is why feel I need to address your latest comment. The statement ,"see how they are falling over themselves to describe you", shifts the focus away from the substance of the issue and into a realm of personal drama in favour of the other party.


I had hope you would continue in your role as a neutral judge. A fair judgement would ask why the evidence of "advertising" Amorc was withheld for so long, not celebrate the confusion that withholding it caused. Your comment, while perhaps meant in jest, unfortunately makes light of the very deception that was the heart of the problem.

When we debate, I expect the person on the other side to be genuine. Buda refused to do that. He chose to operate behind a disguise to mock and discredit others. That is the core of the issue.

A truthful person with nothing to hide does not withhold exonerating evidence for two years. A truthful person does not secretly bump a thread to a new location and then stay silent when they are accused of deleting it, all to create confusion. He only produced the "evidence" when he was boxed into a corner in this thread. His actions prove his dishonesty.


My goal here on this thread was never to simply "describe" Budaatum. The core of this matter has always been, and remains, a single, demonstrable act of intellectual dishonesty: the deliberate suppression of evidence for two years, only admitting to it when cornered. This is a matter of a action and principle, not an obsession with his online personality.

But to now make a statement that implicitly excuses the dishonesty at the core of this quarrel is, itself taking a side. And I am not saying I am a completely honest person, nobody is.But too much of everything is bad.

And once again, I am not confused and "falling over" to describe Budaatum . I understand the tactics of misdirection and disguise, often employed for self-preservation. My issue was never his affiliation,but his decision to extend that deception to our interactions.

This is why I have decided to disengage. It is futile to seek honest discourse with someone who operates this way, and it is equally futile to debate the principles of honesty with those who would joke them away.

I only blame myself for not ignoring him the first time. He's not the only one here I can interact with so why should I bother myself.

I chose to stand on a point of principle. I have made my case. I now choose to step away. Thank you again for your initial help

I have to confess that I am somewhat biased. I love budaatum even though we don't always agree. Budaatum is the most eclectic person I have interacted with. In all my interactions with budaatum I never see any reticence about sharing knowledge of any sort. I was very much aware when budaatum started that AMORC thread, in fact we even discussed my own brush with AMORC. Budaatum has always shared knowledge at any opportunity to do so. So the way your accusation came and the way others are describing budaatum is amusing to me. However, I do respect you and I always treat what you say to me with due seriousness that is why I put aside my love for budaatum and listened to you with an open mind. I even said to budaatum that it is possible you are just misunderstanding. Maybe it's my bias but I never see any malice in budaatum's interactions, same way I see you but you obviously don't have to interact with anyone you don't want to.

LordReed:
I have to confess that I am somewhat biased. I love budaatum even though we don't always agree. Budaatum is the most eclectic person I have interacted with. In all my interactions with budaatum I never seen any any reticence about sharing knowledge of any sort. I was very much aware when budaatum started that thread, in fact we even discussed my own brush with AMORC. Budaatum has always shared knowledge at any opportunity to do so. So the way your accusation came and the way others are describing budaatum is amusing to me. However I do respect you and I always treat what you say to me with due seriousness that is why I put aside my love for budaatum and listened to you with an open mind. I even said to budaatum that it is possible you are just misunderstanding. Maybe it's my bias but I never see any malice in budaatum's interactions, same way I see you but you obviously don't have to interact with anyone you don't want to.

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To add to this, the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, is not anything anyone should be wary of. It is one of the orders for the search for deep esoteric knowledge. By the nature of such societies, much is kept hidden but revealed as one advances. I have not just had a brush with it, but even considered being initiated. I frankly see little wrong with it save some tendencies which suggest the superiority and inferiority of races - which everyone knows I am allergic to. When I was doing my NYSC, I was introduced to it by a gentleman who was a client of the firm I was attached to. There is much that is enlightened about it. Much.

Therefore I also see not particular reason to hang Budatuum even if he is an open AMORC person. I myself have also associated with Eckankar, which has some levels of similarity.

What I can see from the issues raised by Triplechoice is simple. He suspects Buda of being duplicitous and dishonest. That may well be true, but I have no idea and it is not my concern. Generally I consider the entire subject unimportant and somewhat petty.

Buda, like many of us, may just be a seeker for truth and be as confused as every honest seeker of truth is.

DeepSight:
I did not replace it with "period." Read carefully.
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Let me ask you the simplest of questions. Before humans existed, did days exist?

A period of time that humans eventually decided were days existed. Time itself did not exist, since time is our own human measurement of the period of time that passed in a day.

DeepSight:
Before humans existed, did time exist?

No. Deep, time did not exist before humans existed.

Time is a measurement of a period of time as measured by us humans, and which we did not even start measuring till relatively recent.

DeepSight:
Think really deeply before answering please.

Kindly do not insult me! I always think deeply.

DeepSight:
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Again, if you say humans created time, just think - did time exist before humans existed.

Yes or no.

Read above please. It is not a yes or no answer.

DeepSight:
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In this discussion we are speaking about what brings something else to be, or makes something else move. Therefore there is no problem here, save that you instinctively rebel against the word "create" because you imagine it requires a creating being.

Sorry, but I think you are entering the low blow position with your "save that you instinctively rebel".

A thing that is created requires a creator. You have even provided one and called it the "uncaused cause", though I insist you conflate create with cause.

You might as well call it the "uncreated creator", just like Aristotle called his the "unmoved mover".

Do correct me however. Did your uncaused cause not create?

DeepSight:
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Where have you ever seen time moving? Is it not objects that move within time?

I have just finished a meeting that began at 7pm. Its not 8pm. A period of time of an hour passed, and that passed time is a sort of movement from one point in time (7pm) to another (8pm).

It was not still 7pm when the meeting finished, because the time at the end was 8pm.

DeepSight:
You know, if you really think time moves, just take a video of it moving, I want to check something.

Are you seriously asking me to record a video of the exact time now, which can't possibly be a video but a photo, or should the video be for a period of time of say 10 minutes starting now and ending 10 minutes afterwards?

Surely, you can do either for yourself if you really do want to check something, no?

LordReed:
I have to confess that I am somewhat biased. I love budaatum even though we don't always agree. Budaatum is the most eclectic person I have interacted with. In all my interactions with budaatum I never see any reticence about sharing knowledge of any sort. I was very much aware when budaatum started that AMORC thread, in fact we even discussed my own brush with AMORC. Budaatum has always shared knowledge at any opportunity to do so. So the way your accusation came and the way others are describing budaatum is amusing to me. However, I do respect you and I always treat what you say to me with due seriousness that is why I put aside my love for budaatum and listened to you with an open mind. I even said to budaatum that it is possible you are just misunderstanding. Maybe it's my bias but I never see any malice in budaatum's interactions, same way I see you but you obviously don't have to interact with anyone you don't want to.

This is nonsense, my Lord. Malice intended!

Be objective and completely put aside your bias and love please!

Did buda promote AMORC to you?