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Nairaland Forum / Entertainment / Sports / European Football (EPL, UEFA, La Liga) / R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld (1174246 Views)
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Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 4:09pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: Nope, I simply provided an European team which defenders take PK but feel free to move the goalposts And Alonso is now a defender?Seems you'd be okay with Casimiro taking PKs then So? why can't ours be one of the outliers or is it no longer legal? If each of those defenders show they're better than those strikers then they should take it! especially high stake penalties!! You're desperately trying hard to make a sensible argument sound absurd Benzema was given penalty because his confidence in front if goal was low and we had a healthy lead. if it were against atletico at 1-1 Ronaldo would never have given him the PK!! That you drew penalty doesn't mean you should take it, If that's how you want it then go watch NBA where the fouled player has to take the free throws, this is football. the best taker takes it be it goalkeeper, defender, midfielder or striker especially high stakes one I wonder why you're bringing irrelevant examples into this without context Ramos being responsible for "1" goal (feel free to multiply it to make a point) at that point doesn't diminish his PK abilities. If Ronaldo were still here and missing sitters in that game then we have PK he would still be the one to take it! You tell me if you are and I've seen Ronaldo score worse penalties and even miss many, your point is? 1 Like |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 4:10pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:Strikers missing sitters is not a blunder, right? |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 4:16pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
usbcable: I'm the one who made the statement and provided a link to back it up. I doubt he'd ever be able to shake off that conception about him. Although even if he brings in Thiago and Aspas, I wouldn't cry foul; because the team needs them more than I care about their nationality. The problem now is that it appears Perez is giving him the Benitez treatment. He's publicly said he wants a replacement for Kovacic, body no shake Flo. I don't even think he needs to publicly state he needs a striker as well, even a prehistoric primate knows we need one. What Flo is waiting for I don't know. And he can't complain. I just dey pity the guy. He left the Spanish NT for this, he deserves better. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by Eyedea(m): 4:19pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
Ramos has always been our second choice PK taker and most times he scores with it. I was surprised some of you guys were shocked he was taking it. This shouldn't be an issue. |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 4:30pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: One European team. It seems you're unwell! I guess Everton is now representative of the European standard? Can you actually look up the meaning of standard and outlier in a dictionary? Ramos made a mistake in the first and third goals. It's not my fault if you're watching the HDMI wire. Ramos is a defender, it is not universally part of a defender's repertoire to take penalties. And in a match where the strikers are just as good at taking penalties and actually need the penalties to up their goal tally; there is absolutely no reason under the sun for a defender to take the penalty. Especially when said defender made two costly errors in the same match. You say Benzema was given the PK because his confidence in front of goal was low. Then in the same breath you don't care about his confidence level because you want a defender to be the primary PK taker. Be f*cking consistent! You're making it seem like Ramos is the best PK taker on the team. He isn't. And even if he were, PK's are 50:50 chances, and it's universally accepted that goal scorers/talismen take them. And it is doubly important we adhere to that tradition when the goal scorer and talisman on the team have immense pressure on them to step up and add more goals. Approximately 10-15% of CR7's goals last season were penalties. I have a huge problem with depleting Bale or Benzema's goal tally by more than 15% (as they aren't 50 goals per season scorers) because we want to satisfy a defender... If he wants to score, he should be at the end of corner kicks. Leave the penalties for those with the task of scoring goals. -Lord 1 Like |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 4:36pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
Eyedea: These guys are just looking for something to complain about |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 4:40pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: Except that strikers traditionally are the primary penalty takers and defenders aren't. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 4:44pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
Eyedea: Circumstances have changed. Make Bale the primary PK taker and make Ramos second and no one would care. This is not the captaincy where it always has to follow a seniority hierarchy. Or are we going to buy Neymar today and insist Ramos will still be the choice PK taker? If no, then why is it now a taboo for Bale or Benzema to be the choice PK taker? Bale has always been the heir apparent to CR7's crown, then he gets the crown and now we're nitpicking the benefits of the crown. If Ramos can play second-fiddle to CR7 in the PK hierarchy, he can play second-fiddle to Bale in the PK hierarchy. Suggesting otherwise is deeply unfair to Bale or Benzema. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by usbcable(m): 4:48pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: Let us drop the Ramos issue before we are termed Ramos haters oooo. Their was a reason why strikers or the super star are always made the primary PK taker in top teams. Abeg, What more do you know about Marcelo's back up other than his name? |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 4:52pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
usbcable: Do we have an actual backup for Marcelo? I was of the opinion Nacho will fill in if he gets injured. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 4:52pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:I gave example of Sao Paulo in which a goalkeeper was their taker, you brushed it away because its not in Europe. I gave you Everton example you are now moving the goalposts
Standard for selecting PK takers is how good they are at PKs. that most usually fall to strikers doesn't make it the rule, it simply means strikers are usually the best PK takers in their various teams but if a defender is the best at it then he should take it in high stakes game The third goal had not happened when he took the PK, learn to read, you might like it No! You're bringing irrelevant points here. Its in any player's repertoire to be able to take penalties. of he's not a good as the attackers and midfielders then he shouldn't. All 11 players on the field should be able to take penalty kicks and whoever is regarded as the vest among them should take it when on the field You're trying too hard to pin me but you're failing I said he was given the PK because 1. His confidence was low 2. We had a healthy lead in that game If Ronaldo were in that supercup match and Benz is low on confidence then Ronaldo would've taken it Please stop strawmanning me, its highly dishonest The coach most likely thinks he's the best. forgive me for trusting a coach that's watched them train PKs day in day out over a Nigerian who's probably never been to Valdebebas or Cuidad let alone witness a real Madrid live training The tradition is that the best PK taker takes it! I agree its 50-50 by default but the odds increase with how good the player is at it so its better to go with the best taker to give you better odds. Just like a match is 50-50 but having a better team than the opponent makes the odds increase in one side and so? if Benz and Bale are interested in scoring then let them score open play goals or show the coach they're better than Ramos at taking PKs Here you go again, making conclusion that Ramos is being favoured. Like I said, there's no winning for this coach even some Nigerian madridistas apparently know better than him |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 4:55pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: traditionally, the best takers are chosen for the duty. the position they play secondary. that its usually strikers doesn't make it a rule. it simply shows strikers are usually the best PK takers |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by Eyedea(m): 4:58pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:I get your point but it still shouldn't be this big issue we're arguing about. |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 5:00pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:If we Buy Neymar today and Ramos still shows the coach I'm training that he's better than him at it then Ramos should take it! There's a reason Ramos was second fiddle to Ronaldo at PKs not Bale or Benzema Maybe when you understand why, you'd then understand why he's number one now that Ronaldo has left Honestly this is not even worth arguing over and you guys are just looking for any reason to complain even reasons with clear explanations like this PK thing |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 5:02pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
Eyedea: PK takers last 3 seasons were in order of hierarchy 1. Ronaldo 2. Ramos 3. Bale 4. Benzema Ronaldo leaves and 2 becomes 1 yet these people are complaining. Isn't it obvious they're complaining for complaining sake? |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 5:08pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: Why are you so daft? Is this really so hard to understand? Everton is an OUTLIER. Look up the meaning of outlier. Everton doing it does not mean it is the standard. The standard is that strikers and star players take the penalties. You have yet to provide any proof that Benzema and Bale are so statistically bad at taking penalties that Ramos has to take it. If you have any such evidence provide it. Bale takes the PKs at Wales. He took the PKs at Tottenham. Whenever Benzema is called to take the PK, he often dispatches them brilliantly. So if by your account all 11 players should be able to, and the top 2 goal scorers are able to take PK's brilliantly; then why on God's green earth do you insist Ramos should take it. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 5:11pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: That makes for a good laugh. Ramos will relegate Neymar as the primary PK taker. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 5:21pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:Feel free to call me anything you want Outlier means it's different from what is perceived as the norm. Everton played last season with Rooney as their designated PK taker BECAUSE he was better than Baines (who was their PK taker before they signed Rooney) at it. Now that's Rooney's left Baines takes over the duties again What makes them outlier is that their defender is their best PK taker. if Ramos happens to be the best taker in Madrid then Madrid joins the outlier. being an outlier isn't illegal, is it? The best taker is what matters, not the position the taker plays!!! The standard is for the best taker to take it. their position is secondary and irrelevant. that its usually strikers simply means strikers are usually the best PK takers in teams NOT that strikers have to be the one taking it even if they're not as good as a defender in the same team You're yet to show why Ramos isn't better than it than those two. the onus is not on me to show why those are worse. only to show why Ramos is better than them and the past 3 season of Ramos being the backup PK taker to Ronaldo lends credibility to me while yours is based on speculation and the assumption that you know better than Lope and the erroneous conjecture that strikers should be taking the duties. Bale took PKs in Wales BECAUSE he was the best PK taker in wales Bale took PKs in Tottenham BECAUSE he was the best PK taker in Tottenham Benzema took PKs when he's the best PK taker on the pitch OR he's given in a game that we have an unassailable lead to boost his confidence Ramos takes PK for La Roja BECAUSE he's the best PK taker in La Roja, they had strikers and midfielders in La Roja but he still takes them Ramos was deputy PK taker last season BECAUSE he was the second best PK taker in the team Ramos is the main PK taker this season BECAUSE he's the best PK taker in the team Its very simple |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 5:23pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: Feel free to laugh bro, its good for your health |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by Nobody: 5:48pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
The need to argue for the sake of it has made some people drag this penalty issue for too long. Hopeffulandlord... I completely agree with you on this issue of pk takers in a team. You have been logically consistent in your argument. |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 5:58pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: Can you bring any evidence to back up that statement that Ramos is the best PK taker in the team? That is the question I asked that you're not willing to answer. Provide the evidence or sh*t your trap about this best PK taker nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bale is so poor at PK's that he should statistically not be the main PK taker now that CR7 isn't the primary taker anymore. If you have any such evidence that proves otherwise, show it. As recently as 2013, Angel Di Maria was our second PK taker, after Kaka left. Same Di Maria isn't in the top 3 in PSG. But you expect us to accept that Ramos who couldn't beat out Di Maria would beat out Neymar who walked into PSG and took the spot as a superstar. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 6:15pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: The evidence is his being deputy PK taker when Ronaldo was here ahead of Bale and Benz Feel free to pretend this is not evidence though He was not deputy when Ronaldo was here, Ramos was deputy and what made Ramos deputy to Ronaldo ahead of Benz and Bale made him main taker ahead of those 2 now that Ronaldo has left This is very simple and I fail to see the need for this argument other than trying to complain unnecessarily I fail to see the relevance of bringing this. Messi couldn't beat out Xavi for PKs and Free kicks but trained at those, became better at it than Xavi and took over those duties ahead of Xavi. it might shock you to know Players improve different aspects of their game as their career progresses just like Ronaldo's positioning and ability to lose his marker late in his Madrid stint was leaps and bounds better than his positioning and ability to lose his marker during his Man united and earlier in his Madrid stint 1 Like |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 7:06pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: Oga that is not an evidence. Give a stat. Stop typing trash! Neymar is the primary PK taker in PSG and it's not because he's better at PKs than Cavani. Messi is the primary PK taker in Argentina and he is not statistically the best PK taker on the team. Aguero is. You've just been typing loads of BS since. So for 3 years+ Ramos has been better at PKs than Bale and Benzema. And Bale never improved. Coming up with nonsensical rules you just pulled out of your a$$ to defend a position you can't even back with facts. Give a stat, you're giving me excuses. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by Eyedea(m): 7:41pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord:I'm not fully sold on our coach but I think that's the last thing I would worry about even if he has a Spanish agenda |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 7:45pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX:Poo Poo fallacy Don't just rubbish it, address it! If he's taking it then he's the better PK taker, its that simple and I'd trust the coaches that select those players having watched them practice than a Nigerian sitting in the comfort of his own home even if this is true, who's talking statistics? You're just dragging this discussion anywhere you will feel comfortable and failing at it If Benz and Bale improved but Ramos is still better than them at it then Ramos would still be taking it. Was Ramos staying still even if they improved? Honestly I feel you're just dishonestly trying hard not to understand Stats border on irrelevancy in this discussion Ramos was deputy ahead of Bale and Benz, that showed he was better than them at PKs or the coach who watched them train everyday thinks so. now he's number one that the main taker last season has left. if that's not evidence that he's better than them at it then nothing can possibly be evidence enough for you and that shows your dogmatism and inability to see credible evidence when it doesn't fit your narrative of Ramos being catered to or Spanish players being favoured Oga, I'm tired of this argument. You're right, Bale and Benz should be taking PKs ahead of Ramos just because they're strikers Let's discuss something else |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 7:50pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
Eyedea:exactly! I have my reservations with this coach too but If one must complain at least let the complain be sensible. this complain about PKs can only come from a hater to be frank cuz the explanation is very obvious and easy to understand for anyone that's watched football for years Honestly these madridistas can't wait for this coach to fail, they're not even giving him any chance at all |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 8:15pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: What are you tired of. The time it'd take you to type a diatribe, you'd have found a statistical proof that Ramos is better at penalties than Bale and Benzema. You have no such evidence and you are simply assuming that Ramos deputized for Ronaldo simply because he was better at it than Bale and Benzema. Then I provide proof that Aguero is statistically better at penalties than Messi, yet Messi is the primary PK taker at Argentina. https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/6/16/17470622/lionel-messi-penalty-stats-argentina-vs-iceland Also Neymar was made the primary PK taker at PSG without the reason being that he was the best PK taker on the team. You just pulled that rule out of your a$$, and you can't back it up with facts and stats. Then you make another uncorroborated claim that Ramos has been the better PK taker than Bale and Benzema without the others improving for the last 3 years. Where's your proof for that, nothing? You have this undeniable urge to drop unsubstantiated statements that you have no stats or evidence for, and you expect others to swallow it without questioning it. Why is it that Messi and Neymar can be made the primary PK takers in their teams respectively when they're not statistically the best PK takers, but Bale can't here, even though he is our talisman, when there is no statistical proof that Ramos is better at penalties than Bale? Answer! Then you go on to say Neymar wouldn't be given the primary PK role if he comes when that is exactly what he got at PSG despite Cavani being just as good. You think Flo will wait for 3+ years and pay 200m+ for Neymar and would not give him the primary PK role because of one defender. And you think you're normal! You've been arguing BS since the start. Always talking nonsense when it comes to giving players their due. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by monerozi5590: 8:18pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord die matter. We will have a successful campaign again. I am optimistic. |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 8:27pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
LordAdamX: This is my last reply on this because I've seen you're just pretending now to stick to your guns At no point in any of this discussion did I bring stat into this, stat is something YOU brought up and are now trying to put it in my mouth IF Ramos was regarded to be deputy for Rolando at PKs ahead of Bale and Benz then that's evidence he's better at it than them or the coaches who watched them train PKs week in week out came to that conclusion. You're free to pretend that doesn't mean anything in order of bring some googled stat without context but that's your prerogative IF Neymar is taking PKs ahead of Cavani then he's better at it than him! The coach who watched them train week in week out made that conclusion and I would trust his decision more than someone who has never watched them practice PKs but uses Google to check stats and pull conclusion from there. "Then you make another uncorroborated claim that Ramos has been the better PK taker than Bale and Benzema without the others improving for the last 3 years. Where's your proof for that, nothing?" Honestly you just put words in people's mouth when you have no point and are shooting blanks for the records, I never made the above claim he's saying I made YOU asked why Di Maria was deputy here but fell below the pecking order at PSG while Ramos that he was ahead of when he was still here is now taking PKs. I replied that it could be that Ramos improved his PK taking abilities to the point of being regarded as better and that people improve different aspects of their game so a player can train and dislodge others who were ahead of them in certain duties. I even mentioned Messi improving FKs and PKs then dislodging Xavi from the number one spots Your dishonest self is now strawmanning me by saying I'm making a claim? Have a good one |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by hopefulLandlord: 8:28pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
monerozi5590: I'm done now, that's my last reply on this issue and I'm not the type that brags but anyone who reads both of our argument and leave biases aside wouldn't agree with him I'm very optimistic too or at least a lot more optimistic than "The sky is falling" preachers 1 Like |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 8:33pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: Which Madridistas? That's how you go about making funny accusations, then when you're called out, it'd be as though it's a gang-up. Because I've said it multiple times here that whatever results we get this season I'd give Lope a pass, because he's being set up by the board. Every criticism for anyone at the club must be from a hater. But when we applaud certain things done right, there's radio silence. -Lord |
Re: R36L Madrid - Most Successful & Greatest Champ15ns of Spain, Europe & W8rld by LordAdamX: 8:44pm On Aug 18, 2018 |
hopefulLandlord: You are just making a very crude, unsubstantiated assumption. Your rule does not hold up to scrutiny. Ramos deputizing for Ronaldo is not proof or evidence that he is better than Bale and Benzema at taking penalties. That's simply your theory. It could very well be something else. Same way Aguero deputizing Messi in Argentina is not proof or evidence that Messi is better than Aguero at taking penalties. Stop making stuff up. This is very simple. You don't want to talk about statistics but you have been the one trumpeting that the rule is based on being the best PK taker on the team. If that's the case, why is there no statistics that Ramos is the best PK taker on the team. Do you think this is a beer parlor. Talismen and scorers take penalties. That's the tradition. Your rule doesn't exist. I've debunked it with statistical evidence that an orangutan can understand. The exceptions to this tradition are outliers. If Messi can be be the primary PK taker when Aguero a better PK taker is on the team, and likewise with Neymar at PSG; then there is no conceivable reason why Bale should not be the primary PK taker in Madrid over Ramos. And I can back that inference up with statistical evidence. It is not a surprise that you'd ignore evidence. Making stuff up is your forte! -Lord |
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