Bidam:
And where did my post mentioned cash?....if really you are not the dishonest fellow i thought you were, you would have seen where i mentioned other things aside money to vooks in my previous posts? I don't want to go into long verbal exchanges with your typical chocking eisegesis here. I don't have the luxury of that time pls. 
Is prayer compulsory? So what do you give in your local assembly? Your shoe,your belt,your wallet or your self or wife?
Very funny and rich coming from a dubious fellow like you. I do not have that luxury for lengthy exchanges..am quite busy of late. You can see my posts are limited of recent unlike you and your co-travellers. I had to sacrifice today to attend to all these mentions.if am not available to reply most of your posts doesn't mean i ran away. Just that duty calls. 
Maybe...if that will make you sleep better. You are busy attacking me now rather than talk about Malachi abi? 
It is better folks like you go study more, rather than waste time on websites looking for answers. I am not your teacher, the Holy Spirit is, a good piece of advise that you should take in good faith rather than raising "airs" here.

Na you sabi! Who is fond of merry go round here? I believe viewers can judge. Evn Jesus did not answer some "foolish questions" asked by the pharisees, the Son of Man went on with his teachings. Paul even says to avoid them. Folks can do best if left unanswered so they can search the truth for themselves.
Jesus is truth.We do nothing against the truth but for the truth.DO YOU KNOW THE TRUTH?

You did exactly the same thing I mentioned again!
Whao!
I hope you're not irredeemable.

gebest:
that is to say i shud stop paying tithe abi?

payment of tithe is not for christians, Jesus, Paul, Petter, James, Philip Timothy other apostles and early christians even modern jewish christians did not/do not pay/collect tithes in any form, why should you?

MarkMiwerds:
Proverbs 22:16 (KJV) 16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his [riches, and] he that giveth to the rich, [shall] surely [come] to want.

Amen. Ironically you're quoting the old testament to threaten me. Try giving to God.

Bidam:

Haba! Zikkyy why are you this mishievious. Paul actually made them anticipate a "reward" for their gifts.

He made them anticipate a "reward" long after the act of giving was concluded. I don't see how this impact on their decision to send the gift (probably packaged and delivered like a month or two before they got Paul's letter). This cannot be Paul's intention.

Oga Bidam, if you love me so much and decides to give me an Helicopter, and in showing my appreciation tell you that God will reward you for ya gift. Are you really going to interpret that as making you to anticipate a "reward" for ya gift?

Bidam:

Stop reading into the text. The bible says "lend" in that verse and not "give".. There is a clear diff between verse 35 and Luke 6 verse 38. Lend is not the same as give..this is simple english na haba!

What's the difference?

"34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full."

What do you call lending without expecting repayment? is that not giving?

Bidam:

Ok, lets take the widow of zarephat as an example..Did Elijah not make her anticipate a "reward" even before she ministered to him?

I don't want to consider this cos it's OT.

Image123:


Amen. Ironically you're quoting the old testament to threaten me. Try giving to God.

interesting... So you are admitting

1. You oppress the poor to increase your riches

or

2. You foolishly give your money to a rich pastor

Zikkyy:


He made them anticipate a "reward" long after the act of giving was concluded. I don't see how this impact on their decision to send the gift (probably packaged and delivered like a month or two before they got Paul's letter). This cannot be Paul's intention.

You still fail to see that anyone reading it will understand that the giving is based on reciprocality. And it does not run contrary to acts that are "love driven".

Oga Bidam, if you love me so much and decides to give me an Helicopter, and in showing my appreciation tell you that God will reward you for ya gift. Are you really going to interpret that as making you to anticipate a "reward" for ya gift?

It goes beyond dashing a heli...Look at the verse closely. Paul was talking as if he was closely seeing God smelling the sacrifices of the philipians..He used an OT analogy for that which you are even trying to run away from discussing. Last time i checked it was burnt offerings that ascends to God as "SWEET SMELLING SACRIFICES".

As for you thanking some one for a gift and saying God bless is a far different issue from the statement of Paul to the philippians.The philippians do not just threw the gifts at Paul as if it was an alms giving or he was a begger. They perceived the grace of God on his life as an Apostle and were willing to partner with him.

Zikkyy:


What's the difference?

"34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full."

What do you call lending without expecting repayment? is that not giving?

Lend hoping for nothing in return is found in Leviticus 25:37...It doesn't mean that christian giving is to be without expecting anything in return.

Luke 6:38 says Give and it shall be given unto you.

Vs 35...says lend hoping for nothing again.

They are not the same thing.

I don't want to consider this cos it's OT.

Then your case is hopelessly pathetic.Do you read the OT or not?

MarkMiwerds:
interesting... So you are admitting

1. You oppress the poor to increase your riches

or

2. You foolishly give your money to a rich pastor

Read again. i admit you're quoting the old testament
to threaten me. You're no much different from those you condemn for using Malachi to threaten others, only poorer perhaps.

Image123:


Read again. i admit you're quoting the old testament
to threaten me. You're no much different from those you condemn for using Malachi to threaten others, only poorer perhaps.

I didn't threaten you. I posted a verse showing foolish choices. Giving to the rich and taking from the poor.

An act you defend.

MarkMiwerds:
It wouldn't be so contentious if preachers would stop preaching that we are robbing God and cursed if we fail to tithe our money.

For the preacher who is benefiting from the teaching of the monetary tithe, the less cookies in the cookie jar, the more belligerent he becomes with his deceitful doctrine.

ouch! i think that is extreme. then again, na naija, and I have seen pastors try to guilt people in to doing things . na wa o. As far as I know, tithing is an opportunity not an obligation. To each his own I guess.

MarkMiwerds:
I didn't threaten you. I posted a verse showing foolish choices. Giving to the rich and taking from the poor.

An act you defend.

If you didn't threaten me, then 'Malachi preachers' aren't threatening. They're just reading verses. See your life for outside? You're being hypocritical and double tongued. i defend giving to God, which is what every tithe and offering should be.

Many believers know the truth in all this? And many don't but chose to believe the lie. There are too many false prophets, aiming to deceive the elect. I also have heard that some preachers in churches have taken the tithing lie to a higher level, not only a 10% tithing, but many are now asking for the 11% taxes to be paid also. In some countries, they had made it the law for everyone of the land to pay taxes in churches, as well as their tithe. We hear more on the tithing scrams from these con-merchants, more then we hear about any other crimes committed within the churches. And else where?

birdman:
considering how long this thread has been going, I wonder if I am missing something. Im getting the vibe that Nigerians have taken tithing to another level, resulting in backlash by some christians. Why is such a simple issue so contentious?

Image123:


If you didn't threaten me, then 'Malachi preachers' aren't threatening. They're just reading verses. See your life for outside? You're being hypocritical and double tongued. i defend giving to God, which is what every tithe and offering should be.

not being hypocritical at all. I quoted a verse of wisdom. Totally different than a preacher lying to his congregation, telling them God requires tithe of money or they are cursed.

Image123:


If you didn't threaten me, then 'Malachi preachers' aren't threatening. They're just reading verses. See your life for outside? You're being hypocritical and double tongued. i defend giving to God, which is what every tithe and offering should be.

The Christian of today (Image123 note) needs to know that not every directive in the OT pertains to him or is to be observed by him. 
He therefore needs to know which directive still applies to him in the church age and which one doesn't. 
A quick start is to see if the Apostles have anything to say about it. 
 
So, when it comes to GIVING what can the Christian glean from the lives and writings of the NT to Christians. 
Is it anything like we find in the OT, which had varied forms of giving whether pre-law or after the Law was given, or is it something completely different. 
What objective conclusion can the Christian come to?

One of the conclusions today's Christian can easily come to is that the NT has enough to say about the Christian's relationship with the OT. 
Another conclusion he can arrive at is that KEY issues relating to the Christian way of life are spelt out in the NT. Believers are now under the New Covenant of Grace, and are subject neither to pre-law customs, such as in Abraham’s day, nor the ordinances of Mosaic Law. 

One of the key things regarding Christian GIVING is that it is to be a gracious response to the grace of God the Christian has experienced. There is no compulsion in it. There is NO DEMAND placed on the Christian to give. He can choose what to give. He can equally decide HOW to give. Christian giving IS NOT . No burden is placed on the Christian regarding giving. 

Therefore, when a church directs,insists manipulates OR COERCES members to give (whether it is freewill offering or tithe) that makes it anti grace. 
In the same vein when a Christian gives apart from a grace expression he is giving with a wrong motive and that giving is also anti grace. 

Sadly much of what goes for giving and tithing today fall under acts done with wrong motives and do not fall in line with the NT prescription for giving. Tithing in particular is propagated through coercion. What you find is a resort to the OT to justify it when NO SINGLE word in the New even suggests it for the Christian. 
For majority of those who tithe, if they are to be honest with themselves and open to others, their reasons for tithing is either to escape a possible negative consequence which is driven by fear (fear of some physical loss, loss of heaven, etc), or on the other hand a belief that God can be made (tricked?) to give back a physical reward to the giver. None of these is a genuine motivation to give. 

Those principles in the law still required for today are certainly found in the New Testament epistles. And in the epistles we find that tithing, like Sabbath observance and animal sacrifices, is never imposed on the believer. To the extent that tithing IS NOT PRESCRIBED ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES we can safely say that it is no longer compulsory for the Christian today.

To insist that the Christian (not the Jew or Israel) is required to pay tithe today when no portion of the Bible states so is a great perversion of scripture. To seek through all kinds of gimmicks to force the believer to do that which God himself has not stated is nothing but downright EVIL.

MarkMiwerds:
not being hypocritical at all. I quoted a verse of wisdom. Totally different than a preacher lying to his congregation, telling them God requires tithe of money or they are cursed.

Oh, Malachi is not a verse of wisdom when quoted? Cherry picking.

trustman:


The Christian of today (Image123 note) needs to know that not every directive in the OT pertains to him or is to be observed by him. 
He therefore needs to know which directive still applies to him in the church age and which one doesn't. 
A quick start is to see if the Apostles have anything to say about it. 
 
So, when it comes to GIVING what can the Christian glean from the lives and writings of the NT to Christians. 
Is it anything like we find in the OT, which had varied forms of giving whether pre-law or after the Law was given, or is it something completely different. 
What objective conclusion can the Christian come to?

One of the conclusions today's Christian can easily come to is that the NT has enough to say about the Christian's relationship with the OT. 
Another conclusion he can arrive at is that KEY issues relating to the Christian way of life are spelt out in the NT. Believers are now under the New Covenant of Grace, and are subject neither to pre-law customs, such as in Abraham’s day, nor the ordinances of Mosaic Law. 

One of the key things regarding Christian GIVING is that it is to be a gracious response to the grace of God the Christian has experienced. There is no compulsion in it. There is NO DEMAND placed on the Christian to give. He can choose what to give. He can equally decide HOW to give. Christian giving IS NOT . No burden is placed on the Christian regarding giving. 

Therefore, when a church directs,insists manipulates OR COERCES members to give (whether it is freewill offering or tithe) that makes it anti grace. 
In the same vein when a Christian gives apart from a grace expression he is giving with a wrong motive and that giving is also anti grace. 

Sadly much of what goes for giving and tithing today fall under acts done with wrong motives and do not fall in line with the NT prescription for giving. Tithing in particular is propagated through coercion. What you find is a resort to the OT to justify it when NO SINGLE word in the New even suggests it for the Christian. 
For majority of those who tithe, if they are to be honest with themselves and open to others, their reasons for tithing is either to escape a possible negative consequence which is driven by fear (fear of some physical loss, loss of heaven, etc), or on the other hand a belief that God can be made (tricked?) to give back a physical reward to the giver. None of these is a genuine motivation to give. 

Those principles in the law still required for today are certainly found in the New Testament epistles. And in the epistles we find that tithing, like Sabbath observance and animal sacrifices, is never imposed on the believer. To the extent that tithing IS NOT PRESCRIBED ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EPISTLES we can safely say that it is no longer compulsory for the Christian today.

To insist that the Christian (not the Jew or Israel) is required to pay tithe today when no portion of the Bible states so is a great perversion of scripture. To seek through all kinds of gimmicks to force the believer to do that which God himself has not stated is nothing but downright EVIL.

Fable. i still give tithes, God is not complaining. Jesus says it ought to be done.

Bidam:
Does God require giving? If He doesn't require tithing according to you.

God require giving,and we do it daily in any way we can.Christ even gave life,real life,the greatest gift of all.However the subject matter here is the jewish law of tithe.Did jesus and his followers paid or received any?.Were there some who previously paid and received that stopped doing so upon becoming born again in Christ?.Did they and Jesus raise funds to run their ministry via tithe?. Please sincerely answer these few questions.No rigmaroling please.

Image123:


Oh, Malachi is not a verse of wisdom when quoted? Cherry picking.

Malachi 3:10 is a command. Not for the Church, for the Priests of Israel. It is foolish to interpret it any other way.

Proverbs 22:16 is not a command. It does not say don't give to the rich, it doesn't say don't ake from the poor.

Image123:

Fable. i still give tithes, God is not complaining. Jesus says it ought to be done.

Thanks for warning us that your post would be a fable. You didn't have to though. We knew it was when we read it.

Image123:

Fable. i still give tithes, God is not complaining. Jesus says it ought to be done.

Jesus was being sarcastic about that.Read those verses all over again.
Then take some time out to ponder why christ after telling the hypocrites to do this did not turn to his followers with similar message. Ever heard of Paul who was formerly Saul?.Please tell us why he stopped paying tithes when he became born again.Are you also aware that he regreted working through the OT laws?.Please check your bible to conform. Now you say you take pride in paying tithe,the apostles and everyone who followed christ did not do that.Some of them even wrote the bible.Are you Godlier than them.Did they rob God? Were they under curse? Pease explain

chysam:


Jesus was being sarcastic about that.Read those verses all over again.
Then take some time out to ponder why christ after telling the hypocrites to do this did not turn to his followers with similar message. Ever heard of Paul who was formerly Saul?.Please tell us why he stopped paying tithes when he became born again.Are you also aware that he regreted working through the OT laws?.Please check your bible to conform. Now you say you take pride in paying tithe,the apostles and everyone who followed christ did not do that.Some of them even wrote the bible.Are you Godlier than them.Did they rob God? Were they under curse? Pease explain

yes, he prides himself in tithing. Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18.

Both he and the Pharisee have their reward.

MarkMiwerds:
yes, he prides himself in tithing. Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18.

Both he and the Pharisee have their reward.

Whenever the issue of christ and his followers is mentioned in this case,those of you who claim so much to understand the bible are found wanting.Your wisdom diminishes in split seconds.When did you treat the other questions I asked with oversight?. The answer is simply because that is exactly the area where the truth and revelation of that false doctrine lie.Any christian doing what jesus did not do as a christian tradition is not just deceiving himself but being idiotic.it beats the sense of imagination when a christian rely on OT verses to support his argument on an issue that revolve around christians.especially the ones that directly affected jesus and his early followers. I challenge any pro-tither to give us his reasons using christians and not the high priests.So many idiotic christians do not even know that issues related to tithe formed part of the reasons christ was gruesomely murdered and christians martyred.The priests were angered because judizers were being converted therefore reducing drastically the number of people paying tithes to them.The orchestrated and masterminded the murder of the christ,giving life to a real murderer in his stead.it is tantamount to wickedness and satanism for a pastor to stand in a pulpit supposedly belonging to jesus christ and laying claim to be representing a jewish priest because he wants 10% of peoples sweat. Why must you represent people who killed your master and at the same time deceive people that you are working for the same master?.Can anybody tell us why these pastors never claim to be representing the apostles?. I challenge any of them here to beat his chest and say I am.Then let him tell us why he is deliberating refusing to represent them in the area of tithe taking.

chysam:


God require giving,and we do it daily

Thanks for you sincerity.No further questions. I rest my case.

As I woke up this morning the lord gave me psalm 49 to read. I'm reading it from the NIV Bible
Hear this, all you people's;
Listen all who live in this world, both low and high, rich and poor alike;
My mouth will speak words of wisdom; the mediation of my heart will give you understanding.
I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:
Why should I fear when the evil day's come,
when wicked deceivers surround me-those who trust in their wealth and boast of their great riches?
No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them-the ransom for a life is costly,
No payment is ever enough-so they should live for ever and not see decay.
For all can see that the wise die, that the foolish and the senseless also perish.
Leaving their wealth to others.
Their tombs will remain their houses forever, their dwellings for endless generation, though they had named lands after themselves.
People, despite their wealth, do not endure; they are like beast that perish.
This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings.
They are like sheep and are destined to die; death will be their shepherd {but the upright will prevail over them in the morning}
Their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.
But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.
Do not be overawed when others grow rich, when the splendor of their houses increases;
for they will take nothing with them when they die, their splendor will not descend with them.
Though while they live they count themselves blessed-and people praise you when you prosper-they will join those who had gone before them,
who will never again see the light of life. People who have wealth but lack understanding are like the beast that perish. quote author=chysam post=27479388]

Jesus was being sarcastic about that.Read those verses all over again.
Then take some time out to ponder why christ after telling the hypocrites to do this did not turn to his followers with similar message. Ever heard of Paul who was formerly Saul?.Please tell us why he stopped paying tithes when he became born again.Are you also aware that he regreted working through the OT laws?.Please check your bible to conform. Now you say you take pride in paying tithe,the apostles and everyone who followed christ did not do that.Some of them even wrote the bible.Are you Godlier than them.Did they rob God? Were they under curse? Pease explain[/quote]

[quote author=Bidam post=27480574] Thanks for you sincerity.No further questions. I rest my case. [/quote

You need to do better than that.Don't rest your case on selective reading. Go further,comment on the rest.However if you can't,I understand.it takes only a very sincere heart to be able to answer the other questions because it is bitter truth. Now try if you can.

MarkMiwerds:
Malachi 3:10 is a command. Not for the Church, for the Priests of Israel. It is foolish to interpret it any other way.

Proverbs 22:16 is not a command. It does not say don't give to the rich, it doesn't say don't ake from the poor.

Malachi 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

The context is verse 9.Do pastors supposedly threaten anyone with verse 10? You threatened me with proverbs and criticise others for threatening with Malachi. How you can't see that is unfortunate.

Do you feel threatened by Proverbs 22:16?

If not, then how can I have threatened you with it? If you do, then don't blame me. That verse was written centuries before I was even born.

Again, Proverbs 22:16 is a verse of wisdom that is applicable to anyone and everyone. If you give to the rich, you will come to want. If the rich take from the poor, they too, will come to want. Maybe not this side of eternity, but if not, then they will stand wanting when they stand before God.

As to Malachi, we have been over that already. The curse in Malachi was never for the Church. Why shouldn't I criticize pastors who intimidate their congregations with the threat of Malachi's curse when they clearly take it out of context.

If you can't see that, it is unfortunate.

Image123:


Oh, Malachi is not a verse of wisdom when quoted? Cherry picking.

Not when it's being twisted to extort monetary tithes from income by rogues and charlatans.

Image123:


Malachi 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

The context is verse 9.Do pastors supposedly threaten anyone with verse 10? You threatened me with proverbs and criticise others for threatening with Malachi. How you can't see that is unfortunate.

Your assertion here is not clear and it looks like you deliberately made it so to create confusion. Whose curse is the curse mentioned in Malachi?. You would do better explaining this in clear terms.You who pretend now sincerely know that tithing by the gullible tithers is against thoses curses.Or do you have a contrary explanation?

Read psalm 49" this should lighten you up. Pastors who preach tithes are building their Kingdoms here on Earth, And when they die, they take nothing with them.

chysam:

Whenever the issue of christ and his followers is mentioned in this case,those of you who claim so much to understand the bible are found wanting.Your wisdom diminishes in split seconds.When did you treat the other questions I asked with oversight?. The answer is simply because that is exactly the area where the truth and revelation of that false doctrine lie.Any christian doing what jesus did not do as a christian tradition is not just deceiving himself but being idiotic.it beats the sense of imagination when a christian rely on OT verses to support his argument on an issue that revolve around christians.especially the ones that directly affected jesus and his early followers. I challenge any pro-tither to give us his reasons using christians and not the high priests.So many idiotic christians do not even know that issues related to tithe formed part of the reasons christ was gruesomely murdered and christians martyred.The priests were angered because judizers were being converted therefore reducing drastically the number of people paying tithes to them.The orchestrated and masterminded the murder of the christ,giving life to a real murderer in his stead.it is tantamount to wickedness and satanism for a pastor to stand in a pulpit supposedly belonging to jesus christ and laying claim to be representing a jewish priest because he wants 10% of peoples sweat. Why must you represent people who killed your master and at the same time deceive people that you are working for the same master?.Can anybody tell us why these pastors never claim to be representing the apostles?. I challenge any of them here to beat his chest and say I am.Then let him tell us why he is deliberating refusing to represent them in the area of tithe taking.

chysam:


Your assertion here is not clear and it looks like you deliberately made it so to create confusion. Whose curse is the curse mentioned in Malachi?. You would do better explaining this in clear terms.You who pretend now sincerely know that tithing by the gullible tithers is against thoses curses.Or do you have a contrary explanation?

i don't understand what you're saying.