₦airaland Forum

MarkMiwerds:
concerning the man who was told to sell everything, it is important to notice that Jesus did not tell him to give ten percent of the money... No, He told him to give it all to the poor.

The pro-tithe crowd can't explain that one away.

trustman:
Image123
Others have largely answered you on issues raised in your post so there's no need to repeat what they've said.

Like most, if not all, of us on my side of the divide have made clear, we are not against any Christian deciding how to give. What we are against (and is EVIL) is the lie that the Christian today IS STILL MANDATED to tithe.

(Like is common with you guys, you just took the word 'evil' from my write up, looked for a passage where it appeared and then use that to talk. Biblical interpretation doesn't work like that)

The Christian is FREE to choose how to give. That is the liberty into which Christ has put us. Those who claim tithing is mandated and threaten the Christian with hell are PUTTING A YOKE OF BONDAGE on Christians. That is evil. 
Those who MONITOR the individual believer's giving fall into the same category. That is LEGALISM.

Look at what Peter told Ananias in Acts 5:
"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Obviously this was a clear opportunity for Peter to have talked about tithing. How come he missed it out?

So, again, what we are against IS NOT giving by the Christian. What we are against is the yoke of bondage put on believers by leaders who should know better. 

Zikkyy:
Image123 is using version of the bible written by his pastor with input from image123 himself. This version contains evidence Jerome & Luke taught tithe.

adeshola1:
Matthew 22:21....Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar & give to God want belongs to God..... Hmm....why are some of u robbing God because of greed and wrong interpretation of Scriptures.

The Bible isn't a book we have to interprete with our head as some of us as doing here but we need guidance of the Holy Spirit..

Remember... 1day..All of us will give account.of our lives & don't say someone didn't warn you about this..

PAY YOUR TITHE

chysam:
in a very clear explanation,tell us (That is if you know),why Jesus and his followers of old did not pay nor receive tithe.Of what effect was the curse in Malachi on them? A 21st century pastor take tithing so serious,yet as great as he thinks that command "was",Jesus said it has no weight.Please what lesson should a mordern day christian learn from christ and his followers?.Who must we obey,Jesus or 2wst century pastors? Please explain.

Image123:
Are you kidding? The man said he had kept the commandments from his youth. Of course, he would have being giving offerings and tithes. Why tithe what you have already tithed. Again, tithing is not as important as you would wish. The man was asking about eternal life and you think Jesus should have told him about giving 10%, ridiculous.

MarkMiwerds:
the commandments said tithes were agricultural. He would not have been tithing money.

We've been through this before, Image123. You cannot accept the written Word of God. It is foolishness to you because you have been conditioned to believe a lie.

Twist as you might, you cannot prove a monetary tithe given to Tabernacle, Temple or Church.

MarkMiwerds:
It is not me who is hiding.

No, the rich young ruler would not have already tithed of all his possessions before he sold them. He would have tithed off of what the Law required... Agricultural products.

But regardless, once he sold all, he would have an increase of money he previously did not have. And did the Law say tithe was to be off of increase? Yes, it did. But the Law went further than just saying tithe of increase... it clarified that the increase it was referring in regards to the required tithe was to be agricultural.

Of course, the deceitful monetary tithe requirement teachers and their defenders refuse to accept the truth as it is given by the Word of God.

Image123:
You Mark are one bigoted ridiculous extremist. We've being through all these joke severally.


Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mark 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

One doesn't compulsorily or automatically sell possessions at a gain, in fact that would border on miraculous favor. Again simple logic. If I possess 100barleys of crop, i tithe and have 90barleys left. If i sell my possession to come follow Jesus, that's all. The purpose of the tithe was already fulfilled. Stop this madness of crying more than the bereaved.

Image123:
Rather, nobody should look down on those of us that tithe. That is what all the antitithers here do.



The Scripture does not support humans sacrificing humans. There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that tithing was never practiced at all.



Then you people need to stop asserting that Jesus never tithed. It keeps repeating itself, and when you are logically shown the possibility and Jesus'commendation of the tithe, you resort to the under the law line. If i debunk this again, i know your next line. This cycle has happened too many times already. i sincerely do not know why any knowledgeable person would ASSERT and insist that Jesus never gave tithes, or His disciples. When you assert it, there is no way one would not come up with bible passages like Matthew 23 which show the possibility. On ex-lepers, who told you that nobody today offers animal sacrifices after they have been healed? how do you come to such a claim? How many people have you seen healed, and how do you know what they gave or did not give? You have started again with unfounded assertions.


Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

If that is the one thing i lacked, i would practice it. This passage remains a well taught passage today in churches. Of course one needs to understand the passage instead of just brashly brushing it aside with logic.

comrChris:
just bear it in mind that you will account for any soul you are able to deceive concerning tithe with this your post

Actually you need the spirit of God if truelly you are a christian

Remember no pastor has ever forced his/her members to pay tithe,it is a things of the spirit,so therefor if you see it as afraud from your pastor to you then stop giving but stop deceiving peoples here but remember the bible instructed us not lean on our own understanding,your arguement here has been on your own understanding instead of the spirit

Thanks

comrChris:
just bear it in mind that you will account for any soul you are able to deceive concerning tithe with this your post

Actually you need the spirit of God if truelly you are a christian

Remember no pastor has ever forced his/her members to pay tithe,it is a things of the spirit,so therefor if you see it as afraud from your pastor to you then stop giving but stop deceiving peoples here but remember the bible instructed us not lean on our own understanding,your arguement here has been on your own understanding instead of the spirit

Thanks

adeshola1:
Matthew 22:21....Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar & give to God want belongs to God..... Hmm....why are some of u robbing God because of greed and wrong interpretation of Scriptures.

The Bible isn't a book we have to interprete with our head as some of us as doing here but we need guidance of the Holy Spirit..

Remember... 1day..All of us will give account.of our lives & don't say someone didn't warn you about this..

PAY YOUR TITHE

comrChris:
just bear it in mind that you will account for any soul you are able to deceive concerning tithe with this your post

Actually you need the spirit of God if truelly you are a christian

Remember no pastor has ever forced his/her members to pay tithe,it is a things of the spirit,so therefor if you see it as afraud from your pastor to you then stop giving but stop deceiving peoples here but remember the bible instructed us not lean on our own understanding,your arguement here has been on your own understanding instead of the spirit

Thanks

MarkMiwerds:
Actually, many do "force their members to pay tithe." Many use the same type of tactics the pastor in this clip used...


And because many don't study their Bibles as they should, they fearfully yield to the pastor's threats of curses.

vooks:
Tithers are the ones who proclaim curses on anti tithers and gloat over 'open heavens' breakthroughs and harvest anti tithers willMEVER walk in. You have examples of people questioning tithing being excommunicated. In short ant-tithers are persecuted more than Tithers.

There is SUFFICIENT evidence of the early/primitive church giving both on and off scriptures to allow us to conclude what they practiced. This is not an argument from silence. We know they gave and were exhorted to give freely without any benchmarks such as 10%. It is dishonest to deny history especially when it does not favor you. Tithing,Christmas,infant baptism were all introduced into Christianity hundreds of years AFTER Pentecost.

Jesus is depicted as a carpenter's son and as such he could not have tithed if carpentry is all he did because tithes were agricultural and not income. Scriptures say so and so does history; Jews tithed agricultural produce from Israel alone so somebody not in agriculture vocation such as a carpenter or a tax collector was not eligible to tithe.

Image123, this is personal. Would you prescribe animal offerings of somebody who God miraculously healed? Jesus did just that and you would be following His example. The fact of the matter is you would NEVER. For once there are no priests to confirm the leprosy is gone nor to offer the sacrifices on his behalf. So this is a perfect example of a command Jesus gave yet it is not applicable to you or me. In the same way, you can't claim that Jesus is telling you to tithe because he told some Jews/Pharisees to tithe. Do you understand this point?

About selling all you have, am glad you find the CONDITION for doing it, it is not a universal command EXCEPT that be the only thing you are lacking. Similarly, the tithing injunction is not universal except you be a Pharisee. So how comes you insist on context when it comes to the selling of all you have yet you are totally ignorant of the context Jesus told the Pharisees to tithe? And do you note they were tithing BEFORE Jesus told them to? He asked them to add to their tithing other Weightier things of the law so as to keep it in the fullest

Image123:
i'm a tither, and i said that Anybody can decide what he wants to do with his income. . i know some other tithers, sorry for mentioning your names like Olaadegbu, Gombs, Alwaystrue, Bidam, and some others. i'm supposing nlmediator and nannymcphee would be tithers. i do not know how many of them including me, that you can point to or show that they proclaim curses on antitithers. Unfortunately, my post that you are replying remains true in its saying that antitithers look down on those of us that tithe. That is what all the antitithers here do.





Can you tell us then what Peter gave after Pentecost till death? At least, you claim to have SUFFICIENT evidence of the early/primitive church giving both on and off scriptures to allow us to conclude what they practiced. My point is you can't tell anybody of a surety that somebody never gave a tenth whether then or now. You are not God. Believers give to God, and only Him reserves that right to conclude what anybody gave or is giving. you can't sit in some room with some softwares and internet and conclude sufficiently what happened about 2000years ago. It was not written and you cannot assert to know.




The Scribes and pharisees were said to have tithed, Jesus said so Himself. If Scribes who are more literate and 'office' jobs than capentry are tithing, nothing stops Jesus the carpenter's son from not tithing. Former Nigerian President Obasanjo was a military man and also a known farmer. Being a carpenter is not mutually exclusive to farming as to assert that Jesus could not have tithed. i'm aware of many graduates and workers in Nigeria who have farms, fish farms, piggery, poultry etc. What then is so special and remote to anybody in an agrarian economy having a farm or garden? Now, by the way, there is no viable document or fact that says that Jews tithed agricultural produce from Israel alone. Or that some people are not eligible to tithe. It is not written anywhere in the Bible but a product of the antitither's imagination.



Good to see you left your unfounded assertions about what people being healed give God. i'm not in a position to prescribe what anybody gives God, but not to belabour you, here is the passage in question.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

You can see that Jesus did not prescribe animal offerings for the leper's cleansing. The leper was already cleansed. He was to offer what needed to be done for him to be integrated back into society. He had to meet the priests and be declared fit to cohabit with others. Jesus wasn't going to break the laws of the land as they did not contradict God's laws. In the same vein, i would prescribe that all christians be subject to authority and to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not contradict the laws of God. this is a very applicable scripture and i would be following Jesus'example that way. Following Jesus doesn't mean you have to go live in Galilee or have twelve men going around with you, or wear white robes or speaking KJV english, or going into the wilderness for 40days and nights. It's more than that. May God give you understanding.


Context.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

i know the next line on this BTW, it would most likely come from Mark or one of his cohorts.

vooks:
Your opinion on tithing on NL is least from practice. Tithing is a doctrine not propagated but on NL but churches. So here you are free to whitewash your doctrine to make it acceptable. If you have never heard of Malachi curses threatened on tithers except on NL you may as well be living on Mars
Is Malachi invoked in YOUR church? Do they mention the curses as well? Do you believe the curse of non-tithing recorded there are applicable to those who don't tithe? Answer these as faithfully

Peter as a Jew offered his tithe to Levites. There are many things not recorded about Jesus. We build faith and doctrines on what is recorded. You need to study Jewish history to understand that Jews NEVER tithed nothing not agricultural. So history and scriptures are against income tithes. [s]History is stubborn. God can't change history; it is cast not in stone but steel.[/s] For once what historical records do you have showing you Jews tithed outside agriculture? Start with Josephus. This is not conjecture but hard facts.

Pharisees and scribes may have been schooled but Jesus wondered at their meticulous tithing of spices! Spices are as agricultural. The parables of rich people who hired stewards or labourers. They certainly never farmed but they were farmers. Is this too hard to digest? About Jesus tithing, this is speculative based on what we know. Jesus father was a carpenter and most certainly Jesus too. The point is, if all Jesus did was carpentry, he was not obligated to tithe. Either side of the argument who push it beyond this are insincere. Got it?

Jesus told the man to offer a gift. The gift was what Moses prescribed and the point is not to imagine the purpose of the gift but that Jesus referred a man back to Torah. That does not apply to Christians NOW yet Jesus commanded the man. So this is an incidence of Jesus a man under the Law demonstrating reverence for the Law yet Christisns would NEVER offer animal sacrifices prescribed. Same case with the tithing verse, your only hope. Very desperate people.
Note these were not 'laws of the land' but Law of Moses. Read Leviticus 14:2-32 to understand that this was a Command from Yahweh Himself

Image123:
i'm a tither, and i said that Anybody can decide what he wants to do with his income. . i know some other tithers, sorry for mentioning your names like Olaadegbu, Gombs, Alwaystrue, Bidam, and some others. i'm supposing nlmediator and nannymcphee would be tithers. i do not know how many of them including me, that you can point to or show that they proclaim curses on antitithers. Unfortunately, my post that you are replying remains true in its saying that antitithers look down on those of us that tithe. That is what all the antitithers here do.





Can you tell us then what Peter gave after Pentecost till death? At least, you claim to have SUFFICIENT evidence of the early/primitive church giving both on and off scriptures to allow us to conclude what they practiced. My point is you can't tell anybody of a surety that somebody never gave a tenth whether then or now. You are not God. Believers give to God, and only Him reserves that right to conclude what anybody gave or is giving. you can't sit in some room with some softwares and internet and conclude sufficiently what happened about 2000years ago. It was not written and you cannot assert to know.




The Scribes and pharisees were said to have tithed, Jesus said so Himself. If Scribes who are more literate and 'office' jobs than capentry are tithing, nothing stops Jesus the carpenter's son from not tithing. Former Nigerian President Obasanjo was a military man and also a known farmer. Being a carpenter is not mutually exclusive to farming as to assert that Jesus could not have tithed. i'm aware of many graduates and workers in Nigeria who have farms, fish farms, piggery, poultry etc. What then is so special and remote to anybody in an agrarian economy having a farm or garden? Now, by the way, there is no viable document or fact that says that Jews tithed agricultural produce from Israel alone. Or that some people are not eligible to tithe. It is not written anywhere in the Bible but a product of the antitither's imagination.



Good to see you left your unfounded assertions about what people being healed give God. i'm not in a position to prescribe what anybody gives God, but not to belabour you, here is the passage in question.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

You can see that Jesus did not prescribe animal offerings for the leper's cleansing. The leper was already cleansed. He was to offer what needed to be done for him to be integrated back into society. He had to meet the priests and be declared fit to cohabit with others. Jesus wasn't going to break the laws of the land as they did not contradict God's laws. In the same vein, i would prescribe that all christians be subject to authority and to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not contradict the laws of God. this is a very applicable scripture and i would be following Jesus'example that way. Following Jesus doesn't mean you have to go live in Galilee or have twelve men going around with you, or wear white robes or speaking KJV english, or going into the wilderness for 40days and nights. It's more than that. May God give you understanding.


Context.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

i know the next line on this BTW, it would most likely come from Mark or one of his cohorts.

Image123:
Don't be unreasonable. i have been on NL for many years talking about and explaining the tithe. So also have some of the people i mentioned earlier. Our posts are available for perusal. i do not know how many of them including me, that you can point to or show that they proclaim curses on antitithers. They say charity begins at home. This is a medium for discussion, and i usually say that all doctrines, passages and bible teachings have their abuses and misuses. It's unreasonable to be reactive rather than proactive. You should behave and respond chiefly based on what the Bible says, or at least what the principal/primary/fellow discussants are saying or doing. Instead, you and most of the others would rather react on some fellow or story somewhere that is not directly reachable. And you would most times commit the fallacy of stereotyping all tithers under the same alleged practice/teaching/belief. i'm interested in what the Bible says, not in what your pastor or neighbour's pastor says.
Malachi is scriptures and anybody is free to read them anywhere. ALL Scriptures remain inspired by God and profitable. No human has a right to cut off any part of scriptures or discourage others from reading or using it. At least, thank God that one is in the new testament Bible.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Any baby christian should understand that we are in the period of the 'new' covenant. One major character of that covenant is GRACE that came through Jesus according to John. That grace is so exceeding that it delivers man from judgement, at least judgement is not as instant as it was in the OT. While in the OT, a murderer or rebellious child was killed, in the NT there is GRACE and that person can be forgiven and repent. We don't say oh we are in the NT and Killing and rebellion are now okay. While the judgement is restrained as it were, the commandment or precept is still valid. It is same thing or thereabout with the tithe.
Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.




The point here is, do not EVER assert again that Jesus or His disciples NEVER tithed. That is one of the lies antitithers peddle around to trip the unwary. Jewish history says NOTHING about non agricultural tithes being invalid. Jesus Himself referred to a pharisee that tithed of ALL that he possessed. It wasn't rocket science or conjectures, it was history.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.



You are pushing towards unreasonable. Antithers usually insist that only farmers tithe and that Jesus wasn't one. The Bible shows that scribes tithed, rulers tithed, pharisees tithed. What is so remote as to assert that Jesus NEVER tithed. Perhaps Sadducees never tithed too, since it is not specifically mentioned? [size=13pt]There is no viable document or fact that says that Jews tithed agricultural produce from Israel alone. Or that some people are not eligible to tithe. It is not written anywhere in the Bible but a product of the antitither's imagination.[/size]




We are not imagining the purpose of the gift, it is written in the scriptures. Go and read them. The leper had to go to the priest for CLEANSING and to be INTEGRATED back into society. Jesus had OBVIOUSLY cleansed the leper in question. All he had to go do with the priest was for integration into the community. He was to offer for a testimony unto them, not to be cleansed. If you lived in Israel as a leper, Jesus would tell you the same thing. Christians should be subject to authority. Jesus paid tribute and the apostles wrote to believers to submit to authority. Paul was a christian and he offered sacrifices when he went to the temple. Peter and John regarded the temple's hour of prayer. They were not renegades or seditious. You have a lot of ignorance that i tolerate so stop all this assertiveness about NEVERs, you know not that much as to say NEVER.

Image123:
Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

vooks:
You may want to start by circumcising your ..... because it is your own and it won't be evil in our eyes

That's how absurd you sound

Image123:
You do realize that is not just my word but God's? It really is more than a debate, don't take it as one.

vooks:
You do realize that Paul commended Jews ZEAL for God but prayed for them for the same was not according to KNOWLEDGE?
They had the Law, prophets,revelation, Messiah in the flesh but......
I'd rather an atheist any time than a professional theological acrobat who will quote anything to prop weak traditions of men