₦airaland Forum

Deadlytruth:
That was very dishonest of you. JWs actually started the use of abusive language while others only respond. Your decision to present the reverse as the case shows you are not different from your very brothers you seem to be admonishing.
Check the first mention of me by Peaceful Love and you'll see how he began my mention with outright insults. I am not surprised anyway because I really don't expect JWs to be that honest.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but as I mentioned earlier, I didn't read the whole thing. I skipped up to 90% sef. I only noticed the back and forth banter. My point is that, even if it started somewhere, it should have stopped somewhere. This whole thread is actually serving as a witness to some people. I'm even getting educated personally. Please, both parties should try to keep it to a minimum.
But to be honest, I always laugh when I see comments from one particular guy that always quotes John 8 vs 44 and then a JW lashes him back with that scripture. I just imagine two people kicking a football from both sides simultaneously

lordtim001:
Sorry, you didn't say it outrightly. And to be honest, I haven't read through all the 250 pages. But from the little I have read, you guys always seems to be contrasting the NWT with the KJV. In other words, you approve of it.
I have nothing against any Bible translation. But the fact is that, many of these translators have received knowledge about these issues and refuse to change them.

Whether outrightly or not outrightly I have never said KJV is infallible and upright.

Because your nwt changes/edits their bible according to their current beliefs? You want to compare nwt changing it's stance to other translations who don't change their stance?
I think someone has explained to you about easter in KJV and passover or meal in other translations.

lordtim001:
I have no problem with translations using words that might imply that the same thing. But Easter and Passover are two completely different things. A simple Google search will help you know that. In fact, without Google, we know that the Passover has been celebrated since the time of Moses. But Easter is not even biblical, talkless of being SIMILAR to Passover. Thank God you mentioned it that the NWT was revised. But if you mention a revised Bible, people would ask you whether it is a school textbook that you are revising The translators did this all in an effort to stick as closely as possible to the original text

Who told you easter and passover are not the same thing. Passover and meal are they the same thing?
Nwt is revised according to jw current beliefs on issues. The translators of your Bible if they stuck to the original text as close as possible jehovah will not be in new testament 218 times.
You don't want me to enter your Bible and your old and current beliefs.

Hairyrapunzel:
Who told you easter and passover are not the same thing. Passover and meal are they the same thing?
Nwt is revised according to jw current beliefs on issues. The translators of your Bible if they stuck to the original text as close as possible jehovah will not be in new testament 218 times.
You don't want me to enter your Bible and your old and current beliefs.

I'm not talking about the NWT here. You can see that I mentioned other translations. In fact, I can give you more than 10 of them that did not use Easter.Funny enough, from my research, only KJV used Easter...And who told you that they are the same?
In the celebration of Easter, you have four stages : Palm Sunday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Easter Monday. The only thing they might have in common is the fact that Jesus celebrated the Passover shortly before his death( before Good Friday).Passover is pre-christian, while Easter started being celebrated by people after Jesus's death. What KJV is trying to imply is that the disciples celebrated Easter, when we know that it is not true. In fact, who gave it the name?

AND

If you agree that the word Kyrios appeared in the New Statement referring to someone other than Jesus, then you should not be surprised when it is translated as Jehovah instead of Lord. After all, God/Lord is a title used for Jesus also

lordtim001:
I'm not talking about the NWT here. You can see that I mentioned other translations. In fact, I can give you more than 10 of them that did not use Easter.Funny enough, from my research, only KJV used Easter...And who told you that they are the same?
In the celebration of Easter, you have four stages : Palm Sunday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Easter Monday. The only thing they might have in common is the fact that Jesus celebrated the Passover shortly before his death( before Good Friday).Passover is pre-christian, while Easter started being celebrated by people after Jesus's death. What KJV is trying to imply is that the disciples celebrated Easter, when we know that it is not true. In fact, who gave it the name?

AND

If you agree that the word Kyrios appeared in the New Statement referring to someone other than Jesus, then you should not be surprised when it is translated as Jehovah instead of Lord. After all, God/Lord is a title used for Jesus also

Since its only KJV that used the word easter according to you it should be telling you that they knew what they where writing.
Acts 12:4
4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Pascha" is a polyseme, a word with multiple meanings. In certain contexts it refers to the Jewish Passover (celebration of the Exodus). In other contexts it refers to the Christian Easter. When used by Jews in a context prior to Christ’s resurrection, the word always refers to the Jewish Passover. However, when used by Greek Christians in a context after Christ’s resurrection the word refers to Easter

I don't see anything wrong in KJV using easter there and I don't think the writers where implying the disciples celebrated easter.




In celebration of easter you don't have any four stages. Easter is easter. Good Friday is good Friday, palm Sunday is not palm Sunday. Easter is celebration of resurrection of Christ simple. Don't come here and tell us your gb deceitful explanation of easter.


So you know that kyrios means God/Lord then you have to assume that since God's name is jehovah you should insert it (your assumption) in the place anywhere kyrios is mentioned right?

You even have done worse than what you said KJV writers where doing. You put something not there in fact never seen in the new testament because of an assumption. At least KJV used easter the correct meaning of the Greek word pascha.

lordtim001:
I'm not talking about the NWT here. You can see that I mentioned other translations. In fact, I can give you more than 10 of them that did not use Easter.Funny enough, from my research, only KJV used Easter...And who told you that they are the same?
In the celebration of Easter, you have four stages : Palm Sunday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Easter Monday. The only thing they might have in common is the fact that Jesus celebrated the Passover shortly before his death( before Good Friday).Passover is pre-christian, while Easter started being celebrated by people after Jesus's death. What KJV is trying to imply is that the disciples celebrated Easter, when we know that it is not true. In fact, who gave it the name?

AND

If you agree that the word Kyrios appeared in the New Statement referring to someone other than Jesus, then you should not be surprised when it is translated as Jehovah instead of Lord. After all, God/Lord is a title used for Jesus also

You are not talking of nwt here. Lol. You wanna discredit KJV while your gb approved translation is guilty of inserting assumptions into the bible as it relates to their ever changing beliefs.
You know why I love KJV, its beliefs are not ever changing. What's true today is true tomorrow. They don't insert what's not in the original Greek manuscript into the Bible because they are assuming. Unlike your nwt whose belief are ever changing, what's true today will become false tomorrow. You guys insert what's not even in the original Greek manuscript 237 times claiming that your god's divine name was remove without a trace from his word by early bible writers (no proof for this belief o. It's just based on assumption of Nathan knorr and his cronies) and you people put it back.

Still till today the original Greek manuscript doesn't have the word jehovah in it.

Hairyrapunzel:
Since its only KJV that used the word easter according to you it should be telling you that they knew what they where writing.
Acts 12:4
4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Pascha" is a polyseme, a word with multiple meanings. In certain contexts it refers to the Jewish Passover (celebration of the Exodus). In other contexts it refers to the Christian Easter. When used by Jews in a context prior to Christ’s resurrection, the word always refers to the Jewish Passover. However, when used by Greek Christians in a context after Christ’s resurrection the word refers to Easter

I don't see anything wrong in KJV using easter there and I don't think the writers where implying the disciples celebrated easter.




In celebration of easter you don't have any four stages. Easter is easter. Good Friday is good Friday, palm Sunday is not palm Sunday. Easter is celebration of resurrection of Christ simple. Don't come here and tell us your gb deceitful explanation of easter.


So you know that kyrios means God/Lord then you have to assume that since God's name is jehovah you should insert it (your assumption) in the place anywhere kyrios is mentioned right?

You even have done worse than what you said KJV writers where doing. You put something not there in fact never seen in the new testament because of an assumption. At least KJV used easter the correct meaning of the Greek word pascha.

So, the celebration of Easter does not encompass those 4 stages? And can you tell me where the Governing Body provided that explanation as to Easter? Jehovah's Witnesses are far more educated and reasonable than you think. We can think for ourselves and explain things by ourselves

And yes, you are right. Jehovah was added because that is was it is supposed to be translated as. For example, someone says "a ball" and the rest of the text explains that this ball is "played with a bat and it is played on a table". Then, when I translated it, I called it a ping pong ball. Another person calls it a table tennis ball.Are we wrong?

Believe it or not, Passover and Easter are not the same o. Do you kill a goat and sprinkle it's blood on your doorstep or eat of the bread and wine during Easter?

If you think you examine JW beliefs more than JWs, you are totally wrong. I have read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans, Kingdom that never came by Joseph Wilting, Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonnson. I even have all the Seven Volumes of Studies in The Scriptures by Russell....And you know what I have realized??

Despite the fact that some things we believed in were barbaric, the fact remains that we were humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. I read in one of the Studies in the Scriptures that Russell believed that God's throne is in the Pleiades star because of the thick mist covering that place. Know who else had that belief? Mormons....But guess what? After careful consideration, JWs quickly changed their belief. But up till TODAY, Mormons still believe that God's throne is in that star....Same thing goes with the issue of vaccination and many others

lordtim001:
If you think you examine JW beliefs more than JWs, you are totally wrong. I have read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans, Kingdom that never came by Joseph Wilting, Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonnson. I even have all the Seven Volumes of Studies in The Scriptures by Russell....And you know what I have realized??

Despite the fact that some things we believed in were barbaric, the fact remains that we were humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. I read in one of the Studies in the Scriptures that Russell believed that God's throne is in the Pleiades star because of the thick mist covering that place. Know who else had that belief? Mormons....But guess what? After careful consideration, JWs quickly changed their belief. But up till TODAY, Mormons still believe that God's throne is in that star....Same thing goes with the issue of vaccination and many others

The real issue about your ever changing beliefs is not about being humble to admit when you realize you are wrong but about the fact that your beliefs are not guided by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised as the coming perfect and infallible teacher and interpreter of the word of God. The Holy Spirit can't really guide you to believe a thing is true today, and some few years later tells you it had on studying further realized that it was wrong about what it made you believe initially. Such inconsistency definitely can't come from the Holy Spirit but from men.
Moreover, simple courtesy and humility demands that, before going ahead to spread your new doctrine of realization that God's throne is not really in the Pleiades Star, you first appologize and give credit to the other Christians with whom you initially disagreed about that and even went as far as referring to them as being led by the devil for not agreeing with you on your initial stance on that issue. But your organization never so appologizes obviously due to arrogance and egoism which are themselves fruits of the flesh.

lordtim001:
So, the celebration of Easter does not encompass those 4 stages? And can you tell me where the Governing Body provided that explanation as to Easter? Jehovah's Witnesses are far more educated and reasonable than you think. We can think for ourselves and explain things by ourselves

And yes, you are right. Jehovah was added because that is was it is supposed to be translated as. For example, someone says "a ball" and the rest of the text explains that this ball is "played with a bat and it is played on a table". Then, when I translated it, I called it a ping pong ball. Another person calls it a table tennis ball.Are we wrong?

Believe it or not, Passover and Easter are not the same o. Do you kill a goat and sprinkle it's blood on your doorstep or eat of the bread and wine during Easter?

Easter is resurrection of Christ Jesus. It doesn't encompass any 4 stages.

Jws think for themselves? Should I show you where gb said independent thinking isn't allowed? Lol. If you think for yourself you wouldn't be saying what you said about easter.

We eat bread and wine during easter we don't sprinkle goats blood on our doorstep. We are not Jews and hence don't practice Judaism.

Stop giving excuse for addition of something never mentioned in the original Greek manuscript. Your leaders added something that was never there simple. If you like o explain from here to Jericho till date jehovah isn't mentioned once in the original Greek manuscript.

Pascha is a Greek word with easter or passover as it's meaning.


For example, someone says "a ball" and the rest of the text explains that this ball is "played with a bat and it is played on a table". Then, when I translated it, I called it a ping pong ball. Another person calls it a table tennis ball.Are we wrong?

If you like create your own assumption. Jehovah is never mentioned in the original Greek manuscript.

Let's analyse your assumption
Your assumption is imaginary while jehovah not being mentioned once in the original Greek manuscript is real life.
At least you said ball was mentioned in the text and the same text they said the ball is played on a table and played with a bat.
You ain't wrong to translate it as ping pong or table tennis ball.

It is wrong to translate it to ping pong or table tennis ball when ball isn't mentioned or when they didn't tell you the ball is played with a bat and on a table just like you guys translated kyrios to jehovah.
Kyrios isn't translated as jehovah but you guys just put it there because you think/assume that it may be so.


Let me conclude your assumption.
Ball was mentioned in the text and they didn't tell you in the text that the ball was played with a bat and played on a table yet you assumed and translated the ball to table tennis ball or ping pong ball.


Take home for today

You don't insert something that was never there in the first place into the Bible and call it translation.
Nwt at the end of the day inserted jehovah 237 times in their bible.

lordtim001:
If you think you examine JW beliefs more than JWs, you are totally wrong. I have read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans, Kingdom that never came by Joseph Wilting, Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonnson. I even have all the Seven Volumes of Studies in The Scriptures by Russell....And you know what I have realized??

Despite the fact that some things we believed in were barbaric, the fact remains that we were humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. I read in one of the Studies in the Scriptures that Russell believed that God's throne is in the Pleiades star because of the thick mist covering that place. Know who else had that belief? Mormons....But guess what? After careful consideration, JWs quickly changed their belief. But up till TODAY, Mormons still believe that God's throne is in that star....Same thing goes with the issue of vaccination and many others

Which humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. The people that died before the change died in error.

Those that where disfellowshipped and shunned for doing things that where considered anti gb interpretation prior to the change Nko?
After the change what these people where punished for in the past became the right thing.

The holy spirit that directs your organization is always changing his mind abi its the imperfect uninspired and fallible human beings directing your organization that are always changing their mind? Who
Is it the holy spirit or the gb?

Think of the people that died before your gb approved organ transplant, vaccination and blood fractions for their members.

If na Catholics change their beliefs you will start shouting false prophet/religion but if jw change their beliefs you will say it being humble to change their beliefs. Hypocrisy

lordtim001:
If you think you examine JW beliefs more than JWs, you are totally wrong. I have read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, Reluctant Apostate by Lloyd Evans, Kingdom that never came by Joseph Wilting, Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonnson. I even have all the Seven Volumes of Studies in The Scriptures by Russell....And you know what I have realized??

Despite the fact that some things we believed in were barbaric, the fact remains that we were humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. I read in one of the Studies in the Scriptures that Russell believed that God's throne is in the Pleiades star because of the thick mist covering that place. Know who else had that belief? Mormons....But guess what? After careful consideration, JWs quickly changed their belief. But up till TODAY, Mormons still believe that God's throne is in that star....Same thing goes with the issue of vaccination and many others

They thought Christianity is about holding onto old traditions of their FAKE church founders! When Jehovah's Witnesses are making improvements in what we believe, a member of their so called churches will just leave to start yet another church but still remains their affiliate even if such CLEARLY points out the errors in their religion,as long as he won't claim to be the one and only like JWs he is welcomed into the fold of their numerous religious groups having conflicting teachings and contradicting doctrines!

TATIME:
They thought Christianity is about holding onto old traditions of their FAKE church founders! When Jehovah's Witnesses are making improvements in what we believe, a member of their so called churches will just leave to start yet another church but still remains their affiliate even if such CLEARLY points out the errors in their religion,as long as he won't claim to be the one and only like JWs he is welcomed into the fold of their numerous religious groups having conflicting teachings and contradicting doctrines!

False belief today will turn true belief tomorrow. Lol.ever changing doctrines. Error filled doctrines.

TATIME:
They thought Christianity is about holding onto old traditions of their FAKE church founders! When Jehovah's Witnesses are making improvements in what we believe, a member of their so called churches will just leave to start yet another church but still remains their affiliate even if such CLEARLY points out the errors in their religion,as long as he won't claim to be the one and only like JWs he is welcomed into the fold of their numerous religious groups having conflicting teachings and contradicting doctrines!

As per the bolded; how did Russell and the rest start what eventually became JW if not by breaking away from an already existing church?
What is contradictory in the beliefs of the other denominations? Is it the Trinity, blood transfusion, hell fire belief, celebration of birthdays, etc which you accuse all of them of having as their doctrines?

Gal. 1:8 says:
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell

Isn't this enough to tell you that change of belief in the name of improvement is scrpturally wrong? In the passage above Paul made it clear that even he himself was not permitted to change or make adjustments to the doctrine he first preached to them since it came from Jesus Christ Himself. Therefore any set of supposedly Christian belief which keeps changing in the name of improvement is definitely neither inspired by Jesus nor guided by the Holy Spirit. Such is the category into which your organization falls.

Hairyrapunzel:
False belief today will turn true belief tomorrow. Lol.ever changing doctrines. Error filled doctrines.

Nearly every belief of the other groups they term apostates later became the truth from a brighter light to them. Then one begins to wonder who was the apostate all that while.

Hairyrapunzel:
Which humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. The people that died before the change died in error.

Those that where disfellowshipped and shunned for doing things that where considered anti gb interpretation prior to the change Nko?
After the change what these people where punished for in the past became the right thing.

The holy spirit that directs your organization is always changing his mind abi its the imperfect uninspired and fallible human beings directing your organization that are always changing their mind? Who
Is it the holy spirit or the gb?

Think of the people that died before your gb approved organ transplant, vaccination and blood fractions for their members.

If na Catholics change their beliefs you will start shouting false prophet/religion but if jw change their beliefs you will say it being humble to change their beliefs. Hypocrisy

Whether blood transfusion or not,what matters to God is these people kept what they knew FAITHFULLY until death. So God will resurrect them to come and learn the perfect LAWS later. 1Corinthians 13:12
It's those whose conscience have been worrying them over something they heard yet refused to give a second thought or those who can SEE that there is an organization that's moving FAITHFULLY as one yet refused to inquire of it that God will forget completely!

Deadlytruth:
Nearly every belief of the other groups they term apostates later became the truth from a brighter light to them. Then one begins to wonder who was the apostate all that while.

Not until you're able to make your folks give up weapons and other harmful practices, JWs sees all of you as worshipers of the same god! 1John 5:19

TATIME:
Whether blood transfusion or not,what matters to God is these people kept what they knew FAITHFULLY until death. So God will resurrect them to come and learn the perfect LAWS later. 1Corinthians 13:12
It's those whose conscience have been worrying them over something they heard yet refused to give a second thought or those who can SEE that there is an organization that's moving FAITHFULLY as one yet refused to inquire of it that God will forget completely!

Buhaha. They died in error eya. Man made rules that changed later on made them die. Lol. So your laws are imperfect yet your leaders say you must obey them if you don't their jehovah will slaughter you in Armageddon while they will disfellowship and family and friends will shun you while on earth.
Dying in error. Lol

Hairyrapunzel:
Buhaha. They died in error eya. Man made rules that changed later on made them die. Lol. So your laws are imperfect yet your leaders say you must obey them if you don't their jehovah will slaughter you in Armageddon while they will disfellowship and family and friends will shun you while on earth.
Dying in error. Lol

These are Jehovah's Witnesses increasing in addition to the 8,000,000 everyday and remaining faithful to our GB.
They believe Jesus is using them through the GB therefore they are teaching others to subject themselves to our GB.
So go and stop them from obeying our GB,because you have no group that worth calling your own

Hairyrapunzel:
Which humble enough to change them as quickly as possible. The people that died before the change died in error.

Those that where disfellowshipped and shunned for doing things that where considered anti gb interpretation prior to the change Nko?
After the change what these people where punished for in the past became the right thing.

The holy spirit that directs your organization is always changing his mind abi its the imperfect uninspired and fallible human beings directing your organization that are always changing their mind? Who
Is it the holy spirit or the gb?

Think of the people that died before your gb approved organ transplant, vaccination and blood fractions for their members.

If na Catholics change their beliefs you will start shouting false prophet/religion but if jw change their beliefs you will say it being humble to change their beliefs. Hypocrisy

Organ transplants were not put in the same light as blood. I get it that one article referred to it as cannibalism, but still it wasn't a disfellowshipping offence. Some people blew it out of proportion....And even the article on vaccination in the 1930s was in the Golden Age (Back then, Golden Age accepted articles from different people, professors and other professionals). All the people back then believed that vaccination was more than dangerous than beneficial. (Read up about the funny way they used to perform vaccinations back then). In the 1950s, after they had heard that a lot of brothers were taking it in the same vein as blood, they came around to address the issue....These matters are best left to conscience. Even regarding blood fractions, I still cannot take them because it is still a part of blood no matter how small. And this blood is donated by someone

And by the way, no one would criticize anyone for changing their belief, IF they are changing it from the wrong thing to the right thing.

CASE STUDY

When the Pope came out to say that there was no hellfire around last year or two years ago, funny enough, it was the Catholics that were blasting him. Many Jws only commented that it was nice as he changed his stance

The truth is that most of you have a valid point. Many people have written letters on these issues and they may not get replied, only for the light to change and this might be years after some people might have died....And of course, prophecy. As a JW, I say it here before everyone that we have failed in prophecy. More than 7 prophecies failed....And they keep changing terms to fit the description. Like this "generation" issue. I have discussed it with my family members and I keep saying that that prophecy is a fluke. It doesn't have a modern day fulfillment. I just hope that the Governing Body will be wise enough to retract that statement when all the older members of the Governing Body die off (It is understood that Mark Sanderson and Kenneth Cook are not part of the generation because they might not have been anointed before Fredrick Franz, the oldest in the first set died. At least, they say the generation consists of two contemporary groups )
It's all confusing, but I hope they would come out clean when it doesn't happen instead of calling it failed expectations

Hairyrapunzel:
Easter is resurrection of Christ Jesus. It doesn't encompass any 4 stages.

Jws think for themselves? Should I show you where gb said independent thinking isn't allowed? Lol. If you think for yourself you wouldn't be saying what you said about easter.

We eat bread and wine during easter we don't sprinkle goats blood on our doorstep. We are not Jews and hence don't practice Judaism.

Stop giving excuse for addition of something never mentioned in the original Greek manuscript. Your leaders added something that was never there simple. If you like o explain from here to Jericho till date jehovah isn't mentioned once in the original Greek manuscript.

Pascha is a Greek word with easter or passover as it's meaning.


For example, someone says "a ball" and the rest of the text explains that this ball is "played with a bat and it is played on a table". Then, when I translated it, I called it a ping pong ball. Another person calls it a table tennis ball.Are we wrong?

If you like create your own assumption. Jehovah is never mentioned in the original Greek manuscript.

Let's analyse your assumption
Your assumption is imaginary while jehovah not being mentioned once in the original Greek manuscript is real life.
At least you said ball was mentioned in the text and the same text they said the ball is played on a table and played with a bat.
You ain't wrong to translate it as ping pong or table tennis ball.

It is wrong to translate it to ping pong or table tennis ball when ball isn't mentioned or when they didn't tell you the ball is played with a bat and on a table just like you guys translated kyrios to jehovah.
Kyrios isn't translated as jehovah but you guys just put it there because you think/assume that it may be so.


Let me conclude your assumption.
Ball was mentioned in the text and they didn't tell you in the text that the ball was played with a bat and played on a table yet you assumed and translated the ball to table tennis ball or ping pong ball.


Take home for today

You don't insert something that was never there in the first place into the Bible and call it translation.
Nwt at the end of the day inserted jehovah 237 times in their bible.

Please show me where it said that independent thinking is not allowed.

Good, thank God you admitted that you do not sprinkle blood on your doorstep. Easter was not being celebrated and this does not mean that replaced the Passover for Christians. And I also read in Easton's Bible Dictionary, written by Thomas Nelson Publ that the KJV totally replaced Passover with Easter everywhere it appeared. It was the Revised Edition that changed everything and retained Easter only in the scripture at Romans 12 vs 4. So much for not changing things

lordtim001:
Organ transplants were not put in the same light as blood. I get it that one article referred to it as cannibalism, but still it wasn't a disfellowshipping offence. Some people blew it out of proportion....And even the article on vaccination in the 1930s was in the Golden Age (Back then, Golden Age accepted articles from different people, professors and other professionals). All the people back then believed that vaccination was more than dangerous than beneficial. (Read up about the funny way they used to perform vaccinations back then). In the 1950s, after they had heard that a lot of brothers were taking it in the same vein as blood, they came around to address the issue....These matters are best left to conscience. Even regarding blood fractions, I still cannot take them because it is still a part of blood no matter how small. And this blood is donated by someone

And by the way, no one would criticize anyone for changing their belief, IF they are changing it from the wrong thing to the right thing.

CASE STUDY

When the Pope came out to say that there was no hellfire around last year or two years ago, funny enough, it was the Catholics that were blasting him. Many Jws only commented that it was nice as he changed his stance

Lol. It was a disfellowshipping offence. Don't come here to lie. Vaccination, organ transplant and blood fractions were disfellowshipping offences. Watchtower said it was cannibalism. You want to blame other people for your leaders errors. Which all. Jehovah witnesses believed that they were more dangerous than beneficial because their leaders told them so.

Don't come and act like it's the people that deceived your leaders. It's the other way round. Think of people who died as a result of not taking blood fractions before they became a conscience matter they died for nothing.

You people can pride yourselves on taking blood fractions gotten from blood donated by non jws whereas you people say donating blood is not good and a disfellowshipping offence. Hypocrites.

You guys criticize Catholics or Mormons for changing their beliefs. You tag them false religion/false prophets because of this.

Your case study is rubbish
At least catholics can criticize their leader it shows they ain't zombies like you people. Once your gb change their stance they expect you not to complain. If you complain you are disfellowshipped and shunned on top man made assumptions that are made to doctrines. Religion of ever changing beliefs. Hypocrisy

lordtim001:
Please show me where it said that independent thinking is not allowed.

Good, thank God you admitted that you do not sprinkle blood on your doorstep. Easter was not being celebrated and this does not mean that replaced the Passover for Christians. And I also read in Easton's Bible Dictionary, written by Thomas Nelson Publ that the KJV totally replaced Passover with Easter everywhere it appeared. It was the Revised Edition that changed everything and retained Easter only in the scripture at Romans 12 vs 4. So much for not changing things

How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization. For example, God’s organization has from time to time given warnings about listening to certain types of immoral and suggestive music, and about frequenting discos and other types of worldly dance halls where such music is played and people are known to engage in immoral conduct. (1 Corinthians 15:33) Yet certain ones have professed to know better. They have rebelled against such counsel and have done what is right in their own eyes. With what result? Very often they have become involved in sexual immorality and have suffered severe spiritual harm. But even if they have not been so affected, are they not reprehensible if others follow their example and suffer bad consequences?-Matthew 18:6. – The Watchtower, 1/15/1983, page 22, para 21, “Exposing the Devil’s Subtle Designs”



19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: “This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.” This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous? 20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: “Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: “Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God’s organization?” No, we cannot! -Compare Acts 15:2, 28, 29; 16:4, 5. – The Watchtower, 1/15/1983, page 27, “Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits”


In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: “The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead.” [b]But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. [/b]For instance, only those meeting Scriptural requirements are appointed as elders. (1 Timothy 3:1-7) They are trained to be kind, loving, and helpful, yet firm in upholding Jehovah’s righteous standards. The elders adhere to Scriptural truth, ‘holding firmly to the faithful word, that they may be able to exhort by healthful teaching.’ (Titus 1:5-9) Of course, we should not magnify their human imperfections, for all of us are imperfect. (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12) Instead of feeling frustrated by their limitations and treating their counsel lightly, let us appreciate and accept the Bible-based direction of the elders as coming from God. – The Watchtower, 9/15/1989, Page 23, para 13, “Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead”


Take home

Rather than questioning God’s Word, the Watchtower says that independent thinkers question “the counsel that is provided by God’s visibile organization

Independent thinkers are cast, not as questioning God Himself, but thinking they know better than the organization.

lordtim001:
Please show me where it said that independent thinking is not allowed.

Good, thank God you admitted that you do not sprinkle blood on your doorstep. Easter was not being celebrated and this does not mean that replaced the Passover for Christians. And I also read in Easton's Bible Dictionary, written by Thomas Nelson Publ that the KJV totally replaced Passover with Easter everywhere it appeared. It was the Revised Edition that changed everything and retained Easter only in the scripture at Romans 12 vs 4. So much for not changing things

From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago . . " (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981).



First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding." Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14


"Jehovah uses his organization to teach and feed his people. (Matt. 24:45-47) Hence believe without suspicion the truth set forth by the “faithful and discreet slave.”" Watchtower 1962 Sep 1 p.524



To turn away from Jehovah and his organization, to spurn the direction of "the faithful and discreet slave," and [b]to rely simply on personal Bible reading and interpretation is to become like a solitary tree in a parched land." [/b]Watchtower 1985 Jun 1 p.20

lordtim001:
Please show me where it said that independent thinking is not allowed.

Good, thank God you admitted that you do not sprinkle blood on your doorstep. Easter was not being celebrated and this does not mean that replaced the Passover for Christians. And I also read in Easton's Bible Dictionary, written by Thomas Nelson Publ that the KJV totally replaced Passover with Easter everywhere it appeared. It was the Revised Edition that changed everything and retained Easter only in the scripture at Romans 12 vs 4. So much for not changing things

First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time"-through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions-we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.-Matthew 24:45. Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14


We also remember that one feature of 'the wisdom from above' is being 'ready to obey.' Due to background and upbringing, some may be more given to independent thinking and self-will than others. Perhaps this is an area where we need to discipline ourselves and 'make our mind over' so that we can perceive more clearly what the 'will of God' is." Watchtower 1987 Feb 1 p.19


Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions." Watchtower 1986 Mar 15 p.17

The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization." Watchtower 1974 Jul 15 p.441


If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'Believe all things,' all the things that the Watchtower brings out" Qualified to be Ministers (1955) p.156


Am I a zombie that will swallow everything some human beings tell me hook line and sinker because these human beings told me to swallow it like that?
I no be zombie I no be mumu I no be robot.

Hairyrapunzel:
Lol. It was a disfellowshipping offence. Don't come here to lie. Vaccination, organ transplant and blood fractions were disfellowshipping offences. Watchtower said it was cannibalism. You want to blame other people for your leaders errors. Which all. Jehovah witnesses believed that they were more dangerous than beneficial because their leaders told them so.

Don't come and act like it's the people that deceived your leaders. It's the other way round. Think of people who died as a result of not taking blood fractions before they became a conscience matter they died for nothing.

You people can pride yourselves on taking blood fractions gotten from blood donated by non jws whereas you people say donating blood is not good and a disfellowshipping offence. Hypocrites.

You guys criticize Catholics or Mormons for changing their beliefs. You tag them false religion/false prophets because of this.

Your case study is rubbish
At least catholics can criticize their leader it shows they ain't zombies like you people. Once your gb change their stance they expect you not to complain. If you complain you are disfellowshipped and shunned on top man made assumptions that are made to doctrines. Religion of ever changing beliefs. Hypocrisy

Na wa o . You said Jws tag other people as false religion when they change their beliefs. I gave you a case study and you still refused to accept it. Then, show me where they attacked other religions for changing their beliefs WHEN IT CONFORMS WITH BIBLE TEACHINGS

And those vaccination and organ transplants were not disfellowshipping offences. I don't know about blood fractions. The thing is that people keep assuming and not one single person who fell out of the organization could bring proof to show that he was disfellowshipped for the above, despite how aggressive and opposing they can be

lordtim001:
Please show me where it said that independent thinking is not allowed.

Good, thank God you admitted that you do not sprinkle blood on your doorstep. Easter was not being celebrated and this does not mean that replaced the Passover for Christians. And I also read in Easton's Bible Dictionary, written by Thomas Nelson Publ that the KJV totally replaced Passover with Easter everywhere it appeared. It was the Revised Edition that changed everything and retained Easter only in the scripture at Romans 12 vs 4. So much for not changing things

Lol continue assuming. I am sure the same Thomas nelson also told you the Greek word pascha means Easter and passover.
At least the pascha is easter that's OK for me. It's not like some people that put a word where it's never seen. No Greek word for jehovah in the new testament yet they assumed and put it where it is never seen.

Hairyrapunzel:
First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time"-through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions-we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.-Matthew 24:45. Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14


We also remember that one feature of 'the wisdom from above' is being 'ready to obey.' Due to background and upbringing, some may be more given to independent thinking and self-will than others. Perhaps this is an area where we need to discipline ourselves and 'make our mind over' so that we can perceive more clearly what the 'will of God' is." Watchtower 1987 Feb 1 p.19


Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions." Watchtower 1986 Mar 15 p.17

The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization." Watchtower 1974 Jul 15 p.441


If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'Believe all things,' all the things that the Watchtower brings out" Qualified to be Ministers (1955) p.156


Am I a zombie that will swallow everything some human beings tell me hook line and sinker because these human beings told me to swallow it like that?
I no be zombie I no be mumu I no be robot.

I have never seen those articles before, but thanks for showing them to me. I am also independent in thinking. There are many things I do not also agree with, and I hope clarity comes or at least, they accept the faults

lordtim001:
Na wa o . You said Jws tag other people as false religion when they change their beliefs. I gave you a case study and you still refused to accept it. Then, show me where they attacked other religions for changing their beliefs WHEN IT CONFORMS WITH BIBLE TEACHINGS

And those vaccination and organ transplants were not disfellowshipping offences. I don't know about blood fractions. The thing is that people keep assuming and not one single person who fell out of the organization could bring proof to show that he was disfellowshipped for the above, despite how aggressive and opposing they can be

In an experience of a Mormon that converted to being a Jehovah's Witness, it is ironic that one of his reasons was:
"I dug deeper into the teachings of my faith and also consulted with responsible Mormon Church leaders. I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter." Watchtower 2013 Feb 1 p.9


Tell me," he asked, "how can I have confidence in anything? How can I believe in the Bible, in God, or have faith? Just ten years ago we Catholics had the absolute truth, we put all our faith in this. Now the pope and our priests are telling us this is not the way to believe any more, but we are to believe 'new things.' How do I know the 'new things' will be the truth in five years?"" Awake! 1970 Apr 22 p.8


Satan, who pretends to be “an angel of light,” has made clever use of false religion in misleading people. (2 Cor. 11:14) Under the guise of Christianity, Christendom teaches doctrines—including the Trinity, hellfire, and immortality of the soul—that are awash in myths and falsehoods. Christendom also promotes holidays, such as Christmas and Easter, whose seemingly innocent customs are actually rooted in mythology and paganism." (Watchtower 7/15/2011, p. 17 par. 11 Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings?)

When you promote your doctrines not in the Bible which would later change you will say new light


When you preach false doctrines which are not even seen in the Bible and you are not sure of you will say god will make the teaching clear in due time


For the most part, the religions of Christendom have ignored the hope of everlasting life on earth. Whereas the Bible teaches that the soul dies, the majority of churches teach the unscriptural doctrine that man has an immortal soul that survives death and lives on in the spirit realm." (Watchtower 8/15/2009, p. 3 par. 2 Everlasting Life on Earth—A God-Given Hope)

Your unscriptural blood transfusion ban isn't considered false doctrine by your Leaders. Lol


On the other hand, Christendom deserves the coming destruction for contributing to the spiritual illiteracy common among churchgoers and for its manifest hatred of God’s name." (Watchtower 1/15/2011, p. 4 par. 9 “Take Refuge in the Name of Jehovah”)


the execution of divine judgment upon the apostate kingdom of Israel makes it certain that God will bring destruction upon Christendom, the most reprehensible part of “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion." (Watchtower 11/15/2004, p. 19 par. 20, Jehovah’s Judgment Will Come Against the Wicked)


[b]Christ’s “presence” since 1914 [/b]has gone unnoticed by most of earth’s inhabitants. (2 Pet. 3:3, 4) Soon, however, he will make his presence manifest by executing Jehovah’s judgments on the various elements of Satan’s system of things. The destruction of “the man of lawlessness,” the clergy of Christendom, will be an unmistakable “manifestation of his presence.” (Watchtower 9/15/2010, p. 28 par. 13 Our Active Leader Today)

Unscriptural beliefs.

Hairyrapunzel:
In an experience of a Mormon that converted to being a Jehovah's Witness, it is ironic that one of his reasons was:
"I dug deeper into the teachings of my faith and also consulted with responsible Mormon Church leaders. I was told that the answers to my questions involved mysteries that one day would be solved as the light became brighter." Watchtower 2013 Feb 1 p.9


Tell me," he asked, "how can I have confidence in anything? How can I believe in the Bible, in God, or have faith? Just ten years ago we Catholics had the absolute truth, we put all our faith in this. Now the pope and our priests are telling us this is not the way to believe any more, but we are to believe 'new things.' How do I know the 'new things' will be the truth in five years?"" Awake! 1970 Apr 22 p.8


Satan, who pretends to be “an angel of light,” has made clever use of false religion in misleading people. (2 Cor. 11:14) Under the guise of Christianity, Christendom teaches doctrines—including the Trinity, hellfire, and immortality of the soul—that are awash in myths and falsehoods. Christendom also promotes holidays, such as Christmas and Easter, whose seemingly innocent customs are actually rooted in mythology and paganism." (Watchtower 7/15/2011, p. 17 par. 11 Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings?)

When you promote your doctrines not in the Bible which would later change you will say new light


When you preach false doctrines which are not even seen in the Bible and you are not sure of you will say god will make the teaching clear in due time


For the most part, the religions of Christendom have ignored the hope of everlasting life on earth. Whereas the Bible teaches that the soul dies, the majority of churches teach the unscriptural doctrine that man has an immortal soul that survives death and lives on in the spirit realm." (Watchtower 8/15/2009, p. 3 par. 2 Everlasting Life on Earth—A God-Given Hope)

Your unscriptural blood transfusion ban isn't considered false doctrine by your Leaders. Lol


On the other hand, Christendom deserves the coming destruction for contributing to the spiritual illiteracy common among churchgoers and for its manifest hatred of God’s name." (Watchtower 1/15/2011, p. 4 par. 9 “Take Refuge in the Name of Jehovah”)


the execution of divine judgment upon the apostate kingdom of Israel makes it certain that God will bring destruction upon Christendom, the most reprehensible part of “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion." (Watchtower 11/15/2004, p. 19 par. 20, Jehovah’s Judgment Will Come Against the Wicked)


[b]Christ’s “presence” since 1914 [/b]has gone unnoticed by most of earth’s inhabitants. (2 Pet. 3:3, 4) Soon, however, he will make his presence manifest by executing Jehovah’s judgments on the various elements of Satan’s system of things. The destruction of “the man of lawlessness,” the clergy of Christendom, will be an unmistakable “manifestation of his presence.” (Watchtower 9/15/2010, p. 28 par. 13 Our Active Leader Today)

Unscriptural beliefs.

I must hand it to you. You are very dedicated in researching things. But I put it to you that you cannot bring out one single doctrine that is not supported by scripture. The only thing you can say that I will agree to is that misunderstanding of scriptures occur at times. The point is that there IS a scripture in the first place that enforces that thought

And we know that Mormons discredit the Bible but rely on Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon as their guide.

And sorry, my laptop is not with me, otherwise I would have pulled out that 1970 Awake from WT Library to read more about it. I'm really interested....Who was speaking there? And can I get the full article if possible

TATIME:
Not until you're able to make your folks give up weapons and other harmful practices, JWs sees all of you as worshipers of the same god! 1John 5:19

You seem to have forgotten that you were shown here a Watchtower publication in which your organization declared it is non pacifist and admonished her members to bear weapons for defence of self and their doctrines. You have also chosen to forget that your organization pledged allegiance to Adolf Hitler in his crusade of massacre targeted at the Jews. Self delusion is really blissful.
We see JWs as worshippers of the Devil who pretend to the contrary... Matthew 23:28,33.