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Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland

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Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 5:40am On Jun 28, 2019
I really want to ask the muslims here why there issue of atheism in islam is so controversial and deadly. If you compare this to the other major Abrahamic faiths, islam is the strictest religion when it comes to atheism and apostasy.

Israel is so secular. There are many non believing and non-practising Jews in Isreal and America. In fact, studies show that about 41 percent of Israeli people are actually openly secular.

In European countries with a christian background, many of the nationals are openly atheists. In the UK, 53% say that they have no religion and about 33% do not believe in God. This is quite similar to many European countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_Kingdom

However, when it comes to countries with sharia law or a significant majority of muslims, we see atheists being quiet and suppressed. Atheism is illegal and liable for execution in 13 islamic countries
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-atheists/atheists-face-death-in-13-countries-global-discrimination-study-idUSBRE9B900G20131210


In Saudi Arabia, atheism is classified as a terrorist act according to the law
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html




The point of this thread is to ask muslims on this section to explain and or justify why atheists are maltreated in such a way in muslim countries.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 5:51am On Jun 28, 2019
To also bring the issue home, there was the case of Bala Mohammed, an atheist who was locked up in an asylum in Kano because he was an atheist. It took the cries of humanist organisations both locally and internationally to save him.

Tingtinz, here is the story
https://www.nairaland.com/5269656/why-islam-afraid-atheism-apostasy

2 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Empiree: 6:50am On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:
I really want to ask the muslims here why there issue of atheism in islam is so controversial and deadly. If you compare this to the other major Abrahamic faiths, islam is the strictest religion when it comes to atheism and apostasy.

Israel is so secular. There are many non believing and non-practising Jews in Isreal and America. In fact, studies show that about 41 percent of Israeli people are actually openly secular.


Now you can understand why they are forbidden to occupy Ard Al-Muqaddasa. The first condition ordained by God for Jews/Israelites to be entitled to the Holy Land is they MUST have faith in God. Which means there is no room for atheism or disbelieve in God especially on the Holy Land. Ard Al-Muqaddasa belong to theists.


Here, we found condemnation of atheism in John 3:18


“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.



Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 6:57am On Jun 28, 2019
Empiree:
Now you can understand why they are forbidden to occupy Ard Al-Muqaddasa. The first condition ordained by God for Jews/Israelites to be entitled to the Holy Land is they MUST have faith in God. Which means there is no room for atheism or disbelieve in God especially on the Holy Land. Ard Al-Muqaddasa belong to theists.


Here, we found condemnation of atheism in John 3:18


“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.



Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good


Thanks for your contribution. It was out of point as you did not even touch on Islam. That is you did not address Islamic treatment of atheism.

Thanks for your out of point comment.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Empiree: 6:58am On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:



Thanks for your contribution. It was out of point as you did not even touch on Islam. That is you did not address Islamic treatment of atheism.

Thanks for your out of point comment.
shocked Deal With It cool
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 7:15am On Jun 28, 2019
I don't believe the religion advocates for the killing of apostates and atheists. I think that's what happens when we take hadith that may or may not be true and we put them over Quran which is definitely 100% true.

PALESTINE is a muslim country where Jews were implanted. There shouldn't be any Jews anywhere there. Practicing or non practicing. I'm disgusted that youd even use this as an example.

Lol. The UK is not a Christian country. The UK is a neutral country partially ruled by the church of England. I think the last survey I read put the UK as one of the least religious countries in the world. And when I say religious, I mean religion would have an influence on the people. We all know homosexuality is not allowed in christianity and abortion is not allowed in christianity. I think the most religious period in the UK is just Christmas and Easter time really. Even Rome isn't religious at all. Lol in Rome its obvious Christianity is a form of art and a tool to make money lol.
If you want a muslim country like that maybe Dubai, Bosnia or Malaysia?

When Christianity was really influence in Europe before the reformation, they didnt even kill you. Youd be so frustrated youd kill yourself. We all know about the Inquisition. I'm sure you remember the the famous Galileo who was condemned by the church for simply disagreeing with them. I'm not trying to say this is right. I'm just trying to show you that this was the situation when christianity was in control. Honestly and truly, Religion doesn't have much power in Europe anymore.

Okay. I have a genuine question. What's there to talk about in being athiest ? Honestly I have alot of athiest friends. And most of them don't care to talk about God. Ever. I do have a couple that I discuss God with simply for educational purposes. For the most part, I understand they dont believe in God so I am respectful in that and vice versa.
To be completely honest with you, some athiests arent like that. You meet alot of athiests who are arrogant in their knowledge. They think it's silly to believe in God and they exude it. I genuinely dont understand why you'd have a complex about something you dont believe in. I've done a tiny bit of research about the people that have been punished (rarely executed; the number I've seen so far is around 10, feel free to dispute) in those liable countries and they honestly just rude. You can believe theres no God and talk about it without being disrespectful. How are you going to be in a STRICT Muslim country and talk trash about their religion ? It's just rude.. I'm not trying to justify it, wrong is wrong is wrong.

Anyways if we are going to compare countries with a real religious influence, Brazil would be a very very religious Christian country. Athiests face discrimination in brazil all the time. Maybe not as pronounced as the middle east but they're still discriminated against. Hey! In our very own Nigeria, atheists are discriminated against and not just by muslims. By Christians too. Lesbehonest here.

I'm not trying to say it is right. I absolutely hate all form of religious and non religious grin discrimination. I was just trying to expand on your comparison. smiley

5 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by tintingz(m): 8:04am On Jun 28, 2019
Empiree:
Now you can understand why they are forbidden to occupy Ard Al-Muqaddasa. The first condition ordained by God for Jews/Israelites to be entitled to the Holy Land is they MUST have faith in God. Which means there is no room for atheism or disbelieve in God especially on the Holy Land. Ard Al-Muqaddasa belong to theists.


Here, we found condemnation of atheism in John 3:18


“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.



Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good
This is not the premise the OP presented.

1 Like

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Empiree: 8:15am On Jun 28, 2019
tintingz:
This is not the premise the OP presented.
Whatever it is, Deal With It cool
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by tintingz(m): 9:23am On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:


Okay. I have a genuine question. What's there to talk about in being athiest ? Honestly I have alot of athiest friends. And most of them don't care to talk about God. Ever. I do have a couple that I discuss God with simply for educational purposes. For the most part, I understand they dont believe in God so I am respectful in that and vice versa.
To be completely honest with you, some athiests arent like that. You meet alot of athiests who are arrogant in their knowledge. They think it's silly to believe in God and they exude it. I genuinely dont understand why you'd have a complex about something you dont believe in. I've done a tiny bit of research about the people that have been punished (rarely executed; the number I've seen so far is around 10, feel free to dispute) in those liable countries and they honestly just rude. You can believe theres no God and talk about it without being disrespectful. How are you going to be in a STRICT Muslim country and talk trash about their religion ? It's just rude.. I'm not trying to justify it, wrong is wrong is wrong.



You can't tell me 10 people where only the people that were executed for being atheists, 10 people in the last centuries?!

I'm a pro free-speech, people should be able to criticize openly without being threatened. With free-speech we can see flaws in things, we can see how ridiculous some things are, we can see the reaction of the people and develop/advanced.

Why shouldn't I criticize a religion when it affects my daily life? Religions especially the Abrahamic religion think criticizing their religion is wrong but you see them disturbing the public with nonsensical things and they feel right about it. You see some Christians destroying shrines, you see some Muslims blocking road in the name of their religion, you see them arrogantly speaking against other people's beliefs, ways and they want people not to criticize this nuisance?

Religions cannot eat their cake and want to have it too.

There's no how you will talk against God and it won't sound offensive to the believer, religions are public matters just like politics, it affects people's daily lives, I should have right to speak against any practice I don't feel comfortable with or barbaric whether I'm in that religious country or not, why should one be killed for it?

Something happened in Australia where a woman speak against Muhammad and the ECHR prosecuted her because she hurt the feelings of the Muslims and it must be protected, this is a paradox by what ECHR stands for, I understand they are trying to maintain the peace in the country but the woman claim isn't far from truth. So basically if a Muslim said Atheism is foolishness and atheists will burn in hell forever, am I not offended as well, will that be protected?

People shouldn't be prosecuted or killed for free-speech, free-speech is actually freedom, it's the freedom that brought us to today's civilization, if i speak against you(not defaming) and you feel hurt, just walk away and move on, that's what free society is.

3 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 9:33am On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:
I don't believe the religion advocates for the killing of apostates and atheists. I think that's what happens when we take hadith that may or may not be true and we put them over Quran which is definitely 100% true.



Those laws criminalizing atheism and apostasy were created by Islamic scholars and jurists in those Islamic countries. Who are we to believe? Which Islamic school of thought or interpretation is correct?

Yes, while I agree that there is no punishment for apostasy in the Quran, many use the hadith to arrive at the punishment.

All honest muslims should fight for a change within Islam towards atheists and apostasy. No one should be executed for leaving religion
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 9:42am On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:

Lol. The UK is not a Christian country. The UK is a neutral country partially ruled by the church of England. I think the last survey I read put the UK as one of the least religious countries in the world. And when I say religious, I mean religion would have an influence on the people. We all know homosexuality is not allowed in christianity and abortion is not allowed in christianity. I think the most religious period in the UK is just Christmas and Easter time really. Even Rome isn't religious at all. Lol in Rome its obvious Christianity is a form of art and a tool to make money lol.
If you want a muslim country like that maybe Dubai, Bosnia or Malaysia?

When Christianity was really influence in Europe before the reformation, they didnt even kill you. Youd be so frustrated youd kill yourself. We all know about the Inquisition. I'm sure you remember the the famous Galileo who was condemned by the church for simply disagreeing with them. I'm not trying to say this is right. I'm just trying to show you that this was the situation when christianity was in control. Honestly and truly, Religion doesn't have much power in Europe anymore.






European nations were Christian in the earlier centuries. Yes, they have been secularized and are no more Christian, obviously.

However, the UK still has a lot of Christians. Yet, the UK Christians hardly discriminate against atheists.

The point I was making is that Europe is far more tolerant than the Islamic countries when it comes to atheism.

How then do you preach or do dawah to an atheist when he tells you that he doesn't want to die in an Islamic country?

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 10:04am On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:


Okay. I have a genuine question. What's there to talk about in being athiest ? Honestly I have alot of athiest friends. And most of them don't care to talk about God. Ever. I do have a couple that I discuss God with simply for educational purposes. For the most part, I understand they dont believe in God so I am respectful in that and vice versa.
To be completely honest with you, some athiests arent like that. You meet alot of athiests who are arrogant in their knowledge. They think it's silly to believe in God and they exude it. I genuinely dont understand why you'd have a complex about something you dont believe in. I've done a tiny bit of research about the people that have been punished (rarely executed; the number I've seen so far is around 10, feel free to dispute) in those liable countries and they honestly just rude. You can believe theres no God and talk about it without being disrespectful. How are you going to be in a STRICT Muslim country and talk trash about their religion ? It's just rude.. I'm not trying to justify it, wrong is wrong is wrong.





As an atheist, I would be less active if my rights were respected.
It is your muslims and Christians that force us atheists to be activists. When muslims call us satanism, pigs, perverts and deny us basic human rights, what are we to do?

Ignorant people usually see atheists as arrogant. Atheists are no where as arrogant as religious people.

Many muslims here know nothing about science, yet they feel knowledgeable enough to say that evolution is false. Is that not arrogance.


Many muslims who have never practiced another religion or atheism will just come and claim that their religion is the best; the perfect way of life. Is that not arrogance?


As an atheist, I have to read a lot about religion so that I can survive. If you are an atheist in a religious country, you must blend in or be cast out as a satanist or a pervert.


You also claim that very few people have been killed for apostasy or atheism. And also the that the atheists were being rude. False!

Just declaring atheism on social media can get you arrested or killed. Take Alexannder Aan for instance was imprisoned just for making arguments why he doesn't believe in God on an atheist Facebook page. This happened in Indonesia.

Another in Saudi Arabia was arrested and sentenced to death for disagreeing with the prophet on Facebook.

150 people were beheaded last year in Saudi. A lot of people who get arrested for atheism do not make the news. And Saudi are not always open with their numbers.

Also, by arguing and debating here on nairaland, a lot of Christians and muslims get to learn about our plight as atheists.

3 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 10:07am On Jun 28, 2019
tintingz:
This is not the premise the OP presented.

Empiree just wants to derail. I quickly sidelined him.

3 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 11:32am On Jun 28, 2019
tintingz:


You can't tell me 10 people where only the people that were executed for being atheists, 10 people in the last centuries?!

I'm a pro free-speech, people should be able to criticize openly without being threatened. With free-speech we can see flaws in things, we can see how ridiculous some things are, we can see the reaction of the people and develop/advanced.

Why shouldn't I criticize a religion when it affects my daily life? Religions especially the Abrahamic religion think criticizing their religion is wrong but you see them disturbing the public with nonsensical things and they feel right about it. You see some Christians destroying shrines, you see some Muslims blocking road in the name of their religion, you see them arrogantly speaking against other people's beliefs, ways and they want people not to criticize this nuisance?

Religions cannot eat their cake and want to have it too.

There's no how you will talk against God and it won't sound offensive to the believer, religions are public matters just like politics, it affects people's daily lives, I should have right to speak against any practice I don't feel comfortable with or barbaric whether I'm in that religious country or not, why should one be killed for it?

Something happened in Australia where a woman speak against Muhammad and the ECHR prosecuted her because she hurt the feelings of the Muslims and it must be protected, this is a paradox by what ECHR stands for, I understand they are trying to maintain the peace in the country but the woman claim isn't far from truth. So basically if a Muslim said Atheism is foolishness and atheists will burn in hell forever, am I not offended as well, will that be protected?

People shouldn't be prosecuted or killed for free-speech, free-speech is actually freedom, it's the freedom that brought us to today's civilization, if i speak against you(not defaming) and you feel hurt, just walk away and move on, that's what free society is.

Hey! Hi! We have access to the same google giving us both the same source of information. Abi you didnt see where I said feel free to dispute. I googled it and that's what I saw.

I'm pro free speech too. But with free speech comes the consequences of that free speech. If I use my free speech to say something my boss doesnt like I could get fired. If I use my free speech to say racist, homophobic comments there are dire consequences. That's just life. Theres a difference between discussing something freely and insulting it.
Theres good free speech and bad free speech. Both are free, one comes with dire consequences.
Just like how many white people use their free speech to "criticize" about how much black people cause crime and are rapists and are in jail and as a consequence they lose their jobs or scholarships or university admissions.
Actually in the US there are actually lots of laws against athiests, just because they're not implemented doesnt mean they dont exist and one couldn't just bring them up anytime.

Where I live both muslims and Christians are ALWAYS shouting about their religion on the streets. Honestly honestly honestly I have never heard anyone criticise anyone. Honestly speaking. And if they did I'm sure both parties would face the consequences of those words.

Actually there are lots of ways you can talk about God without being offensive. If you were talking to your mum and you had a difference of beliefs. The way you would explain your newly found disbelief to your mum is how you would discuss it respectfully with others. Again I'm not an advocate of killing people based on religious purposes but when Watson lost his Nobel prize for chatting rubbish about black people I was happy about it and I keep that same energy for anyone who insults another person.

I'm guessing you mean Austria, where the Austrain police fined her against blasphemy. Which is against Austrain laws... Upon reading the case. She was fined because she mad malicious intent to interrupt religious peace. She took it up with the European union and they found the same. But athiests arent under any religious law or dont believe in hell. Theres no belief that I'm offending.

Nope! Free speech doesn't work like that at all. The reality is our words have alot of power. You can just see that in Trump's case. Because of Trumps words, the rate of unreported crimes in illegal communities have increased massively. That includes rape and domestic violence. It's a detriment to society and should be punished.

2 Likes

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 11:52am On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:



As an atheist, I would be less active if my rights were respected.
It is your muslims and Christians that force us atheists to be activists. When muslims call us satanism, pigs, perverts and deny us basic human rights, what are we to do?

Ignorant people usually see atheists as arrogant. Atheists are no where as arrogant as religious people.

Many muslims here know nothing about science, yet they feel knowledgeable enough to say that evolution is false. Is that not arrogance.


Many muslims who have never practiced another religion or atheism will just come and claim that their religion is the best; the perfect way of life. Is that not arrogance?


As an atheist, I have to read a lot about religion so that I can survive. If you are an atheist in a religious country, you must blend in or be cast out as a satanist or a pervert.


You also claim that very few people have been killed for apostasy or atheism. And also the that the atheists were being rude. False!

Just declaring atheism on social media can get you arrested or killed. Take Alexannder Aan for instance was imprisoned just for making arguments why he doesn't believe in God on an atheist Facebook page. This happened in Indonesia.

Another in Saudi Arabia was arrested and sentenced to death for disagreeing with the prophet on Facebook.

150 people were beheaded last year in Saudi. A lot of people who get arrested for atheism do not make the news. And Saudi are not always open with their numbers.

Also, by arguing and debating here on nairaland, a lot of Christians and muslims get to learn about our plight as atheists.





Okay. What rights are being disrespected ?
What basic human rights?

Ehm no. That's not true. That's a bit of a silly conclusion. Lol they're not mutually exclusive. Just because a Muslim/Christian is arrogant doesn't mean athiests arent. Actually I thought it was just me but it's common knowledge that active athiests can be very arrogant. I'm sure if you do a quick Google search you'll find some forums that ask the same question.

Lol many people here dont know alot of things including you and I. Someone once told me the people that spend alot of time on nairaland are the lowest of lows in Nigeria grin. But I've met plenty intellectually sound people here and some not to much. It would be quite silly for a non nigerian to open the ... romance section here for example and conclude that all Nigerians are morons.

Hey! Everyone believes their way of life is the best lol if they didnt they wouldn't follow it. I'm sure you feel your way of life is better than many religious ones too.

Really? You must blend? Lol honestly having been to many religious countries, I've never had to blend to anything. Obviously we could have different experiences, please enlighten me.

Neither of them were killed. The first one committed fraud and also insulted the prophet. The authorities didnt get involved until an angry mob of civilians surrounded him causing outrage. See ehn, you're in a muslim country and you're insulting the prophet. It's like me coming to your house and insulting your mum because I didnt agree with what she said/did. The first guy had been asking questions for a long time and it wasn't until he insulted the prophet that people got mad. I'm not an advocate for the persecution but I don't understand why one would do such a silly thing.

The second guy did the same.

Actually Saudi as an advocate of capital punishment and it doenst hide it. If they declared 1million no one will do nothing. Nonetheless the 150 which I also read is for ALL grievous crimes, including rape, kidnap and murder. Which some states in the US also practice and China (who doesnt declare a number ever lol)

I only ever see you in the muslim section though... tongue Did a muslim girl break your heart ?

1 Like

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 12:01pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:



European nations were Christian in the earlier centuries. Yes, they have been secularized and are no more Christian, obviously.

However, the UK still has a lot of Christians. Yet, the UK Christians hardly discriminate against atheists.

The point I was making is that Europe is far more tolerant than the Islamic countries when it comes to atheism.

How then do you preach or do dawah to an atheist when he tells you that he doesn't want to die in an Islamic country?


Which UK has a lot of Christians ? You mean the Christians that only go to church to marry and on Christmas day lol. There are parts of the UK that have more mosques than churches. British people arent very religious to be completely honest. They're a rubbish example.

The UK is far more tolerant because the UK is not a religious country. Insulting the queen used to be a crime in the UK. There are many European countries that will prosecute you for insulting their head of state. And Germany ( I think UK too actually) will still prosecute if you insult or deny the holocaust. I'm just trying to say every country has what's important to them, religion isn't one in Europe.

I dont understand what you mean by the last part.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 12:03pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:


Those laws criminalizing atheism and apostasy were created by Islamic scholars and jurists in those Islamic countries. Who are we to believe? Which Islamic school of thought or interpretation is correct?

Yes, while I agree that there is no punishment for apostasy in the Quran, many use the hadith to arrive at the punishment.

All honest muslims should fight for a change within Islam towards atheists and apostasy. No one should be executed for leaving religion

I agree no one should be executed for leaving he religion. I honestly dont know anyone who has.
Hey! Why don't you advocate for it ?

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by budaatum: 12:17pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:



As an atheist, I would be less active if my rights were respected.
It is your muslims and Christians that force us atheists to be activists. When muslims call us satanism, pigs, perverts and deny us basic human rights, what are we to do?

Ignorant people usually see atheists as arrogant. Atheists are no where as arrogant as religious people.
I wonder if you've told your family and close friends that you are an atheist. If you did, and if they are religious, could you tell us if they don't think you are going to hell, and forced you to be an activist? Did they just accept you were an atheist.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by budaatum: 1:09pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:

The UK is far more tolerant because the UK is not a religious country.
UK is a religious country but practised privately. When Queen Victoria was asked in the 19th century if she believed the communion wine and bread really turns to the body and blood of Christ, she literally told people to mind their own goddamn business and not concern themselves with her private relationship with God. Tony Blair mentioned his faith and was ridiculed for it. With 27 Bishops of the Church of England holding permanent seats in the House of Lords, and the Queen being the Defender of the Faith, one could argue that UK is a Christian country, though other faiths have representation too and the future monarch has said he'd defend Faiths and not just "the faith". Personally, I look at road linings and see scripture. It does indeed say "Thou shalt not", a law that is very religiously obeyed.

UK is learning religious tolerance but not everyone has. Boris Johnson, who is vying to become the next Prime Minister is being called religious intolerant and a racist for calling women wearing the burqa “letter boxes” and “bank robbers”. Corbyn is under pressure to further sanction Chris Williamson MP for Derby North for antisemitism. And both leading parties are being accused of Islamaphobia and Jewishphobia. You've also got Catholic/Protestant, albeit dying off conflicts, in Scotland and Ireland, which is being eradicated through education. And if you asked Jews and Muslims in UK they would tell you they are persecuted, though, not as much as when the entire Jewish community of York was massacred “without any scruple of Christian conscientiousness”.

Ignorance. That's what makes some nations persecute minorities, be they religious minority, sexual minority, race, etc, and education is its solution, but some religions have an aversion to knowledge and education. The Abrahamic religions psychologically impose this ignorance by making people believe that they would die if they learn and the teacher is a deceptive serpent, when the truth is, knowing is what actually extends life. But you try teaching that to people who have been programmed to believe that Methuselah lived an impossible 900+ years!

Therein is the hope. People just need light shone on their ignorance, but the light shiners need to fully understand what they are up against and know how to shine the light. It's a funny odd world though that light shiners tend not to appreciate the light shiners who went before them as a template they can learn from. Thankfully, God uses all to confound fools.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 1:26pm On Jun 28, 2019
budaatum:

I wonder if you've told your family and close friends that you are an atheist. If you did, and if they are religious, could you tell us if they don't think you are going to hell, and forced you to be an activist? Did they just accept you were an atheist.

Interesting question. Only a select few know who I really am.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by budaatum: 1:36pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:


Interesting question. Only a select few know who I really am.
I asked because the persecution you speak of atheists (and homosexuals, for that matter), going through tends to start in the home. Most parents would be distressed if their child claims to be either of the above, and in some cases, would ostracize their kids for it. So, perhaps instead of asking why Muslims mistreat atheists, one should ask why religious parents mistreat their atheist children. It is after all parents who set the religious agendas of societies.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 1:38pm On Jun 28, 2019
budaatum:

UK is a religious country but practised privately. When Queen Victoria was asked in the 19th century if she believed the communion wine and bread really turns to the body and blood of Christ, she literally told people to mind their own goddamn business and not concern themselves with her private relationship with God. Tony Blair mentioned his faith and was ridiculed for it. With 27 Bishops of the Church of England holding permanent seats in the House of Lords, and the Queen being the Defender of the Faith, one could argue that UK is a Christian country, though other faiths have representation too and the future monarch has said he'd defend Faiths and not just "the faith". Personally, I look at road linings and see scripture. It does indeed say "Thou shalt not", a law that is very religiously obeyed.

UK is learning religious tolerance but not everyone has. Boris Johnson, who is vying to become the next Prime Minister is being called religious intolerant and a racist for calling women wearing the burqa “letter boxes” and “bank robbers”. Corbyn is under pressure to further sanction Chris Williamson MP for Derby North for antisemitism. And both leading parties are being accused of Islamaphobia and Jewishphobia. You've also got Catholic/Protestant, albeit dying off conflicts, in Scotland and Ireland, which is being eradicated through education. And if you asked Jews and Muslims in UK they would tell you they are persecuted, though, not as much as when the entire Jewish community of York was massacred “without any scruple of Christian conscientiousness”.

Ignorance. That's what makes some nations persecute minorities, be they religious minority, sexual minority, race, etc, and education is its solution, but some religions have an aversion to knowledge and education. The Abrahamic religions psychologically impose this ignorance by making people believe that they would die if they learn and the teacher is a deceptive serpent, when the truth is, knowing is what actually extends life. But you try teaching that to people who have been programmed to believe that Methuselah lived an impossible 900+ years!

Therein is the hope. People just need light shone on their ignorance, but the light shiners need to fully understand what they are up against and know how to shine the light. It's a funny odd world though that light shiners tend not to appreciate the light shiners who went before them as a template they can learn from. Thankfully, God uses all to confound fools.

I strongly disagree. In theory the UK may seem like a religious country but it is not practised in public or in private.

The Queen has no power in the UK. In theory she COULD have some power but in practice she has no power. The truth is, she doesn't do much. I am aware of the 26 now seats of bishops in the House of Lords. There are almost 800 seats in the House of Lords, 26 bishops dont have much influence. The house of Lords dont have much influence anyways. Laws are made by the House of Commons and the House of Lords theoretically checks it to confirm it's all in accordance with British values and practice.

Nothing is being eradicated by education in terms of the religous conflict between the Catholics and Protestants. It's not a religious conflict as it is a political conflict between two countries that happen to have a difference in religion. The conflict isn't dying believe me. Im not too sure about Scotland but the one between Northern Ireland and Ireland is alive and well and if they dont find an amicable way to deal with brexit itll get alot worse.

I agree with your stance on ignorance. I also think it's the addition of years of conflict and war that has turned the ignorant even when enlightened to intolerant. I think we all just have to be more tolerant of eachother. Not everyone has to agree or live the same way. Just be respectful and let everyone do their thing.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by budaatum: 1:59pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:


I strongly disagree. In theory the UK may seem like a religious country but it is not practised in public or in private.
Depends on what you are measuring with. Christianity in UK has evolved to the point that you do not need to see it on a persons shoulder nor is it a sort that involves "belief" as religion in Nigeria tends to. The scientific revolution cured Europe of that disease.

Religion is simply an ancient form of education that is now found predominantly in nations that have not yet learned the fundamentals of civilisation which is embodied in the commandments. UK has learnt this and advanced past the commandments to "love thy neighbour" and galantly now march toward Logos (Jesus), and Wisdom (God). It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver.

But as is said, those in pits cannot see the view from hills. They look at words used by ancients to explain what those ancients dimly understood and get stuck on meanings those ancient had for those words instead of allowing meaning to evolve into present day meaning.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:28pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:


Okay. What rights are being disrespected ?
What basic human rights?

Ehm no. That's not true. That's a bit of a silly conclusion. Lol they're not mutually exclusive. Just because a Muslim/Christian is arrogant doesn't mean athiests arent. Actually I thought it was just me but it's common knowledge that active athiests can be very arrogant. I'm sure if you do a quick Google search you'll find some forums that ask the same question.

Lol many people here dont know alot of things including you and I. Someone once told me the people that spend alot of time on nairaland are the lowest of lows in Nigeria grin. But I've met plenty intellectually sound people here and some not to much. It would be quite silly for a non nigerian to open the ... romance section here for example and conclude that all Nigerians are morons.


Human rights. I mentioned a story about Bala who was sent to a mental facility just for being an atheist. His Muslim family assumed madness made him disbelieve in God.

Human rights. In Nigeria where your boss will passively aggressively intimidate you to go to his church Thanksgiving.

Human rights where you could be arrested or beaten for drinking alcohol in northern Nigeria.

Human rights where women in certain places face harassment if their dresses are deemed unholy.

Human rights when 14 years imprisonment for being gay or supporting gay rights?

You do know that there are blasphemy laws in the North of Nigeria?

-‐-----------------------------

You are right. Muslims being arrogant is not mutually exclusive with atheists being arrogant. However, that is not my point. .y point is that the arrogant muslims are much worse than th atheists who are arrogant.

It is common for religious people to think that atheists are arrogant. After all, it is natural for one to.be angry if someone comes and logically dismantle their way of life. A study showed that atheists are more versed in religion than religious people.


The simple fact is that the average Nigerian is a m0r0n. Let us be honest. And atheists are more likely to be intelligent than religious people.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:29pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:


I agree no one should be executed for leaving he religion. I honestly dont know anyone who has.
Hey! Why don't you advocate for it ?

I am not a Muslim and so I cannot be a reformer in Islam. It is up to muslims to organize and change their religion?
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 2:34pm On Jun 28, 2019
budaatum:

Depends on what you are measuring with. Christianity in UK has evolved to the point that you do not need to see it on a persons shoulder nor is it a sort that involves "belief" as religion in Nigeria tends to. The scientific revolution cured Europe of that disease.

Religion is simply an ancient form of education that is now found predominantly in nations that have not yet learned the fundamentals of civilisation which is embodied in the commandments. UK has learnt this and advanced past the commandments to "love thy neighbour" and galantly now march toward Logos (Jesus), and Wisdom (God). It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver.

But as is said, those in pits cannot see the view from hills. They look at words used by ancients to explain what those ancients dimly understood and get stuck on meanings those ancient had for those words instead of allowing meaning to evolve into present day meaning.

I dont agree. I think theres a difference between belief and practice of religion. In the context of the OP then practice is what would cause someone to be intolerant to others religion. I guess I meant most Christians in the UK are non practicing. Non practicing in the way that it doesnt affect their day to day at all. In the slightest. It wasnt only scientific revolution that suppressed religion in Europe. It had more to do with discrimination from the Church.

I don't agree. Lol sorry. I think religion is a way of life. A doctrine that dictates ones belief and purpose in life.
Hmm. I'm trying to describe my point to you in the most eloquent manner I can but its hard so I'll say it the best way I know how. Forgive me if it sounds a little simplistic. I agree theres an overlap between overly religious countries and lack of education and poverty. But I dont think correlation indicates causation in this context. Most of europe were still very under practicing religious doctrines when they did the not so religious things they needed to do in order to advance. I dont see any religious doctrines that would really pull a nation backwards if used correctly.
I dont understand what you mean by "It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver." Did the dwindling of churches have anything to do with the proliferation of schools ? The dwindling of churches happened because people stopped going to churches and didn't agree with the practices of the church. The proliferation of schools, which still teach religion in a positive manner, happened because people wanted to be educated. I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Lol. That's a bit rude. Lol are you saying religious people are in pits and athiests are on hills grin grin. Do you mind giving me an example of what words that we religious people have been stuck on ? I'm just curious.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:39pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:




I only ever see you in the muslim section though... tongue Did a muslim girl break your heart ?


I broke a Muslim girl's heart actually. I stopped drinking alcohol but I couldn't just deal with her family. Her foolish brothers were pained that I was not a Muslim. They tried to intimidate me but I gave it to them. grin grin Good times


Another problem with Islam. Muslim women aren't allowed to marry outside the religion.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:47pm On Jun 28, 2019
Saucyxo:



Really? You must blend? Lol honestly having been to many religious countries, I've never had to blend to anything. Obviously we could have different experiences, please enlighten me.

Have you ever worked in Nigeria before?

You sound like a rich babe that travels around Europe.


I was like that too not so long ago. When you work in Nigeria under hard conditions with mental people, your perspective will change.
Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by tartar9(m): 2:53pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:



I broke a Muslim girl's heart actually. I stopped drinking alcohol but I couldn't just deal with her family. Her foolish brothers were pained that I was not a Muslim. They tried to intimidate me but I gave it to them. grin grin Good times


Another problem with Islam. Muslim women aren't allowed to marry outside the religion.
Are xtians or jews supposed to marry outside their faiths at all?

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:56pm On Jun 28, 2019
tartar9:

Are xtians or jews supposed to marry outside their faiths at all?

I am an atheist

Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by Saucyxo: 2:58pm On Jun 28, 2019
JeromeBlack:


Human rights. I mentioned a story about Bala who was sent to a mental facility just for being an atheist. His Muslim family assumed madness made him disbelieve in God.

Human rights. In Nigeria where your boss will passively aggressively intimidate you to go to his church Thanksgiving.

Human rights where you could be arrested or beaten for drinking alcohol in northern Nigeria.

Human rights where women in certain places face harassment if their dresses are deemed unholy.

Human rights when 14 years imprisonment for being gay or supporting gay rights?

You do know that there are blasphemy laws in the North of Nigeria?

-‐-----------------------------

You are right. Muslims being arrogant is not mutually exclusive with atheists being arrogant. However, that is not my point. .y point is that the arrogant muslims are much worse than th atheists who are arrogant.

It is common for religious people to think that atheists are arrogant. After all, it is natural for one to be angry if someone comes and logically dismantle their way of life. A study showed that atheists are more versed in religion than religious people.


The simple fact is that the average Nigerian is a m0r0n. Let us be honest. And atheists are more likely to be intelligent than religious people.




But is that because of Islam or because of Nigerias society. Or the society of people who have lived a certain way and experience something different ?

Jaysus that's everywhere babes lol. I dont smoke but my friends are CONSTANTLYYY trying to get me to smoke something. I'm muslim and I'm constantly getting invited to church. My mums a nurse and shes constantly trying to get me to study nursing. I think that's just people trying to hey you to live their way of life which is even more pronounced in Nigerian society.

I dont agree with this that's ridiculous. Is it against the law in northern Nigeria? Why would you then go against the law ? In Ireland, because of public health, you cant buy or sell alcohol after 10pm and on certain days. If you're caught you'd be arrested and fined. If I decided that, I dont drink much so I didnt contribute to the public health issue so I'm going to buy alcohol at 11pm. I'm still going to get arrested. It's their law.

Nigerians are homophobic lol. Like that's not a surprise at all. Even if there was no religion in nigeria they'd still be homophobic.

I did know that. They dont want you to insult their religion. Dont do it if you stay there.

Noooooooooo I do not agree. From my experience anyways. They arent. I've met arrogant muslims and arrogant athiests. The athiests I've met that are arrogant, it's another level.

Lol here we go. I've actually read studies like that too. And with all the logic athiests love working with, they really dont use much in their day to day life. Like you just said athiests are more versed in religion than religious people. Like Duh. Obviously. Most people that are religious are born into their religion. They see it as their way or life and they just go with it. Thats just normal. Most athiests however reach a point where they question some parts of their religion and eventually go and study and learn in order to educate themselves. Eventually they reach a point where they completely disagree or it doesn't make sense to them and they leave religion. Most of them go through different religions and they all have faults or dont make sense with reality. Obviously youd have to learn about religion before you reach this conclusion. And most religious people don't do that. It's just a way of life for them. I've spoken to many athiests and even though I dabbled in agnosticism and strong irreligious beliefs for a little bit no athiest was EVER able to use any sort of logic to dismantle my belief in God.

I do agree that religious people need to educate themselves more about their faith and their belief in God however. That is the "advantage" atheists use to dismantle small minded people.

Hey! I'm an average Nigerian and I'm not a slowpoke. Speak for yourself tongue
Sigh. I also read that study that athiests are more intelligent than religious people. Please be open minded to read and expand more on that. Its not true. I don't want to write a whole epistle about it.

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Re: Why Is Islam Afraid Of Atheism (and Apostasy)? by JeromeBlack: 2:59pm On Jun 28, 2019
tartar9:

Are xtians or jews supposed to marry outside their faiths at all?

Lol.

I am not afraid of my in-laws murdering my wife if I marry a Christian or jew. Apostasy is a hell of a doctrine.

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