analice107:

hmmm.

okay,like you i am also exhaused with all the back and forth.

you seem to never answer when i ask you what church you attend now. or if you didnt at all.

why whats wrong??

joey150:
so you just skipped the maccabees?

I didn't skip it, I ignored it.

Did Jesus, or any of the old testament prophets, or any of the new testament apostles mention any verse in the maccabees or even quote from it in defence of any doctrine?

So on what basis am I to accept the book as a pillar of truth or an inspired book by the Spirit of God, if it was not referenced by any prophet or apostle in any book or epistle? NONE!

joey150:
plus so what you are saying is at the judgement seat of christ our works will be tested with fire? so literally christ seat in heaven? or did you have any other meaning in mind?

It is not what I am saying, it is what the bible said.

1Cor 3v13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And to the other question. Bodily, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, but like the Father, He too is omnipresent, so He can be at His judgment seat and at the right hand of the Father at the same time.

But wherever His judgment seat is located, scripture made no mention of purgatory in that regard. And to do so would be to go above what is written -the very foundation of many heresis in the church today.

joey150:
my point about lazarus and the likes was trying to show you that the dead could still be prayed for.

Commanding the dead to come back to life is not praying for the dead. And even if you do pray for the dead, how is that prove they are therefore in purgatory and not sheol or heaven?

You're really grasping at straws here, using every scripture that talks about the afterlife as proof of purgatory.

joey150:
plus, even the apostles acknowledged that all christ teachings and works could never have all been recorded in the bible.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

even Jesus made it clear to the disciples that there were so many other things he would like to say to them which he did not.
John: 16. 12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

another one Philippians: 4. 9. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

and yet.
2 John: 1. 12. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

this suffices to say that the bible cannot contain every detail.so dont get me started on the it must be in the scripture talk. so bible alone christians..thrill me.

the catholic church contains the apostolic lineage starting from saint peter who was the first custodian of the written and UNWRITTEN truths. it is common to seek truth and faith from men who received it from Jesus himself.
that is still not to say because purgatory is not in the defined in the bible verbatim that it does not exist.

finally.. I'll end with 2 Thessalonians: 2. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.. take note of TRADITIONS, WORD OR EPISTLE.

PLEASE LET NOBODY MENTION IT MUST BE IN THE SCRIPTURE. PURE IGNORANCE.

Brother, the apostolic age ended in 100AD after the demise of the last apostle -John the beloved. And after that Jesus Himself said;

Rev 22v18 -For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The last book of the last apostle is what canonized the written word of God and ended what can be considered scripture.

Any other book that was written after 100AD or that was written before 100AD but was not referenced by Jesus, the prophets or the apostles cannot be considered as scriptures.

So all those your catholic books that teach things the apostles didn't teach, things you can't clearly back up with biblical verses are heresis. They are "prophecies" of private interpretation. And you would do well to discard them.

The doctrines of the apostles, received directly from Jesus and through the Spirit, are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. And christians are to stick to ONLY that.

Shalom!

Joey150, if the purgatory is not for everybody, how is it then that in 1 Cor. 3, Paul says that every man's work shall be tested?

Read 2 Tim. 3:16. Tell me what you think.

Joey150, no such thing as purgatory. It is a demon inspired teaching that is meant to make you lukewarm in your Christian walk.

Christ is coming for a Bride without spot or wrinkle. Purgatory teaches that it is okay for the Bride to have little spots or wrinkles and that Christ would accept her since they are too negligible to be considered.

If you die in sin, whether the sin be small or great, you die without Christ and except God brings you back to life to repent you're forever beyond redemption.

Joey150, what do you have to say about the early Berean Christians that always searched the Scripture to see if what they were taught were there? (Acts 17:11)

skeendyke:
Joey150, no such thing as purgatory. It is a demon inspired teaching that is meant to make you lukewarm in your Christian walk.

Christ is coming for a Bride without spot or wrinkle. Purgatory teaches that it is okay for the Bride to have little spots or wrinkles and that Christ would accept her since they are too negligible to be considered.

If you die in sin, whether the sin be small or great, you die without Christ and except God brings you back to life to repent you're forever beyond redemption.

nope you miss the point. because christ Wants spotless as you mentioned, purgatory makes sure that those slightly stained are made spotless for christ. ohh lord! not again. sin is not sin.. please go and read again. read my post about it then disprove it with facts.

analice107:
I think the doctrine of Purgatory was derived from the passage below. Lets look at it critically.

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.
And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores.
He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.
And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.

And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father’s house— For I have five brothers—so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.

But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).

He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if asomeone should rise from the dead.

The above passage posits that this place is a place of waiting. no other thing is done here other than wait for resurrection.
Purgatory is a place of continuous work to make up for what was missed while alive.
It almost like reincarnation.
Its a place of Purging, cleansing, repentance from the sins which were not repented of while alive. what does the cleansing and purging is what i need to know, because the blood of Jesus is not effectual in the realm of the spirits.

If there is room for repentance after death, the rich man in Jesus' Parable would have opted for it, instead of pleading with Father Abraham to pls send someone back to the realm of men to warn his brethren not to come where he was.

If one can make amends beyond the grave, the rich man would switched into action immediately he discovered himself in torments.

But if we should go by this doctrine, we will let Christ go completely. eg
The Finished work of Christ. The efficacy of the blood of atonement.
It'll make Redemption void. As a matter of fact, it will make the mission of Christ on earth useless.
The teaching of Purgatory posits that, the blood of Jesus is not enough to cleans our sins, making void the act of Grace.

There is a very subtile but tacit error enclosed in this teaching, and a careful perusal of it, will lead us straight to the ideologies which by- passes Jesus as the only way to Yahweh or the ideologies which posits that there's no Hellfire at all.

It believes in the act of Penance. Entering into paradise if "Your Good works surpasses your transgressions.
The Bible says we are SAVED BY GRACE AND NOT BY WORKS", Justification is by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You cant believe in Christ and His finished work and at the same time believe in Purgatory.

Cc: Postman.n.
Schol.ar
Lastmessen.ger
Ayoku777

Analice107, pls I'll respond tomorrow. My day been one extra busy

ayoku777:


I didn't skip it, I ignored it.

Did Jesus, or any of the old testament prophets, or any of the new testament apostles mention any verse in the maccabees or even quote from it in defence of any doctrine?

So on what basis am I to accept the book as a pillar of truth or an inspired book by the Spirit of God, if it was not referenced by any prophet or apostle in any book or epistle? NONE!



It is not what I am saying, it is what the bible said.

1Cor 3v13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And to the other question. Bodily, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, but like the Father, He too is omnipresent, so He can be at His judgment seat and at the right hand of the Father at the same time.

But wherever His judgment seat is located, scripture made no mention of purgatory in that regard. And to do so would be to go above what is written -the very foundation of many heresis in the church today.



Commanding the dead to come back to life is not praying for the dead. And even if you do pray for the dead, how is that prove they are therefore in purgatory and not sheol or heaven?

You're really grasping at straws here, using every scripture that talks about the afterlife as proof of purgatory.



Brother, the apostolic age ended in 100AD after the demise of the last apostle -John the beloved. And after that Jesus Himself said;

Rev 22v18 -For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The last book of the last apostle is what canonized the written word of God and ended what can be considered scripture.

Any other book that was written after 100AD or that was written before 100AD but was not referenced by Jesus, the prophets or the apostles cannot be considered as scriptures.

So all those your catholic books that teach things the apostles didn't teach, things you can't clearly back up with biblical verses are heresis. They are "prophecies" of private interpretation. And you would do well to discard them.

The doctrines of the apostles, received directly from Jesus and through the Spirit, are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. And christians are to stick to ONLY that.

Shalom!

saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls in 2Thessalonians 2:15 saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls and in philipians 4:9 saint paul also did the same.but accordinh to you they cannot be considered as SCRIPTURES but they are in your HOLY bible. and yet you claim its catholic invented. and yet you claim that every thing must be stated in the same bible for you to believe. do you even listen to yourself?

lets not even get started on the part where Jesus told the disciples in John16:12-13 that subsequently things will be revealed to them by the spirit of truth. meaning not all the teachings where given to them at once.

in revelation 22:18-19,this shows how wrong people go about interpreting the bible from the comfort of their homes.
i want you to clearly Note 2 things.
1. it referred to the words of prophecy and NOT to the entire scriptures.
2. it CLEARLY referred to a SINGULAR BOOK. and not the entire books of the holy bible. it never referrred to books in plural.
it is also important to note that when saint John wrote down revelations 22:18-19, we did not have the holy bible as we have it today. so how could he have even referred to the holy bible, talk less of the apostolic traditions and teachings of the Holy catholic church. i had to put that in bold to correct that popular misconception most protestants sing about in regards to that verse. problem solved.

going to 2maccabees i dont wanna touch much on that but read this,
Similarly, St. Paul alludes clearly to Wisdom chapters 12 and 13 in Romans 1:19-25. Hebrews 11:35 refers unmistakably to 2 Maccabees 7. And more than once, Christ Himself drew on the text of Sirach 27:6, which reads: "The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had; so too does a man's speech disclose the bent of his mind." Notice too that the Lord and His Apostles observed the Jewish feast of Hanukkah (cf. John 10:22-36). But the divine establishment of this key feast day is recorded only in the deuterocanonical books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. lets not dive into that,story for another day really.

so am still amazed as to how suddenly philipians and Thessalonians became so irrelevant and yet its in the same HOLY BIBLE which you always demand every proof must come from.

joey150:
ahan. here is a new twist.

but you just accused me of interpreting the bible how it suited me .
lets see your own version of this one.
educate me please.

Lack of understanding of Scriptures breaths error.
Lets look at that scripture and try to understand what Christ means there.

Matthew 16:13-18 Now when Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
And they answered, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am? Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah.
For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter [Greek, Petros—a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra—a huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].

Christ picked his apostles, taught them, before them he healed the sick, open the eyes of he blind, raised the dead, cast out demons, cleansed the lepers, opposed the Pharisees etc. Definitely, people will opinions of him, and he needed to know what people thought of Him, so he asked;
What do men say that I, the Son of Man is?
His Apostles answered and said, "Some people say you are Elijah, some say you a prophet, some say you are John The Baptist etc.

Okay, Jesus said, that is what outsiders who observe me from afar say i am, Now, you who are my close associates, what do you say that i the son of man, is?
You go out with me, eat with me, sleep where i sleep, i teach others in parables, i teach you in plane language, with you i have no secrets.
What do you my Apostles say that i am? Everyone kept quiet.
Do you know why it was necessary for Christ to ask this question? it is because, so many people seemingly follow Christ without really knowing who Christ is. So, he wanted to know if his apostles knew him.
Apart from multiplying food, healing the sick, and raising the dead, WHO DO YOU SAY I AM?
This is the crux of the matter. Even to you reading this right now, Who is Christ?
No one could answer except Peter.
Peter said, " YOU ARE JESUS THE CHRIST, SON OF THE LIVING GOD.
Jesus said to him, FLESH and BLOOD has not REVEALED this to you, but my father who is in heaven. I say unto you thou art Peter and upon this rock, I shall built my church. Jesus this not say upon you the rock i shall build my Church
He said Upon THIS ROCK.
The questions now is, WHICH ROCK?
Did he mean the rock which the name peter means?
The answer is No.
The rock is the REVELATION Peter received concerning Him. Anyone who has that revelation, about him, the church is built in his heart. It is that revelation that make Christians stand firm in they faith even when they are threatened with death
that's why "When two or three are gathered in his name, a church is formed.
If you have a revelation of who Christ is, you won't run after prophets and prophetesses.
You wont run after Miracle workers
You wont be told, Mary appeared in Kaduna, and you travel over there to worship the ground where they said she stood.
you wont hear Mary's image is crying blood you run there to worship.
if you have a revelation of who Christ is, you wont be shaken because someone threatened you.
If you have a revelation of who Christ is, when witches and wizards threaten you, you say to them, bring it on.
The ROCK Christ meant was the rock of REVELATION, not Peter
Shalom.

postmann:

Analice107, pls I'll respond tomorrow. My day been one extra busy

Okay sir, good night.

joey150:

okay,like you i am also exhaused with all the back and forth.

you seem to never answer when i ask you what church you attend now. or if you didnt at all.

why whats wrong??

Am not ashamed of exposing where i worship, for my being there is by divinely directed.
God!!!, I hated the Bishop.
Not as a Catholic oo. As a pentecostal, i hated him. Don't ever mention his name to me. But recently, i was dissatisfied with where i was and needed a place to revive my faith, and i took it to Christ in prayer where i should go, for two years i asked i. prayer, when He answered, your guess is as good as mine.
Living Faith Church. Living Faith Church ke? No Lord, i don't like that man, but i obeyed Him anyways. If i tell you how my Faith has skyrocketed.
If you are standing outside looking at them, you can never understand them.

analice107:

Lack of understanding of Scriptures breaths error.
Lets look at that scripture and try to understand what Christ means there.

Matthew 16:13-18 Now when Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
And they answered, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am? Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah.
For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter [Greek, Petros—a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra—a huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].

Christ picked his apostles, taught them, before them he healed the sick, open the eyes of he blind, raised the dead, cast out demons, cleansed the lepers, opposed the Pharisees etc. Definitely, people will opinions of him, and he needed to know what people thought of Him, so he asked;
What do men say that I, the Son of Man is?
His Apostles answered and said, "Some people say you are Elijah, some say you a prophet, some say you are John The Baptist etc.

Okay, Jesus said, that is what outsiders who observe me from afar say i am, Now, you who are my close associates, what do you say that i the son of man, is?
You go out with me, eat with me, sleep where i sleep, i teach others in parables, i teach you in plane language, with you i have no secrets.
What do you my Apostles say that i am? Everyone kept quiet.
Do you know why it was necessary for Christ to ask this question? it is because, so many people seemingly follow Christ without really knowing who Christ is. So, he wanted to know if his apostles knew him.
Apart from multiplying food, healing the sick, and raising the dead, WHO DO YOU SAY I AM?
This is the crux of the matter. Even to you reading this right now, Who is Christ?
No one could answer except Peter.
Peter said, " YOU ARE JESUS THE CHRIST, SON OF THE LIVING GOD.
Jesus said to him, FLESH and BLOOD has not REVEALED this to you, but my father who is in heaven. I say unto you thou art Peter and upon this rock, I shall built my church. Jesus this not say upon you the rock i shall build my Church
He said Upon THIS ROCK.
The questions now is, WHICH ROCK?
Did he mean the rock which the name peter means?
The answer is No.
The rock is the REVELATION Peter received concerning Him. Anyone who has that revelation, about him, the church is built in his heart. It is that revelation that make Christians stand firm in they faith even when they are threatened with death
that's why "When two or three are gathered in his name, a church is formed.
If you have a revelation of who Christ is, you won't run after prophets and prophetesses.
You wont run after Miracle workers
You wont be told, Mary appeared in Kaduna, and you travel over there to worship the ground where they said she stood.
you wont hear Mary's image is crying blood you run there to worship.
if you have a revelation of who Christ is, you wont be shaken because someone threatened you.
If you have a revelation of who Christ is, when witches and wizards threaten you, you say to them, bring it on.
The ROCK Christ meant was the rock of REVELATION, not Peter
Shalom.

ana...i think this link does perfect justice to your question. i hate that i have to ask you to visit a link.
but its too good for me to just pass. as its more of your answer been perfectly replied to. and i believe you would have a better understanding. and my fingers are getting lazy tonight.

i beg you to please read .
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock
thanks.

DoctorAlien:
Joey150, if the purgatory is not for everybody, how is it then that in 1 Cor. 3, Paul says that every man's work shall be tested?

Read 2 Tim. 3:16. Tell me what you think.

everyman's work shall be tried. but notice where it says,if anyman's work abide,which he hath built thereupon,he shall RECEIVE A REWARD. then it goes on to say...IF ANY MANS WORK BURN.....
so in the end its not everybody that shall be saved by fire as i stll said.. lest,the man's work burn..

i agree with 2 tim 3:16 totally. i think its clear and precise enough. would be a good example for the guy against Thessalonians and phillipians. as its in the scripture.
ayoku777 read 2tim 3:16 and still tell me why Thessalonians and phillipians have become inferior in your own eyes.

joey150:
ana...i think this link does perfect justice to your question. i hate that i have to ask you to visit a link.
but its too good for me to just pass. as its more of your answer been perfectly replied to. and i believe you would have a better understanding. and my fingers are getting lazy tonight.

i beg you to please read .
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock
thanks.

Take me to the Bible, not to the Catholic anything.

analice107:

Take me to the Bible, not to the Catholic anything.

hahah i knew you would object. but since you went through the path of language and interpretation its only fair i tow that line.. besides. there are references to the bible there too..

are you scared to read? if you are sure you are right then obviously you would have no reason to doubt. well except there is a real genuine one to.. it wont take you more than 5mins. read mainly the conversation part..u can skip the beginning

joey150:
hahah i knew you would object. but since you went through the path of language and interpretation its only fair i tow that line.. besides. there are references to the bible there too..

are you scared to read? if you are sure you are right then obviously you would have no reason to doubt. well except there is a real genuine one to.. it wont take you more than 5mins. read mainly the conversation part..u can skip the beginning

Scared to read? I read everything printed in English language. I just don't feel like wasting my time right now on any Catholic stuff which definitely wont edify me.

joey150:
saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls in 2Thessalonians 2:15 saint paul was clearly speaking to the faithfuls and in philipians 4:9 saint paul also did the same.but accordinh to you they cannot be considered as SCRIPTURES but they are in your HOLY bible. and yet you claim its catholic invented. and yet you claim that every thing must be stated in the same bible for you to believe. do you even listen to yourself?

I have read 2Tim 3v16;

2Tim 3v16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And it is true. But trying to include your catholic books in what is considered scripture is wrong. When apostle Paul said "All Scripture" here, the catholic books are not among them.

And these other verses you've been hammering on;

2Thess 2v15 -Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How is the doctrine of purgatory part of the traditions that was handed down by the word or epistle of the apostles? Because according to you, purgatory is one of the traditions handed down by the writers of the scriptures. Yet you can't show me where, except from your catholic books that are not scriptures.

Then this too;

Phillipians 4v9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Again, how and where is the doctrine of purgatory part of what was received and heard from Paul the apostle? How and where? Paul didn't preach it, Jesus didn't, none of the apostles did. Only catholics do, from books that are not scripture.

joey150:
in revelation 22:18-19,this shows how wrong people go about interpreting the bible from the comfort of their homes.
i want you to clearly Note 2 things.
1. it referred to the words of prophecy and NOT to the entire scriptures.
2. it CLEARLY referred to a SINGULAR BOOK. and not the entire books of the holy bible. it never referrred to books in plural.
it is also important to note that when saint John wrote down revelations 22:18-19, we did not have the holy bible as we have it today. so how could he have even referred to the holy bible, talk less of the apostolic traditions and teachings of the Holy catholic church. i had to put that in bold to correct that popular misconception most protestants sing about in regards to that verse. problem solved.

It is not just Revelation 22v18-19 that shows that only the doctrines preached by the apostles can be considered scripture. It is also proved in the description of the City of the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21v14 -And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Can you see that? The names of the twelve apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls (boundaries) of the New Jerusalem.

It implies that the teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. No new doctrine or books of doctrines can be called scripture outside and after what was taught by word or by epistle of the apostles of the lamb -the last of which was John the beloved in 100AD.

That was why the early church was founded on the doctrines of the apostles.

Acts 2v42 - And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Just as Jesus also commanded;

Matthew 28v20 - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (the apostles): and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So new doctrines and "church traditions" that came after the demise of the last apostle in 100AD, or that came before 100AD but were not taught in word or epistle by the apostles should not be considered scripture by any true believer.

And purgatory is one of such heresis.

The names of the apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls of the new Jersualem. The teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. Teaching doctrines and traditions they didn't teach is tantamount to setting new boundaries and walls for the church instead of building on what they taught.

When Jesus told His diciples that He has many more things to teach them but that after the Holy Spirit comes He will guide them into all truth. Those many things were later revealed to the apostles and they wrote them down in their epistles. It doesn't include new books and new doctrines that came into the church after th apostles had died and gone.

Purgatory is not a doctrine or tradition that was handed down by the apostles of the lamb, either by word or epistle. It is a false doctrine. Stick to what can be defended with books considered scripture, not post-apostolic age catholic books.

Shalom!

ayoku777:


I have read 2Tim 3v16;

2Tim 3v16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And it is true. But trying to include your catholic books in what is considered scripture is wrong. When apostle Paul said "All Scripture" here, the catholic books are not among them.

And these other verses you've been hammering on;

2Thess 2v15 -Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How is the doctrine of purgatory part of the traditions that was handed down by the word or epistle of the apostles? Because according to you, purgatory is one of the traditions handed down by the writers of the scriptures. Yet you can't show me where, except from your catholic books that are not scriptures.

Then this too;

Phillipians 4v9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Again, how and where is the doctrine of purgatory part of what was received and heard from Paul the apostle? How and where? Paul didn't preach it, Jesus didn't, none of the apostles did. Only catholics do, from books that are not scripture.



It is not just Revelation 22v18-19 that shows that only the doctrines preached by the apostles can be considered scripture. It is also proved in the description of the City of the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21v14 -And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Can you see that? The names of the twelve apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls (boundaries) of the New Jerusalem.

It implies that the teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. No new doctrine or books of doctrines can be called scripture outside and after what was taught by word or by epistle of the apostles of the lamb -the last of which was John the beloved in 100AD.

That was why the early church was founded on the doctrines of the apostles.

Acts 2v42 - And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Just as Jesus also commanded;

Matthew 28v20 - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (the apostles): and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So new doctrines and "church traditions" that came after the demise of the last apostle in 100AD, or that came before 100AD but were not taught in word or epistle by the apostles should not be considered scripture by any true believer.

And purgatory is one of such heresis.
rev 21v14 does not in anyway justify your claim. you accuse catholics of followinh traditions or explicitly adding things not precisely directwd in the bible. and am telling you since traditions where passed on by the apostels by either their acts or epistle,this is a big indication that all could not have been put down in the bible. after disputing your revelation prophecy you come up with this. very weak i must say.


The names of the apostles of the lamb are the foundations of the walls of the new Jersualem. The teachings of the apostles are the foundations of the tenets of christianity. Teaching doctrines and traditions they didn't teach is tantamount to setting new boundaries and walls for the church instead of building on what they taught.

When Jesus told His diciples that He has many more things to teach them but that after the Holy Spirit comes He will guide them into all truth. Those many things were later revealed to the apostles and they wrote them down in their epistles. It doesn't include new books and new doctrines that came into the church after th apostles had died and gone.

Purgatory is not a doctrine or tradition that was handed down by the apostles of the lamb, either by word or epistle. It is a false doctrine. Stick to what can be defended with books considered scripture, not post-apostolic age catholic books.

Shalom!

seriously you really didnt make any sense.
all am trying to show you here really is that apart from the scripture, traditions where literally passed on by the apostles to the faithfuls then.

its a blatant fact that you must admit,wether purgatory was or not. it is a FACT! admit it first. stop mincing words here. same way traditions/believes are passed down in african cultures ,from one generation to the next. there are clearly no written evidences but each tribe has passed down wisdom and culture this way. it has long been a way of passing teachings not just in religion.

it is ludicrous to refer to thesselonians and phillipians as "catholic books". i will overlook your ignorance and encourage you to go and read up or study more. so if thesselonians and phillipians are in the scripture are they not profitable for doctrine or reproof as instructed in 2tim 3v16?

and your theory about 100AD, wherever you got that from i seriously dont even want to find out. funny thing is that the books of the bible where first compiled by the catholic church. for you all 1999 churches or some individuals born in the 1960's to spring up and start quoting traditions is very amusing. seeing that you have all deviated from the first source, to individually cling to your own "realities" and teachings. very sad! admit it or not the real history about the early church is only complete in the catholic faith. where writings have been documented long ago and stored in archives.

revelations 21v14 sadly has nothing to do with what you are trying to explain. not one bit. even if it did, if the apostles also taught them some traditions by word of mouth isnt it still a valid teaching then, seeing that they themselves adviced the faithfuls to cling onto the traditions passed to them either by word or epistle. Acts2:3-6 the holy spirit gave the apostles the gift of SPEAKING in different languages and not WRITING in different languages. this shows empasis is not strictly on the written words of God.

matthew 28v20, alot of things Jesus told the apostles where also not extensively included in the bible. my point is words written down have never only been the source of wisdom.
so if you say to me that every tradition was included in the bible that will be very false.

lets even think outside the box here,you are aware that the church existed many years before the new testament came. many of the apostles died even before some new testament books were written and many niether read nor wrote the new testament. for example, saint John wrote the book of revelations about 98 A.D after the other apostles. let us also remember that saints Peter and Paul were martyred about 67 A.D and saint James was also martyred in 42 A.D. they could not have read the acts the apostles or the Gospels of Matthew,Luke which where written between 70 A.D and 80 A.D. even Jesus did not write except that only one time where he wrote on the sand. the apostolic evangelical emphasis was not exclusively on the written truth. it involves all truths handed down from the apostles through the church,in written and unwritten form.


the church still stands,because Jesus promised Peter it will.. and its every traditions and teachings are inspired by the holy spirit. believe or not. the history of every apostle, their life and death are well documented by the church.

its a good thing you now know what rev22:18-19 really means.go and educate your other clans, as this is a popular rhyme for the protestants.

cheers!

analice107:
I think the doctrine of Purgatory was derived from the passage below. Lets look at it critically.

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.
And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores.
He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.
And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.

And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father’s house— For I have five brothers—so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.

But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).

He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if asomeone should rise from the dead.

The above passage posits that this place is a place of waiting. no other thing is done here other than wait for resurrection.
Purgatory is a place of continuous work to make up for what was missed while alive.
It almost like reincarnation.
Its a place of Purging, cleansing, repentance from the sins which were not repented of while alive. what does the cleansing and purging is what i need to know, because the blood of Jesus is not effectual in the realm of the spirits.

If there is room for repentance after death, the rich man in Jesus' Parable would have opted for it, instead of pleading with Father Abraham to pls send someone back to the realm of men to warn his brethren not to come where he was.

If one can make amends beyond the grave, the rich man would switched into action immediately he discovered himself in torments.

But if we should go by this doctrine, we will let Christ go completely. eg
The Finished work of Christ. The efficacy of the blood of atonement.
It'll make Redemption void. As a matter of fact, it will make the mission of Christ on earth useless.
The teaching of Purgatory posits that, the blood of Jesus is not enough to cleans our sins, making void the act of Grace.

There is a very subtile but tacit error enclosed in this teaching, and a careful perusal of it, will lead us straight to the ideologies which by- passes Jesus as the only way to Yahweh or the ideologies which posits that there's no Hellfire at all.

It believes in the act of Penance. Entering into paradise if "Your Good works surpasses your transgressions.
The Bible says we are SAVED BY GRACE AND NOT BY WORKS", Justification is by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You cant believe in Christ and His finished work and at the same time believe in Purgatory.

Cc: Post.mann.
Sch.olar
Lastmess.enger
Ayok.u777

Are you catholic?

postmann:

Are you catholic?

Does it matter if she's Catholic?

postmann:

Are you catholic?

No sir, use to be.

analice107:

No sir, use to be.

Does your present church support purgatory?

postmann:

Does your present church support purgatory?

No.

analice107:

No.

So how did you come about your purgatory persuation? The scriptures you quoted doesn't suggest that the rich man was in Purgatory.

Rather he was in a fixed place; a great chasm where only the damned go. Hence he never wanted his brothers there.
Lifting up his eyes to see Abraham or Lazarus being comforted isn't suggestive of Purgatory.

There may be purgatory but the Bible doesn't support it with scriptures. So you shouldn't put your eternity on gamble on what you don't have a clear scriptural reference.

joey150:
revelations 21v14 sadly has nothing to do with what you are trying to explain. not one bit. even if it did, if the apostles also taught them some traditions by word of mouth isnt it still a valid teaching then, seeing that they themselves adviced the faithfuls to cling onto the traditions passed to them either by word or epistle. Acts2:3-6 the holy spirit gave the apostles the gift of SPEAKING in different languages and not WRITING in different languages. this shows empasis is not strictly on the written words of God.

matthew 28v20, alot of things Jesus told the apostles where also not extensively included in the bible. my point is words written down have never only been the source of wisdom.
so if you say to me that every tradition was included in the bible that will be very false.

These statements in bold right there are the very quicksand and slippery slope of heresis in the church and body of Christ;

"That just because something is not written in the bible doesn't mean it is not a sound doctrine or a tradition of the early church"

Brother, once you believe that line, you have opened the door to the pandora's box of every false doctrine in your life. Because it is on the premise of that line that many heresis are justified -claiming that a doctrine is not in the bible because it was passed down by word of mouth and not by epistle. Seriously?!

The written word of God is called a "MORE SURE word of prophecy" (2Peter 1v19) for a reason. It is because it is the foundation on which every opinion, tradition, prophecy and doctrine must be tested to be proved as true or false.

That was why when Jesus was being tempted, He kept saying, "It is written, It is written".

If Jesus Christ the Word of God used the written word as the foundation of truth and premise for rejecting what the devil told Him to do; how much more should we reject what is not written too?

No wonder scripture said;

Isaiah 8v20 - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Can you see that? Anyone who says anything that is not according to the revealed word of God in the scriptures, has no light in him.

So don't tell me a doctrine is not in the bible because it was passed down by word of mouth. It is not in the bible because it is not the word of God but the opinion of man.

Or wait! If it tell you that polygamy is sound doctrine, that it is not in the epistles because it was passed down by word of mouth, you will believe me? Or if I tell you that mercy-killing or honour-killing is a sound doctrine, and it was passed down by word of mouth, that's why its not in the epistles, you will believe me? Or you will believe if the pope says it?

Listen, the written word, the scriptures is the premise of truth, and the foundation on which every doctrine, prophecy, and tradition must be judged to be proved as true or false.

Jesus used "it is written" to judge and reject what the devil told Him to do. And we too should use what is written to judge what we are told, and reject it if it is not according to what is written.

Hmmm! Passed down by word of mouth! Its a tradition that wasn't written down! Seriously?!

Shalom!

postmann:


So how did you come about your purgatory persuation? The scriptures you quoted doesn't suggest that the rich man was in Purgatory.

Rather he was in a fixed place; a great chasm where only the damned go. Hence he never wanted his brothers there.
Lifting up his eyes to see Abraham or Lazarus being comforted isn't suggestive of Purgatory.

There may be purgatory but the Bible doesn't support it with scriptures. So you shouldn't put your eternity on gamble on what you don't have a clear scriptural reference.

The reason i mentioned you is to have you help out with your well of knowledge in THIS THREAD, the thread about Purgatory. the Ops mentioned me so, i had to contribute, then mentioned you.
Its not because i believe in Purgatory.

analice107:

The reason i mentioned you is to have you help out with your well of knowledge in THIS THREAD, the thread about Purgatory. the Ops mentioned me so, i had to contribute, then mentioned you.
Its not because i believe in Purgatory.

Okay. Forgive my hasty conclusion. Thought you believed in Purgatory.

Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine.

ayoku777:


These statements in bold right there are the very quicksand.

You are still mixing things up. purgatory aside just for one minute.

i am trying to show you clear instances why it cannot just be about the bible alone,not to undermine the bible or make up fairy tales that are not in it.

i have showed you about 4 verses in the bible,which explicitly shows that there where teachings passed on by word of mouth(well in your own thinking, they are false books and so should not be treated with importance,2john1:12,3john1:13,phillipians4:9, 2thesselonians 2:15. . false books in the bible? really? same bible which 2tim 3:16 clearly states is clear of errors.
you are refusing now to accept clear facts,that sadly the bible dosent contain all. as was even cleary mentioned in john 21:25.

anyway,here is some food for thought.

why is the Bible calles a bible? where in genesis to revelation does bible appear anywhere? so why call it a bible? on whose teaching? whose reference? you claim to accept teachings from the holy bible without seeing the word "bible" in it. yet you reject purgatory simply because you cant find the word "purgatory" in it.

the holy bible is a product of oral tradition
the entire bible is a product of oral tradition,take for instance genesis written by moses almost 100years after the events occured. Adam must have passed down information to Noah, Noah orally to Abraham,Abraham to Issac then Isaac orally to Jacob then Joseph to Moses. the point here is none of them ever wrote. information was passed orally..Moses only wrote. in matthew 28:19-20 Jesus said go and baptize and. and teach. never did he say Go and do what is only written and of course there was no bible then. in 1450AD bible printing started. the catholic church under the guidance of the holy spirit selected the 4 gospels out of many and later inserted verses for easy referencing.

the church teachings and interpretation remains superior
no wonder saint Paul rebuked all those guarded by private. interpretation in 2peter 1:20-21" understanding this first that no prophecy or scripture is made by private interpretation"
saint paul strongly confirmed the superiority of the church in teachings of faith and belief in
Ephesians: 3. 10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Also in 1 Timothy: 3. 15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. remember he did not say the church is the pillar and foundation of truth as long as the bible determines her teaching.

Also in Matthew: 18. 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Jesus here confirms the superiority of the church.

Recall also that in Acts: 1. 3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Jesus also thought his disciples deep theology of the kingdom of God.the holy bible did not tell us what he said, But the apostolic traditions can. When he was also teaching no one asked him to prove his doctrines with the scriptures because he was the knowledge and authority himself.

Look,i could go on and on and on. You have not met your regular catholic friend you ridicule. Here i will actually proove to you more and more why you all are mixing things up, based on your own interpretation and deviation from the church. I leave you here. Go and dwell on those verses.
Accept or not, truth remains truth.. Fact remains fact. I had to make this lengthy you where just giving me more reasons to rebuke your ignorance.
Cheers!

postmann:


So how did you come about your purgatory persuation? The scriptures you quoted doesn't suggest that the rich man was in Purgatory.

Rather he was in a fixed place; a great chasm where only the damned go. Hence he never wanted his brothers there.
Lifting up his eyes to see Abraham or Lazarus being comforted isn't suggestive of Purgatory.

There may be purgatory but the Bible doesn't support it with scriptures. So you shouldn't put your eternity on gamble on what you don't have a clear scriptural reference.

there may be? nobody is gambling with anything here, am not telling people to hope on purgatory. if you Read from the first page.. you get the bigger picture i am painting here.

you all are quick to forget the catholic church was the one and only church,the first christian church. whose traditions where passed unto by the apostles.
for you to say its just a mere catholic doctrine is a very big understatement. even at that,there are still clues all over the bible to point out that a place indeed exists. even if we as catholics do not know all that goes on there.
cheers man!

joey150:
there may be? nobody is gambling with anything here, am not telling people to hope on purgatory. if you Read from the first page.. you get the bigger picture i am painting here.

you all are quick to forget the catholic church was the one and only church,the first christian church. whose traditions where passed unto by the apostles.
for you to say its just a mere catholic doctrine is a very big understatement. even at that,there are still clues all over the bible to point out that a place indeed exists. even if we as catholics do not know all that goes on there.
cheers man!

You might want to spare me those fallacious claims. The Catholic Church was just the first organised church associated with the Roman government. If you read your bible well, you'd see clearly that Apostle Paul set up many small churches across Asia and Greece and appointed leaders therein. These Churches existed long before the catholic church. And Rome was still a pagan nation then.

postmann:


Okay. Forgive my hasty conclusion. Thought you believed in Purgatory.

Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine.

Yea, I know. the Ops wanted or is still trying to stick it into the Bible, like Islam is trying very hard to stick muhammed inside the Bible, they fail at every attempt

analice107:

Yea, I know. the Ops wanted or is still trying to stick it into the Bible, like Islam is trying very hard to stick muhammed inside the Bible, they fail at every attempt

You're right. We have people who are more faithful to their denominations than they are to CHRIST.