₦airaland Forum

sino:
Seriously, brother, you have let this Shia ideology becloud your sense of judgment, what is wrong with Abu Bakr's (RA) statement that warrant using it to weigh his being rightly guided or not?

I will take the underline as a compliment.

Imam Fakhr deen ar-Razi in his Tafsir kabir under the ayah "...and obey the prophet and those vested in authority", explained that since the same word "ati'u (obey)" is share between the prophet and "those vested in authority", then the later must be masoom as the prophet.

Allah clearly declares when He laid the foundation of Imamah (leadership):
"...'My Covenant (Imamah)shall not reach the wrongdoers"
~Quran 2:124

Imam Al-Tabari records with Sahih chain from Mujahid that he said: (My Covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers) means There will never be an Imam who does wrong.

The statement of Abu Bakar was declared at the seat of "Khaliphacy". Its an explicit, sensitive statement. And it was evident and manisfested in the 1st and 2nd Khalifa's rulings to sensitive matters whereby 'Ali (as) need to correct them on the right ruling. All these are stated in many Sunni texts.

sino:
Please read the following and know that a sincere Muslim, should always be in constant hope and fear, it does not matter how much of the Qur'an or Sunnah you know, please read tafsir of Al-Fatha by Tbaba1234 on the verse “guide us to the straight path”

Allah (SWT) says:
“Call upon Him with Fear and Hope.” [Qur'an 7:56].
“Their sides forsake their beds, to invoke their Lord in Fear and Hope.” [Qur'an 32:16].
“Verily your Lord is Quick in Punishment and verily He is Oft-Forgiving, the Giver of Mercy.” [Qur'an 7:167]

Since when was tbaba 1234 turned Mufassir?

All I see in those above noted blessed verses is "invoke", "call upon" Allah in Fear and Hope. Was Abu Bakar calling upon Allah when he uttered those statement?

sino:
Abû Bakr Al-Siddîq – Allâh be pleased with him – said:
I will not leave anything Allâh’s Messenger – Allâh’s peace and blessings be upon him – did, except that I will also do it; for I fear that if I were to leave any of his commands and ways I would deviate.

Al-Bukhârî, Al-Sahîh 2:386 hadîth no. 3093; Ibn Battah, Al-Ibânah article 77, and others.

Definitely, that is what a follower should say so Abu Bakar is right. However, those appointed by Allah and His prophet as Imam/Khalifa cannot deviate because:
And We made them Imams who guide (people) by Our command; ~al-Anbiyyah:73

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. ~Sajdah:24

sino:
Saying radillahu anhum can be traced directly to the Qur'an, Allah has used it on them, so thus we can, we are not introducing anything new to worship or Islam, so please you cannot use that. It is not an “independent reasoning” it is what the Qur'an categorically states. I believe there is lots of ikhtiram among the Sahabas themselves during their lifetime, and they prayed for themselves often, at least, praying for your Muslim brother is an act of sunnah, they learnt it from the Prophet (SAW), thus they would have practiced it often.

Like I already mentioned, the fact that Allah used the word several times in the Quran, for the righteous companions and He NEVER instructed the Prophet, his Ummah to do the same; and the holy prophet (peace be on him and his progeny) NEVER institutionalized it for once; and NONE of the companions EVER practiced it, is even a hujjah against your submission.

Following your logic that ONLY what the Prophet (or his sahaba) did is to be followed exclusively, you have no valid prove to say "Radi'Allahu anhum" after the name of any sahaba.

I repeat again, ONLY our reasoning judge it to be right and it was established as a common practice.

sino:
What brought about this long discuss, is the issue of reciting adhkar and Surah of the Qur'an for a fixed count, which promises such and such rewards not documented in the shari'ah. The issue of a creature not classified in the Shari'ah. And my point has been to uphold the Shari'ah, following the Sunnah, for surely, that is where guidance is.

What we are trying to established is those who recommended an x fixed count done so as a result of their spiritual experience/manifestation. They never obligate or forced it on anybody.

@bold^So if an x creature is not classified in the shariah, does that mean such a creature discovered by an experience spiritualist does not exist?

Qur'an clearly stated many worlds exist different from ours. It is not obligatory we research into them, but if we do come across them with their inhabitant, it is expected to increase our knowledge and confirmation of "Rabil alameen".

sino:
Oh dear brother, what i'm trying to say is this for example; the Prophet (SAW) thought the Sahaba isthikhara, it is not wajib, it is a form of worship, so if someone now comes and said, if you want to make a decision, recite khaf, Ya sin, and isawaka, recite them on a daily basis for 7 days, Allah (SWT) will guide you and give you this and that, indeed, reciting the Qur'an has its benefits, guidance is part of it, and it is a form of dua'a.

@underlined, that's the Qur'an for you. In fact, Qur'an itself says its a guide for mu'minin. Meaning Qur'an could be used in anyway of guidance (e.g istikhara). But how?

This does not in anyway whatsoever conflict with the recommended acts of Istikhara of Nabi (peace be on him and his progeny). And the recommendations of the prophet does not in anyway declared no way in using Quran for Istikhara. Seeking other means apart from these two is what is beyond the Shariah, and classified Bid'ah.

In fact, an experience muslim will combine the two.

Again, how do you use Qur'an for al-Istikhara? Practical experience.

I quoted an hadith in Sahih Bukhari earlier about certain groups of sahaba who were sent on errand by Rasul. There was a problem in a nearby village where the head of the village was stung by scorpion and he needs Ruqya (healing). One of the sahaba, perhaps the fact that Qur'an says its a cure, recited al-Fatiha on that spot and the man was relieved. Amazingly, when the news got to the noble Prophet (peace be on him and his progeny), joyfully he asked "how did you know that?"

Personally, I used sura al-Fatiha for Istikhara. Empiree might used Ya sin. Kazlaw2000 might used sura Ikhlas etc. We are at liberty in this.

I hope you understand all this brother.

sino:
But the Prophet (SAW) has thought us what to do, the person has no solid foundation on what he is doing or calling people to do, the Prophet (SAW) nor his companions said those specific surahs should be recited when one wants to make a decision or when one seeks guidance...that which the Prophet (SAW) thought, is far more superior to that which anyone can come up with. He is our teacher, our leader, we must follow him. I hope you can see what I am trying to say?

I have response to all these already but @underlined, you see going back to issue of "Radi'Allahu anhum", you simply has no justification.

Wa salam alaykum

Empiree:
Okay nau. ....This needs to be put to rest. It's going to keep going on and on till Jesus returns. There are tons of Ahadith recorded. I can dig too and say this and that is da'ef or fabricated.

All I know is we can not use hadith, which sometimes are written to favor or fit certain desires, to divide, critizise what we consider "unsunnatic". Everything you all said up there will always behind Quran Kareem. Mother of all books. Period.

No muslims really dump sunnah. It only depends on understanding of individual sometimes. There is no restriction making dua. That's my understanding from Quran and thats the point.

I can form a dua on my own, in my dialect to praise rosul(saw). It's still part of the sunnah. Just can not be imposed on others. This is very simple instead of dragging unneccesary debate.

We should not be rigid or too rigid. From all indicaations from opposing views, still shows that we are on the same page. The diff is one is rigid, other is flexible..Enough and let's get back to Jinn stories

I seconded.

AlBaqir:
What we are trying to established is those who recommended an x fixed count done so as a result of their spiritual experience/manifestation. They never obligate or forced it on anybody.

@bold^So if an x creature is not classified in the shariah, does that mean such a creature discovered by an experience spiritualist does not exist?

Qur'an clearly stated many worlds exist different from ours. It is not obligatory we research into them, but if we do come across them with their inhabitant, it is expected to increase our knowledge and confirmation of "Rabil alameen".


This does not in anyway whatsoever conflict with the recommended acts of Istikhara of Nabi (peace be on him and his progeny). And the recommendations of the prophet does not in anyway declared no way in using Quran for Istikhara. Seeking other means apart from these two is what is beyond the Shariah, and classified Bid'ah.

Again, how do you use Qur'an for al-Istikhara? Practical experience.

I quoted an hadith in Sahih Bukhari earlier about certain groups of sahaba who were sent on errand by Rasul. There was a problem in a nearby village where the head of the village was stung by scorpion and he needs Ruqya (healing). One of the sahaba, perhaps the fact that Qur'an says its a cure, recited al-Fatiha on that spot and the man was relieved. Amazingly, when the news got to the noble Prophet (peace be on him and his progeny), joyfully he asked "how did you know that?"

Personally, I used sura al-Fatiha for Istikhara. Empiree might used Ya sin. Kazlaw2000 might used sura Ikhlas etc. We are at liberty in this.

I hope you understand all this brother.

Mashallah, Mashallah, MashallllllAAAAAAAAAAh, dear brother. What a wonderful conclusion! This has always been my methodolgy, not rigid @all. Hope they get it

sino:
And in truth, there are sahih narrations in regards to Abu Bakr, being the first male to accept Islam.

“ِAm I not the most deserving of it among the people, Am I not the first to become Muslim…”
Source: Al-Tirmidhee, Sunan, vol. 6, kitaab manaaqib, ch. abu bakr’s merits, pg. 351, hadeeth # 3667 (hadeeth # 4029 in some versions)
Al-Albaani graded this hadeeth Sahih in SaHeeH wa Da`eef Sunan Al-Tirmidhee, vol. 8, pg. 167, hadeeth # 3667
Aboo Taahir Zubayr `Alee Al-Za’i said this hadeeth is Sahih in Sunan Al-Tirmidhee, vol. 6, pg. 351, hadeeth # 3667

Sayyidina Abu Sa’eed Khudri (RA) reported that Abu Bakr (RA) said, “Am I not the most deserving of all people. Am I not the first of those who embraced Islam. Am I not the companion of so-and-so? Am I not the com panion of so-and-so?”
Source: Al-Tirmidhee, Sunan, book on merits, chapter 37-No caption, 3687

Jalaludin Suyuti (Sunni Scholar) in his book Tarikh ul-Khulafa (History of the Caliphs), he died in 911 A.H.

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said: Abu Bakr said, “Am I not the most suitable of the people for it (the khilafah)? Am I not the first to accept Islam? Am I not the one of such and such? Am I not the one of such and such?”

Al-Harith related that “Ali, said the first among the men to accept Islam was Abu Bakr”

Zaid bin Arqam said: The first to perform the prayer with the Prophet, was Abu-Bakr as-Siddiq.

Abu Arwa ad-Dawsi the Companion, said: “The first to accept Islam was Abu Bakr as-Siddiq.”

The evidence (Abu Bakar vs 'Ali vis-a-vis the First Muslim) SEEM even and balanced, based on the opinions of different sahaba depending on their loyalty or info heard etc.

Likewise, the view of Sunni Ulamas are the same. Some goes for 'Ali, some rooted for Abu Bakar. In fact, Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah lost control to the extent that he downplayed 'Ali's acceptance of Islam being a "child" and argued that his acceptance of Islam doesn't take him out of paganism.

So when this kind of discussion turns volatile amidst different emotional views, Qur'an says:
"... (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination." ~an-Nisa:59

So leaving aside anybody's opinions, what was the holy Prophet's opinion?

1. Imam Ahmad records:

'Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Abu Ahmad - Khalid b. Tahman - Nafi b. Abi Nafi - Ma'qil b. Yasar:
"I was with the Prophet, peace be upon him, one day. Then he said, "Would you like to visit Fatimah, may Allah be pleased with her?" I said, "Yes." So, he stood up, leaning on me, and said, "But, someone else apart from you will soon bear its weight and its reward will be for you." It was as though I was carrying nothing until we entered upon Fatimah, peace be upon her. He (the Prophet) said to her, "How do you feel?" She answered, "By Allah, my grief has intensified, my want has worsened and my sickness has lasted long." He said, "Are you not satisfied that I have married you to the one who was [size=25pt]the first of my Ummah to accept Islam[/size], and the most knowledgeable of them, and the most clement of them?"
~Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbali, vol. 5 p.26, #20322.

Note:
1. Imam al-Haythami (d. 807H) states about this report: "Ahmad and al-Tabarani recorded it with narrators who have (all) been graded thiqah (trustworthy).

2. Al-Haythami again comments: "Ahmad and al-Tabarani narrated it. In the chain is khalid b. Tahman. Abu Hatim and others declared him thiqah (trustworthy). The remaining narrators are (all) thiqah.

~Majma' al-Zawaid vol.9 p. 147 - 148, #14669.

3. Sheik Shu'aib al-Arnaut (the annotator of Musnad - Cairo Edition) surprisingly declared: "Its chain is da'if." Strangely, he gives NO REASON for his verdict.

4. Sheik al-Albanni comments: "Ahmad (5/26) recorded it, and from his route Ibn Asakir (12/89/1).
I (al-Albani) say: 'This chain is da'if. Its narrators are thiqah (trustworthy), except Khalid b. Tahman for the majority declared him da'if. Ibn Ma'in said, "He is da'if. He became confused ten years before his death. But, before that he was thiqah (trustworthy)."
~Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da'ifah wa al-Mawdu'ah wa Atharihah al-Sayyiah fi al-Ummah, vol. 10, p. 535, #4898.

***[b]I intend not to make this comment cumbersome because I would have analyze to the whole world how sheik al-Albani shot himself in the leg. The sheik claimed the "majority" declared Khalid as da'if but he can ONLY cited Ibn Ma'in. The sheik also claimed with no prove that Khalid became confused [b]in the last 10years of his life. Earlier Muhadith viewed it otherwise. And the same sheik al-Albani has treated many cases of "confusion" worst than that of khalid thereby, declaring such hadith Sahih. The biggest point according to the Sheik is "does the hadith in question narrated before or after such narrator became confused", and "what's the significant of his confusion".
@sino, I will refer you to one of research book of Toyib Olawuyi "Ali- the best of sahaba" p. 123 - 128. He excellently, expose the hasty judgment of sheik al-Albani in grading the chain da'if.[/b]


2. A corroborating hadith is recorded by 'Allamah al-Hindi (d. 975H):

Narrated 'Ali:
"Abu Bakar and 'Umar sought the hand of Fatimah in marriage from the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. But, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, refused their proposals. So, 'Umar said, "You are for her, O 'Ali." He (Ali) said, "What do I have apart from my armour, my camel and my sword?" So, Ali approached the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, one day and he (the Prophet) said, "O 'Ali! Do you have anything?" He replied, "My camel and my armour."

I mortgaged both of them. So, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, married Fatimah to me. When the news got to Fatimah, she wept. As a result, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, went to her and said, "Why are you weeping, O Fatimah? I swear by Allah, I have married you to the most knowledgeable of them, and the most clement of them, and [size=25pt]the first of them to accept Islam[/size] ."

Al-Hindi comments:
"Ibn Jarir (al-Tabari) recorded it and DECLARED IT SAHIH. Al-Dawlabi also recorded it in al-Dhurriyah al-Tahirah. "

~Kanz al-Ummal fi Sunan al-Aqwil wa Af'al, vol. 13, p. 98, #36370.

3. Imam al-Tabarani also recorded another version with different chain of same wording of the prophet (peace be on him and his household).

~Mu'jam al-Kabir {annotator: Hamadi b. 'Abd al-Majid al-Salafi}, vol. 1, p. 94 #156.

Al-Haythami comments:
"...it is mursal WITH A SAHIH CHAIN."

4. Imam Ibn Asakir (d. 571 H) records:
'Aishah narrates:
"Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, told me that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said to her, "Your husband is the most knowledgeable of the believers, and the first of them to accept Islam, and the most clement of them."

Imam Ibn Asakir also recorded further through different chains linking 'Ali, Fatimah, Asma b. 'Umays, 'Aishah (again).

~Ibn Asakir al-Shafi'i, Tarikh Madinah Dimashq, vol. 80, p.113; vol. 42, p. 132

5. Imam Ahmad b. Hanbali records:

'Ma'qil b. Yasar narrates:
"...He (the prophet) said (to Fatimah), "Are you not satisfied that I have married you to the first of my Ummah to accept Islam, and the most knowledgeable of them, and , and the most clement of them?"
~Abu 'Abd Allah Ahmad b. Hanbali al-Shaybani, Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) {annotator: Shu'ayb al-Arnaut}, vol. 5 p. 26, #20322.

There are many corroborating ahadith, these are the least to save space

To your questions Empiree and AlBaqir, I am no khidr, nor did Allah (SWT) give me knowledge of the unseen, and I no get super powers . I do not know anything other than the fact that a person afflicted with Jinn should consult a righteous scholar who would perform Ruqyah according to the Sunnah, and I’ll also advice the person to adopt the sunnah as much as possible in his/her way of life.

@AlBaqir, I believe there is m’ujizah, and there is karaamah, the former is for Prophets, while the latter is for righteous servants of Allah. The case of the blind would be looked at within the purview of m’ujizah, and indeed, there were other blind men at the time of the Prophet (SAW), is there any report of him restoring their sight? e.g Abdullah bin Umm-Maktum.

The mu‘jizah (miracle) is the extraordinary sign with which Allah supports His Prophets and Messengers, and challenges people. The karaamah is something extraordinary that Allah causes to happen at the hand of one of His close friends. There are many differences between the mu‘jizah and the karaamah, including the following:
1. The mu‘jizah is meant to be done openly and be seen and known by many people, and the one for whom it is done (the Prophet) is enjoined to show it openly, whereas the karaamah is based on concealment and the one for whom it is done (the wali or close friend of Allah) is enjoined to conceal it.
2. The mu‘jizah may be accompanied by a challenge and claim of Prophethood, whereas the karaamah is not accompanied by any challenge or any claim of virtue or high status before Allah.
3. The fruits of the mu‘jizah bring benefits to others, whereas the karaamah usually only benefits the one to whom it is given.
4. The mu‘jizah may be any extraordinary event; the karaamah can only be of a few types.
5. The mu‘jizah is only for the Prophets, whereas the karaamah is for the close friends of Allah.
6. The Prophets use their miracles (mu‘jizah) to establish proof against the mushrikeen, because their hearts are hard; the close friends of Allah (awliya’) use the karaamah to establish proof for themselves so that they will have peace of mind and certainty of faith, and will not be worried or anxious.
Quoted from a Master’s thesis entitled al-Wilaayah wa’l-Karaamah fi’l-‘Aqeedah al-Islamiyyah by Muhammad Khayr al-‘Umari.
You can read more here: http://islamqa.info/en/124838

I agree that we lack spirituality, and to think Salafis don’t know about spirituality, that they are only people of theories, is just naïve. Real salafis (not the trigger happy- takfiri merchant-salafi wannabe) are spiritual. Islamic spirituality is the deepest you can ever find, and it is pure beauty when you experience it, even if it is just for a day!

I have stated that, there are narrations of the prophet given us a fixed number of adhkar to do, and others there isn’t. I’ll rather do what the Prophet (SAW) specifically instructed, at the time prescribed, than do any other thing. Why? I know I have the opportunity to do more at other specific times given for ibaadaat without specificities in terms of count, form or duration, not only that, I am following the best of Mankind as instructed by Allah (SWT) in the Qur’an…

I give you an example, After Subhi, the Prophet (SAW) has a specific set of adhkar, with quantity, I do that, then after which I can do as much dhikr or qira’atul Qur’an as I want and can till the sun comes up for I have read that this period is of enormous blessing in the Sunnah. I do not increase nor innovate on what the Prophet (SAW) instructed, I am still on the Sunnah. I do not place my personal reasoning into it, nor do I try to experiment, I follow the Sunnah!

Let me give another example of what I have been trying to say all this while, take the example of salawaat on the Prophet (SAW), I’ll use the example of the brother with at least 5000 salawaat, we agree ikhlas (Sincerity) is important, so we look at the other aspect following the Sunnah on the following six guidelines given by Sheikh Uthaymeen (Rahimahullah)

The First:as-Sabab (reason, motive): We agree the motive is to send salawaat on the Prophet (SAW) as instructed by Allah (SWT), the Prophet (SAW) also instructed us to send blessings on him, we are good.

The Second: al-Jins (type): So what is the type recommended? Salatul Ibrahimiyah, the full or the short form, this is what is recommended.

The Third: al-Qadr (quantity): There is no quantity, I can do as much as I can, when there is no quantity dictated by the Shari’ah, do as much as you can, you can use all your time or less, for dua’a to send salawaat on the Prophet (SAW), it is recorded in the Sunnah.

The Fourth: al-Kayfiyyah (manner, mode): I follow the text in the way it was presented, I do not distort it, nor do I read it like I’m in a rap battle competing with Eminem, I recite it with the proper pronunciations and concentration.

The Fifth: az-Zamaan (time): During the early hours, after tahajjud, or after the recommended adhkar after the obligatory salah, or during the time I can perform an act of non-obligatory ibaadah.

The Sixth: al-Makaan (place): All the halal places where ibaadah can be performed.

I strongly believe that if we channel our acts according to the Sunnah, we will indeed gain spirituality; following the Sunnah is not an option in acts of worship, it is mandatory, if we truly say we believe, love the Prophet (SAW) and hope for salvation through Muhammad (SAW).
Allah (SWT) says:
"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur’an 3:31)

Let me make a quick analogy, a patient goes to the doctor who prescribed drugs to be used 3 times daily, the patient in his own wisdom, thinks due to the pains he is feeling, and wants a quick relief, he decided to use the drugs all at the same time, dismissing the instructions of the doctor, if care is not taken, this patient may lose his life!

On a final note, from your responses so far, AlBaqir, is it wrong for me to infer that you believe we can jettison the Sunnah at will, by following our own initiative, experimenting (in a deen that is complete) to also arrive at the same result with that of the Sunnah, even when we know what is recommended/instructed, we can still go ahead and experiment with our own reasoning, and in doing that, we are still following the Sunnah?

This is not the time for experimenting, this is the time for following, the Sahabas had experimented under the watchful eyes of the Prophet (SAW), during the period of divine revelation, you can never have that back!

I seek refuge in Allah from innovation in the deen and what would lead me to it. Ameen


NB: @ AlBaqir,

1. You have raised issues in your responses which cannot be discussed on this thread further, I hope in sha Allah, Allah will grant me the opportunity to discuss them with you later, as some of it is the basis of the difference in aqeedah between the Sunni and the Shia

2. In regards to the Qur’anic verses quoted, it is unfortunate you cannot see the correlation, calling on Allah (SWT), worshipping Allah (SWT), following the Prophet (SAW). The prophet (SAW) came to teach us how to call on Allah, how to worship Allah (SWT), without the Prophet (SAW) you can never know Ibaadah (Worship). Hope you will understand.

3. Tbaba1234 is not a mufasir, may Allah increase him in knowledge, but he made a beautiful thread on tafsir surah Fatha according to what he was thought by his teacher which I believe must have studied different tafsirs. I made reference to it thinking you would have come across the thread.

4. Unless you want to state otherwise, Ali (RA) followed the Sunnah of Muhammad (SAW), he was a follower of the best of mankind.

Assalam Alaykum.

AlBaqir:
The evidence (Abu Bakar vs 'Ali vis-a-vis the First Muslim) SEEM even and balanced, based on the opinions of different sahaba depending on their loyalty or info heard etc.

Likewise, the view of Sunni Ulamas are the same. Some goes for 'Ali, some rooted for Abu Bakar. In fact, Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah lost control to the extent that he downplayed 'Ali's acceptance of Islam being a "child" and argued that his acceptance of Islam doesn't take him out of paganism.

So when this kind of discussion turns volatile amidst different emotional views, Qur'an says:
"... (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination." ~an-Nisa:59

So leaving aside anybody's opinions, what was the holy Prophet's opinion?

1. Imam Ahmad records:

'Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Abu Ahmad - Khalid b. Tahman - Nafi b. Abi Nafi - Ma'qil b. Yasar:
"I was with the Prophet, peace be upon him, one day. Then he said, "Would you like to visit Fatimah, may Allah be pleased with her?" I said, "Yes." So, he stood up, leaning on me, and said, "But, someone else apart from you will soon bear its weight and its reward will be for you." It was as though I was carrying nothing until we entered upon Fatimah, peace be upon her. He (the Prophet) said to her, "How do you feel?" She answered, "By Allah, my grief has intensified, my want has worsened and my sickness has lasted long." He said, "Are you not satisfied that I have married you to the one who was [size=25pt]the first of my Ummah to accept Islam[/size], and the most knowledgeable of them, and the most clement of them?"
~Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbali, vol. 5 p.26, #20322.

Note:
1. Imam al-Haythami (d. 807H) states about this report: "Ahmad and al-Tabarani recorded it with narrators who have (all) been graded thiqah (trustworthy).

2. Al-Haythami again comments: "Ahmad and al-Tabarani narrated it. In the chain is khalid b. Tahman. Abu Hatim and others declared him thiqah (trustworthy). The remaining narrators are (all) thiqah.

~Majma' al-Zawaid vol.9 p. 147 - 148, #14669.

3. Sheik Shu'aib al-Arnaut (the annotator of Musnad - Cairo Edition) surprisingly declared: "Its chain is da'if." Strangely, he gives NO REASON for his verdict.

4. Sheik al-Albanni comments: "Ahmad (5/26) recorded it, and from his route Ibn Asakir (12/89/1).
I (al-Albani) say: 'This chain is da'if. Its narrators are thiqah (trustworthy), except Khalid b. Tahman for the majority declared him da'if. Ibn Ma'in said, "He is da'if. He became confused ten years before his death. But, before that he was thiqah (trustworthy)."
~Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da'ifah wa al-Mawdu'ah wa Atharihah al-Sayyiah fi al-Ummah, vol. 10, p. 535, #4898.

***[b]I intend not to make this comment cumbersome because I would have analyze to the whole world how sheik al-Albani shot himself in the leg. The sheik claimed the "majority" declared Khalid as da'if but he can ONLY cited Ibn Ma'in. The sheik also claimed with no prove that Khalid became confused [b]in the last 10years of his life. Earlier Muhadith viewed it otherwise. And the same sheik al-Albani has treated many cases of "confusion" worst than that of khalid thereby, declaring such hadith Sahih. The biggest point according to the Sheik is "does the hadith in question narrated before or after such narrator became confused", and "what's the significant of his confusion".
@sino, I will refer you to one of research book of Toyib Olawuyi "Ali- the best of sahaba" p. 123 - 128. He excellently, expose the hasty judgment of sheik al-Albani in grading the chain da'if.[/b]


2. A corroborating hadith is recorded by 'Allamah al-Hindi (d. 975H):

Narrated 'Ali:
"Abu Bakar and 'Umar sought the hand of Fatimah in marriage from the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. But, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, refused their proposals. So, 'Umar said, "You are for her, O 'Ali." He (Ali) said, "What do I have apart from my armour, my camel and my sword?" So, Ali approached the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, one day and he (the Prophet) said, "O 'Ali! Do you have anything?" He replied, "My camel and my armour."

I mortgaged both of them. So, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, married Fatimah to me. When the news got to Fatimah, she wept. As a result, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, went to her and said, "Why are you weeping, O Fatimah? I swear by Allah, I have married you to the most knowledgeable of them, and the most clement of them, and [size=25pt]the first of them to accept Islam[/size] ."

Al-Hindi comments:
"Ibn Jarir (al-Tabari) recorded it and DECLARED IT SAHIH. Al-Dawlabi also recorded it in al-Dhurriyah al-Tahirah. "

~Kanz al-Ummal fi Sunan al-Aqwil wa Af'al, vol. 13, p. 98, #36370.

3. Imam al-Tabarani also recorded another version with different chain of same wording of the prophet (peace be on him and his household).

~Mu'jam al-Kabir {annotator: Hamadi b. 'Abd al-Majid al-Salafi}, vol. 1, p. 94 #156.

Al-Haythami comments:
"...it is mursal WITH A SAHIH CHAIN."

4. Imam Ibn Asakir (d. 571 H) records:
'Aishah narrates:
"Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, told me that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said to her, "Your husband is the most knowledgeable of the believers, and the first of them to accept Islam, and the most clement of them."

Imam Ibn Asakir also recorded further through different chains linking 'Ali, Fatimah, Asma b. 'Umays, 'Aishah (again).

~Ibn Asakir al-Shafi'i, Tarikh Madinah Dimashq, vol. 80, p.113; vol. 42, p. 132

5. Imam Ahmad b. Hanbali records:

'Ma'qil b. Yasar narrates:
"...He (the prophet) said (to Fatimah), "Are you not satisfied that I have married you to the first of my Ummah to accept Islam, and the most knowledgeable of them, and , and the most clement of them?"
~Abu 'Abd Allah Ahmad b. Hanbali al-Shaybani, Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) {annotator: Shu'ayb al-Arnaut}, vol. 5 p. 26, #20322.

There are many corroborating ahadith, these are the least to save space

Seriously, please tell me, how does this information increase us in Spiriyuality, Iman and Taqwa?

I had presented narrations, even balanced, and trying to explain what is meant by Abu Bakr (RA) being the first to accept Islam, but you just can't let it go, you went ahead to prove Ali (RA) is the first Muslim which i am not disputing with you...

Ibn Kathir said: It is clear that the people of his house, believed before anyone, his wife Khadija, his freed slave Zaid, Zaid’s wife Umm Ayman, “Ali and Waraqah.”

Tell me AlBaqir, Who accepted Islam after the above list?

mashallah, sino. You and Albaqir love epistles. You both seem so passionate about religious matters. May Allah bless you two. Amin. I definitely got your points all along, sino. There are plenty of views out there which still the same thing. Just wanted to let go.

Anyways, your Alfa, how is he doing?. Honestly, i didnt know at out-start he was your Alfa when you talked about ya lateef. I presumed he was average Joe you met on the street. Is he okay though?

Okay, looks like empiree is not alone anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58PZal2cwAI

sino:
To your questions Empiree and AlBaqir, I am no khidr, nor did Allah (SWT) give me knowledge of the unseen, and I no get super powers . I do not know anything other than the fact that a person afflicted with Jinn should consult a righteous scholar who would perform Ruqyah according to the Sunnah, and I’ll also advice the person to adopt the sunnah as much as possible in his/her way of life.

Fair enough brother. None of us ever claim to be something extraordinary. We are all striving towards perfection.

@underline, so you can consult an experienced Raqi. I thought your claim was "just adhere to the theoretical 'sunnah' documented down"!

Consulting a Raqi, that on its own is a form of Tawassul between the sick and the Curer, Allah. Do the sick not have direct access to the Curer, Allah? The case of 'blind' Nabi Yaqub (as) whose son, Nabi Yusuf (as) sent a blessed shirt to, to rub his eyes to regain his sight! ~Sura Yusuf.

Kindly tell me a single Raqi you (or tbaba 1234) knew or heard about who has not added or introduced 'something new' into the documented Sunnatic methodology of Ruqya?

sino:
@AlBaqir, I believe there is m’ujizah, and there is karaamah, the former is for Prophets, while the latter is for righteous servants of Allah. The case of the blind would be looked at within the purview of m’ujizah, and indeed, there were other blind men at the time of the Prophet (SAW), is there any report of him restoring their sight? e.g Abdullah bin Umm-Maktum.

The noble Prophet (peace be on him and his household) first advice the blind man that his blind condition is better for him than what he sought. When he insisted for cure, Allah restored his sight through His beloved.

Imagine how this kind of news will spread then. Naturally this will ginger all other muslim blinds to approach the holy Prophet (peace be on him and his household).

We can safely conclude that he advised them on what is better and they accepted rather than turning his back on them or unable to do the same Mujizat. This is a reliable possibility.

Can you do the same (now karamat) if the blind insist? Can I do the same? If we upgrade our spiritual proximity to Allah, His merciful door is widely open for us to lay our hands on His divine permit. Thereby we do those karamat by His leave.

How do we upgrade our spiritual proximity? Definitely by Adhering to the Quran and Sunnah. But how deep your understanding is will define your level of spiritual proximity.

Then what grade is our target? The least grade of muslim? The high grade of Mu'min? The higher grade of Muhsin and saliheen? The more grade of Sadiq/sidiqa? The most grade of Awliyah? The better grade of the beloved? The highest and best grade of Muqarabun?

What makes Prophets superior to each other (apart from the quality of task given)? What makes Sahaba superior to each other apart from common practice of wajibat and recommended sunnah? It is those EXTRA practice within the guideline of "Quran and Sunnah".

Muhammad (peace be on him and his household) will pray privately at night until his blessed feet swollen up, he will fast for consecutive days without break, etc. Bilal will not perform ablution at any time until he perform nawafil to the maximum level of exhaust.

sino:
I agree that we lack spirituality, and to think Salafis don’t know about spirituality, that they are only people of theories, is just naïve. Real salafis (not the trigger happy- takfiri merchant-salafi wannabe) are spiritual. Islamic spirituality is the deepest you can ever find, and it is pure beauty when you experience it, even if it is just for a day!

We never insinuate the underlined. And we agree in totality. The only problem is you sound with the description in the bracket @underline if we remove the word "takfiri" (you are definitely not that).

@bold, ma sha Allah kanan, I love that statement of yours. And I tell you that is practical experience we talk about. Have already talk about different grades ^

sino:
I have stated that, there are narrations of the prophet given us a fixed number of adhkar to do, and others there isn’t. I’ll rather do what the Prophet (SAW) specifically instructed, at the time prescribed, than do any other thing. Why? I know I have the opportunity to do more at other specific times given for ibaadaat without specificities in terms of count, form or duration, not only that, I am following the best of Mankind as instructed by Allah (SWT) in the Qur’an…

@underlined, so we are safe doing adhkars in thousands, millions depending on our capability. We are safe having an x fixed count based on spiritual experience!

What we are not safe at is legislating those fixed count of ours on people, formulating this and that reward. Even if our spiritual experience/manifestations revealed to us the enormous reward of our x fixed count, we can only share or recommend never legislate.

@bold, we say that "any other thing" is what is outside the scope of the shariah.

sino:
Let me give another example of what I have been trying to say all this while, take the example of salawaat on the Prophet (SAW), I’ll use the example of the brother with at least 5000 salawaat, we agree ikhlas (Sincerity) is important, so we look at the other aspect following the Sunnah on the following six guidelines given by Sheikh Uthaymeen (Rahimahullah)

The Fourth: al-Kayfiyyah (manner, mode): I follow the text in the way it was presented, I do not distort it, nor do I read it like I’m in a rap battle competing with Eminem, I recite it with the proper pronunciations and concentration.

I strongly believe that if we channel our acts according to the Sunnah, we will indeed gain spirituality; following the Sunnah is not an option in acts of worship, it is mandatory, if we truly say we believe, love the Prophet (SAW) and hope for salvation through Muhammad (SAW).
Allah (SWT) says:
"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur’an 3:31)

Nobody denied the facts above. What we kick against is "fanaticism", "rigidity", and "bid'aism".

If anybody brought a system not primarily documented in the "books", we flexibly examine the A, B, C, D of that system inline with our understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

For example, if in groups (jama'a) we gather ourselves in a secluded place (e.g Mosque), at a specific time and start dhikr in a particular posture (sitting, standing); pause, then reflect deeply on what we chant in dhikr.

Is it outside the scope of the Sharia judging with the fact that prophet primarily doesn't practice it with his sahaba? We said NO! It is still within the scope of the sharia.

"Those who remember Allah (aledhina yadhkuruna' llah) standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners). Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire.
~sura al-Imran: 191

We refuse to condemn vehemently that since such a practice is not documented, then we cannot do such. That's rigidity!

sino:
Let me make a quick analogy, a patient goes to the doctor who prescribed drugs to be used 3 times daily, the patient in his own wisdom, thinks due to the pains he is feeling, and wants a quick relief, he decided to use the drugs all at the same time, dismissing the instructions of the doctor, if care is not taken, this patient may lose his life!

A prescribed medicine to specific ailment is under Wajibat (obligatory acts). While extras like eating variety of fruits, nutritious food, blood tonics, multivitamins falls under "non-obligatory" ibaadat. What you take is what will work in your system. And if you don't, just make sure your wajibat is intact.

sino:
On a final note, from your responses so far, AlBaqir, is it wrong for me to infer that you believe we can jettison the Sunnah at will, by following our own initiative, experimenting (in a deen that is complete) to also arrive at the same result with that of the Sunnah, even when we know what is recommended/instructed, we can still go ahead and experiment with our own reasoning, and in doing that, we are still following the Sunnah?

@bold, here's my mawla and the mawla of every believers:
"Intelligence is not worthy of reliance when it is against obedience to God and makes you exit from the highway of Gods blessed guides Beware of companionship with the ignorant, he might wishes to benefit you but in reality he harms you." ~Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as).

Whatever is prescribed in the Qur'an and Sunnah must be follow to the letter not only theoretically but deeply to the fact that Allah will open other doors of idayah in your heart. What we say is that they also pave way for 'new' practices based on our understanding. Best scenerio was a sahaba who used al-Fatiha for Ruqya without the initial approval or taught of the Prophet. The sahaba possibly used his 'initiative' that Allah says Qur'an is Shi'fa (cure) and he adopted the "mother of the sura, al-Fatiha". What he did was perfectly within the scope of Qur'an and Sunnah; hence, the Prophet of Rahma endorsed it.

If such happened today without a reference in the book, the salafi-wannabe ideology will exclaim [size=30pt]BID'AH, HARAM, KUFR[/size]
How many things have been declared bid'ah, haram based on this!

sino:
This is not the time for experimenting, this is the time for following, the Sahabas had experimented under the watchful eyes of the Prophet (SAW), during the period of divine revelation, you can never have that back!

I seek refuge in Allah from innovation in the deen and what would lead me to it. Ameen

Did the sahaba experimented and exhaust all the happenings of life till Qiyamat? Never! So how do we tackle new issues and challenges of life today?

A case was brought to the 2nd Khalifa, Umar ibn al-Khattab, during his reign. A woman gave birth at 6months. Technically such a case never happened throughout the 23years of the Prophetic mission. So no practical experience for the Khalifa to make his rulings. Alas! The Khalifa, after consulting his legislative members, pronounced a death penalty for the woman saying its obvious she committed adultery that she must have been carrying the pregnancy before her husband slept with her.

The woman was about to be stoned, comes my Mawla and the Mawla of all believers 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, al-Mur'tadha, alahi salam. He asked the woman to be freed with explicit and unmatched exegesis of the holy Qur'an given below:

* One verse in the holy Quran says breast-feeding should be for 2years (24months)

* The other verse says both "pregnancy and breast-feeding" is within 30months

'Ali (as) said the woman carried her pregnancy for 6months and will breast-feed for 24months, all = 30months which Quran says.
***************

Today, what does Ulamas says about cloning, artificial insemination, surrogate mother, biotechnology, etc etc etc. Will all these just be declared "Haram" because its not practically mentioned in the Book of God and Sunnah of His prophet?

sino:
NB: @ AlBaqir,

1. You have raised issues in your responses which cannot be discussed on this thread further, I hope in sha Allah, Allah will grant me the opportunity to discuss them with you later, as some of it is the basis of the difference in aqeedah between the Sunni and the Shia

May Allah present a golden opportunity and preserve us.

sino:
2. In regards to the Qur’anic verses quoted, it is unfortunate you cannot see the correlation, calling on Allah (SWT), worshipping Allah (SWT), following the Prophet (SAW). The prophet (SAW) came to teach us how to call on Allah, how to worship Allah (SWT), without the Prophet (SAW) you can never know Ibaadah (Worship). Hope you will understand.

Those noble verses do not enter into the equation of Abu Bakar's lamentation. Period!

sino:
3. Tbaba1234 is not a mufasir, may Allah increase him in knowledge, but he made a beautiful thread on tafsir surah Fatha according to what he was thought by his teacher which I believe must have studied different tafsirs. I made reference to it thinking you would have come across the thread.

Amin atawa naa o bi jahi Muhammad, an-Nabiyy Rahma.

Kindly link me with the thread for ease access.

sino:
4. Unless you want to state otherwise, Ali (RA) followed the Sunnah of Muhammad (SAW), he was a follower of the best of mankind.

Assalam Alaykum.

In the word of my Mawla and the Mawla of all believers, 'Ali al-Murtadha (as), he says:

"From the time of his (the Prophet's) weaning, Allah had put a mighty angel with him to take him along the path of high character and good behavior through day and night, while I used to follow him like a young camel following in the footprints of its mother..."
~Nahj al-Balagha, vol.2 p. 82

What we claim based on the Quran, ahadith and historical facts is that 'Ali was the BEST follower of Muhammad. That is what make his master (saws) declared him as mawla of all believer.

Wa alaykum salam.

Albaqir, your last post here is like reading my mind. We seem to have a lot in common. The issue being discussed here is not bid'ah at all as opposing view wants us to believe. This is issue of madhhab.

Empiree:
Albaqir, your last post here is like reading my mind. We seem to have a lot in common. The issue being discussed here is not bid'ah at all as opposing view wants us to believe. This is issue of madhhab.

I feel you my brother.

Ibn Abbas said: “Whatever the Qur’an termed as Halal is Halal and whatever it deemed Haram is Haram and about which it remained silent, this is forgiven” (Abu Dawud)

Shah Abdul Haq Dehlwi, says in relation to the above hadith that: “The reason why ibn Abbas recited this was to let it be known that something can only become Haram by way of revelation and it was not permitted to make anything Haram through ones own desires” (Ash’atul Lum’aat Vol 3).

sino:
Seriously, please tell me, how does this information increase us in Spiriyuality, Iman and Taqwa?

I will pretend you didn't ask this question akhi. If every utterance of Muhammad (peace be on him and his purified ahl al-bayt) does not increase our Iman and Taqwa, then we should reboot that heart.

Even Ordinary greetings with non-muslims is a serious case in the sight of Allah not to mention what has to do with Aqeedah:
"And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet [in return] with one better than it or [at least] return it [in a like manner].Indeed, Allah is ever, over all things, an Accountant."
~sura Nisa:86

n

You from lagos, albaqir?

Empiree:
You from lagos, albaqir?

From Osogbo, Osun State. I schooled in Lagos (Secondary school, 1991 - 1997). Higher Inst. - Ilorin, kwara State. I reside there now with my family.

AlBaqir:
From Osogbo, Osun State. I schooled in Lagos (Secondary school, 1991 - 1997). Higher Inst. - Ilorin, kwara State. I reside there now with my family.

cool

AlBaqir:
From Osogbo, Osun State. I schooled in Lagos (Secondary school, 1991 - 1997). Higher Inst. - Ilorin, kwara State. I reside there now with my family.

oh that's nice. I colleged in ilorin actually

Empiree:
mashallah, sino. You and Albaqir love epistles. You both seem so passionate about religious matters. May Allah bless you two. Amin. I definitely got your points all along, sino. There are plenty of views out there which still the same thing. Just wanted to let go.

Anyways, your Alfa, how is he doing?. Honestly, i didnt know at out-start he was your Alfa when you talked about ya lateef. I presumed he was average Joe you met on the street. Is he okay though?

When it comes to epistles, i'm still a learner

My Alfa is fine, although i like calling him ustaz. Thank you for your concern.

AlBaqir: Fair enough brother. None of us ever claim to be something extraordinary. We are all striving towards perfection.

@underline, so you can consult an experienced Raqi. I thought your claim was "just adhere to the theoretical 'sunnah' documented down"!

Consulting a Raqi, that on its own is a form of Tawassul between the sick and the Curer, Allah. Do the sick not have direct access to the Curer, Allah? The case of 'blind' Nabi Yaqub (as) whose son, Nabi Yusuf (as) sent a blessed shirt to, to rub his eyes to regain his sight! ~Sura Yusuf.

Kindly tell me a single Raqi you (or tbaba 1234) knew or heard about who has not added or introduced 'something new' into the documented Sunnatic methodology of Ruqya?

LOL, @bold, where did I make such claim? There are traditions of the Prophet (SAW) performing Ruqyah, not only that, it is common knowledge also that people sought the Prophet (SAW) for prayers, which gives us the understanding to seek righteous people to guide us, and pray for us. There are also traditions which the prophet (SAW) encourages us to consult our brothers in faith, a classical example is the case of istikhara.
I know you have some preconceived notion about people who state that people should adhere to the Sunnah and nothing more, but you should try to understand people’s point of view before thinking they are being rigid or fanatical.

I have stated earlier that in terms of ibaadaat, sticking to the Sunnah is the surest way to guidance…

AlBaqir: The noble Prophet (peace be on him and his household) first advice the blind man that his blind condition is better for him than what he sought. When he insisted for cure, Allah restored his sight through His beloved.

Imagine how this kind of news will spread then. Naturally this will ginger all other muslim blinds to approach the holy Prophet (peace be on him and his household).

We can safely conclude that he advised them on what is better and they accepted rather than turning his back on them or unable to do the same Mujizat. This is a reliable possibility.

Can you do the same (now karamat) if the blind insist? Can I do the same? If we upgrade our spiritual proximity to Allah, His merciful door is widely open for us to lay our hands on His divine permit. Thereby we do those karamat by His leave.

How do we upgrade our spiritual proximity? Definitely by Adhering to the Quran and Sunnah. But how deep your understanding is will define your level of spiritual proximity.

Then what grade is our target? The least grade of muslim? The high grade of Mu'min? The higher grade of Muhsin and saliheen? The more grade of Sadiq/sidiqa? The most grade of Awliyah? The better grade of the beloved? The highest and best grade of Muqarabun?

What makes Prophets superior to each other (apart from the quality of task given)? What makes Sahaba superior to each other apart from common practice of wajibat and recommended sunnah? It is those EXTRA practice within the guideline of "Quran and Sunnah".

Muhammad (peace be on him and his household) will pray privately at night until his blessed feet swollen up, he will fast for consecutive days without break, etc. Bilal will not perform ablution at any time until he perform nawafil to the maximum level of exhaust.

As Muslims, we should Endeavour to seek the highest level we can get, but some things are just beyond us, they are meant for special people like the Prophets (‘Alayhim salam), and this is why I had to bring an explanation on mu’jizah and karaamah…

@bold, that is exactly what I am saying, your extra practice should be according to the Qur’an and Sunnah, but I know where we disagree, I shall state that subsequently.

Interestingly, I came across the classification of grades of following the Sunnah by the Sufi’s, I find it insightful and in line with my perspective….

"There are seven grades in following Resulullah:

The first [/b]one is to believe the rules of Islam and learn and do them. The following of all Moslems, savants, zahids (Those who do not set their hearts in wordly possesions.) and abids (persons who try to perform all kinds of worships) is in this grade. Their nefs (soul) does not belief Him. Allahu teala, pitying, accepts the heart’s believing only.

[b]The second one is, together with doing the commands, to do all of Resulullah’s words and habits and to purify the heart from evil habits. Those who walk in the way of tasawuf are in this grade.

The third one is to adapt oneself to all the states, spiritual pleasures and the things that comes to the heart, which occurred to Resulullah. This grade is obained in the rank which tasawuf calls Vilayet-l-Hassa. Here, the nefs, too, believes and obeys and all worships become real and perfect.

The fourth one is to be real and defectless in all auspicious deeds as well as worships. This is peculiar to the great who are called Ulema-i-rasihin. These savants with perfect knowledge understand the deep meanings and denotations of the Kur’an and hadiths. Such were the Ashab of all the Prophets. The nefs of all of them believed and became obedient. Following of this sort falls to the lot of either those who advance in the way of tasawuf and wilayet or those who who obey all the sunnets and abstain from all the bid’ats. Today, the world has been invaded by bid’ats, the sunnets having gone. Today, it has gone beyond posibility to find out the sunnets and embrace them and to get rid of the ocean of bid’ats. The bid’ats have become customs. Whereas, customs cannot build up the religion or the sheri’at, no matter how widely they have settled and spread and how beautiful they look. [This means to say that for reaching this grade it has been obligatory today to advance in the way of tasawuf. In the early centuries (of Islam) it was easy to follow all the sunnets. There was no need for tasawuf then.]

The fifth one is to adapt oneself to the perfect, high qualities peculier to Resulullah. These qualities cannot be obtained through knowledge or worshipping. They come only through Allah’s blessing and gifting. In this grade are the great prophets and the very few great ones of the ummet of Resulullah.

The sixth one is to adapt oneself to the perfect qualities of mahbubiyyet and ma’shukiyyet (to receive the hidden blessings that are given to the darling himself (Resulullah) in Resulullah: this is peculiar to those whom Allahu teala loves very much; it cannot be obtained through blessing; muhabbed (love) is necessary.

The seventh grade is for all the motes of man’s body to adapt themselves to him. The follower is so similar to the one followed that imitation goes away from the midst. He, too, as if like Resulullah, takes everything from the same source.

In defining tasawuf,

Tasawuf: The things which Allah and His messanger commanded and prohibited are called the Sheri’at. The things which were neither commanded nor prohibited but which are said to be good and useful to do or good and useful not to do, are halal (permitted). After having adapted oneself to the Sheri’at, it is called “tasawuf” to follow all these. In short, it is the Sheri’at to follow the commands and prohibitions of Allah and His Messanger. It is tasawuf to follow each of his manners, each of his attitudes that are not peculiar to him (the prophet). There are grades in tasawuf. It is disbelief and it is not Islamic to busy with tasawuf without following the Sheri’at.

The information which Allah teala sends to prophets through angel is called the sheri’at. Each Moslem learns the Sheri’at from masters. When a Moslem’s heart has been purified from sins, information on the Sheri’at comes to his heart by itself. That Moslem has reached the hakikat. For reaching the hakikat, it is necessary to strive and make progress in the way called tasawuf. The works that are done and the things that are acquired by entering this way until reaching the hakikat are called as the tarikat."

(Huseyn Hilmi Isik, Endless Bliss)

AlBaqir: We never insinuate the underlined. And we agree in totality. The only problem is you sound with the description in the bracket @underline if we remove the word "takfiri" (you are definitely not that).

@bold, ma sha Allah kanan, I love that statement of yours. And I tell you that is practical experience we talk about. Have already talk about different grades ^

I am long done with appellations; I am a Muslim, one who tries to follow the Sunnah (so you can call me Ahlu Sunnah). I have left that life of what is in the bracket, I do not condemn groups/people blanketly (unless they openly exhibit kufr and bid’ah), and I take what is good, and do away with what is bad from them. I have quoted from the asharis, the salafis, the madkhalis, the maturidis, the deobandis, the sufis and what have you…

AlBaqir: @underlined, so we are safe doing adhkars in thousands, millions depending on our capability. We are safe having an x fixed count based on spiritual experience!

What we are not safe at is legislating those fixed count of ours on people, formulating this and that reward. Even if our spiritual experience/manifestations revealed to us the enormous reward of our x fixed count, we can only share or recommend never legislate.

@bold, we say that "any other thing" is what is outside the scope of the shariah.

From the onset, I had not negated the bold, what I am advocating is people should not neglect and abandon the Sunnah, in chasing after some esoteric experimentation. I used an example of people not knowing the adhkar of morning and evening, but they are bent on doing Ya Lateef I million cos of one special effect in which in most cases are, wealth and power…What should be the priority AlBaqir? Following the best of Mankind or experimenting?

AlBaqir: Nobody denied the facts above. What we kick against is "fanaticism", "rigidity", and "bid'aism".

If anybody brought a system not primarily documented in the "books", we flexibly examine the A, B, C, D of that system inline with our understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

For example, if in groups (jama'a) we gather ourselves in a secluded place (e.g Mosque), at a specific time and start dhikr in a particular posture (sitting, standing); pause, then reflect deeply on what we chant in dhikr.

Is it outside the scope of the Sharia judging with the fact that prophet primarily doesn't practice it with his sahaba? We said NO! It is still within the scope of the sharia.

"Those who remember Allah (aledhina yadhkuruna' llah) standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners). Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire.
~sura al-Imran: 191

We refuse to condemn vehemently that since such a practice is not documented, then we cannot do such. That's rigidity!

Why didn’t you add “lying down on their sides” and doing dhikr in jama’ah? lol Fortunately, there are ahadiths about doing dhikr in jama’ah, and indeed, there had been a lot of argument in regards to this, especially when you take the hadith of Ibn mas’ood into cognizance…Scholars who are weary of innovation, who put all the narrations of dhikr into proper perspective, would rather have a ta’lim class, where they practically teach people the deen, they teach how to supplicate and do dhikr according to the Sunnah, how to reach a state of Islamic spirituality…I have been fortunate to be part of such gatherings, it is far from what some groups do in terms of doing dhikr nowadays.

Let me quote from my sufi book again:

“Zikr means to remember Allahu teala. And this will be done through the heart. It is not Zikr for many persons to assemble together, to shout “Hy!” or “Huy!”, to dance and whirl. Many things have been made up under the name of tarikat for a hundred years. The way of the great men of religion, of the murshids of tasawuf, has been forgotten. The ignorant and even sinners have become shaikhs and have commited sins under the name of zikr and worship… We should read the old, real books of the great men of religion, and correct our worships and thoughts in accordance with them. We should not believe the thieves of religion, who work behind the curtain of valuable names such as men of tarikat, sheikhs, murids, but we should abstain from them. ”
(Huseyn Hilmi Isik, Endless Bliss)

AlBaqir: A prescribed medicine to specific ailment is under Wajibat (obligatory acts). While extras like eating variety of fruits, nutritious food, blood tonics, multivitamins falls under "non-obligatory" ibaadat. What you take is what will work in your system. And if you don't, just make sure your wajibat is intact.

I get you brother, but that is not the point I was trying to make. It is about following the prescription, following the instruction of the doctor…another analogy is this, as a student who wants to write and exam let’s say mathematics, the examiner writes, solve the following quadratic equations using the almighty formula, instead of the student to use the almighty formula, he decided to use substitution method, he may get the answers correctly, but he failed to follow simple instruction and thus he would be penalized.
That is the way I see this issue.

AlBaqir: @bold, here's my mawla and the mawla of every believers:
"Intelligence is not worthy of reliance when it is against obedience to God and makes you exit from the highway of Gods blessed guides Beware of companionship with the ignorant, he might wishes to benefit you but in reality he harms you." ~Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as).

Whatever is prescribed in the Qur'an and Sunnah must be follow to the letter not only theoretically but deeply to the fact that Allah will open other doors of idayah in your heart. What we say is that they also pave way for 'new' practices based on our understanding. Best scenerio was a sahaba who used al-Fatiha for Ruqya without the initial approval or taught of the Prophet. The sahaba possibly used his 'initiative' that Allah says Qur'an is Shi'fa (cure) and he adopted the "mother of the sura, al-Fatiha". What he did was perfectly within the scope of Qur'an and Sunnah; hence, the Prophet of Rahma endorsed it.

If such happened today without a reference in the book, the salafi-wannabe ideology will exclaim BID'AH, HARAM, KUFR
How many things have been declared bid'ah, haram based on this!

I love this quote of Ali (RA), and this is what I have been trying to say. I had come with examples of where the Prophet (SAW) gave specific recommendations/instructions, and I stated that we must follow such recommendations/instructions; no amount of experimentation can top the guidance of Rasulullah (SAW). And if we disobey the prophet (SAW), we are indeed disobeying Allah (SWT)

I agree with the bold, but the “paving way for the new practices” is what I disagree with, especially in ibaadah.
The Sahabah on doing what he did, informed the Prophet (SAW), when you AlBaqir come up with new things, especially in the act of ibaadah, who do you meet for ratification and endorsement?

Quickly, lets look at the istikhara example again, I said the Prophet (SAW) thought his sahabas what to do for istikhara, and you said you could use surah Fatha for it, so my question is, who are you following in using surah fatha for istikhara? Who said you can use it? Why would you use alfatha when the Prophet (SAW) thought us what to do?

I hope you understand my stand?

hum, Sino, so you have idea all along but you gave us "igbo didi" all along?. You think I didn't know what I was saying perhaps?. Muslims get levels. that's the whole point here when it comes to beyond "foundational layer". Because some folks abuse it doesn't make it wrong.

AlBaqir: Did the sahaba experimented and exhaust all the happenings of life till Qiyamat? Never! So how do we tackle new issues and challenges of life today?

A case was brought to the 2nd Khalifa, Umar ibn al-Khattab, during his reign. A woman gave birth at 6months. Technically such a case never happened throughout the 23years of the Prophetic mission. So no practical experience for the Khalifa to make his rulings. Alas! The Khalifa, after consulting his legislative members, pronounced a death penalty for the woman saying its obvious she committed adultery that she must have been carrying the pregnancy before her husband slept with her.

The woman was about to be stoned, comes my Mawla and the Mawla of all believers 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, al-Mur'tadha, alahi salam. He asked the woman to be freed with explicit and unmatched exegesis of the holy Qur'an given below:

* One verse in the holy Quran says bosom-feeding should be for 2years (24months)

* The other verse says both "pregnancy and bosom-feeding" is within 30months

'Ali (as) said the woman carried her pregnancy for 6months and will bosom-feed for 24months, all = 30months which Quran says.
***************

Today, what does Ulamas says about cloning, artificial insemination, surrogate mother, biotechnology, etc etc etc. Will all these just be declared "Haram" because its not practically mentioned in the Book of God and Sunnah of His prophet?

Ma sha Allah, I do not have problem with things that are not part of fundamentals of the religion, and more reason of stating that I was particular about worship. Let me quote my sufi guy again (at this rate, I may become a sufi o )

"The actions that Resulullah did or abstained from are of two types:

The first type of actions is the ones which he did or abstained from as worships. Every Moslem has to adapt himself to these actions. Actions which do not conform with them are bid’ats. The second ones are the actions done as customs by the people of the city and the country where he had been to. He who dislikes them and says that they are unpleasant becomes a disbeliever. But it is not obligatory to do them. An action not conforming with them is not a bid’at. Doing or not doing them depends on the customs of one’s country and nation. They are in mubah section. They do not have anything to do with the religion. Each country has different customs. Even, the customs of a country may change in the course of time. [Ibni Abidin, while telling about the sunnets of ablution, explains the things which Resulullah did and used as customs and calls them Sunnet-i-zevaid and says that it is not a sin no to do them. Nevertheless, following Resulullah also in things pertaining to customs supplies one with many advantages and causes much happiness in this and the next worlds.]

Ibni Abidin, in telling about the kiraet (Reciting the Kur’an while standing in nemaz) in nemaz (prayer), says: “The things which disbelivers do and use are of two types:

“The first ones are the things which they do as customs, that is, the things which each nation, each country do as their customs. Out of these, doing or using the things that are not haram and that are useful to people is never a sin. Using trousers, fez, different types of shoes, spoons and forks, eating meals at a table, putting each person’s meal in a dish in front of him, and cutting the bread in slices with a knife and using various tools and gadgets are all actions concerning customs and are mubah (permisible). It is not a bid’at or a sin to use them. Resulullah wore the shoes special for priests.”….

(Huseyn Hilmi Isik, Endless Bliss)

From this, I can state where bid’ah, haram are applicable and where they are not, I do not mix the usul and the fur’u together, so all these issues you raised would be looked at thoroughly using ijtihad to arrive at a conclusion Islamically.

AlBaqir: In the word of my Mawla and the Mawla of all believers, 'Ali al-Murtadha (as), he says:

"From the time of his (the Prophet's) weaning, Allah had put a mighty angel with him to take him along the path of high character and good behavior through day and night, while I used to follow him like a young camel following in the footprints of its mother..."
~Nahj al-Balagha, vol.2 p. 82

What we claim based on the Quran, ahadith and historical facts is that 'Ali was the BEST follower of Muhammad. That is what make his master (saws) declared him as mawla of all believer.

Allahuma Salli ‘ala Muhammad wa ‘ala Ahlihi wa Ashabihi ajma’in

Empiree:
mashallah, sino. You and Albaqir love epistles. You both seem so passionate about religious matters. May Allah bless you two. Amin.

Really am not afraid to read no matter how voluminous a book is. In the same vein, I write, express myself as much as I. I always intend to give the much needed detail to those interested to read my 'epistles'.

Religious matters! That's my life. When I see active brothers dishing out religious infos with sound intellectualism, am always full of joy. That's why brothers like lanrexlan, sino seem to be religious library warmers. I enjoy them a lot. Rilwayne001 is Ahmad deedat of NL. They always keep me on my toes. I simply don't joke with my deen. Every other thing is secondary.

Amin to your prayers, Empiree. I pray more for you and your loved ones.

AlBaqir: I will pretend you didn't ask this question akhi. If every utterance of Muhammad (peace be on him and his purified ahl al-bayt) does not increase our Iman and Taqwa, then we should reboot that heart.

Even Ordinary greetings with non-muslims is a serious case in the sight of Allah not to mention what has to do with Aqeedah:
"And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet [in return] with one better than it or [at least] return it [in a like manner].Indeed, Allah is ever, over all things, an Accountant."
~sura Nisa:86

Indeed brother you are correct, but don’t you think it is based on context in which we use their words, for example, some people would quote Qur’an and ahadiths to mock and ridicule, and some people will quote to cause fitnah, spreading hate. It all depends on why and how they are being quoted…

I did not disagree with Ali (RA) being the first Muslim; I only tried to explain what is meant by AbuBakr (RA) being the first Muslim also. Personally, I see no reason we should be arguing about it, for it would not increase anyone of us in our responsibilities to Allah (SWT).

And Allah (SWT) knows best.

AlBaqir:
Amin atawa naa o bi jahi Muhammad, an-Nabiyy Rahma.

Kindly link me with the thread for ease access.

Ameen, here is the link

https://www.nairaland.com/1007823/journey-through-quran-amazing-quran

AlBaqir:
Rilwayne001 is Ahmad deedat of NL.

Indeed And tola9ja is Zakir Naik

sino:
LOL, @bold, where did I make such claim? There are traditions of the Prophet (SAW) performing Ruqyah, not only that, it is common knowledge also that people sought the Prophet (SAW) for prayers, which gives us the understanding to seek righteous people to guide us, and pray for us. There are also traditions which the prophet (SAW) encourages us to consult our brothers in faith, a classical example is the case of istikhara.
I know you have some preconceived notion about people who state that people should adhere to the Sunnah and nothing more, but you should try to understand people’s point of view before thinking they are being rigid or fanatical.


@bold, that is exactly what I am saying, your extra practice should be according to the Qur’an and Sunnah, but I know where we disagree, I shall state that subsequently.

@underlined, You should understand am just teasing you there akhi.

@bold, I needed to be doubly sure of your aqeedah. Many brothers today adopt aqeedah they don't even understand. And they disturb the society as a result. My brother used to call them "ignorant sincere"

Your last words^ what you can derive from the Qur'an (in hidaya/Huda, shifa'a, rahma et al) is beyond what is documented down in the books of ahadith & tafassirs..

What is sure is the Bukharis, the Muslims, the Tirmidhis et al absolutely do not document everything of the sayings and practice of Muhammad (peace be on him and his progeny), many info missing, and no doubt Muhammad explain ALL.

Individual spiritual experience can reveal more. Comprehensive understanding of Quran and Sunnah explore more doors of knowledge. However, whoever lacks the prerequisites, the primary and foundations guidelines is a liar to claim 'what is more'.

Niyyat - Shariat - Tariqqat - Haqq

You don't lack in Shari'at and claim Tariqqat (spiritual path). Shari'at must be complete even to the simplest practice before Tariqqat can be truly achieved. And this pave way for Haqq (truth, Allah).
Unfortunately, the "alu -ifas" we have today jump Shariat, claim tariqqat and boast ilm Haqq.

@sino, I gbadun your sufi sheik. That's what am talking about

sino:
I am long done with appellations; I am a Muslim, one who tries to follow the Sunnah (so you can call me Ahlu Sunnah). I have left that life of what is in the bracket, I do not condemn groups/people blanketly (unless they openly exhibit kufr and bid’ah), and I take what is good, and do away with what is bad from them. I have quoted from the asharis, the salafis, the madkhalis, the maturidis, the deobandis, the sufis and what have you…

Alhamdulillah for your life brother @underline. At the same time, while you quote A, B, C, D, shine your eyez

sino:
From the onset, I had not negated the bold, what I am advocating is people should not neglect and abandon the Sunnah, in chasing after some esoteric experimentation. I used an example of people not knowing the adhkar of morning and evening, but they are bent on doing Ya Lateef I million cos of one special effect in which in most cases are, wealth and power…What should be the priority AlBaqir? Following the best of Mankind or experimenting?

sino, you are very right; and honestly, we do not deny such happens. Our contrary view has always been "Is 'extras practices' allowed outside the documented ibaadat?"

* Fixed count of dhikr, Surah etc. And I believe we've reach a conclusion.

sino:
Why didn’t you add “lying down on their sides” and doing dhikr in jama’ah? lol Fortunately, there are ahadiths about doing dhikr in jama’ah, and indeed, there had been a lot of argument in regards to this, especially when you take the hadith of Ibn mas’ood into cognizance…Scholars who are weary of innovation, who put all the narrations of dhikr into proper perspective, would rather have a ta’lim class, where they practically teach people the deen, they teach how to supplicate and do dhikr according to the Sunnah, how to reach a state of Islamic spirituality…I have been fortunate to be part of such gatherings, it is far from what some groups do in terms of doing dhikr nowadays.

@underline, but in reality, the fact that Allah included it in the verse makes it allow. I remember my mum used to do dhikr lying down after she might have been exhausted while sitting. He (the Most High) doesn't care of your physical posture. What He wants is pure, humble, submissive and focused heart. And that's the essence of Ibaadat.

Again I gbadun your Sufi Sheik. Is he Turkish?