₦airaland Forum

nannymcphee:
While they might not be against it, much emphasis is placed on getting it NOW, the same way churches are not Aainst holy living & righteousness but much emphasis is placed on prosperity and you know what that has led to today, people are no longer heavenly conscious but earthly conscious, how best they can live the good life here



You didn't quite follow then, the issue wasn't that instant miracles/harvest wasn't possible rather it was an issue of the "instantness" being hinged on one's great faith !!

In order words, if you have great faith you can command your harvest to come now.

That's why I kicked against hezekiah's prayer as an example. Nothing there suggests that he got an instant reply from God because of his great faith but rather Gods mercy was at work there( I'm in no way saying his prayer had nothing to do with God changing his mind) but it was not his faith per say that moved God to add 15yrs INSTANTLY

Talking about instant harvest & "if thou shall say unto this mountain be that cast into the sea....." Why didn't Jesus command figs to appear on that tree that moment he needed them? After all he was hungry, this is the same Jesus that turned water into wine instantly!!!!

Maybe he didn't have "great faith" at that point!!!!

btw, Jesus said if you have faith as a muster seed(it has been established that the mustard seed is very small), one will say to the mountain

Gombs et al will have us believe that it is great faith that does the work & not the small muster seed size of faith that does the work

Just before you open ur mouth, I have the book "how to make your faith work" & I was in the meeting it was first taught:Charismatic Renewal Conference (this directed at Gombs)

vooks:
The problem is basically TRADITION. You have heard of this passage hundreds of times used and many principles or lessons derived from it. You have been told the snake BIT Paul. That's truth for you. Most people arguing for BITE here have NEVER dug the Greek behind it until now

I am not the first Christian on earth and most certainly not the first Spirit filled believer. So I have a lot of respect of Commentaries and those who were in Christ before me. They are not authorities but certainly have a lot we can learn from. Let's look at Barnes;

And fastened on his hand - καθῆψεν kathēpsen. This word properly means to join oneself to; to touch; to adhere to. It might have been by coiling around his hand and arm, or by fastening its fangs in his hand. It is not expressly affirmed that Paul was bitten by the viper, yet it is evidently implied; and it is wholly incredible that a viper, unless miraculously prevented, should fasten himself to the hand without biting.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/acts/28.htm


I wonder how easy it is to shake/brush off a snake with even half an inch of a set of its fangs deep inside your flesh. I see strong evidence against a bite than for

Candour:
Is God shutting the mouth of the snake and preventing it from biting not miracle enough? Or you think God is powerless to stop the snake from biting like he closed the mouth of the lions? Doesn't God preventing a bite also mean God saved Paul?

Why paint a false picture that folks are denying the power of God in that instance?

nlMediator:
But the Scripture never said that the miracle was about the snake's mouth being shut. You're the one suggesting that. In Daniel's case, the Scripture was clear. Here, the Scripture starts by telling us the people's impression. While that may not be a yardstick, the Scripture would have been clear to tell us the miracle was the snake's mouth being shut and thereby correct the people's erroneous impression. By leaving that impression uncorrected, we are left to hold on to it.

nannymcphee:
And fastened on his hand - καθῆψεν kathēpsen. This word properly means to join oneself to; to touch; to adhere to. It might have been by coiling around his hand and arm, or by fastening its fangs in his hand. It is not [size=16pt]expressly affirmed that Paul was bitten by the viper[/size] yet it is evidently implied; and it is wholly incredible that a viper, [size=16pt]unless miraculously prevented[/size] should fasten himself to the hand without biting

just have an open mind, we know you have been taught that he was bitten, now the scenario is being presented in a new light, starting with the original Greek word(which doesn't suggest biting)

if you we're watching someone from afar, seeing a snake coiled around any part of his body, won't you assume he will be bitten, if yes( then your answer will account for the statement made by paul onlookers)

WinsomeX:
Next time you could consider saying upfront that you were using the word "loosely". Though I almost thought so too but no matter how "loose" you use dispensation, I am yet to see anyone teach three dispensations under the Trinity title. You alluded to it to make the point that our time is a dispensation of the Spirit - a doctrine that is foreign to the bible.



This is what Jesus said of the Holy Spirit in John 14 and 16:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

I quoted all this to challenge your theory that the Holy Spirit is not just our helper/comforter but Christ's replacement. I am convinced that neither this passages nor any other passage of scripture teaches that the Spirit REPLACES Christ. Rather, what is clear in all scripture is that when the Spirit is mentioned, it is always in regard to his duty. The Holy Spirit comes to do a work in the believer on behalf of the other God-head. Read through the above scripture and see that the Spirit is sent to DO something.

Again the essence of all this is not to belittle the Holy Spirit but to point to Christ whom the Spirit himself glorifies. It has pleased God to make the Son of his love, Jesus Christ, the object of all of humanity worship and no other. It displeased the religious mind that with the turn of the NT, the emphasis was no longer on God but on Christ, just as the emphasis is not on the Spirit today but on Christ. I maintain that men begin to delve into realms of error when they place an emphasis on the Spirit that scriptures does not.



If you remember well in Colossians 4, Paul instructed the Colossians to obtain the epistle he sent to the Laodiceans. These cities were neighbours. Apparently, Paul did not think that that epistle was sufficient. Neither am I saying so. DrummaBoy and myself are saying that Paul told the Colossians what was important; what he felt needed emphasis and in the process he mentioned the Spirit once. Again in the place of duty:

Colossians 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

The Colossians walked in love only as they found help by the Spirit. That's all. And I think that's one emphasis we should lay too: walk in love by the Spirit. Gods Holy Spirit is here to help you walk in love. If I achieve this by the Spirit and fail in tongues, miracles or experiences, I will be content and everyone of us should be.



It is not my fault that you idolize Hagin so much that you refuse to see that he was human and could make mistakes including preaching false doctrine. Some of us have chosen not to do this. We can judge him by his life and ministry, which must include not only what he wrote but what the cameras caught him doing.

If in doing this, however, you think some of us have no experience with the Holy Spirit, you are entitled to your opinion. I however think you must deem yourself omniscient to conclude that some people do not have spiritual experiences when you do not live with them, you have not read anything in them beyond nl, nor have you seen them on camera.

But I understand your plight: we've been there before. It's called "do me, I do you..."



Again I maintain this:

1. That there is no biblical account of scripture that recorded Christ and his apostles laughing in the Spirit. If you indulge such practices, please undrstand that you are involved with extra scriptural experiences and practices.

2. Laughing in the spirit are experiences prominent among New Age cults and easter religion. Those who import them into the church need not be considered heroes.

3. I have not denied that Christians can have experiences. I have mine. They are personal and private, and need not be revealed, 2 Cor 12:1ff. However experiences are SECONDARY to the Christian walk. What is primary is a walk of faith: shown in knowing Jesus and serving him.

4. The matter of the Spirit not being the emphasis of Colossians is the point of this discuss. Those who lay emphasis on the Spirit to the point of indulging extra scriptural mystical experiences, like the Charismatics do, have waded into error unknowingly.

nlMediator:
Why are all of you emphasizing the part of the commentary that is convenient? Your quote clearly says that the way "fastened" is written there, it is implied that he was bitten. That may even be the reason Luke did not bother elaborating. He assumes he's writing to people with common sense, who would understand what happens when such a snake fastens itself on somebody's hand. And that's exactly what the villagers did, as Luke was kind enough to report. If something outside the norm occurred, i.e. the sanke fastened without biting or attacking, then Luke would have found it important to mention that. But he did not. In this case, and in light of what he reported about the people's impression, silence speaks volumes.

nlMediator:
1. Go and check the meaning of the word "comforter" in the Greek. It's simply means somebody like Jesus that will be in His place among the believers.

2. So, I can assume you have the spiritual experiences that you ridicule? That would make you worse than a hypocrite. Therefore, I would assume that you simply do not have those experiences. Omniscience is not required for that. Simple deductive reasoning would do.

Image123:
It gets more ridiculous, can everyone please behave? What's all this heat and noise about nothing? We're not here for ophiology and other irrelevances being given prominence. i want to believe all parties here are professing christians and should so behave, regardless of whatever doctrine or teaching you're attempting to pass across. There's at least an expected level of decorum and piety in religion circles and this is one. Why so much disregard, abuse, insult, rancour, bigotry and disrespect on the section than some other sections. And it's painfully amongst professing Christians. Please again, decorum.

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Mar 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Mar 5:18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
Mar 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mar 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Mar 5:22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
Mar 5:23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
Mar 5:24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.

Mar 5:28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
Mar 5:29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
Mar 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

mbaemeka:
Nannymcphee,

I read your post and I agree with some things even as I disagree with some others. I don't believe we can curtail how much or how fast someone can get anything through faith from God. So I would be very careful about mixing everything when I am telling them about God so that they don't get shortchanged by the devil and then think that sovereignty played a part e.g Daniel's prayer etc., but I get you.

I love you too.

Image123:
It gets more ridiculous, can everyone please behave? What's all this heat and noise about nothing? We're not here for ophiology and other irrelevances being given prominence. i want to believe all parties here are professing christians and should so behave, regardless of whatever doctrine or teaching you're attempting to pass across. There's at least an expected level of decorum and piety in religion circles and this is one. Why so much disregard, abuse, insult, rancour, bigotry and disrespect on the section than some other sections. And it's painfully amongst professing Christians. Please again, decorum.

mbaemeka:
Nannymcphee,
Now kindly tell us how anybody will see that image and think that the snake bit the tree because the Maltans (to you and yours) 'thought' Paul was bitten and the ONLY way they would have thought so, was if they saw the head and not the tail around Paul's hand.

nlMediator:
1. Go and check the meaning of the word "comforter" in the Greek. It's simply means somebody like Jesus that will be in His place among the believers.

nlMediator:
2. So, I can assume you have the spiritual experiences that you ridicule? That would make you worse than a hypocrite. Therefore, I would assume that you simply do not have those experiences. Omniscience is not required for that. Simple deductive reasoning would do.

WinsomeX:
Since you responded to only two of all the issues I spoke on, I would assume that you have no other queries with the others.



You said the Holy Spirit will be Christ's replacement. You have however modified replacement with "somebody like Jesus that will be in His place among the believers" - drawing closer to my own position that the Holy Spirit is our helper and called to a duty and not necessarily the center of our devotion as Christians. You may supply the original Greek meaning of the word Comforter but I am sure they will not be too far from these. And non of them is anything close to REPLACEMENT.

John 14:16
KJV:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

ESV:And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

NIV:And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

AMP:And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever—

Comforter: helper, advocate, counsellor, intercessor, strengthener, standby.

Which of these is close to REPLACEMENT? I do not believe that the meaning of the word comforter should be "somebody like Jesus to take his place among Christians"; I would however accept "somebody like Jesus who will help the believer to be What Christ will have us be".

I insist that the Spirit is not to take the place of Christ in Christian devotion but to help the believer in his devotion to Christ. There is a lot of difference here.



I have spiritual experiences. I don't have experiences of Spirit laughter and I am not ridiculing it; I am stating a fact and truth, regardless of how you see it.

I referred you to 2 Cor 12, and I am sure you missed the point. Paul had a spiritual experience; a valid one. Rather than flaunt it around and use it as basis of his teaching, he made it clear that he could not tell the things he heard or experienced. That's a proof of legitimate Christian experiences. They are not means to legitimize doctrine (eg: Jesus appeared to me and said Christians should...); they are personal experiences that aid personal devotion to God. The moment experiences become something you share on nl, know that there is more of self glorification in it and God's Spirit never authors such.

If however you can tell that I do not have these experiences, you must be omniscient then.

Gombs:
You ridiculed it, What facts and truths did you state?

mbaemeka:
Now kindly tell us how anybody will see that image and think that the snake bit the tree because the Maltans (to you and yours) 'thought' Paul was bitten and the ONLY way they would have thought so, was if they saw the head and not the tail around Paul's hand.

BabaGnoni:
The facts and truths are "Holy Ghost laughter" is nothing more than just glorified "Laughter yoga"
- an exercise done in groups, involving making faces, sticking out tongues, prolonged voluntary laughter, and where feigned/forced/suggestive laughter soon turns into real and contagious laughter.

Otherwise, it then is something else worse, sinister and darkening, on par with Kundalini.

"Baba", been an Apostle as he claimed he was, had prophesied (i.e. this is captured on video) that God promised Him that a new wave of special anointing will sweep across the country and the world beyond

Since then, "Baba" had been trying to validate this prophecy, with the occasional attempts of laughing in Pastors meetings at his Tulsa base,
this is all long before Rodney Howard Brown came on the scene.

The "finale" video which you conveniently left out, is where "Baba" said it is the first time they experienced the FULL manisfestation of the laughing anointing (i.e. all other incidents or videos prior the finale video were warm ups)

Gombs:
How is this not ridiculing what you know nothing of?

Gombs:
You ridiculed it, What facts and truths did you state?

WinsomeX:
Again I maintain this:

1. That there is no biblical account of scripture that recorded Christ and his apostles laughing in the Spirit. If you indulge such practices, please undrstand that you are involved with extra scriptural experiences and practices.

2. Laughing in the spirit are experiences prominent among New Age cults and easter religion. Those who import them into the church need not be considered heroes.

3. I have not denied that Christians can have experiences. I have mine. They are personal and private, and need not be revealed, 2 Cor 12:1ff. However experiences are SECONDARY to the Christian walk. What is primary is a walk of faith: shown in knowing Jesus and serving him.

4. The matter of the Spirit not being the emphasis of Colossians is the point of this discuss. Those who lay emphasis on the Spirit to the point of indulging extra scriptural mystical experiences, like the Charismatics do, have waded into error unknowingly.

BabaGnoni:
The facts and truths are "Holy Ghost laughter" is nothing more than just glorified "Laughter yoga"
- an exercise done in groups, involving making faces, sticking out tongues, prolonged voluntary laughter, and where feigned/forced/suggestive laughter soon turns into real and contagious laughter.

Otherwise, it then is something else worse, sinister and darkening, on par with Kundalini.

"Baba", been an Apostle as he claimed he was, had prophesied (i.e. this is captured on video) that God promised Him that a new wave of special anointing will sweep across the country and the world beyond

Since then, "Baba" had been trying to validate this prophecy, with the occasional attempts of laughing in Pastors meetings at his Tulsa base,
this is all long before Rodney Howard Brown came on the scene.

This "Holy Ghost laughter and slain in the spirit" thing in early videos is what "Baba" declared to be the first filling demonstration of the new spiritual anointing he said God had promised him

The "finale" video which you conveniently left out, is where "Baba" said it is the FIRST TIME they experienced the FULL manisfestation of the laughing anointing (i.e. all other incidents or videos prior the finale video were warm ups)

Gombs:
How is this not ridiculing what you know nothing of?

BabaGnoni:
The facts and truths are "Holy Ghost laughter" is nothing more than just glorified "Laughter yoga"
- an exercise done in groups, involving making faces, sticking out tongues, prolonged voluntary laughter, and where feigned/forced/suggestive laughter soon turns into real and contagious laughter.
Otherwise, it then is something else worse, sinister and darkening, on par with Kundalini.
"Baba", been an Apostle as he claimed he was, had prophesied (i.e. this is captured on video) that God promised Him that a new wave of special anointing will sweep across the country and the world beyond
Since then, "Baba" had been trying to validate this prophecy, with the occasional attempts of laughing in Pastors meetings at his Tulsa base,
this is all long before Rodney Howard Brown came on the scene.
This "Holy Ghost laughter and slain in the spirit" thing in early videos is what "Baba" declared to be the first filling demonstration of the new spiritual anointing he said God had promised him
The "finale" video which you conveniently left out, is where "Baba" said it is the FIRST TIME they experienced the FULL manisfestation of the laughing anointing (i.e. all other incidents or videos prior the finale video were warm ups)

BabaGnoni:
The facts and truths are "Holy Ghost laughter" is nothing more than just glorified "Laughter yoga"
- an exercise done in groups, involving making faces, sticking out tongues, prolonged voluntary laughter, and where feigned/forced/suggestive laughter soon turns into real and contagious laughter.

Otherwise, it then is something else worse, sinister and darkening, on par with Kundalini.

"Baba", been an Apostle as he claimed he was, had prophesied (i.e. this is captured on video) that God promised Him that a new wave of special anointing will sweep across the country and the world beyond

Since then, "Baba" had been trying to validate this prophecy, with the occasional attempts of laughing in Pastors meetings at his Tulsa base,
this is all long before Rodney Howard Brown came on the scene.

This "Holy Ghost laughter and slain in the spirit" thing in early videos is what "Baba" declared to be the first filling demonstration of the new spiritual anointing he said God had promised him

The "finale" video which you conveniently left out, is where "Baba" said it is the FIRST TIME they experienced the FULL manisfestation of the laughing anointing (i.e. all other incidents or videos prior the finale video were warm ups)

trustman:
Again, is there anything in the lives of the apostles or the epistles that substantiates this?

nlMediator:
You guys are so comfortable with lying. Raises questions about who you fellowship with more: the father of lies or the Father of life? Can you point to just ONE place in almost 70 years of ministry where Hagin claimed to be an apostle?

nlMediator:
Care to share some of those spiritual experiences you have had, so we can also evaluate them as you have been evaluating other people's? Or am I supposed to simply take your word for it?.

nlMediator:
As to the place of the Holy Spirit, I modified nothing in my position. I've been saying the same thing in different words. You have access to Strong's. Look at the phrase used there for another comforter and you'll know what Jesus was saying, which is the same thing I'm saying here.

In July 2002 while praying the Lord revealed to me that Dad Hagin was not just a Prophet but he was an Apostle to his entire generation. The Lord did not reveal to me, at his funeral nor at this time in 2002, that he was the forerunner of the second coming of Jesus Christ.

In 2003, just a few weeks before Dad Hagin’s home going I was able to talk with him about what I saw in the Spirit about him being an Apostle to his generation. He told me the story of Jesus appearing to his mother before he was born and told her to name him John. I still had not received the revelation that he was the forerunner of the second coming of Jesus Christ, even though I heard him tell the story many times. The first time he ever mentioned, publicly, that he was the forerunner of the second coming of Jesus Christ, just as John the Baptist was the forerunner of the first coming of Jesus was at his Camp Meeting in July 2001, in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

nlMediator:
You guys are so comfortable with lying. Raises questions about who you fellowship with more: the father of lies or the Father of life? Can you point to just ONE place in almost 70 years of ministry where Hagin claimed to be an apostle?

WinsomeX:
I believe you were quoting the wrong person. But here is my answer all the same.
No I can't. I have made "why' clear to you earlier.
There is nothing in the strong concordance different from what I had said earlier. If there is, quote Strong here and show me.
Remember our point of contention: The Holy Spirit is not a REPLACEMENT for Christ. There is no such thing as the dispensation of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, is our helper, our advocate, our counsellor. He is with us to help us with our devotion to Christ and NOT OUR DEVOTION TO HIMSELF. This is what scriptures, especially John 14 and 16, teaches.
Devotion to the Spirit is the foundation of many delving into mysticism and errors.