MosesAlex:

I am simply saying that the ark of the convenant had the image of cherubims on it but the ark was an instrument of God's power.

The Israelites were not worshiping the Ark when they prostrated towards it.

The temple of old had images in them.

My response is towards the lady's comment

answer this and we good
Is it right to bow to statues of saints and Mary. Justify your conscience with your answer

frbona:
answer this and we good
Is it right to bow to statues of saints and Mary. Justify your conscience with your answer

Were the Isrealites wrong when they bowed/prostrated to towards the Ark ?
Is bowing always wrong? I showed an exampl earlier of David bowing towards Jonathan.


In summary there is a big difference bowing towards the Ark of the Convenant and Bowing before the Golden Calf.



Joshua 5:14 Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"


To answer you question I do no wrong when I greet a citizen of heaven with a bow, while facing their statue. I am not worshiping the statue but greeting the person it represents.

MosesAlex:

I am simply saying that the ark of the convenant had the image of cherubims on it but the ark was an instrument of God's power.

The Israelites were not worshiping the Ark when they prostrated towards it.

The temple of old had images in them.

My response is towards the lady's comment

brother please stop responding to questions about images, these people will continue shifting from topic to topic instead of admitting that they got a point wrong.


it is totally dishonest to continue this topic shifting, please don't encourage them, the topic is Mary as mother of God, if that discussion isn't fully pursued, don't entertain another.

MosesAlex:


My dear, you left what was addressed. Which is why Jesus called Mary "Woman" and jumped to another topic. Well I would touch the new topic you brought up images. (I hope you would stick to it).

On images
To understand the our use of images try and consider the Ark of the Covenant vs the Golden Calf, the Ark of the Covenant Vs Dagon (1 Samuel 5:2 )

Joshua 7:6
Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

Question: Was Joshua worshiping the Ark?

1King 7:36

He engraved cherubim, lions and palm trees on the surfaces of the supports and on the panels, in every available space, with wreaths all around.
Question: Where these not in God's Temple as put in place by Solomon?

On Bowing 1 Samuel 20:41
After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground.

Question: Was David worshiping Jonathan?

brother please stop responding to questions about images,
these people will continue shifting from topic to topic instead
of admitting that they got a point wrong.
it is totally dishonest to continue this topic shifting, please
don't encourage them, the topic is Mary as mother of God, if
that discussion isn't fully pursued, don't entertain another.

Ubenedictus:



brother please stop responding to questions about images,
these people will continue shifting from topic to topic instead
of admitting that they got a point wrong.
it is totally dishonest to continue this topic shifting, please
don't encourage them, the topic is Mary as mother of God, if
that discussion isn't fully pursued, don't entertain another.

That's the nature of a typical protestant.
Dancing from topic to topic like a beautiful butterfly.

solite3:

you can't see it cause the god of this world has blinded you.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

so this is what you say whenever you refuse to make sense and can't substantiate your claim.


again nothing in that passage says Mary didn't give birth to God.

bloodofthelamb:


Be true to yourself. What Catholics are observing now are they the teachings of the apostles? Because they did no devotion to Mary.

Their devotion was to God the Father and Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost. If you find any of their teaching on Mary, please show me. I will like to read.

yes, what Catholics are observing now are the teaching of the apostles and the same practice is found in every ancient Christian church that can trace its linage to the apostles, all the apostolic churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental) all have Marian devotion.


did you manage to read up Luke 1 which tells us that every generation must acclaim the blessedness of Mary, which is exactly what Catholics do.

You are a big fool. clueless Goat

Ubenedictus:



yes, what Catholics are observing now are the teaching of the apostles and the same practice is found in every ancient Christian church that can trace its linage to the apostles, all the apostolic churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental) all have Marian devotion.


did you manage to read up Luke 1 which tells us that every generation must acclaim the blessedness of Mary, which is exactly what Catholics do.

Apostles of Jesus never did devotion to Mary, neither did they encourage the saints in their letters to offer devotion to Mary.

Mary was blessed through the grace of God, no body denies that. Catholics do more than calling her bless. They venerate her. They pray to her to pray for you etc.

Ubenedictus, Mary said they shall call her blessed and not they shall make devotion/supplication unto me. Mary is was blessed just like believers are blessed.

The same Holy Spirit that overshadowed her is also the same Spirit that is upon us conforming us into the image of Christ Jesus.

Ubenedictus:



so this is what you say whenever you refuse to make sense and can't substantiate your claim.


again nothing in that passage says Mary didn't give birth to God.

Mary birthed the man Jesus Christ not God, I just pray your eyes be opened

bloodofthelamb:
Ubenedictus, Mary said they shall call her blessed and not they shall make devotion/supplication unto me. Mary is was blessed just like believers are blessed.

The same Holy Spirit that overshadowed her is also the same Spirit that is upon us conforming us into the image of Christ Jesus.

good response,



just not the topic, I'll be happy to discuss this when you make a thread about it, until then the topic is Mary mother of God.

bloodofthelamb:


Apostles of Jesus never did devotion to Mary, neither did they encourage the saints in their letters to offer devotion to Mary.

Mary was blessed through the grace of God, no body denies that. Catholics do more than calling her bless. They venerate her. They pray to her to pray for you etc.

you wouldn't know what the apostles didn't do, because there is actually nowhere all their deeds are recorded and you seem ignorant of the actual testimony and beliefs and practices of the early church they established.


but again, that is not the topic of this thread.

solite3:

Mary birthed the man Jesus Christ not God, I just prat your eyes be opened

so there were two Jesuses, the man Jesus and the God Jesus, so Mary gave birth to the man Jesus ONLY.


please when did the God Jesus join the man Jesus?


it is a pity because any sound Christian knows that Jesus was God and man united in one person, so when Mary gave birth, it was God+man that was born.


but since you separate the man Jesus from the God, please tell me when the God Jesus joined the Man Jesus.



you are right in the vicinity of Nestorianism... a really stupid heresy.

Protestant you are loosing this one again, don't give up you can do it

You started strongly and just 5 post as rebuffs ur foundations are shaking and u all running scattered.

Anyway the truth will always prevail so try and seek for it always.

How does that stop you from worshipping Ur God?

Firstly who is a mother to a child?
Biologically a mother is someone you obeyed the law of biology of conception and gave birth to a child.
Other definitions say a mother is a part of a parent that offers direction and parenthood to a child.

Mary's conception ddnt obey the law of biology since Joseph ddnt consummate (have sex) the marriage so can Mary be the mother of Jesus (spirit, soul and body) bcus sex is the only activity known to man that can make another spirit soul and body.
Mary did not even parent the Jesus bcus even at the age of 12, Jesus went out for a long time and was not back and the Bible said when he came back she was worried and he replied and said to her that he went about doing his fathers business.

Even with Paul's level of intellectualism that he wrote so many letters to the churches when he noticed that he was been idolized he comepletly frowned against it. There is only 1 way, 1 truth and no matter the role anyone played to the point of Jesus the relevance starts and end with Jesus. Mary is in no way the mother of God bcus the variables that can become the common denominator to even call her the mother of Jesus, Biologically and Pshycological were not expressed.
So even the statement "Mary mother of Jesus" is a symposium discussion and is questionable then how will Mary mother of God be potent.
The book of Romans also told us that anything you give yourself to as lord, same will lord over you. So if you keep going to a pole every day and saying pOle you are my lord, I worship you for days and months. Trust me in a matter of months you will hear the pOle speak to you(this answers the image of Mary that is being bowed to).

Now for those arguing about the ark and Convenant and also citing bible references here is my response.
Luke 16:16 says the law and the prophets were until John. Now this means that's the law, methods, processes, ideas, ideals, even people, prophets were until john so after John they are not essentially expressed in the same way and manner we use to know or may have read them. So whatever or however Moses, Joshua, etc operated or related in times past before John are right and good for their times but in present times, we are only conforming day after day, brighter and brighter till the perfect day to be like Christ. You can only read the Old Testament to understand some principles about how God works or can work. The book of Hebrews says God who at sunset times in the past spoke to use through the prophets now speaks to us through his son whom he had given the power to become heir of ALL things. Not something's.

God bless you.

donpy:
Firstly who is a mother to a child?
Biologically a mother is someone you obeyed the law of biology of conception and gave birth to a child.
Other definitions say a mother is a part of a parent that offers direction and parenthood to a child.

Mary's conception ddnt obey the law of biology since Joseph ddnt consummate (have sex) the marriage so can Mary be the mother of Jesus (spirit, soul and body) bcus sex is the only activity known to man that can make another spirit soul and body.
Mary did not even parent the Jesus bcus even at the age of 12, Jesus went out for a long time and was not back and the Bible said when he came back she was worried and he replied and said to her that he went about doing his fathers business.

Even with Paul's level of intellectualism that he wrote so many letters to the churches when he noticed that he was been idolized he comepletly frowned against it. There is only 1 way, 1 truth and no matter the role anyone played to the point of Jesus the relevance starts and end with Jesus. Mary is in no way the mother of God bcus the variables that can become the common denominator to even call her the mother of Jesus, Biologically and Pshycological were not expressed.
So even the statement "Mary mother of Jesus" is a symposium discussion and is questionable then how will Mary mother of God be potent.
The book of Romans also told us that anything you give yourself to as lord, same will lord over you. So if you keep going to a pole every day and saying pOle you are my lord, I worship you for days and months. Trust me in a matter of months you will hear the pOle speak to you(this answers the image of Mary that is being bowed to).

Now for those arguing about the ark and Convenant and also citing bible references here is my response.
Luke 16:16 says the law and the prophets were until John. Now this means that's the law, methods, processes, ideas, ideals, even people, prophets were until john so after John they are not essentially expressed in the same way and manner we use to know or may have read them. So whatever or however Moses, Joshua, etc operated or related in times past before John are right and good for their times but in present times, we are only conforming day after day, brighter and brighter till the perfect day to be like Christ. You can only read the Old Testament to understand some principles about how God works or can work. The book of Hebrews says God who at sunset times in the past spoke to use through the prophets now speaks to us through his son whom he had given the power to become heir of ALL things. Not something's.

God bless you.

"And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43.

This, my friend, nullifies your unsolicited for epistle.

UbiPetrus:

"And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43.

This, my friend, nullifies your unsolicited for epistle.

I'll suggest you read the post once again.
My point was simply that since the birth of Jesus ddnt pass the test of biology which is the only activity that can bring about another spirit, soul and body then Mary being the mother of Jesus clarifies that she is only the mother of his body and not his spirit, and soul. Remember soul is the mind, the will and emotion. Jesus was clearly an eternal soul, eternal spirit living in a mortal body.

So when it is written in the bible that Mary the mother of Jesus, just be well informed that it's just the body of Jesus.

donpy:


I'll suggest you read the post once again.
My point was simply that since the birth of Jesus ddnt pass the test of biology which is the only activity that can bring about another spirit, soul and body then Mary being the mother of Jesus clarifies that she is only the mother of his body and not his spirit, and soul. Remember soul is the mind, the will and emotion. Jesus was clearly an eternal soul, eternal spirit living in a mortal body.

So when it is written in the bible that Mary the mother of Jesus, just be well informed that it's just the body of Jesus.

This goes on to show how very little you understand the Gospels, that is, if there is any understanding at all.

Again,
And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43.

The one who was born of the virgin was the only begotten son of the father.
He was true God and true man.
There never was a time he stopped being God. Not even at the moment of the incarnation.

He was called "IMMANUEL" - "GOD WITH US" even before the incarnation.

Ubenedictus:
so there were two Jesuses, the man Jesus and the God Jesus, so Mary gave birth to the man Jesus ONLY.


please when did the God Jesus join the man Jesus?


it is a pity because any sound Christian knows that Jesus was God and man united in one person, so when Mary gave birth, it was God+man that was born.


but since you separate the man Jesus from the God, please tell me when the God Jesus joined the Man Jesus.



you are right in the vicinity of Nestorianism... a really stupid heresy.

what I meant is Jesus only relationship with Mary is through the flesh nothing more.
there are differences between Jesus as God and as a man.
these two natures did not mix.
Jesus as a man has a beginning and that is through Mary but Jesus as God had no beginning hence Mary is never the mother of God but of the man Jesus.

solite3:
what I meant is Jesus only relationship with Mary is through the flesh nothing more.
there are differences between Jesus as God and as a man.
these two natures did not mix.
Jesus as a man has a beginning and that is through Mary but Jesus as God had no beginning hence Mary is never the mother of God but of the man Jesus.

1) "Jesus as God had no beginning hence Mary is never the mother of God but of the man Jesus" according to you

But John 1:1, John 1:14, Matt 1:23 and many other verses say otherwise:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel which means God with us"

Analysing Matt 1:23:

The Virgin= Mary
The Son/Her Son= Jesus/Immanuel
Immanuel=God with us
Us=Humanity

So we can extrapolate:

"Mary will conceive and give birth to God of humanity.

2) "Jesus only relationship with Mary is through the flesh nothing more.
there are differences between Jesus as God and as a man.
these two natures did not mix." according to you...

Please, show us a proof of the two Jesuses that are immiscible. Thanks

The veneration of Mary, a woman, is one of the few good things about Roman Catholicism. Please stop trying to take this away from them.

Seun:
The veneration of Mary, who is a woman, is one of the few good things about Roman Catholicism. Please stop trying to take this way from them.

Hmmm

God is Trinity, so Mary is the earthly mother of God the Son. Remember that an angel of God appeared to Mary before she conceived, so it is just illogical to assume Mary is the mother of the same God that sent her an angel.

The other components of the Trinity are God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, both of which existed before the creation of man.

That being said, the Bible is so diverse to the extent that any individual or group of individuals can always use the Bible to justify any ideology.

Some believe in the Ministry of Mary
Some in the Ministry of Angels
Some in the Ministry of Jesus Christ
Some in the Ministry of the Holy Spirit
Others believe in some or all the Ministries but for some reasons choose to favour one or some above others; some decided to relegate one or two based on their own understanding of the Bible and, according to them, inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Whatever it is you believe, the truth would soon be unfolded. Fact however remains that we all cannot be right, God is not a man that He should lie or contradict Himself.

Ubenedictus:
I didn't show you any books written by men, please don't accuse me of what I haven't done.


Jesus is God John 1:1
some one gave birth to him Luke 2

that person gave birth to God.



the fact that you disagree doesn't make is untrue.

Then show me where it is written that Mary is mother of God.

There are many wrong teachings in catholic church. Believe me many....

doyinbaby:
I told a friend about some wrong doctrines around Mary.....he got angry......... please how can one get his catholic friends to accept the truth of God's word.....
Why is convincing catholics so difficult ....... this my friend Na charismatic o him sabi bible

Its quite diffcult, but you can try your best and leave the rest for God.
there are lots of articles and sites on Catholic false doctrines you can send to him so he can read and research for himself.

Ubenedictus:



1. scriptures

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in
righteousness, so that the servant of God may be
thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2. apostolic traditions.


2 thess 2:15


New International Version
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold
fast to the teachings we passed on to you,
whether by word of mouth or by letter.

You contracdict yourself you accept Pauls words and yet reject his teachings.
Paul never preached to people that Mary was mother of God nethier did he pray or worship Mary.

Seun:
The veneration of Mary, a woman, is one of the few good things about Roman Catholicism. Please stop trying to take this away from them.

Lol... I see he is bringing politics and feminism into Bible debate

Acidosis:
God is Trinity, so Mary is the earthly mother of God the Son. Remember that an angel of God appeared to Mary before she conceived, so it is just illogical to assume Mary is the mother of the same God that sent her an angel.

The other components of the Trinity are God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, both of which existed before the creation of man.

That being said, the Bible is so diverse to the extent that any individual or group of individuals can always use the Bible to justify any ideology.

Some believe in the Ministry of Mary
Some in the Ministry of Angels
Some in the Ministry of Jesus Christ
Some in the Ministry of the Holy Spirit
Others believe in some or all the Ministries but for some reasons choose to favour one or some above others; some decided to relegate one or two based on their own understanding of the Bible and, according to them, inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Whatever it is you believe, the truth would soon be unfolded. Fact however remains that we all cannot be right, God is not a man that He should lie or contradict Himself.

True The bible is not for individual interpretation.

UbiPetrus:
This goes on to show how very little you understand the Gospels, that is, if there is any understanding at all.

Again,
And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43.

The one who was born of the virgin was the only begotten son of the father.
He was true God and true man.
There never was a time he stopped being God. Not even at the moment of the incarnation.

He was called "IMMANUEL" - "GOD WITH US" even before the incarnation.

Same word play.