₦airaland Forum

JeromeBlack:
You are not making sense.

ofc, bcuz it doesn't suits you

Sounds like you think you know the British so well and I don't really tend to be in the fashion to argue with believers since they've usually made up their mind what to believe and no amount of evidence can shake their faith. You see the same attitude when 'believers' argue against things like homophobia. It don't matter what evidence is presented, the the 'believer' just got to stoned them.

Time. That's what I gift you. It opens eyes in the end.

Saucyxo:
No faith at all.

That's exactly what the British do. Anything to preserve their idea of superiority.

To be part of Europe and to be part of the EU are different things. I can't you can even cite the time that Henry wanted more money and to marry his mistress so he "reformed" the Catholicism. That's nothing to do with the EU. The British cut ties with the Pope and the roman catholic church so ? The British reformation happend solely because of Henry's personal gain. He didnt care about anything else.
You're right sef. Its history repeating itself. David Cameron wanted something from the EU. They said no. He threatens to leave. They don't care. Now you're in trouble. Except, this time the consequences arent so good.
Because the pound was worth more. The British arent the only ones that dont use the euro.

If the case was that the British people didnt want rule from the EU anymore, then why cant they use their chest and tell the truth. Why lie and give false/incomplete information?

Apart from them being thieves and ruthless people what else is there to learn ?

budaatum:
Sounds like you think you know the British so well and I don't really tend to be in the fashion to argue with believers since they've usually made up their mind what to believe and no amount of evidence can shake their faith. You see the same attitude when 'believers' argue against things like homophobia. It don't matter what evidence is presented, the the 'believer' just got to stoned them.

Time. That's what I gift you. It opens eyes in the end.

You're most kind. I didn't have time before this conversation. I'm ever so grateful.

Have a lovely day! Thank you for the conversation.

Empiree:
ofc, bcuz it doesn't suits you

Read the OP.. I don't know where you saw Israel v palestine

JeromeBlack:
I really want to ask the muslims here why there issue of atheism in islam is so controversial and deadly. If you compare this to the other major Abrahamic faiths, islam is the strictest religion when it comes to atheism and apostasy.

Israel is so secular. There are many non believing and non-practising Jews in Isreal and America. In fact, studies show that about 41 percent of Israeli people are actually openly secular.

In European countries with a christian background, many of the nationals are openly atheists. In the UK, 53% say that they have no religion and about 33% do not believe in God. This is quite similar to many European countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_Kingdom

However, when it comes to countries with sharia law or a significant majority of muslims, we see atheists being quiet and suppressed. Atheism is illegal and liable for execution in 13 islamic countries
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-atheists/atheists-face-death-in-13-countries-global-discrimination-study-idUSBRE9B900G20131210


In Saudi Arabia, atheism is classified as a terrorist act according to the law
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html




The point of this thread is to ask muslims on this section to explain and or justify why atheists are maltreated in such a way in muslim countries.

@usermane here. Sorry for the belated reply.

I think the reasons why Atheists are maltreated in Muslim states boils down to religion.

Apostasy is punishable by death in mainstream Islam. And sure, we rarely ever get news of apostates killed, but the existence of such a penalty for apostasy in the sacred texts cultivate a culture of hate against apostates.

Even if an apostate from Islam don't get executed; he doesn't get to keep his marriage, he doesn't get to inherit from his Muslim kins, he doesn't get to be buried near his dead Muslim relatives, no one will attend his burial, his family may disown him.

There is so much discrimination against ex/non-Muslims under mainstream Islam. To better understand this, it is important to study the status of dhimmi(religious minorities) under sharia according to classical tafsir, hadith & fiqh.

---

But wait, Torah stipulates death for apostasy right? So, why aren't Jews & Christians hostile to apostates?

Simple answer is the enlightenment.

The enlightenment helped Jews & Christians to see the limitation of their faith. They began to discover that absolute reliance on the Bible won't get them far. And so, they were able to unclutch themselves from the shackles of scriptural legalism and literalism.

The thing with the Muslim world is they didn't get the enlightenment. They can't still see the limitation of their faith. Compare to Jews, how many Nobel Prizes have Muslims won? If you ask any Muslim why how they can lead the world once again in science and technology, they'll probably tell you it is by returning closer to Islam. They don't get it.

---

So, why is the Muslim world most hostile to atheism? Religion. And why religion? Lack of enlightenment.

If you follow me on Islam section you can see how much ignorance I have to contend with. People who are not enlightened & never took the time to examine Qur'an verses especially on science, will make bold statements like "Qur'an is a clear book or perfect book". And they will not have second thought about Islamic literalism or legalism.

Of course, there are enlightened Muslims out there denying the limitations and doubts in the Qur'an & Islam either out of dishonesty or delusion. But these are few, the majority of Muslims are just not enlightened enough to examine their faith and scripture.

Hope this helps. If you got more questions, leave it for me. I'll do my best to reply even if not immediately.

Ultramane:
@usermane here. Sorry for the belated reply.

I think the reasons why Atheists are maltreated in Muslim states boils down to religion.

Apostasy is punishable by death in mainstream Islam. And sure, we rarely ever get news of apostates killed, but the existence of such a penalty for apostasy in the sacred texts cultivate a culture of hate against apostates.

Even if an apostate from Islam don't get executed; he doesn't get to keep his marriage, he doesn't get to inherit from his Muslim kins, he doesn't get to be buried near his dead Muslim relatives, no one will attend his burial, his family may disown him.

There is so much discrimination against ex/non-Muslims under mainstream Islam. To better understand this, it is important to study the status of dhimmi(religious minorities) under sharia according to classical tafsir, hadith & fiqh.

But wait, Torah stipulates death for apostasy right? So, why aren't Jews & Christians hostile to apostates?

Simple answer is the enlightenment.

The enlightenment helped Jews & Christians to see the limitation of their faith. They began to discover that absolute reliance on the Bible won't get them far. And so, they were able to unclutch themselves from the shackles of scriptural legalism and literalism.

The thing with the Muslim world is they didn't get the enlightenment. They can't still see the limitation of their faith. Compare to Jews, how many Nobel Prizes have Muslims won? If you ask any Muslim why how they can lead the world once again in science and technology, they'll probably tell you it is by returning closer to Islam. They don't get it.

So, why is the Muslim world most hostile to atheism? Religion. And why religion? Lack of enlightenment.

If you follow me on Islam section you can see how much ignorance I have to contend with. People who are not enlightened & never took the time to examine Qur'an verses especially on science, will make bold statements like "Qur'an is a clear book or perfect book". And they will not have second thought about Islamic literalism or legalism.

Of course, there are enlightened Muslims out there denying the limitations and doubts in the Qur'an & Islam either out of dishonesty or delusion. But these are few, the majority of Muslims are just not enlightened enough to examine their faith and scripture.

Hope this helps. If you got more questions, leave it for me. I'll do my best to reply even if not immediately.

Empiree, are you learning?

JeromeBlack:
Read the OP.. I don't know where you saw Israel v palestine

you think I'm a fool?. You wanted to devote your thread to bashing "Muslims intolerance" to atheists while you ignored atheists inequalities to muslims. How fair is that?. Right there in Nigeria with both Muslims and CHRISTIANS majority, atheism is frown upon needless to say Muslim countries.

And on several occasions I have encountered atheists curse God openly. No one said anything. There are Atheists in Islamic world. How many of them killed?. The only time you hear about persecution of atheists is only coming from bigots who are looking for fame.

Take Canada for example, the country opens her border for asylum seekers especially from Africans. Most of these people always lie about Islam to get approval. I have watched them on YouTube several time where couple who perhaps are not Muslims claimed they escaped from Nigeria because Muslims told them their babies most be married off before @ 1 yr old and that they wanted their children to attend madrasa by force. I was just shaking my head knowing these folks are lying just to obtain asylum.

What they claimed on asylum however are recorded as official labels on Islam. This is what the West knew but they are more enlightened now. They have realized people lie about Islam just to enter Canada. Some of them fake homosexuality and being persecuted by Islam and they "escaped" to Canada. So average Canadians are reading these things and assumed this is what Islam is about. I have never seen any of them claimed persecutions by CHRISTIANITY or other religions. They all lied about Islam. You want to make money in the West, just make up lies about Islam and within a blind you are at the top. That's where usermanee is heading.

JeromeBlack:
Emp.iree, are you learning?

Learning?. That one is not a Muslim. He said jews and CHRISTIANS have realized their reliance on Bible 100% would not get them far. Ofc, what do you expect from those who can not be contented by what God has to offer?.
They will rather be contended with Satan. How do you want Jews and Christians to be satisfied with Bible when they have changed their Book from God's word to their own. People who are not satisfied with God will ever be satisfied?.

Islam does not limit anything that is permissible on worldly matters unless individual choose to limit himself. I will not be corrected by the guy's wrong. He's trying to tell us there are faults or discrimpancies in the Qur'an and he's saying this with confidence. He's convinced there are. This is what happens when you paved way doubt(Q2:2). Therefore, sensible muslims won't take him serious. You on the other hand would believe him because that's what you wanna hear.

budaatum:
UK is a religious country but practised privately. When Queen Victoria was asked in the 19^th century if she believed the communion wine and bread really turns to the body and blood of Christ, she literally told people to mind their own goddamn business and not concern themselves with her private relationship with God. Tony Blair mentioned his faith and was ridiculed for it. With 27 Bishops of the Church of England holding permanent seats in the House of Lords, and the Queen being the Defender of the Faith, one could argue that UK is a Christian country, though other faiths have representation too and the future monarch has said he'd defend Faiths and not just "the faith". Personally, I look at road linings and see scripture. It does indeed say "Thou shalt not", a law that is very religiously obeyed.

UK is learning religious tolerance but not everyone has. Boris Johnson, who is vying to become the next Prime Minister is being called religious intolerant and a racist for calling women wearing the burqa “letter boxes” and “bank robbers”. Corbyn is under pressure to further sanction Chris Williamson MP for Derby North for antisemitism. And both leading parties are being accused of Islamaphobia and Jewishphobia. You've also got Catholic/Protestant, albeit dying off conflicts, in Scotland and Ireland, which is being eradicated through education. And if you asked Jews and Muslims in UK they would tell you they are persecuted, though, not as much as when the entire Jewish community of York was massacred “without any scruple of Christian conscientiousness”.

Ignorance. That's what makes some nations persecute minorities, be they religious minority, sexual minority, race, etc, and education is its solution, but some religions have an aversion to knowledge and education. The Abrahamic religions psychologically impose this ignorance by making people believe that they would die if they learn and the teacher is a deceptive serpent, when the truth is, knowing is what actually extends life. But you try teaching that to people who have been programmed to believe that Methuselah lived an impossible 900+ years!

Therein is the hope. People just need light shone on their ignorance, but the light shiners need to fully understand what they are up against and know how to shine the light. It's a funny odd world though that light shiners tend not to appreciate the light shiners who went before them as a template they can learn from. Thankfully, God uses all to confound fools.

UK is a religious country but govern secularly.

People don't take religion serious in UK, it has been more secularized.

Saucyxo:
I dont agree. I think theres a difference between belief and practice of religion. In the context of the OP then practice is what would cause someone to be intolerant to others religion. I guess I meant most Christians in the UK are non practicing. Non practicing in the way that it doesnt affect their day to day at all. In the slightest. It wasnt only scientific revolution that suppressed religion in Europe. It had more to do with discrimination from the Church.

I don't agree. Lol sorry. I think religion is a way of life. A doctrine that dictates ones belief and purpose in life.
Hmm. I'm trying to describe my point to you in the most eloquent manner I can but its hard so I'll say it the best way I know how. Forgive me if it sounds a little simplistic. I agree theres an overlap between overly religious countries and lack of education and poverty. But I dont think correlation indicates causation in this context. Most of europe were still very under practicing religious doctrines when they did the not so religious things they needed to do in order to advance. I dont see any religious doctrines that would really pull a nation backwards if used correctly.
I dont understand what you mean by "It is the reason that church dwindles and schools proliferate both in number and in the quality of the education that they deliver." Did the dwindling of churches have anything to do with the proliferation of schools ? The dwindling of churches happened because people stopped going to churches and didn't agree with the practices of the church. The proliferation of schools, which still teach religion in a positive manner, happened because people wanted to be educated. I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Lol. That's a bit rude. Lol are you saying religious people are in pits and athiests are on hills . Do you mind giving me an example of what words that we religious people have been stuck on ? I'm just curious.

Christianity in UK is like a culture to them, just like Islam is like a culture in Saudi Arabia.

Even atheists in UK will use "oh my God" and even participate in celebrating Christmas because it's like a culture thing. Richard Dawkins in a debate said he celebrate Christmas because it's something he grew up with and it's fun celebrating with family and friends in that season.

Empiree:
you think I'm a fool?. You wanted to devote your thread to bashing "Muslims intolerance" to atheists while you ignored atheists inequalities to muslims. How fair is that?. Right there in Nigeria with both Muslims and CHRISTIANS majority, atheism is frown upon needless to say Muslim countries.

And on several occasions I have encountered atheists curse God openly. No one said anything. There are Atheists in Islamic world. How many of them killed?. The only time you hear about persecution of atheists is only coming from bigots who are looking for fame.

Take Canada for example, the country opens her border for asylum seekers especially from Africans. Most of these people always lie about Islam to get approval. I have watched them on YouTube several time where couple who perhaps are not Muslims claimed they escaped from Nigeria because Muslims told them their babies most be married off before @ 1 yr old and that they wanted their children to attend madrasa by force. I was just shaking my head knowing these folks are lying just to obtain asylum.

What they claimed on asylum however are recorded as official labels on Islam. This is what the West knew but they are more enlightened now. They have realized people lie about Islam just to enter Canada. Some of them fake homosexuality and being persecuted by Islam and they "escaped" to Canada. So average Canadians are reading these things and assumed this is what Islam is about. I have never seen any of them claimed persecutions by CHRISTIANITY or other religions. They all lied about Islam. You want to make money in the West, just make up lies about Islam and within a blind you are at the top. That's where usermanee is heading.

You have started talking off point again. Israel was established on a biblical basis. The persecution of Palestinians is not an atheist doing. That is the business of religious Jews.

The point of this thread is about atheism and Islam. And Islam has shown that it cannot tolerate atheists and apostates.

There is no smoke without fire. If your Islamic jurists did not sentence people to death for apostasy, adultery and other silly reasons, there wouldn't be fear of Islam for asylum.


Who is more tolerant of gays? Christian's or muslims? Atheists or muslims?

Where are your gay imams?

People will use Islam as an excuse for asylum until the violent parts of the religion are reformed.

Saucyxo:
I dont agree with what Muslim people practice but I don't think its Islam that needs reforming I think it's the people.

The reality is most muslims actually dont believe in apostasy. They'd actually agree with my stance. Imagine if all over 1b muslims started executing everyone. We'd be in trouble.

@bolded. Lol

It's Islam that needs to be reformed not the people, the people are just influenced and following the dogmas in Islam. Islam is the absolute authority here.

E.g Islam said beat your wive, Muslims have justification to beat their wives. So how can you reform the people when Islam still command men to beat their wives?

If you want to reform the people, you change or amend the laws.

tartar9:
In judaism,apostacy is punishable by death! apostacy that was practiced by xtian countries

I think it's something they have abandoned.

Empiree:
And on several occasions I have encountered atheists curse God openly. No one said anything. There are Atheists in Islamic world. How many of them killed?. The only time you hear about persecution of atheists is only coming from bigots who are looking for fame.

See lies. So Saudi, Indonesia and Pakistan allow atheism and apostasy?

You are so ignorant of the discrimination that atheists face from muslims.

tintingz:
@bolded. Lol

It's Islam that needs to be reformed not the people, the people are just influenced and following the dogmas in Islam. Islam is the absolute authority here.

E.g Islam said beat your wive, Muslims have justification to beat their wives. So how can you reform the people when Islam still command men to beat their wives?

If you want to reform the people, you change or amend the laws.

Lol. Which Islam says beat your wives? The God that created me knows no man can beat me. Hahaha thats really funny.

Ya. To reform muslims, they need to change.

budaatum:
I'm not "nigga" and being reasonable does not imply apologetic.

Even in countries you claim practise apostasy and those against blasphemy, apostasy and blasphemy do occur, and In UK that doesn't have laws against blasphemy, you try blaspheming on the streets and see how long you last before being arrested for disturbing the peace.

Sorry

Are you white?

tintingz:
Christianity in UK is like a culture to them, just like Islam is like a culture in Saudi Arabia.

Even atheists in UK will use "oh my God" and even participate in celebrating Christmas because it's like a culture thing. Richard Dawkins in a debate said he celebrate Christmas because it's something he grew up with and it's fun celebrating with family and friends in that season.

I just want to acknowledge that I saw your reply. I'll reply when I can, I'm sorry. I've mentally checked out of this conversation for now. I'm looking for a chill time

Im sorry. I didnt want to be rude and leave you hanging.

Saucyxo:
Lol. Which Islam says beat your wives? The God that created me knows no man can beat me. Hahaha thats really funny.

Do you read your Qur'an?

Ya. To reform muslims, they need to change.

Laws are the absolute authority, if you want people to be reformed, you start with the laws so that they won't have any justifications for the act.

tintingz:
Do you read your Qur'an?



Laws are the absolute authority, if you want people to be reformed, you start with the laws so that they won't have any justifications for the act.

Theres no law in Islam that asks you to kill apostates.

I do read my Quran. I am aware of the verse you're talking about but that's a discussion for another time.

tintingz:
UK is a religious country but govern secularly.

People don't take religion serious in UK, it has been more secularized.

Their secularization has a very heavy undertone of God and religion, as in, love your neighbours and love your God (Logia), as opposed to going to Church. 27 Bishops in the House of Lords are not twiddling their thumbs and here's them worshipping 'God'.

If Nigeria's favorite song had as many God as UK has in its a favourite song as shown below, I feel we'd agree Nigeria is God country and if it were Allah we'd say, Muslim.

1. God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

In fact, reading it through, I doubt one could say UK is as much a secular nation as one might have initially thought except by those who can not comprehend that knowledge of God evolves.

Saucyxo:
I just want to acknowledge that I saw your reply. I'll reply when I can, I'm sorry. I've mentally checked out of this conversation for now. I'm looking for a chill time

Im sorry. I didnt want to be rude and leave you hanging.

Lol. Okay.

Saucyxo:
Theres no law in Islam that asks you to kill apostates.

I do read my Quran. I am aware of the verse you're talking about but that's a discussion for another time.

The Quran made mention of apostates but didn't give specific punishment for it but the Hadith made mention of death sentence for apostasy.

tintingz:
Laws are the absolute authority, if you want people to be reformed, you start with the laws so that they won't have any justifications for the act.

I recall doing this and telling you no one sees laws as absolute authority as you seem to imply. If people did, you'd never see a Christian or Muslim in a Nigerian prison since most imprisonable crimes are divinely forbidden.

tintingz:
Sorry

Are you white?

Lol!
Is "nigga" the opposite of white?

budaatum:
Their secularization has a very heavy undertone of God and religion, as in, love your neighbours and love your God (Logia), as opposed to going to Church. 27 Bishops in the House of Lords are not twiddling their thumbs and here's them worshipping 'God'.

If Nigeria's favorite song had as many God as UK has in its a favourite song as shown below, I feel we'd agree Nigeria is God country and if it were Allah we'd say, Muslim.

1. God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

In fact, reading it through, I doubt one could say UK is as much a secular nation as one might have initially thought except by those who can not comprehend that knowledge of God evolves.

Christianity in UK is like a culture to them, they are more secular than being religious, even their laws is not base on religious laws.

Don't be surprised if UK one day become fully secularized.

budaatum:
I recall doing this and telling you no one sees laws as absolute authority as you seem to imply. If people did, you'd never see a Christian or Muslim in a Nigerian prison since most imprisonable crimes are divinely forbidden.

The absolute authority is an Illusion and not in reality.

Muslims believe Allah laws is the absolute authority, this is an illusion in their imaginations not in reality.

budaatum:
Lol!
Is "nigga" the opposite of white?

I just want to know why you're not a "nigga".

tintingz:
I just want to know why you're not a "nigga".

I'm not most of the things people assume I am, nor is that the sort of language I allow people to use when referring to me except if they are insulting me which I can deal with appropriately.

I don't think JB meant it as an insult though. All the same, people should not be debasing themselves is what I think, especially considering all the complaints of being debased by others. If we have no regard for ourselves, we should not expect others to regard us.

tintingz:
The absolute authority is an Illusion and not in reality.

Muslims believe Allah laws is the absolute authority, this is an illusion in their imaginations not in reality.

Muslims may "believe Allah laws is the absolute authority", but I feel you'd need less than one hand to count Muslims who absolutely obey it.

budaatum:
Muslims may "believe Allah laws is the absolute authority", but I feel you'd need less than one hand to count Muslims who absolutely obey it.

It's a believe system, like I said it's an illusion.

tintingz:
Christianity in UK is like a culture to them, they are more secular than being religious, even their laws is not base on religious laws.

Don't be surprised if UK one day become fully secularized.

If the Christians don't object, which they will starting with those 27 Bishops I mentioned, I assure you that the Muslims, the Jews, the Hindus, the pagans, the vegetarians and the animal lovers will all object. But I admit, "one day".

budaatum:
I'm not most of the things people assume I am, nor is that the sort of language I allow people to use when referring to me except if they are insulting me which I can deal with appropriately.

I don't think JB meant it as an insult though. All the same, people should not be debasing themselves is what I think, especially considering all the complaints of being debased by others. If we have no regard for ourselves, we should not expect others to regard us.

Okay.