Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 12:45am On Jan 25, 2015 |
ayoku777:Yes Jesus already said He is ONE WITH GOD( In John 10:30, Jesus said that "I and my Father are one."...) using your so called "objective human analogy".. i am not one with my biological Father.My dad cannot impose his will on me.which explains what PAUL THE apostle says here :"Thought it not robbery to be equal with God.". Which is in perfect HARMONY with the OT scripture of ONE GOD called YHWH or YAHWEH=JEHOVAH: Means, Self-existent One (Ex.3:14) For Jesus claim of I AM is sufficient. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 1:33am On Jan 25, 2015 |
Bidam: As long as you agree Jesus has a God; we've crossed a major hurdle. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Emusan(m): 2:10am On Jan 25, 2015 |
RikoduoSennin:And Jesus is also Almighty God (Revelation 1:  Try replacing the word beginning from Genesis 1:1 and see its mean changed. Eg "In the origin/source God created the heavens and the earth". Yes it will change but does it change when use with Revelation 3:14? it doesn't! because both Genesis and Revelation are unparalleled statement. Translators saw the words origin/ source and still choose beginning. There is a reason for that. Really!!! You'll see how you violated your own statement below. The Father is the beginning of WHAT? Are you asking me? I asked you question and you're asking me a gain Jesus is "the beginning of God's creation" is not just a phrase, Revelation 3:14 mentions Jesus' titles. Can we apply this title to the Father? The question you still fail to answer is what does the beginning mean? So Firstborn does not have it regular meaning because it was used on Jesus eh? Who says so? Now you said in the above that the translator must have a reason of using the word THE BEGINNING instead of ORIGIN or SOURCE, THEN DID YOU KNOW THAT PAUL MUST HAVE A REASON OF USING THE WORD FIRSTBORN INTSEAD OF FIRSTCREATED? Pre-eminence (Abj): better than all others, outstanding. Is Jesus better than the Father? 1 corithians 15:27 exempted the Father from all that. Then who talks about the Father here? The bible never specify which whether it was human life or heavenly life that was GRANTED to JESUS, so it goes to show that it was both- since it compares Jehovah's and Jesus life ( one is self existent while the other was GRANTED) To say the Bible never specifies it is a pure false that means you just took that verse out of its context by failing to observe the preceding & next verse. Jesus didn't stop at given life also went on to say authority. Please quote me where I said the above. To set matter straight, Isaiah mentions Jehovah, and Jesus came in his Father's name. Answered! Is the representative equal in rank to the president or can he be the same as the president? Then who claimed this? Coming in the president name does not mean when he goes back to the president he still has that same authority, does it? But the Bible says Jesus still have the same authority. Now the bold section is your opinion, I don't think that is the point of God being called "invisible" or is there another meaning of that word? You're attacking a strawman here, Angels are INVISIBLE but do people ever see Angels before? The onus is on you and I know that you will quickly reject this when Colossians 1:16 says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible...," Psalm 83:18 says otherwise "Let them Know that you ALONE whose name is Jehovah is the Most high over all the earth"- Jesus/Yehoshua is a derivative of Yahweh/Jehovah not the other way around. Was Psalms taking about the Godhead or the Father? If Jesus is Yahweh in the Flesh, does that not imply that they are THE SAME? Yahweh is name for the Godhead in the OT. The Father and the Son are not the same thing. It was a Resurrected [size=14pt]Jesus who has all the authority given back to him[/size] that said he is "Going to his God" @ John 20:17 @bolded-According to you The authority was given BACK TO HIM which means He possesses the AUTHORITY BEFORE. After stephen saw Jesus in Heaven, Jesus later said the words recorded @ Revelation 3:2,12. [size=14pt]So human Jesus did not have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in him,[/size] Is it Stephen who saw Jesus when the word of Revelation 3:2,12 made or John? Because I don't know you arrived at Stephen and Revelation is that it? He dropped his God title and reclaim it when? When did Jesus become a God back again? Read Phil 2:6, He is still God but with additional nature (FLESH) Ahmed is a General, Abacha is a General and Head of State. Are they equal in rank? Then who says so? Jesus is a Mighty God, Jehovah is both a Mighty and Almighty God. And Jesus is also both Mighty and Almighty God. I asked because of the implication that if Jesus have fellows who are not Jehovah nor Holy Spirit- it says a lot about what kind of God he is? It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9. See the bold section, You replied my question by giving me an assignment. How can I answer a question I asked which is not a rhetorical question? So that you can see how ridicule your question is because I'm wondering how Jesus how is the FIRSTBORN of all creation could have a fellow? A mystery, since the bible is silence on this issue, I don't wish to say what I am not sure of. So you believe in mystery  and when some Trinitarians say TRINITY is a mystery you'll reject it.I know you try to play smart here because if you say heaven was before Jesus then Jesus can't be FIRSTBORN of all creation and if Jesus comes before heaven it leads us to where did He stay? Surely He must have lived with the Father in eternity before heaven was created and ONLY GOD CAN LIVE IN ETERNITY which made Jesus far far different from other God you're trying to equate with Him. As per Jesus Fellows- it is not important to the topic, so we can drop it. No I can't because how FIRSTBORN of all creation have a fellows? My apologise, I thought the purpose of you quoting Isaiah 40:3 was to link Jehovah who was mentioned there has the one who came in the FLESH as Jesus christ. Am I wrong? Yes I mean Yahweh who spoke in Isaiah 40:3 was the one we see in the FLESH you can only get confused when you think Yahweh is ONLY the Father. Please don't define the word HEIR a different way. Did I? You said Jesus created everything, Are you denying it? how can he be a HEIR to inherit everything again if everything belongs to him. How can God adopt us as a children when His the one who created us? Yes, it is a question. Why would humans be called Heirs to God and fellow/co-heirs with Christ? If Jesus were Almighty God, humans would have been only his heirs. The question I asked you boycott it, who made you fellow/co-heir with Christ? @the bold section, Jesus never said he is God, so Why would you say I bet it you didn't understand my point, do you? Finally we are in agreement, The God who sent Jesus is also Jesus' God. Agree with you! mba, I know you misunderstood that statement too. I believe you mean A MIGHTY God. if Jesus is a Mighty God, is He still in the same category of other people called God (according to you) because you've already claimed He was not the only one called God in the Bible. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by CANTICLES: 6:01am On Jan 25, 2015 |
Emusan: 1) Can u prove the above as true ?, then show us where captivator used the word " Firstcreated" ?? If u cant, it will be declared as an outright lie . 2) am awaiting ur response to ayoku777's question: Do u agree that Jesus have a God ? If u say " YES" , then all argument will end since you now belive Jesus himself has a Supreme God ) ^^ But If you said " NO" , answer this: why is reference made to " The GOD OF Jesus Christ" Ephesian 1:17 if he doesnt have a God ? 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Emusan(m): 12:53pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
CANTICLES: This is what I wrote "...way you misapply the word FIRSTBORN by ALWAYS CHANGING it to FIRSTCREATED" NOTICE the underlined word... I was talking about THE MEANING he's giving to the word FIRSTBORN which also placed Jesus as FIRSTCREATED, or is Jesus not the FIRSTCREATED according to JW? Don't be too forwarded next time without getting how someone CAREFULLY constructs statement. 2) am awaiting ur response to ayoku777's question: Do u agree that Jesus have a God ? If u say " YES" , then all argument will end since you now belive Jesus himself has a Supreme God ) So it's only ayoku777's question you can see but you couldn't see my questions he didn't attempt at all  But If you said " NO" , answer this: why is reference made to " The GOD OF Jesus Christ" Ephesian 1:17 if he doesnt have a God? If you read my previous post you will see where I answer his question. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Eberex(m): 12:57pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: God didn't create Jesus. Mind the way you construct your english. Jesus has always existed with God the father from the beginning. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 1:10pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
ayoku777:God is uncreated. Jesus is the creator and all things are done by the Holy Spirit.SO GOD CREATED THE WORLD THROUGH JESUS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The 3 agree and they are ONE...This is the mystery Paul talked about. and the book of revelation is way above your pay grade. God is in 3 persons. There is nothing like multiple gods you and your friends are advocating in scriptures. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Eberex(m): 1:18pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
Bidam: You couldn't have said it better. Cool |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Emusan(m): 1:55pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
Actually, you never attempt any of the questions I asked you but just let me just your post. ayoku777: Likewise me too To beget and to pro-create are the same thing. If it is the "-create" in "pro-create" that is the issue, you can replace it with beget. Unless you don't agree Jesus is also begotten. the question I asked here is in what way was Jesus BEGOTTEN is it through creation or what? Mind you what God beget IS ALSO GOD (the same nature) just as man beget man (the same nature). The purpose of asking you those questions is to know how you understand the word BEGOTTEN Are you guys trying to say there is no objectivity in spiritual matters? Please can you humbly tell me the part of my post you misunderstood that warrant all these nonparallel post with the questions I asked you? You asked what kind of a God Jesus is? So this God that has a God, is it of the same nature with His God? If you clear yourself on the word BEGOTTEN then I'll know what to say next. When Jesus entered TIME and SPACE that is when He BECAME part of creation the Father becomes His God. Let me say this again, The Deity of Jesus wasn't about His life on earth (WHEN HE BECAME PART OF CREATION) but His existence before His birth because He was also 100% human in His 33 years of life on earth and God is the God over every creations |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 2:10pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
I was getting really tired of typing yesterday and sleep got the best of me -i was making typos. Now let me begin by saying: "I and my Father are one" does not mean "I and my Father are equal in authority". The church has also been made one in the Godhead (Father and the Son); just like the Father and the Son are one. John 17v21 -That they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US (Father and Son): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. As the Father and the Son are one, the Father (by request of the Son) has made the Father, the Son and the Church one too. So does that "oneness" make the church equal in authority with the Father or the Son? Absolutely NOT! Jesus Christ is still the Head and God of the church, and the Church is still subject to Him; and will forever be. So also "I and my Father are one" doesn't mean "I and my Father equal in authority". The Father is still the Head and God of Jesus (Rev 3v12); and Jesus is still subject to the Father, and will forever be. (1Cor 15v28) Equality with God according to Phil 2v6; does not mean equality in authority with the Father, any more than "I and my Father are one" means "I and my Father are equal in authority". When Jesus walked the earth as the Son of man, He called the Father "The one true God"(John 17v3) When He hung on the cross as the lamb of God, He called the Father "My God" (Matt 27v46) When He rose from the dead as the resurrected Son of God, He called the Father "My God" (John 20v17) After He ascended and became glorified and enthroned in heaven, He still called the Father "My God" (Rev 3v12) And at the end of the age, when Jesus is enthroned on earth; according to Paul's revelation, Jesus will remain subject to the Father forever (1Cor 15v28) All these verses establish and emboss the basic truth; that the Father is the God of Jesus, He is greater than Jesus and Jesus is subject to the Father -as Son of man, lamb of God, resurrected Son of God, glorified and enthroned High priest and coming king FOREVER. You can tip toe round this verses all you want; it won't magically mean any other thing apart from the obvious meaning; -Which is that the Father is greater than Jesus, both in His humanity and in His divinity; and Jesus will remain subject unto the Father for all eternity, even after His enthronement on earth. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by CAPTIVATOR: 2:16pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
Eberex: READ Rev 3:14, Lidell and Scott's Greek- English Lexicon lists " beginning" as the first meaning of ar-khe. READ Proverb 8:22 , many bible commentators agree that the Son is reffered to as wisdom personified. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 2:19pm On Jan 25, 2015 |
Emusan: You can't be begotten and be created at the same time. You are either created or begotten but not both. A man can create a car, a phone, a watch; but a man can only beget a man. But equality in humanity (or divinity) is not equality in authority. A statement I've made so many times, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record already. To beget or be begotten means to "give birth to" or "to bring forth" or to "born" Now if Jesus is begotten of the Father, according to the scriptures; then it means even Jesus has a source. He came out of the Father. He was begotten, then He created all things. It means only the Father came out of nothing and from nowhere; -only the Father is SOURCE-LESS. Jesus didn't come out of nothing; He was begotten of the Father. That's why I said Jesus is the God with a God, the Father with a Father, the Head with a Head, and the creator that was begotten. The Father did not become greater than Jesus from when He came into the world; it was from eternity past -from when He was begotten. Or do you disagree with me, that He that is begotten has a source, unlike He that begat? 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 1:34am On Jan 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: I must commend your sincerity so far. however, that the Zechariah you quoted was applied to Jesus does not mean that Jesus is Jehovah. When Jehovah has a representative, He often speaks as if His representatives were Him. Since Jehovah sent Jesus, He can speak as if He was the one receiving the punishment. Even in the "OT", some Angels are called Jehovah. Not that they are Him, but because they represented God. How much more the second in command in the Universe! Jesus said similar thing of his disciples. “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” Can we forget that the ill-treatment meted out to his disciples were taken personal by Jesus? Matt 25:35-40. Can we remember when Jesus asked Saul 'why are you persecuting me'? Acts 9:4 Jehovah took it personal too at 1Samuel 8:4-7 Jesus Christ represented God so well, that hearing Jesus was like hearing Jehovah. Jesus stock to the commandment Jehovah gave him. John 12:48, 49 In the book of Zech 11:12, 13, Zechariah told of what happened to him when he requested of his wages. They gave him 30 pieces of silver. Now, the thing happened to Zechariah, but God took it personal, and Jehovah instructed Zechariah to throw the money away. Jehovah took it personal because Zechariah bears His word. This does not make Zechariah Jehovah. Jesus presents God's word as he was taught, so he bears God's message. As such, God can say things as if he was the one undergoing the suffering. Jesus said: John 5:19 "Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner." Again, that experience of Zechariah was applied to Jesus. This does not make Jesus Jehovah just like it does not make Zechariah Jehovah. 2. Jer 23:6 does not make Jesus Jehovah either. Check the meaning of Jehozadak, which never meant that he was Jehovah. Also at Jer 33:16, Jerusalem was to be called "Jehovah is our righteousness". This doesn't make her Jehovah. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 2:44am On Jan 27, 2015 |
ayoku777 You are adding to the word of God here. Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah, neither did Jehovah occur in those verses. Jesus was just stating the relationship he has with his Father which makes him God's son, and the Jews called that blasphemy. Don't credit the jews with such scriptural knowledge. They don't always become sincere when it comes to Jesus. How can God's son mean blasphemy? Secondly, That verses 34-35 is talking about human judges in the pre-christian era. These people that were called gods were not even good judges. They were rendering unjust judgment. Jesus was stating that even if he was called a god, what is the big deal when unjust judges were even called such. Of course, if you are a spirit son of God you can be called a god, and Jesus came from heaven. Its just a title. Don't stretch the account any further. Jesus never said he was Jehovah. By saying "I and the Father are one" means Jesus is Jehovah at John 10:30, it also implies that the body of Christ will soon start answering Jehovah individually. John 17:20, 21. Is that correct? 3. John 5:26 - This verse does not mean that Jesus is self-existent. Jesus was just showing from verse 24-25 his power which Jehovah has given him to give life to people by resurrecting them to eternal life. John 11:25 |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 7:23am On Jan 27, 2015 |
JMAN05: About Jerusalem being called YHWH-Tisdkenu. It is clear that in the bible days many cities and nations are named after the people that started the cities; just like Israel is named after Israel (Jacob). So if the future Jerusalem is named YHWH-tisdkenu, it only means it is the city YHWH personally built. But this principle can not be used when it is used as the name of a man. A man CANNOT have "YHWH" in his or her name IF HE IS NOT YHWH. Jews can have "Yah" in their name as a prefix or suffix; but not YHWH. Only YHWH can have YHWH in His name. YHWH is a very sacred name of God for the Jews, and it is never put in their names. When they want to honour God by being named after Him, they put "Yah" as a prefix or suffix in their names -BUT NEVER YHWH A jew can bear Solomon, but never YHWH Shalom. A jew can bear Samuel, but never YHWH Shammah. A jew can bear Yahoshua (Joshua) but never YHWH Yah-shah; even though both Yahoshua and YHWH Yah-shah mean The Lord is salvation or the Lord is my salvation. But Jews NEVER call themselves YHWH in their names. A jew can even be Eliyah (Elijah) meaning my God is Jehovah. But a jew can never be YHWH -El or -ElShaddai. Even though it also means jehovah is my God just like Eliyah. A Jew can be Yah-hozedek (Jehozadak) but never YHWH Tisdkenu Jews can have "Yah" as a prefix or suffix in their names but never YHWH. By scriptural antecedents only YHWH Himself can have YHWH-anything as His name. Whoever is called YHWH -anything is YHWH Himself. If the name of the branch (Messiah) is YHWH-Tisdkenu; then He is YHWH -by scriptural antecedents. Only YHWH can be YHWH -anything. A man cannot have YHWH in his name IF HE IS NOT YHWH. Jesus is not Yah-hozedek or Yah-tsidkenu. Jesus is YHWH-tsidkenu. Even though this three names mean roughly the same thing -Yahova is righteous or Yahova is my righteousness or Yahova is our righteousness. But ONLY someone who is YHWH can bear the last one -YHWH Tsidkenu. Secondly, let me also say this; The Father is not the pierced one that they will look upon, the Father didn't die on the cross and no one looke upon Him. To say "he that honours or rejects the Son honours or rejects the Father" also means "he that crucifies or kills or pierces the Son crucifies or kills or pierces the Father" is really stretching. The Father sent the Son, and he that rejects the Son rejects the Father, but the Father is not the pierced one or killed one -IT IS JESUS. Jesus is the YHWH that was pierced and was looked upon John buttressed this at the foot of the cross, when he detailed the prophecies Jesus fulfilled by being killed: John 19v36-37 -For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, "A bone of Him shall not be broken". And again another scripture saith, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED" Jesus is the one John was specifically talking about here. Even if the Father was "symbolically" pierced as well, no one can see Him. It is Jesus being LOOKED UPON. Jesus is the YHWH that was pierced whom they shall look upon -not the Father. Another scripture: Rev 1v7 -Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen Is it the Father that will come in the clouds or the Son. In this verse it is Jesus. Jesus is the pierced one. Even if the Father was symbolically pierced; Jesus is the pierced one that they shall look upon and mourn -not the Father. So the prophecy of Zachariah 12v10 -...and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn Refers only to Jesus. Jesus is the only pierced one that they will look upon and mourn. Not the Father, even if you want to say the Father too was pierced symbolically. Jesus is the "Me (YHWH)" of Zech 12v10 In the case of Zechariah and the pieces of silver, the incident happend twice in history. So God was using the one that happened to give a prophecy of the one that will happen with Christ. It never referred to Zechariah as YHWH. There are more scriptures that honour Jesus with the name YHWH but let me stop here. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 9:05am On Jan 27, 2015 |
And in the case of the Angel, God didn't say YHWH is the name of the angel, He said His name is IN the Angel. Exodus 23v20-21 -Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgression: FOR MY NAME IS IN HIM. Angels were the mediators of the old covenant, and when an angel goes to mediate or do something in the name of YHWH, the name of YHWH is in him. That doesn't mean YHWH is the name of the angel. Remember, in the New Jerusalem, at the new heaven and the new earth, God will also write His name in our forehead. Rev 22v4 -And they shall see His face; and HIS NAME SHALL BE IN THEIR FOREHEADS. Now that doesn't mean YHWH is our name, neither will we be called YHWH; but His name will be in us as His priests, as we represent Him in the universe. But in the case of Jesus, The Father did not put His name IN Jesus. No the Father said YHWH tsidkenu is HIS NAME -the name of the branch (the Messiah); and He will be called that. Jeremiah 23v6 -In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and THIS IS HIS NAME whereby HE SHALL BE CALLED, The Lord our righteousness (YHWH Tsidkenu). 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 7:40pm On Jan 28, 2015 |
ayoku777: 1. Please can you tell us where the scripture established this precedence? 2. Your point is that any who has that YHWH Tsidkenu can answer the name Jehovah. But the scriptures at times used YHWH for Angels, yet they were not called YHWH Tsidkenu. This makes you point weak. 3. Where is Jehovah called YHWH Tsidkenu. That is, YHWH + YHWH Tsidkenu 4. Jerusalem should be called Jehovah dear. If not, your point is inconsistent. It cannot be just a city of God. It has fulfilled your self made precedence - Jerusalem + YHWH Tsidkenu. Abraham called a location Jehovah-Jireh. That makes that location Jehovah? 5. Your stating that Yah is not applicable in this case shows how desperate you are to establish this precedence by all means. Even Jehovah himself was called Yah in the bible, which is the short form of the divine name. When I saw that part of your post, I said to myself - this guy wants to establish this precedence by all means. Jah is the same person as Jehovah, dont rule that out. Some people answered names that mean Jehovah is our righteousness, and you ruled that out saying it does not follow. That point is not acceptable. It is illogical. Well, I anxiously await where the scripture set this precedence. Secondly, let me also say this; Your point if I understand it is that since a verse of the bible where YHWH appeared were applied to Jesus, it means that Jesus can be called YHWH. Is that correct? Can Jesus be called Jehovah? Yes, because he came as God's representative. It is not strange in the scriptures to see someone answer the name of God. But this does not mean that that is there name. That is the point I want to make. The fact that a scripture in the "OT" where God's name appeared was applied to Jesus does not mean Jesus' name is now Jehovah. No. That was never his name. But where that name is can be applied to him since he was God's representative. We know that no one called Jesus Jehovah. This way of using God's name for His representatives is not strange. The Angel that met Gideon at Judges 6:14 was called YHWH. The angel that talked to Moses in the thorn bush was called YHWH. But this does not mean that that is there names. They acted representatively. It is not strange that such could be done of Jesus. The bold face is not true. The point there is that since Jesus was God's representative, piercing Jesus is like piercing Jehovah. Zech 11:12-13 Then I said to them: “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, withhold them.” And they paid my wages, 30 pieces of silver. 13 Then Jehovah said to me: “Throw it into the treasury—the magnificent value with which they valued me.” So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of Jehovah. That verse shows that God views His representatives as himself. The same happened in 1Sam 8:7. At Heb 1:5b a quotation was made from 2Samuel which is an account about Solomon, but no one called Jesus Solomon. Nor does it make Jesus Solomon. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 9:32pm On Jan 28, 2015 |
JMAN05: I've seen this type of debate before; where everyone just talks back and forth and no one agrees with the other. Its moving in circles and no opinion changes. You say Yah in a name is same as YHWH in a name; and I say Yah in a name is not same as YHWH in a name. I said a human can never be given a name with YHWH in it. You imply that Yah-hozedek is same as YHWH tsidkenu because both mean Yahova is my righteousness. And I said a human being can never bear the second one. But you disagree. We will just keep going back and forth. You also said being named YHWH Tsidkenu does not mean you're YHWH, it only means you're a representative of YHWH. When God also said the name of the child will be mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace. Does God saying that not mean Jesus is indeed God, Father and prince of peace? Or it doesn't mean He is any of that, it just means He's a representative of the One who is? Because according to you, God saying that the name of the branch is YHWH tsidkenu doesn't mean He is YHWH tsidkenu, it only means He is a representative of the one who is. Which angel did the Father say YHWH or YHWH-anything is his name? Even angels that God put His name in and who answered that name when they delivered His message. Which of them did God say YHWH is their name? Delivering a message in the name of YHWH is different from YHWH making that your name. You're trying to make those two scenarios mean the same thing; so that you can say Jesus name is YHWH tsidkenu just the same way angels answer YHWH when they deliver messages for God. Angels speak and answer the name of YHWH when they deliver His message or speak for Him. But the Father said YHWH tsidkenu is the name of Jesus. You may disagree back and forth but this two scenarios are not the same. When the Father said the name of Jesus is Mighty God, it means Jesus is Mighty God; He is not just a representative of mighty God. And when the Father said the name of Jesus is YHWH tsidkenu, then it means Jesus is YHWH tsidkenu; not just a representative of YHWH tsidkenu. But like I said, this will just be a back and forth thing. Because to you Yah in a name is same as YHWH in a name. And to you speaking in the name of YHWH is same thing as YHWH being your name. These two are not the same to me. And we will just go back and forth endlessly like two horizontal lines that never meet. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 6:34am On Jan 29, 2015 |
JMAN05: Angels were the mediators of the old covenant just as Jesus is the mediator of the new. So they both represented YHWH and spoke for Him and in His name. But angel Micheal or Gabriel speaking in the name of YHWH is different from YHWH tsidkenu speaking in the name of YHWH. The Angels that appeared to Moses and Gideon, their names were not YHWH and there is no where there where they said that was their names. Scriptures only represented what they did and said as "the LORD said". Gideon even kept calling the angel "my lord (adonai)". But YHWH Tsidkenu is not a representating or mediating name that Jesus answers. It is HIS NAME. YHWH tsidkenu is the name of Jesus. That's what my bible said ...THIS IS HIS NAME (Jer 23v6). Trying to say Jesus answers YHWH tsidkenu the same way angels answered YHWH is really stretching the scriptures on your part. Angels (micheal or gabriel) speaking in the name of YHWH is different from Jesus (YHWH Tsidkenu) speaking in the name of YHWH The name of Jesus is Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.... and YHWH Tsidkenu. And He is all of that -not just a representative of the One who is. The Father is Mosthigh God (El-elyon) and Jesus is Mighty God (El-Gibbowr). The Father is Abba Father (translates into Father Father) which denotes ultimate Father; while Jesus is Everlasting Father. The Father is YHWH and Jesus is YHWH Tsidkenu YHWH tsidkenu is the name of Jesus according to the Father; He doesn't answer it representatively the way angels answered YHWH when they spoke and acted for God. It is HIS NAME. The Father said ..THIS IS HIS NAME But like I said, this is a back and forth argument of two horizontal lines that won't meet. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by RikoduoSennin(m): 6:55am On Jan 30, 2015 |
Emusan: Now, that statement there was not made by Jesus, it was made by YHWH. Emusan: You mean, The Father and The Son are not the SAME but they are both The ONE called YHWH, How? In What Sense? Because the Jews worshipped YHWH as their national God who spoke to them, they knew the Messiah is different from their national God- Acts 2:22-24. Emusan: So then, we should not DOWN PLAY Jesus' having his own Personal God (YHWH) by bringing up his humanity as an excuse. How can a God have his God whom he answers to yet still called an Almighty? Emusan: The scriptures never called Jesus "The Almighty" because that would be Fallacious. It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9. Emusan: Psalms 83:18 " The Most High is called Yahweh" Luke 1:32- " Jesus is the SON of the Most High NOT the Most High himself WHO gave him the throne of David" Malachi 3:6 " YHWH does not CHANGE- he does not change his form from Spirit to flesh" Emusan: Jesus is a superior God to every other Gods EXCEPT the one he calls his GOD/YHWH. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 3:35pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
ayoku777: Proof that bold face scripturally. Thanks for accepting they represented YHWH. But angel Micheal or Gabriel speaking in the name of YHWH is different from YHWH tsidkenu speaking in the name of YHWH. Did anyone call Jesus by those names. Did anyone call him eternal Father, Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace? All those titles meant something. He was going to bring peace to the world, give wonderful counsel, be a means for eternal life for many. These never meant he was going to answer such names. He is also a mighty god. We need to understand the way scripture presents truths dude. Lastly, you claimed that this was a precedence. [size=15]Please show me where the scriptures established this precedence.[/size] |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 4:12pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
ayoku777: 1. It is a fact that Yah is the short form of the divine Name. Any logic to fault that to advance a theory isn't plausible. 2. You obviously responded to a different point of mine here. My statement on the issue of representation is on the application of an "OT" scripture to Jesus. Again, where did people call Jesus YHWH Tsidkenu? I have shown that this a title with meaning. Jesus didn't answer that name literally. 3. I previously sought to understand your point. I stated that, if your point is that Jesus can answer the name YHWH because he was called YHWH Tsidkenu, it means that angels who answered that name YHWH in the bible should also be called YHWH Tsidkenu. That is the understanding that led to the statement. Just like you said are not called YHWH + Tsidkenu. If your point is that Jesus can answer YHWH because he was given a name YHWH Tsidkenu, then your point is weak because Angels were called YHWH, yet no where were they called YHWH Tsidkenu. This seem to be the point your Topic seek to prove - That Jesus can be called Jehovah. 4. The bold - Why then are you battling it when God said YHWH Tsidkenu is the name Jerusalem will be called? Delivering a message in the name of YHWH is different from YHWH making that your name. 1. My point on representation is from the comment you made earlier about application of an "OT" scripture where YHWH appeared on Jesus. I stated that anyone who bear God's message could bear his name. 2. where is Jehovah himself called YHWH Tsidkenu, which make you say He was the only one called such? 3. if you insist on that point, then Jerusalem should also be called YHWH Tsidkenu. It met the formula. 4. if you say YHWH -anything, then Jehovah-Jireh met the criteria. As such, it is Jehovah. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 4:48pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
ayoku777: It is true that Jehovah put His name on the Angels. However, this is not the reason they were called YHWH. Before Jehovah ever said that thing to Moses, an angel had appeared to Moses in the burning bush. And he bore Jehovah's name. Ex. 3:2. Even before this time, Abraham had called an angel YHWH. Gideon himself was not there when God gave moses the instruction. So his calling an angel YHWH si because he understand this one as God's representative. The father also said Jerusalem will be called YHWH Tsidkenu, it means it will surely answer Jehovah. that is your logic. Well see my comments above for more. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 5:18pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
The names of Jesus according to the Father and the scripture are: Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Prince and YHWH Tsidkenu. I believe that the names that the Father called Jesus reflects and points to who Jesus is as a person. I believe His name is Mighty God because He is Mighty God; Everlasting Father because He is Everlasting Father; and YHWH Tsidkenu because He is YHWH Tsidkenu. You on the other hand believe the names don't reflect or point to who Jesus is. That He only bears them representatively or delegatedly on behalf of the Father. This is a fundamental disagreement on the scriptural interpretation of what it means and implies for God to give someone a name. I believe it reflects who the person is or has become; and you believe it doesn't. Let's just agree to disagree and leave the argument here at this point. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 9:40pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
ayoku777: Wouldn't it be better to exclude the bold face, since you wish we agree to disagree? You introduce a formula, and I logically showed why it is wrong. You ve not disproved my points beyond reasonable doubt. Dont you then think the bold should be erased? That God gave the same name to Jerusalem, and you refused to apply the formula there, isn't that a fundamental disagreement? 2. You seem to misunderstand my point. I never said Jesus isn't Wonderful Counselor, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace and Jehovah is our Righteousness. He is. That is what he is. However, my point is that those things are not proper names of Jesus to which he will be called. There is no single place Jesus is called by that name. No one had said, "hey! Prince of Peace come and save me", or "hey! wonderful counselor heal me". This things are titles which states the qualities he possesses. He gives good counsel, his rulership will restore peace to the earth etc. It is not meant to be a proper name for Jesus. If this is the point you disagree with, fine. You are entitled to it. Have nice evening, and thanks for your time. Good talking to you. I think this is our first meet. Maybe next time, we may agree. Shalom dude! |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by ayoku777(m): 4:27am On Jan 31, 2015 |
JMAN05: Don't confuse my desire to stop this argument to mean I no longer have something to say -i just know when nothing I say will change an individual's opinion anymore. I'm someone that hates to argue beyond the point where I know there is any immediate hope of changing someone's mind. And about my bold-face; am bold-faced because I am interpreting the scriptures literally and not forcing meanings to it. According to you, because there is no place in scriptures where Jesus was formally called YHWH Tsidkenu by anyone; then it means the name is a delegated title and not a proper name for Him? Maybe you need to see that scripture again. Jeremiah 23v6 -In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His name whereby HE SHALL BE CALLED, YHWH Tsidkenu. Excuse me for taking God's word literally. But the Father said the name of Jesus is YHWH Tsidkenu and that is what He shall be called. This makes YHWH Tsidkenu a proper name for Jesus -whether someone else in scripture used it to called Him or not. This is the reason for my bold face. My style of interpreting scripture is direct and void of sentiments. When the Father said that is His name, whereby He shall be called; He made YHWH Tsidkenu a proper name for Jesus -whether He was called that by someone else in scripture or not. So according to the Father, and contrary to your submission; I can say, "YHWH Tsidkenu help me"; and Jesus will answer. Because that is His name, whereby He shall be called. You can't say YHWH help me, and angel Micheal will answer. Because the name is representative for them. It is not their name whereby they shall be called. Unlike how YHWH Tsidkenu is the name of Jesus. When God said: Exodus 15v26 -...I am YHWH Rapha (the LORD that healeth thee) You believe it is His name, not a representative title or a delegated name. But when the Father now said the name of Jesus is YHWH Tsidkenu, it becomes a delegated name not His name. The Father didn't say He's putting His name in Jesus, the way He said concerning the Angel. No. He said YHWH Tsidkenu is the name of Jesus. You can't make me take your words over God's words clearly expressed in scripture -that YHWH Tsidkenu is the name of Jesus. Between me and you, I think you're the one really stretching to make sure YHWH Tsidkenu doesn't become a name for Jesus, whereby He shall be called. You so badly want to make the name just a representative title or delegated role play for Jesus and not His name. And to do that you will need to take up your disagreement with the Father who said that is His name whereby He shall be called. And you keep hammering how Jerusalem being named YHWH Tsidkenu should imply Jerusalem is also YHWH. Its no brainer that we all know that God is not a place or a thing or a force -God is a person. So calling a place God or YHWH Tsidkenu does not mean the same things as calling a man or person the same thing. I'm Ayoku; if I call my house, or estate, or my street or my city Ayoku, it declares it as mine indeed; but if I call my son Ayoku it makes him not just my son but also Junior -Ayoku junior. God calling Jerusalem YHWH Tsidkenu does not have the same implication with calling Jesus YHWH Tsidkenu -because God can never be a place, God can only be a person. If the Father makes YHWH Tsidkenu the name of Jesus, it makes Him YHWH but not on the same authority with the Father who made Him that. If YHWH Tsidkenu is only a represenative name Jesus answers as someones sent by YHWH and not really His name, does it mean that we christians too can call ourselves YHWH Tsidkenu too? Since Jesus said, As the Father has sent me, so send I you.? Ofcourse we can't. Because the name is not representative or delegated for someone sent by YHWH. It is a personal name of Jesus; whereby He shall be called. I'm someone who doesn't like to argue doctrine beyond the point where I know there is any immediate hope of changing someone's mind or being edified myself. I'm just replying for the sake of third parties reading. And I believe everyone reading must have received enough scriptures to be berean with this topic on their own by now. The same way Yashua Ha'Massiach is a personal name Jesus can be called; the Father has also made YHWH Tsidkenu a proper name for Jesus to be called. I rest my case. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 1:49pm On Feb 02, 2015 |
ayoku777: I never said nor implied that you have nothing else to say. You are the one making it up. Not me. You want us to agree to disagree, and you made such statement. That's not the way to achieve your aim. You will end up making me reply to defend my point. Secondly, you intentionally misrepresented my point. Stating what I never said. Is that the way? Thirdly, your reply here is also not the way to end a discussion on a win-win level. It even appears am the one calling for an end to this because you are still busy buttressing a point I know to be wrong. I dont see the desire in you to end the discussion. So plsssss lets have it that way. We all have the right to believe what we wish. Shalom! |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Emusan(m): 4:35pm On Feb 04, 2015 |
You purposely boycott some of my post. RikoduoSennin: See another lie, Who spoke to John? You mean, The Father and The Son are not the SAME but they are both The ONE called YHWH, How? In What Sense? Absolutely YES! I repeat "It was the advent of Jesus on Earth that people know Yahweh exists more than one. Because the Jews worshipped YHWH as their national God who spoke to them, they knew the Messiah is different from their national God- Acts 2:22-24. SMH...did they know also that the Messiah is the CREATOR of all things or YHWH is only the creator? So then, we should not DOWN PLAY Jesus' having his own Personal God (YHWH) by bringing up his humanity as an excuse. How can a God have his God whom he answers to yet still called an Almighty? I can see how you misunderstood my point here, I said the Father becomes Jesus God at His HUMANITY not when Jesus had not taken on flesh. So the divinity of Jesus isn't about His life on EARTH after the DIVINE EVARLASTING LIFE had taken on flesh. The scriptures never called Jesus "The Almighty" because that would be Fallacious. It does. It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9. Lolzzz...please you believe Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED of God, so can you tell us now who are the FELLOWS of Jesus Christ? because you believe Jesus has fellows which is the reason why you FIRST QUOTED Heb 1:9 not me Psalms 83:18 " The Most High is called Yahweh" See how you keep exposing your ignorance was the throne of David given to Jesus before His life on Earth or after He became Human? Malachi 3:6 " YHWH does not CHANGE- he does not change his form from Spirit to flesh" See another ignorance in display, Yahweh appeared to Abraham in form of Man does it mean Yahweh change? Beside what Malachi 3:6 was addressing is Yahweh will never change IN HIS PROMISE not even talking about NATURE. Jesus is [size=14pt]a superior God[/size] to every other Gods EXCEPT the one he calls his GOD/YHWH. I got this from your previous post "he is Almighty God? Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God. [size=14pt]He was sent by a superior God.[/size] Lolzzz so how many SUPERIOR GOD do you have? If Jesus is a SUPERIOR God why the NWT translated John 1:1 as a god? |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by CAPTIVATOR: 6:27pm On Feb 04, 2015 |
@ Rikoduosenin ....... Maintain your respect , the guy you are chattin with has already hit himself with a fork . , he doesnt believe in trinity ,he is preaching MODALISM , Jehovah of Hebrew Scriptures is the Jesus of Greek scriptures ! Forgeting that Jesus while on earth is a " REPRESENTATIVE FROM God" Joh 7:29 ! " I have not come of my own initiative ..... The one WHO SENT ME is Real" Joh 7:28 And the son Christ, will forever be subjected under the authority of JEHOVAH, HIS GOD AND FATHER , ...... 1 Cor 15: 24-28 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Boomark(m): 7:46pm On Feb 04, 2015 |
Bidam: I have told you once upon a time that you must start afresh. The afresh is a must.  1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. John 17:21-22 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." Read the bolded carefully. Oneness means unity. That is why it is true even for husband and wife. It does not mean one Yahweh, God or co-equality. Trinity doctrine has failed with its lies and will continue to fall your hand. Jesus and the Father are one. We all are one just as Jesus and the Father are one. We are also one with the Lord....No lies, no twisting, no importation of co-equality, plain truth backed by the scripture. If you don't understand it, start afresh. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Nobody: 7:02am On Feb 06, 2015 |
Boomark:. MAN MADE ideology. I will keep posting the truth since it offends your religious spirits. We have One God in 3 persons. God is uncreated( The Father). Jesus ( God the son) Created the World. The Holy Spirit( God) is active in all creation. This is the mystery of the trinity. They are coequal and co eternal and they all agree. For through Him ( Jesus not the church) we ( church) have access to the Father by ONE SPIRIT( Holy Spirit) eph 2:18. Note: Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The church is NOT God. That is the co equality and co eternal we meant. ALL this is proven in scriptures. |
| Re: Jesus Is More Than God, He Is Jehovah by Boomark(m): 11:56am On Feb 06, 2015 |
Bidam: So it has gotten to the level of calling scriptural quote man made ideology? We know that there are 3 Gods are One God blah blah. So Go and handle the true meaning of "I and My Father are one" as seen in 1Cor 6:17. That is a threat to your trinity false teaching of co-equality. It made a mess of it. Stop dodging it. God the Father is the Father of spirits, Heb 12:9. Out of Him are all spirits. He is that One spirit, Eph 4:4. 1 Like |
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