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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. (25018 Views)
After Jesus’ Resurrection, Was His Body Flesh Or Spirit? / If A Baby Dies Will He/She Go To Heaven Or Hell? / Where Will Mad People Go To When They Die: Heaven Or Hell? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:18pm On Mar 19, 2020 |
blueAgent:Bible commentary that support your notion that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels! If you can't find any, be humble enough to make a correction |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:21pm On Mar 19, 2020 |
blueAgent:The Saints are acknowledged because they lived by Faith. That's why they are a witness (they've passed through worse than we have and succeeded). A witness is a person/persons who can TESTIFY about events or happenings. Is it possible to have an inanimate witness? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:26pm On Mar 19, 2020 |
blueAgent:I am trying to help you out here. You said the cloud of witnesses were God, Jesus and the Angels. All I need is one PROOF from any commentary. I don't require another epistle, what I require is a supporting evidence. The question again was: Can you please find me a commentary from any source that teaches that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:34pm On Mar 19, 2020 |
blueAgent:Here is what your commentary says are the cloud of witnesses. They are the saints that have lived and died so valiantly by faith in chapter 11. So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have run So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses I guess you can now see from the commentary you posted by yourself of "Who the Cloud of Witnesses Are". The cloud of witnesses is certainly not God, Jesus and the Angels. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 7:36am On Mar 20, 2020 |
@blueAgent The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are Abel Enoch Noah Abraham Isaac Jacob Joseph. But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers! There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience! Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1 So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33 Maximus69: |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 3:32pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: So now you agree that some people will be judged by their conscience? The law has existed right from the creation. If the law did not exist how and why did God judge Adam and Eve? Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. How did this men know right or wrong? Conscience cannot work without a guide that is a law, that expresses what is bad or wrong. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 3:55pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent: MOSAIC LAWS will guide the Israelites to welcome the Christians Jesus sent to preach to them, but if they failed to welcome Jesus' messengers whereas their laws already asked them to be nice to strangers, then God's wrath awaits them! CONSCIENCE will guide people of the nations to welcome Christians, because their conscience will tell them to be kind to strangers, that's when their Judgement begins! None of them can automatically qualify for God's Kingdom until they accept Christianity, the MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE have done it's part once they welcome the Christians, but if they refuse to accept Christianity, then all the works of their MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE become worthless before God who presented his only begotten son a model for all MANKIND! Isaiah 64:6 |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 4:34pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: I do not depend on any useless commentary in order to proof my point. I gave you Bible verses that shows that God, Holy spirit and Jesus are our witness. If that is not sufficient then you forget it. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 4:46pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent:Be humble enough when you're wrong. There isn't a Christian (including myself) wo cannot make doctrinal errors. Till Jesus comes, we are learning. If no one else hold your point of view, you might be on your way to heresy |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 6:03pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: This is blueAgent, not an Orangutan. So it's not compulsory he finds people holding his point of view! Sebi you were against the same line of thought! Now you're suggesting what you've been referring to as "ORANGUTAN" You will know the truth and the truth will set you free~Jesus That's if you welcome the truth with open harms! |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 7:37pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: You really confused. This same commentary you quoted never said the saints are alive watching us, rather it says there faith and deeds are like a witness to us of God's faithfulness. chapter 11. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and all those who suffered and died, “of whom the world was not worthy.” But what does their “witnessing” refer to? Does it refer to their watching us from heaven? Or does it refer their witnessing to us by their lives? The word “witness” can have either meaning: the act of seeing something, or the act of telling something. Which is it here? I think it is the act of telling. The verb form of this word “witness” ( martureo) is used five times in Hebrews 11 (in verses 2, 4 [twice], 5, 39) and always refers to the giving of a (confirming) testimony rather than the mere watching of an event. So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have run the race before us, and have gathered, as it were, along the marathon route to say, through the testimony of their lives, “By faith I finished, you can too!” The best way to illustrate this, I think, is with Hebrews 11:4 , where the writer speaks of Abel and says, “Through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.” So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses, and he is witnessing to us by his life through the Scriptures. This is the way all the witnesses of Hebrews 11 are helping us. They have gathered along the sidelines of our race and they hold out their wounds and their joys and give us the best high-fives we ever got: “Go for it! You can do it. By faith, you can finish. You can lay the weights down and the sins. By faith, by the assurance of better things hoped for, you can do it. I did it. And I know it can be done.Run. Run!” So be encouraged when you plan your fall run with Jesus. There are dozens and hundreds and thousands of those who have gone before and who have finished the race by faith and surround us like a great cloud of witnesses who say: “It can be done! By faith, it can be done.” |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 7:42pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: Sin is defined as breaking God's law. Can you tell me which law is that? 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Since the Devil has been sinning from the beginning and God also told Cain that he has sinned. So which law did the Devil and Cain break. In your place can you charge someone for wrong if there is no set out standard or law expressing what is wrong or not? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 7:44pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: Even Jesus confessed that he has God's law in his heart. Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29 |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 7:46pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: THOSE who are in the habit of reading the Scriptures just as they find them, and of understanding them according to the established rules of interpretation, will never be at a loss to understand so plain a passage as the following: “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” Genesis 2:3 Moses, when referring to it, says to the children of Israel, “This is that which the Lord hath said , to-morrow is the REST of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord.” Exodus 16:23 {SC1 3.1} Then we understand that God established the seventh day Sabbath in Paradise, on the very day when he rested from all his work, and not one week, nor one year, not two thousand five hundred and fourteen years afterwards, as some would have it. Is it not plain that the Sabbath was instituted to commemorate the stupendous work of creation, and designed by God to be celebrated by his worshipers as a weekly Sabbath, in the same manner as the Israelites were commanded to celebrate the Passover, from the very night of their deliverance till the resurrection of Jesus from the dead; or as we, as a nation, annually celebrate our national independence; or as type answers to antitype, so we believe this must run down, to the “keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God” in the immortal state. {SC1 3.2} It is argued by some, that because no mention is made of the Sabbath from its institution in Paradise till the falling of the manna in the wilderness, mentioned in Exodus 16:15 , that it was therefore here instituted for the Jews, but we think there is bible argument sufficient to sustain the reply of Jesus to the Pharisees, “that the Sabbath was made for MAN and not man for the Sabbath.” If it was made for any one exclusively it must have been for Adam, the father of us all, two thousand years before Abraham (who is claimed as the father of the Jews) was born. John says, the old commandment was from the beginning - 1 John 2:7 {SC1 3.3} There is pretty strong inference that the antediluvians measured time by weeks from the account given by Noah, when the waters of the deluge began to subside. He “sent out a dove which soon returned.” Genesis 8:8, 9 At the end of seven days he sent her out again; and at the end of seven days more, he sent her out a third time. Now why this preference for the number seven ? why not five or ten days, or any other number? Can it be supposed that his fixing on upon seven was accidental? How much more natural to conclude that it was in obedience to the authority of God, as expressed in the 2nd chap. of Gen. A similar division of time is incidentally mentioned in Genesis 29:27, 28 fulfill her week and we will give thee this also; and Jacob did so and fulfilled her week .” Now the word week is every where used in Scriptures as we use it; it never means more nor less than seven days (except as symbols of years) and one of them was in all other cases the Sabbath. But now suppose there had been an entire silence on the subject of the Sabbath for this twenty-five hundred years, would that be sufficient evidence that there was none. If so, we have the same evidence that there was no Sabbath from the reign of Joshua till the reign of David, four hundred and six years, as no mention is made of it in the history of that period. But who can be persuaded that Samuel and the pious Judges of Israel did not regard the Sabbath. What does God say of Abraham? that he “obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments , my statutes and my laws. (See what he calls them in Exodus 16:27, 30 ) This, of course, includes the whole. Then Abraham reverenced God’s Sabbath. Once more, there is no mention of the circumcision from the days of Joshua till the days of Jeremiah, a period of more than eight hundred years. Will it be believed that Samuel and David, and all those pious worthies with the whole Jewish nation, neglected that essential seal of the covenant for eight hundred years? It cannot be admitted for a moment. How then can any one suppose from the alleged silence of the sacred history that Adam, Enoch, Noah and Abraham, kept no Sabbath, because the fact was not stated? If we turn to Jeremiah 9:25, 26 , we find that they had not neglected this rite of circumcision, only they had not circumcised their hearts; so that the proof is clear, that silence respecting the keeping any positive command of God, is no evidence that it is not in full force. {SC1 4.1} Again, if the Sabbath was not instituted in Paradise, why did Moses mention it in connection with the creation of the world? Why not reserve this fact for two or three thousand years in his history, until the manna fell in the wilderness, (see Exodus 16:22, 23) and then state that the seventh day Sabbath commenced, as some will have it? I answer, for the very best of reasons, that it did not commence there. Let us examine the text. “And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread as on any preceding day, and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses . And he said unto them this is that which the Lord hath said, to-morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath. bake that which ye will bake, etc.etc.” If this had been the establishing of the holy Sabbath and Moses had said to-morrow shall be the Sabbath, then would it have been clear; but no, he speaks as familiarly about it as we do when we say that to-morrow is the Sabbath, showing conclusively that it was known before, or how could the people have known that they must gather two day’s manna on Friday the sixth day, unless they had had some previous knowledge of the Sabbath? for Moses had already taught them not to “leave any of it until the morning” -v.19 The 20th verse shows that the Sabbath had not yet come since their receiving the manna, because it spoiled and “bred worms by the next morning;” whereas, on the Sabbath morning it was found sweet and edible -24th v. This was the thirtieth day after leaving Egypt (1st v.) and twenty days before it was given on Sinai. The weekly Sabbath then was appointed before this or before the days of Moses. Where was it then? Answer, in the second chapter of Genesis and no where else; and the same week on which the manna fell, the weekly Sabbath was revived among or with God’s chosen people. Grotius tells us “that the memory of the creation’s being performed in seven days, was preserved not only among the Greeks and Italians, but among the Celts and Indians.” Other writers say Assyrians, Egyptians, Arabians, Britons and Germans, all of whom divide their time into weeks. Philo says “the Sabbath is not peculiar to any one people or country, but is common to all the world.” Josephus states “that there is no city either of Greeks or barbarians or any other nation , where the religion of the Sabbath is not known.” But as they, like the great mass of God’s professed people in christendom, paid little or no heed to what God had said about the particular day, (except the Jews, and a few others) they (as we are informed in history) adopted peculiar days to suit themselves, viz: the christian nations chose to obey the Pope of Rome, who changed the seventh day Sabbath to the first day, and call it the holy Sabbath; the Persians selected Monday; the Grecians Tuesday; the Assyrians Wednesday; the Egyptians Thursday; the Turks Friday, and the Jews the seventh day, Saturday, as God had commanded. Three standing miracles a week, for about forty years annually, ought to perpetuate the Sabbath. 1st, double the quantity of manna on the sixth day; 2nd, none on the seventh; 3rd, did not spoil on the seventh day. If it does not matter which day you keep holy to the Lord, then all these nations are right. Now reflect one moment on this, and then open your bible and read the commandment of the God of all these nations! “REMEMBER! (what you have been taught before) the Sabbath day to keep it holy;” (which day is it Lord?) “ The SEVENTH is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou not thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man servant nor thy maid servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger, that is within thy gates.” Who is the stranger? (Gentiles.) Now the reason for it will carry us back again to Paradise. “ For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the SEVENTH; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it .” “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations for a perpetual covenant ; it is a SIGN between me and the children of Israel forever . (Why is it Lord?) “ For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the SEVENTH day he rested and was refreshed .” Exodus 20 and 21 Which day now will you choose? O, says the reader, the seventh if I knew which of the days it was. If you don’t know, why are you so sure that the first day is right? O, because the history of the world has settled that, and this is the most we can know. Very well then, does not the seventh come the day before the eighth? If we have not got the days of the week right now, it is not likely that we ever shall. God does not require of us any more than what we know; by that we shall be judged. Luke 23:55, 56 {SC1 5.1} Once more: think you that the spirit of God ever directed Moses when he was giving the history of the creation of the world, to write that he (God) “blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work,” unless he meant it to be dated from that very day? Why, this is as clear to the unbiased mind as it is that God created man the sixth day. Would it not be the height of absurdity to attempt to prove that God only intended Adam should be created at some future period, or that the creation of the heavens and earth was not in the beginning, but some twenty-five hundred years afterward? All this would be as cogent reasoning as it would be to argue that God did not intend this day of rest should commence until about twenty-five hundred years afterwards. (The word Sabbath signifies rest.) {SC1 7.1} It follows then irresistibly, that the weekly Sabbath was not made for the Jews only, (but as Jesus says, for ‘man’) for the Jews had no existence until more than two thousand years after it was established. President Humphrey in his essays on the Sabbath says, “That he (God) instituted it when he rested from all his work, on the seventh day of the first week, and gave it primarily to our first parents, and through them to all their posterity; that the observance of it was enjoined upon the children of Israel soon after they left Egypt, not in the form of a new enactment, but as an ancient institution which was far from being forgotten, though it had doubtless been greatly neglected under the cruel domination of their heathen masters; that it was reenacted with great pomp and solemnity, and written in stone by the finger of God at Sinai; that the sacred institution then took the form of a statute, with explicit prohibitions and requirements, and has never been repealed or altered since; that it can never expire of itself, because it has no limitation.” {SC1 7.2} In Deuteronomy 7:6-8 , God gives his reasons for selecting the Jews to keep his covenant in preference to any other nation; only seventy at first Deuteronomy 10:22 . God calls it his “Sabbath,” and refers us right back to the creation for proof. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh,” etc. Here then we stand fixed by the immutable law of God, and the word of Jesus, that “the Sabbath was made for man!” Paul says, “there is no respect of persons with God.” Romans 2:11 . Isaiah shows us plainly that the Jew is not the only one to be blessed for keeping the Sabbath. He says “Blessed is the man (are not the Gentiles men) that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it.” “Also the sons of the stranger, (who are these if they are not Gentiles?) every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, (does he mean me? yes, every Gentile in the universe, or else he respects persons) even them will I bring to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; for my house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.” Isaiah 56:2, 6, 7. If this promise is not to the Gentile as well as the Jew, then “ the house of prayer for all people.” is no promise to the Gentile. {SC1 7.3} Now we ask, if God has ever abrogated the law of the Sabbath? If he has it can easily be found. We undertake to say without fear of contradiction, he has not made any such record in the bible; but to the contrary, he calls it a perpetual covenant, a “sign between me and the children of Israel forever,” for the reason that he rested on the seventh day. Exodus 31:16, 17. Says one, has not the ceremonial law been annulled and nailed to the cross? Yes, but what of that? Why then the Sabbath must be abolished, for Paul to say that the seventh day Sabbath was made void or nailed to the cross at the crucifixion, when he never intended any such change; if he did, he certainly would have deceived the inhabitants of Jerusalem, in the promise which he made them about two thousand four hundred and forty-six years ago! Turn now to Jeremiah 17:25 , and tell me if he did not promise the inhabitants of Jerusalem that their city should remain forever if they would hallow the Sabbath day. Now suppose the inhabitants of Jerusalem had entered into this agreement, and entailed it upon their posterity (because you see it could not have been fulfilled unless it had continued from generation to generation,) to keep the Sabbath holy, would not God have been bound to let Jerusalem remain forever? You say yes. Well, then, I ask you to shew how he could have kept that promise inviolate if he intended in less than six hundred and fifty years to change this seventh day Sabbath, and call the first day of the week the Sabbath, or abolish it altogether? I say, therefore, if there has been any change one way or the other in the Sabbath, since that promise, it would be impossible to understand any other promise in the Bible; how much more reasonable to believe God than man. If men will allow themselves to believe the monstrous absurdity that FOREVER, as in this promise, ended at the resurrection, then they can easily believe that the Sabbath was changed from the seventh to the first day of the week. Or if they choose the other extreme, abolished until the people of God should awake to be clothed on with immortality. Hebrews 4:9 . {SC1 8.1} Now does it not appear plain that the Sabbath is from God, and that it is coeval and co-extensive (as is the institution of marriage) with the world. That it is without limitation; that there is not one thus saith the Lord that it ever was or ever will be abolished, in time or eternity. See Exodus 31:16, 17 ; and Isaiah 66:22, 24 ; Hebrews 4:4, 9. But let us return and look at the subject as we have commenced in the light of Paul’s argument to the Romans and Colossians, for here is where all writers on this subject, for the change or the overthrow of the seventh day Sabbath attempt to draw their strong arguments. The second question then, is this: {SC1 |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 7:47pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: Here's SOP comment from "Patriaches and Prophets" on this...I had questions on the laws, moral vs ceremonial, Old vs New Covenant...It really cleared up for me. Chap. 32 - The Law and the Covenants Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God; they were acquainted with its claims upon them; its precepts were written upon their hearts. When man fell by transgression the law was not changed, but a remedial system was established to bring him back to obedience. The promise of a Saviour was given, and sacrificial offerings pointing forward to the death of Christ as the great sin offering were established. But had the law of God never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and no need of a Saviour; consequently there would have been no need of sacrifices. Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5 . To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people. He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs. But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone. If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses. The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark. There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14 . But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17 , 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, "Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments." Nehemiah 9:13 . And Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles," declares, "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12 . This can be no other than the Decalogue; for it is the law that says, "Thou shalt not covet." Verse 7. While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable. Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error. All through the pages of sacred history, where the dealings of God with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of the great I AM. Never has He given to the sons of men more open manifestations of His power and glory than when He alone was acknowledged as Israel's ruler, and gave the law to His people. Here was a scepter swayed by no human hand; and the stately goings forth of Israel's invisible King were unspeakably grand and awful. In all these revelations of the divine presence the glory of God was manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but through all the ages after the Fall and the promise of redemption, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19 . Christ was the foundation and center of the sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since the sin of our first parents there has been no direct communication between God and man. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face. Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness-- the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the law to Israel. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. It was Christ that spoke to His people through the prophets. The apostle Peter, writing to the Christian church, says that the prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:10 , 11. It is the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10 . In His teachings while personally among men Jesus directed the minds of the people to the Old Testament. He said to the Jews, "Ye search the Scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of Me." John 5:39 , R.V. At this time the books of the Old Testament were the only part of the Bible in existence. Again the Son of God declared, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And He added, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:29 , 31. The ceremonial law was given by Christ. Even after it was no longer to be observed, Paul presented it before the Jews in its true position and value, showing its place in the plan of redemption and its relation to the work of Christ; and the great apostle pronounces this law glorious, worthy of its divine Originator. The solemn service of the sanctuary typified the grand truths that were to be revealed through successive generations. The cloud of incense ascending with the prayers of Israel represents His righteousness that alone can make the sinner's prayer acceptable to God; the bleeding victim on the altar of sacrifice testified of a Redeemer to come; and from the holy of holies the visible token of the divine Presence shone forth. Thus through age after age of darkness and apostasy faith was kept alive in the hearts of men until the time came for the advent of the promised Messiah. Jesus was the light of His people--the Light of the world--before He came to earth in the form of humanity. The first gleam of light that pierced the gloom in which sin had wrapped the world, came from Christ. And from Him has come every ray of heaven's brightness that has fallen upon the inhabitants of the earth. In the plan of redemption Christ is the Alpha and the Omega--the First and the Last. Since the Saviour shed His blood for the remission of sins, and ascended to heaven "to appear in the presence of God for us" ( Hebrews 9:24 ), light has been streaming from the cross of Calvary and from the holy places of the sanctuary above. But the clearer light granted us should not cause us to despise that which in earlier times was received through the types pointing to the coming Saviour. The gospel of Christ sheds light upon the Jewish economy and gives significance to the ceremonial law. As new truths are revealed, and that which has been known from the beginning is brought into clearer light, the character and purposes of God are made manifest in His dealings with His chosen people. Every additional ray of light that we receive gives us a clearer understanding of the plan of redemption, which is the working out of the divine will in the salvation of man. We see new beauty and force in the inspired word, and we study its pages with a deeper and more absorbing interest. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 7:57pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent: You need to learn how to read with meditation! Jesus knew his father long before creation, that means everything he noticed his father doing means something to Jesus "this is how daddy wants things to be done" You need not start writing a lengthy epistle for a child who loves watching everything you do, because each step is your law. No wonder God told the Israelites to inculcate his laws in the hearts of their children by THEIR OWN ACTIONS {Deuteronomy 6:7} that's how Jesus knew God's laws NOT by a written code! |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:19pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69:Unlike you, blueAgent isn't proud, boastful nor abusive. blueAgent is cultured and speaks clearly and boldly of what he believes. He is clearly not a slave of his own denomination. And for your information, even though we take opposing stance on the issue in question, he is mature and highly respected. Those who behave like the Orangutan should take note. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 8:29pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: So since he's not a slave of his own religious group, have you now made him your PERSONAL slave? Keep deceiving yourself, he is not a slave of his denomination yet he has maintained his stance on what his church taught him! Kwantinu! |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 8:32pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Can you please break this down to points? I get pieced off by lengthy write-ups! blueAgent: |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:48pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent:All bible commentaries are useless? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:52pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69:He is studying to show himself approved as a workman...who can rightly divide the word of truth. Here on this earth, blueAgent is no one's slave. Does a slave have a mind of his own? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 8:56pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent:The question was: Who are the Cloud of Witnesses? The question, has been answered. Other questions now could be: 1. Who is a witness 2. Is there a difference between Witnesses and Evidences? 3. Can a witness be a Corpse or non living thing? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 8:58pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: Luke 17:10! |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 9:21pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: The question for this study is whether God gave a set of commandments that was new and different from the commandments that God gave to His people before Israel? We know that God had given commandments, statutes, and laws to Abraham according to Genesis 26:5. It is the view of this writer that the commandments, laws, and statutes given to Abraham were the same laws given to Israel and I would like to share a few of the reasons why this is the case. The central concept of Bible issues is the unchangeable nature of God. The Bible says that God does not change (James 1:17). The Bible says that Jesus does not change for He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:. So when God does something He wants it to stand forever. Humanity changes but God does not. God has stated that He is the Truth (John 14:6). The Truth does not change, for it is always the Truth. In Psalms 119:142, 151 God says that His Law is the Truth. The Truth has always been existence for God has always been in existence. The Truth does not go away due to circumstances. When Adam sinned he sinned against the law of God for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4). Therefore the Bible testifies that God’s laws were present in Eden because sin can not occur without violating the laws of God. God, as the Creator, testified that He created the Sabbath at the Creation as the capstone on the creation week (Genesis 2:1-3). Jesus, the Christ (I Corinthians 10:1-4) is the Creator (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:13-18). Jesus, the Creator, stated in Mark 2:27-28 that He created the Sabbath for all mankind, not for Israel only. Jesus, the Author of the Bible (I Peter 1:10-12), continues to point us back to the Creation as the justification of keeping the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 31:12-17; Revelation 14:7). God does not point us to Sinai as the justification of the Sabbath but to the Creation. We know that Abel was righteous (Hebrews 11:4) for he offered a more excellent sacrifice to God and Cain did not. The righteousness of Abel was because he was interested in obeying God and His commandments. In Genesis 3:21 God introduced the sacrificial system which many people believe was introduced at Mt. Sinai. Abel obeyed God’s sacrificial system as well as kept God’s commandments for Abel was a righteous man. In Hebrews 11:5 God says that Enoch “pleased” God because he followed and obeyed God. Enoch was not out of harmony with the will of God and God took him to heaven without seeing death. Enoch was not against the will of God and therefore was a commandment keeper, including the Sabbath. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 9:22pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: Am not loyal to any Church but the word of God. The false trinity doctrine has crept its way into my Church, but I boldly wrote against it. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 9:28pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent: So far it's not written anywhere in the Bible, we will not accept it! What's written in the Bible is that God presented his laws to Moses who in turn presented it to the Israelites. Apart from this there is nowhere in the Bible that says God gave any WRITTEN law before then! |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 9:29pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/witness. Look a the Greek translation of the word written as witness than you will understand that it is not referring to something that is alive and watching. 1 Like |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 9:29pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69:I am in perfect agreement with Lk17:10. Luk 17:10: "So likewise you, when you shall have done all the things commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants, for we have done what we ought to do." |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 9:30pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
shadeyinka:Not all. But anyone that contradicts any part of the Bible Is useless. |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by shadeyinka(m): 9:34pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent:Surely, you must have at least one who teaches that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by blueAgent(m): 9:36pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
Maximus69: So you need to see where it is written? The one Abraham obeyed who gave him? |
Re: What Goes To Heaven Or Hell, Is It Body,soul Or Spirit. by Nobody: 9:37pm On Mar 20, 2020 |
blueAgent: So presently you're churchless! No wonder Shadeyinka is so much interested in your case, he is not as churchless as you're but the doctrines of his church means nothing to him! He said "Church doctrines does not define me" So his ECWA is not that Christian to the level he could strongly hold on to what's been taught there! I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, everything that comes from our own Governing Body means directives from the one who appointed them (Jesus) and not just the one who appointed them but the one who also chose that one(Jehovah) So you're now members of the same congregation, "the congregation of churchless individuals whose beliefs can't be defined by any specific organization! 1 Like |
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