₦airaland Forum

truthman2012:
Evil is an action and not a creation. People act evil when God is not in their lives.

You create action, action doesn't just happen. God Himself practiced evil actions. Was it not evil of Him to annihilate innocent children and animals when He destroyed Sodom and Gomora. Is not evil of Him to allow suffering to happen? People of faith are also evil, evil is not kept aside for certain people. Is it not evil of the faithful to name call, judge and curse those different from them? History is mired with examples of christians attacking the innocent even though they weren't provoked and their excuse is that they are doing God's bidding.

They were heathens because they did not hear about God. God has a programme for every race and generation. When it was time for Africa, Assia, etc., the Gospel got to them. And for those ancestors who did not hear the gospel, God made a provision for them too. When Jesus died, the bible says : For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead (I Peter 6). Our ancestors also had the opportunity to hear the gospel even in their graves. Congratulations to those of them who believed it.

Again, hearsay. Not a single human being can claim they know for a fact what happens when one dies. Peter was just guessing (if there even was a Peter). Why was is not time for Africans know the gospel? What difference does it make if they learned it in 2020 or in 1689 or in 7BC? If they had learned in 2BC would the sky have fallen?

I do not believe in Catholic faith in the first place. They worship Mary contrary to the bible. There is nowhere Jesus said his mother should be worshiped. Then, was she poor because she was going to church? NO. She would have been poor the same if she was an atheist. That somebody is righteous is not a condition for being rich. Lazarus was a VERY poor man but yet recognized by God, while the rich man's name was not recognized in heaven (Luke 16:20-25) They call him rich man and not his name because his name is not in the Book of Life. This is not a parable, it was a reality.

It is not about what you believe. Catholics are christians. A priest is someone who as dedicated his life to God. You claimed people who practice evil deeds are people who do not know God. I cannot think of anyone who knows (or should know) God better than a priest.
I never said because she goes to church she must be rich. You said bad things happen to people who do not know God and basically deserve it. My example is about a woman who is devoted to God
(ie knows God) and has bad things happen to her over and over again. She prays listlessly yet God doesn't answer a single prayer instead more misfortune befalls her. My question to you was - because God allows this to happen does that mean she deserves it? The question has nothing to do with riches or poverty instead it's about hardship.

DieeDiee:
You create action, action doesn't just happen. God Himself practiced evil actions. Was it not evil of Him to annihilate innocent children and animals when He destroyed Sodom and Gomora. Is not evil of Him to allow suffering to happen? People of faith are also evil, evil is not kept aside for certain people. Is it not evil of the faithful to name call, judge and curse those different from them? History is mired with examples of christians attacking the innocent even though they weren't provoked and their excuse is that they are doing God's bidding.





Again, hearsay. Not a single human being can claim they know for a fact what happens when one dies. Peter was just guessing (if there even was a Peter). Why was is not time for Africans know the gospel? What difference does it make if they learned it in 2020 or in 1689 or in 7BC? If they had learned in 2BC would the sky have fallen?



It is not about what you believe. Catholics are christians. A priest is someone who as dedicated his life to God. You claimed people who practice evil deeds are people who do not know God. I cannot think of anyone who knows (or should know) God better than a priest.
I never said because she goes to church she must be rich. You said bad things happen to people who do not know God and basically deserve it. My example is about a woman who is devoted to God
(ie knows God) and has bad things happen to her over and over again. She prays listlessly yet God doesn't answer a single prayer instead more misfortune befalls her. My question to you was - because God allows this to happen does that mean she deserves it? The question has nothing to do with riches or poverty instead it's about hardship.

is that woman a jew?

truthman2012:
God is beyond human experiments. He is invisible as even you cannot see your own spirit

What in your knowledge caused the universe as nothing can cause something.

Many things are beyond experiment yet their existence can be prove. For example, kindness. It cannot be experimented but we know for a fact it exists because we can observe it and we can feel it.

timonski:
u have already read the content of that page, don't pretend. MR KNOW ALL, you insulted me saying i should get a refund from my alma mata. Now, tell me, who is the dunce? How can an atheist know nothing about science and logical reasoning? This is shameful!

I did not read anything. Read that link, it doesn't exactly require a rocket scientist to deduce it has absolutely nothing to do with what the rest of us are talking about. And I don't remember ever calling myself atheist or even using that word till now.

timonski:
is that woman a jew?

Please learn to read first before jumping in. Go back and follow the conversation. There is no woman.

UyiIredia:
Gravity and the other fundamental forces (eg electromagnetism) are not material, yet they have observable material effects.

And you know the fundamental forces are not material, how?

This is an unwarranted claim.

DieeDiee:
Many things are beyond experiment yet their existence can be prove. For example, kindness. It cannot be experimented but we know for a fact it exists because we can observe it and we can feel it.

Kindness is not a Being but a behaviour.

DieeDiee:
Many things are beyond experiment yet their existence can be prove. For example, kindness. It cannot be experimented but we know for a fact it exists because we can observe it and we can feel it.

Diee, billions of people also feel God in their lives, experience his power in their lives in divers ways, seen his works in people's lives and everywhere etc. That some other people have not felt or experienced his presence in their lives cannot nullify his existence as experienced by these billions of people across the globe.

DieeDiee:
That is the point! If He is so loving and caring of His creations why does He allow atrocities to happen to them? How can He sit back and cooly watch an innocent, young girl get kidnapped, raped and be forcefully married off to a Boko Haram soldier? How can he sit back and watch a young 4 year old malnourished child with sores, broken skin and sorry for an excuse scraps of dirty cloth for clothing cry as it scourers the floor in search for food? How does he sit back and watch a 6 year old child go down on its knees and open its mouth so that "uncle/grandpa/daddy" can pleasure himself? Is the Boko Haram soldier one of the faces of God? Is a 60 year old man sexually abusing a child a manifestation of God's characteristic? Wow, I'd much rather be heathen and go to hell as it cannot worse than this. You and your God cannot use sin as an excuse. What was He expecting if He failed to give Africans, Asians etc. their own Moses, Abram, Noah and company. He never sent Jesus to them so how can He turn around now and claim it is punishment for their heathen past when He had sat back century after century watching these nations practice their believe, even BLESSING them with riches and abundance! Lastly, my question remains: why does He need 50 billions years to execute His plan, why not now?

Ps: I don't hate God how can I hate something that does not exist? Besides, hate is such a waste of emotion.

Evil/sin are not God's characteristics and i never said so rather they provoke his characteristics (love,mercy,judgment and wrath) to manifest. love and mercy for the repentant heart, wrath and judgment for the unrepentant heart. All these people who are carrying out these evil you ve mentioned are not going free, they will face his judgment and eternal punishment at last. You may ask why he has to wait till the last day to punish them, thats how he wants it.

That notwithstanding, evil men still starts to receive the reward of their evill even while they are alive.

truthman2012:
Kindness is not a Being but a behaviour.

But it is still SOMETHING and it is real and observable which is more than can be said for God.

honourhim:
Diee, billions of people also feel God in their lives, experience his power in their lives in divers ways, seen his works in people's lives and everywhere etc. That some other people have not felt or experienced his presence in their lives cannot nullify his existence as experienced by these billions of people across the globe.

I asked for those experiences in my other post and not a single person (including you) was able to tell me. All people did was regurgitate what they had heard and quote me scriptures. Not a single person was able to testify to being touched by God in an unambiguous way. That you needed help and so-and-so came along and helped you does not prove God's existence and it is an ASSUMPTION that he was sent by God as there is no proof of that it could be just plain coincidence.

honourhim:
Evil/sin are not God's characteristics and i never said so rather they provoke his characteristics (love,mercy,judgment and wrath) to manifest. love and mercy for the repentant heart, wrath and judgment for the unrepentant heart. All these people who are carrying out these evil you ve mentioned are not going free, they will face his judgment and eternal punishment at last. You may ask why he has to wait till the last day to punish them, thats how he wants it.

That notwithstanding, evil men still starts to receive the reward of their evill even while they are alive.

Judgement day will be a little too late. The victim has already suffered and nothing can change that or take the pain away. Damage is done.

DieeDiee:
I asked for those experiences in my other post and not a single person (including you) was able to tell me. All people did was regurgitate what they had heard and quote me scriptures. Not a single person was able to testify to being touched by God in an unambiguous way. That you needed help and so-and-so came along and helped you does not prove God's existence and it is an ASSUMPTION that he was sent by God as there is no proof of that it could be just plain coincidence.

People might still respond to that thread much later. Some, like me, may not have enough time now to detail their experiences but later when they find enough time they will write. Some thread becomes active weeks or months after opening them so be patient with the thread. Its not yet time to conclude that people failed to respond. Some are yet to see the thread.

honourhim:
People might still respond to that thread much later. Some, like me, may not have enough time now to detail their experiences but later when they find enough time they will write. Some thread becomes active weeks or months after opening them so be patient with the thread. Its not yet time to conclude that people failed to respond. Some are yet to see the thread.

It's not just the thread in real life too. People will talk about "this other girl who blah blah" no one ever says I if they do the story is always ambiguous.

DieeDiee:
Judgement day will be a little too late. The victim has already suffered and nothing can change that or take the pain away. Damage is done.

Thats what i'm saying that God's concept for this world is not to make it a palatable place for us, free of pains etc. It is the new heaven and the new earth that he will make free of all these negatives.

We may ask why, but thats how he wants it. Theres nothing we can do about it than to face it.

DieeDiee:
It's not just the thread in real life too. People will talk about "this other girl who blah blah" no one ever says I if they do the story is always ambiguous.

yea we learn from different angles in life. Sometimes you learn from personal experiences and some other times you learn from the experiences of others. Its not bad if people give experiences of others that they may have learned from. No hard and fast rule concerning these learning processes.

ooman2:
And you know the fundamental forces are not material, how?

This is an unwarranted claim.

SMH at your ignorance. BTW what materials could they possibly be.

honourhim:
Thats what i'm saying that God's concept for this world is not to make it a palatable place for us, free of pains etc. It is the new heaven and the new earth that he will make free of all these negatives.

We may ask why, but thats how he wants it. Theres nothing we can do about it than to face it.

And like I said then that means God is an egotistical and cruel sadist. Only a sadist takes pleasure in a person's misery. He wants people to suffer (I quote from you: "God's concept for this world is not to make it a palatable place for us" and "thats how he wants it" ) yet He expects worship and praise for these sufferings? When He decides to throw you a small bone every now and then after making you beg (pray and fast) profusely you should be eternally grateful?

Story time: Imagine there is this rich kingdom with plenty for everyone but not everyone is getting because of the situation there. In this kingdom the king put a cruel man in charge and to do as he pleases. He did it knowing full well how cruel this man is. This man creates a culture of evil where you are allowed to rape, kill, steal, cheat the poor etc. There is no punishment for these crimes (remember it is our human laws that punish criminals not God) but instead you are told your suffering will be avenged at death. This king travels around the kingdom everyday. He can see the suffering his people are going through. Everyday millions of people come to the palace to beg for his mercy and his help. This king insists they must prove their loyalty and love to him that they must worship him (regardless of their suffering and the fact it is the king that is letting it happen). In any given street corner you find people singing praises, on their knees begging for mercy. Even though this king is getting the worship he wanted he doesn't take his people out of their misery instead he tells them he loves them and that they must continue to show their love and loyalty, that he has a plan for them but he will not execute it now in fact he'll first let their suffering get worse. When asked why he is allowing this suffering he says it's not him but his deputy. When asked why not fire him the king says he is a kind man who cannot do that but this king sees nothing wrong with beheading people who do not worship him but instead call him out on his behaviour.

Question: What is your take on this king? Do you think he is treating his people fairly? Do you think he is showing them love? Do you think what he is doing is okay because he's "got a plan"?

honourhim:
yea we learn from different angles in life. Sometimes you learn from personal experiences and some other times you learn from the experiences of others. Its not bad if people give experiences of others that they may have learned from. No hard and fast rule concerning these learning processes.

What I'm trying to say is everyone talks about "this one girl or boy" who no-one has ever met, no-one knows personally therefore no-one can question. There more "awesome" the story the further it happened. For example, when I was young the favourite story christians used to tell was about this American girl who was walking home alone one night. She prayed for God's protection because there had been a spate of rapes in her area. She bumped into the serial rapist but he did nothing to her except greet her and let her pass. (As these stories never quite make sense themselves so I'm not sure why or how the police knew this girl and rapist had met or I don't remember but anyway...). Eventually the rapist gets caught. The police asked him why he never raped that girl and the man replied it was because there were three big men walking with her. Now the story doesn't mention the rapist's name or the girl's name and it also doesn't mention which city the story happens in making it impossible to verify. Similarly to the girl who joked to her mother that God must sit in the car boot because the car is full. She and her friends got into a car accident and the car was totalled except for the boot. When the boot was opened by emergency services a tray of unbroken eggs was found (where the girl joked God must sit). Again no name, no city, no way to verify.

davien:
truthman2012
You've said nothing comes from nothing then how come "god" is a something that comes from nothing....don't those points contradict?

If God came from something, that thing is God.

The final source of all creation is God

DieeDiee:
But it is still SOMETHING and it is real and observable which is more than can be said for God.

Since you believe in 'SOMETHING' and 'NOTHING' thing, and that it is SOMETHING that causes SOMETHING and that NOTHING can cause SOMETHING, it should not be difficult for you to believe it was God that caused the Universe. The Big Bang theory states the Universe stated from 'small singularity' which is also SOMETHING caused by SOMETHING and that something is what?

chiedu7:
If God came from something, that thing is God.

The final source of all creation is God

And how do you know that?

truthman2012:
Since you believe in 'SOMETHING' and 'NOTHING' thing, and that it is SOMETHING that causes SOMETHING and that NOTHING can cause SOMETHING, it should not be difficult for you to believe it was God that caused the Universe. The Big Bang theory states the Universe stated from 'small singularity' which is also SOMETHING caused by SOMETHING and that something is what?

Firstly, YOUR article said nothing creates something and YOU agreed. YOU and YOUR article puntered about cause and effect.
Secondly, I have answered you already and told you atoms make up matter eg the small singular mass that expanded and exploded.

We have turned this matter upside down, side ways and I always stuck to your logic when countering you eg using YOUR definition of the universe, YOUR cause and effect requirement but no matter what logic you use we end up at the same place: there is absolutely no proof or logical reason to justify the belief that God exists.

What is atom?

Is it something or nothing?

truthman2012:
What is atom?

Is it something or nothing?

I don't have to prove anything. That nothing cannot create something is YOUR argument. Why are you trying to prove me wrong by disproving YOUR premise?

Christians I'm still waiting for an answer. I will post my question again.

Story time: Imagine there is this rich kingdom with plenty for everyone but not everyone is getting because of the situation there. In this kingdom the king put a cruel man in charge and to do as he pleases. He did it knowing full well how cruel this man is. This man creates aculture of evil where you are allowed to molest, kill, steal, cheat the poor etc. There is no punishment for these crimes (remember it is our human laws that punish criminals not God) but instead you are told your suffering will be avenged at death. This king travels around the kingdom everyday. He can see the suffering his people are going through. Everyday millions of people come to the palace to beg for his mercy and his help. This king insists they must prove their loyalty and love to him that they must worship him (regardless of their suffering and the fact it is the king that is letting it happen). In any given street corner you find people singing praises, on their knees begging for mercy. Even though this king is getting the worship he wanted he doesn't take his people out of their misery instead he tells them he loves them and that they must continue to show their love and loyalty, that he has a plan for them but he will not execute it now in fact he'll first let their suffering get worse. When asked why he is allowing this suffering he says it's not him but his deputy who is the cause of the suffering. When asked why not fire him the king says he is a kind man who cannot do that. Ironically, this king sees has been known to behead people who do not worship him but instead call him out on his behaviour.

Question: What is your take on this king? Do you think he is treating his
people fairly? Do you think he is showing them love? Do you think what he is doing is okay because he's "got a plan"?

Ps you are not allowed to say you can't compare God to man because we are not comparing God only the situation. The question is about your opinion of this kingdom. As a human judging a human kingdom what would you feel about the king and please be honest.

DieeDiee:
And like I said then that means God is an egotistical and cruel sadist. Only a sadist takes pleasure in a person's misery. He wants people to suffer (I quote from you: "God's concept for this world is not to make it a palatable place for us" and "thats how he wants it" ) yet He expects worship and praise for these sufferings? When He decides to throw you a small bone every now and then after making you beg (pray and fast) profusely you should be eternally grateful?

Story time: Imagine there is this rich kingdom with plenty for everyone but not everyone is getting because of the situation there. In this kingdom the king put a cruel man in charge and to do as he pleases. He did it knowing full well how cruel this man is. This man creates a culture of evil where you are allowed to rape, kill, steal, cheat the poor etc. There is no punishment for these crimes (remember it is our human laws that punish criminals not God) but instead you are told your suffering will be avenged at death. This king travels around the kingdom everyday. He can see the suffering his people are going through. Everyday millions of people come to the palace to beg for his mercy and his help. This king insists they must prove their loyalty and love to him that they must worship him (regardless of their suffering and the fact it is the king that is letting it happen). In any given street corner you find people singing praises, on their knees begging for mercy. Even though this king is getting the worship he wanted he doesn't take his people out of their misery instead he tells them he loves them and that they must continue to show their love and loyalty, that he has a plan for them but he will not execute it now in fact he'll first let their suffering get worse. When asked why he is allowing this suffering he says it's not him but his deputy. When asked why not fire him the king says he is a kind man who cannot do that but this king sees nothing wrong with beheading people who do not worship him but instead call him out on his behaviour.

Question: What is your take on this king? Do you think he is treating his people fairly? Do you think he is showing them love? Do you think what he is doing is okay because he's "got a plan"?

The picture you painted here does not truly represent God.

While the king you presented here has no other plan beyond his kingdom that you described here, the issue is different on God's side.

God is a creator who has his concepts i still say. He has two ultimate places of eternal stay and reward beyond the earth. The new heaven and the new earth is a place of total comfort and enjoyment forever while the lake of fire is a place of total punishment forever. The earth is a temporary place with a combination of both comfort and discomfort. This earth is not the end point as in the case of the king in your story whose one kingdom is the beginning and the end of the story.

The earth is like a place where the game of which of the two divides one has to choose is played. If you play by the rules of the game you end up in the place of comfort and if you play contrary to the rules of the game you end up in the place of punishment. The game of life is majorly played by us as creatures with higher reasoning (and with minimal interference by God). It is we that choose whether to commit evil or not. Yes God may or may not interfere in some cases because of the fact that his concept is for us to play the game by ourselves having given us the brain, energy, reasoning ability and other things to sort these things out here.

Somehow like a coach who has provided the athletes with the necessary techniques for winning and its left for him to put it to work and win or fail to put it to work and lose out.

African societies are suffering highly today not because of God but because of how we are playing our game. If we play the game of life well our society will get better and evil and misery will reduce drastically. yet it doesn't mean that life will be entirely free of pain and discomfort.

The issue of whether God is right or wrong in his concept does not really matter here because even if we think God's concept is bad, there's nothing any of us can do about it. The best is to face it, play by the rules and enjoy an eternity of comfort.

How is what God is doing different? Anyway I asked you not compare the king and God because I knew you (christians) would use it as a cop out. I asked you look at the situation and judge that. But just for you ... imagine the king has promised his subjects another land where they'll enjoy abundance and never have to work again but to get to this land they need to prove their love and loyalty by praising his greatness and bearing with their suffering.

DieeDiee:
How is what God is doing different? Anyway I asked you not compare the king and God because I knew you (christians) would use it as a cop out. I asked you look at the situation and judge that. But just for you ... imagine the king has promised his subjects another land where they'll enjoy abundance and never have to work again but to get to this land they need to prove their love and loyalty by praising his greatness and bearing with their suffering.

Of course if there is a far better place ahead then thats the big picture and it means i wont bother much about the harsh conditions I'm given in this temporary abode in order to get to the land of comfort which is eternal. There is an adage in my place that says- "aguu nwere hope adighi egbu egbu"(the hunger wey get hope of food no dey kill) .

A maximum of 100 years of age(or a little above it in rare cases) in this temporary and uncomfortable world cannot be compared with an eternity in the new heaven and the new earth that is full of bliss, comfort and free of pain, sorrow,death, evil and discomfort.

If there is no big picture, like in the case of the king and his kingdom in your story, then the whole scenario doesnt make sense. It means the king is just being quite unfair.

honourhim:
Of course if there is a far better place ahead then thats the big picture and it means i wont bother much about the harsh conditions I'm given in this temporary abode in order to get to the land of comfort which is eternal. There is an adage in my place that says- "aguu nwere hope adighi egbu egbu"(the hunger wey get hope of food no dey kill) .

A maximum of 100 years of age(or a little above it in rare cases) in this temporary and uncomfortable world cannot be compared with an eternity in the new heaven and the new earth that is full of bliss, comfort and free of pain, sorrow,death, evil and discomfort.

If there is no big picture, like in the case of the king and his kingdom in your story, then the whole scenario doesnt make sense. It means the king is just being quite unfair.

Ha ha ha... You are deliberately skating around the issue because you know it's not fair and it's cruel of the king to not fire the deputy and free his people from the suffering.

Btw earlier you had said something about Africa suffering because of the way they play the game. True but it is God who designed and created the game board so God is still liable :p

DieeDiee:
Ha ha ha... You are deliberately skating around the issue because you know it's not fair and it's cruel of the king to not fire the deputy and free his people from the suffering.

Btw earlier you had said something about Africa suffering because of the way they play the game. True but it is God who designed and created the game board so God is still liable :p

Nneoma I'm not skating around rather I'm looking at God based on his person as written in the scripture and the king you wrote about based on your writings of him.

As for Africa, God gave us brain to reason like he gave others, resources as he gave others. We are the ones mismanging these things. God is not the one that told us not to make good use of our brain(though some do make good use of their brain). When some of us travel oversees we behave well but when we come back here we slide back to our awkward style. That's the point I was trying to make there. Its not as if the developed countries are perfect anyway. They started like us and got to where they are. We shall get there too with time. That's life.

honourhim:
Nneoma I'm not skating around rather I'm looking at God based on his person as written in the scripture and the king you wrote about based on your writings of him.

As for Africa, God gave us brain to reason like he gave others, resources as he gave others. We are the ones mismanging these things. God is not the one that told us not to make good use of our brain(though some do make good use of their brain). When some of us travel oversees we behave well but when we come back here we slide back to our awkward style. That's the point I was trying to make there. Its not as if the developed countries are perfect anyway. They started like us and got to where they are. We shall get there too with time. That's life.

Developed countries are built on the back, sweat and tears of 3rd world countries. God, if He exists, still played a role you cannot run away from that no matter how much you try. It spins but it always lands back at God. I cannot speak for Nigeria but in my country as in most previously colonised countries what mostly weakened those nations were supernatural and had nothing to do with their brains. Drought, famine and disease brought by whites those are not man-made or man controlled but creations of God. White people also had superior military power. Prior to white people landing in Africa, Africans had no need for superior military power having traded and interacted with other nations for centuries without threat so you cannot blame them and say they should have been prepared. They had no reason to need superior military power.

The king and his kingdom are an exact reflection of God, the world, the Lucifer excuse and what is happening in the world.