₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
If Paul meant to say "pray the will of God", I believe he would have simply said that.

I asked to be taught what it meant to pray in the Spirit just yesterday, and what came out were the groanings, so I think I will stick with that as the meaning for a bit longer. Jesus didn't say anything about groanings, but He did speak of how the Spirit of God will lead us into all truths.

Given that the Holy Spirit, who we received after Jesus died, is the seal of the Covenant we have in Christ, I think it is safe to assume that Jesus didn't need to groan or pray in the Spirit to show us how it had to be done. The Spirit of God after all is our teacher and our guide through this Christian adventure. He is all capable afterall He is God Himself.

Still the message from Paul to the Ephesians was that they pray in the Spirit at all times.

MuttleyLaff:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41AiRdYKeFL._SX300_.jpg

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant
--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(i.e. It is He also who has made us competent to serve Him in connexion with a new Covenant,
which is not a written code but a Spirit; for the written code inflicts death, but the Spirit gives Life)"
- 2 Corinthians 3:6

"To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom.
But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume.
And who is adequate, for such a task, as this?"
- 2 Corinthians 2:16

Ignorance and arrogance are a lethal combination. Nowhere is this seen more clearly than with this one, who pontificates, huffs and puffs all over the place, largely from knowing enough to think is right, but not enough to know is wrong and know nothing about all that's being discussed

Dont get me wrong, I am just mystified by the idea of how someone by their unrighteousness and bullpiss, goes to great lengths to suppress the truth. Suppressing truth, in favour of engaging in vicious and unrighteous passions. Smh.

MuttleyLaff:
Now some clever clog, the likes of a hoopernikao aka hupernikao, will come to the thread, pontificating, strutting about as if like a constipated peacock, and be saying the intent of the author doesn't matter, that the spirit doesn't matter, its the letter that reigns supreme. That the intent of the author should be overlooked, that consideration shouldn't be given to who is, the audience, the author is addressing or who is his/her write-up targeted at et cetera

AS AN ASIDE: I guess i didnt let you know from beginning my stand on scriptural doctrine and practice. Please note this is my believe in bible explanation. I believe absolutely in the authority of the scriptures, I mean absolutely (100000%).

If you show me anything and i can see it written as such in the bible, that is final and will make correction immediately. But trying to show me what isnt written or want me to go by reading meaning to the authors intent when it isnt documented.

I will rather lay my life down than compromise the scriptures on that. The written word is above all

So? What if Apostle Paul suggesting it, hmm?

1/ How is "pray in the Spirit, at all times" then done?
2/ What is the reason for to "pray in the Spirit," and not just that but to, at all times?
3/ So yeah, why pray, in the Spirit, at all times?
4/ What specifically and/or actually, does "in the Spirit" mean?
5/ Would it be that, one, can pray out the Spirit and/or even pray, out, of the Spirit?

So? What if Apostle Paul suggesting it, hmm?

hoopernikao:
[s]You are so swift to pressing out scriptures that you know nothing about. Don't you read at all.

You really need to start learning how to learn and unlearn. Maybe you can start by removing your hands from the keyboard and start reading more. You have demonstrated here over and over again that you have no single knowledge of even John 3:16 and there is so much to learn and unlearn for you.

Every scripture you provided in all instance here showed you understand nothing about the Bible. When you don't even know what is referred to as letters, but quick to be typing up and down. Isn't that sad.

If you can miss it on this, you can miss it on anything and anyone dependent on your knowledge is in danger of hell. A so called believer that can't differentiate to know that God's words are light to him, the instructions are direction to him will surely call it law. Laziness to study has taking its toll on you.

You need someone to help you by taking your right of access to your uneasy fingers on the internet so that you can start to do more learning and unlearning. That is what can save you.

@Ace\hart, I guess he is your brother, either from this end or the other . Help him by replacing his phone with a physical bible, he needs it more and you will be delivering him from his blasphemy.[/s]

hoopernikao:
[s]Your lies will find you out. When you have nothing to say again, you will surely result to lying and manipulating my words Or is it an ability to read well.

This is what I said. Maybe you should read it 10 more times to understand.
"AS AN ASIDE:
I guess i didnt let you know from beginning my stand on scriptural doctrine and practice. Please note this is my believe in bible explanation. I believe absolutely in the authority of the scriptures, I mean absolutely (100000%).

If you show me anything and i can see it written as such in the bible, that is final and will make correction immediately. But trying to show me what isnt written or want me to go by reading meaning to the authors intent when it isnt documented.

I will rather lay my life down than compromise the scriptures on that. The written word is above all"

Point to where I spoke about not respecting the intent of the author. You don't read at all. If you so, you will know that not less than 4 times in this thread I have mentioned that all interpretation is to reveal the authors intent and stay with it. It will take comprehension issue to believe that authors intent can be known when you don't honor the authors word, usage of words or his letter.

Is it not obvious to you how you have dishonored the scriptures and its author just to drive a point? who between us is not honoring the intent of the author.

Below is written by you to Kobo\junkie

Your language to bible author is very sad.
You need a class on honor serious. It is Paul you mentioned just like that? This is serious.

You should know that giving false witness is unchristian but I won't be surprised as you have even done that to the scriptures by calling it letter of the law.

Did you actually read that before pressing send? I almost want to start seeing you as an unbeliever when I read that.

I hope you will prove otherwise after you start reading patiently and properly. [/s]

MuttleyLaff:
I say, in the age of information, ignorance is a choice

I dont need assistance to cover up nothing. I was impressed someone else is rightly dividing the word of truth and correcting your biased, erroneous or unfair interpretation of Romans 8:26-27, so drop your negative comment(s) already, unless you're jealous, brother connectikut89 is better informed than you are on this subject

The gloves are about comiing off. You asked for it

"When Jesus therefore saw her weeping,
and the Jews also weeping which came with her,
He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,"
- John 11:33

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
- Rom 8:26

Rom 8:26 and John 11:33 for that matter, arent verses that support Jesus spoke in tongues.

John 11:33 is a combination of groaning and display of empathy and not a proof that Jesus spoke in tongues

Rom 8:26, is not speaking in tongue. It is, to some degree similar to John 11:33 above, (e.g. moaning or groaning expression coming from within induced the spirit) and so equally like John 11:33, Rom 8:26 too, doesnt qualify to serve as proof, that Jesus actually spoke in tongue

Moaning or any other sounds made during or in the heat of passion and groaning done to convey pain, despair, pleasure et cetera
or any other sounds made when cornered and backed against a concrete wall isnt speaking in tongues

By the way, though old habit are difficult to die, its close to 14 years now, that I've managed to curtail doing this gibberish or nonsense
and I deliberately said, managed, because it sometimes wants to subconsciously rear its ugly head and slip back in

Mind you, I do groaning in the spirit (i.e. that's where & when applicable) but dont anymore do gibberish. Aside the different kinds of groaning out of pain, out of despair, out of pleasure etcetera, there is a distinction) between groaning in the spirit and talking gibberish (i.e. particularly in regards to when praying

Jesus groaned in the spirit (i.e. John 11:33 and John 11:38) but it wasn't the sort of gibberish thing we have and see in modern believers settings or gatherings

As said, I, too, when praying intensely do experience groaning in the spirit
- it usually is making deep inarticulate sound(s) or grunts during praying, out of pain, anguish, desperation or some strong emotion

I strongly want to believe, its similar to, if not on par with that, Hannah style of praying (i.e. 1 Samuel 1:10)

Pray, you aren't cornered that bad, that you need to resort to groaning when praying. It's out of exasperation, that groaning comes out. Jesus, out of exasperation too, groaned, at sight of Lazarus dead/sleeping

I can go more, on praying in the spirit and praying with the spirit, but will pause, so as not to, cause information overload

Again, the three recorded evidences of speaking in tongues in the bible, occurred for a purpose and/or to serve that purpose, and each instance of the three recorded speaking in tongues happened with articulated utterances, that were, coherent enough to other present audiences admitting and understanding the spoken tongues. For the three occurrences in the Bible , refer to Acts 2:8, Acts 10:46 and Acts 19:60

"For Jews demand miraculous signs (i.e. ask for signs)
and Greeks ask for wisdom (i.e. philiosophy)"
- 1 Corinthians 1:22

"So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers.
Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers."
- 1 Corinthians 14:22

For all the 3 recorded times, speaking in other tongues occurred in the bible,
it is visibly noted that, it happened each time, for the benefit of unbelieving Jews

For any that might have been misinformed, it is a well documented truth, as seen in 1 Corinthians 14:22 above
that speaking in tongues is not for believers, rather it is used as a sign for unbelievers (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:22a)

Petra\1, the primary purpose for speaking in tongues, was/is not for use as a talisman, neither to be used as quicker or easier mystical shortcuts to prayers or worship. Nor is it's purpose, to be used as a form of means to confuse the devil or demons from understanding whats been prayed

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
- Jude 1:20

Jude 1:20 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues but means what it says out of the tin
(i.e. it means literally pray in the Holy Spirit, as in like one of those ''thy will be done'' prayers)

Kobojunkie:
If Paul meant to say "pray the will of God", I believe he would have simply said that.

Kobojunkie:
I asked to be taught what it meant to pray in the Spirit just yesterday, and what came out were the groanings, so I think I will stick with that as the meaning for a bit longer. Jesus didn't say anything about groanings, but He did speak of how the Spirit of God will lead us into all truths.

Kobojunkie:
Given that the Holy Spirit, who we received after Jesus died, is the seal of the Covenant we have in Christ, I think it is safe to assume that Jesus didn't need to groan or pray in the Spirit to show us how it had to be done.

Kobojunkie:
The Spirit of God after all is our teacher and our guide through this Christian adventure. He is all capable afterall He is God Himself.

Still the message from Paul to the Ephesians was that they pray in the Spirit at all times.

hoopernikao:
.........USAGE OF KAINOS IN SEPTUAGINT.............

I will try to still help in giving you extended study to OT.

The Septuagint (Greek translation of Hebrews scriptures) used kainos 53 times in OT. As least the Septuagint is one of the oldest if not the oldest translation into Greek you can have, It existed even before the birth of Jesus and read by the Apostles. Let me show you how it used kainos in the OT

Acehart:
Acts 12:21-23
On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Earlier, we saw some synonyms of the word “Language”. They include: speech, dialect, jargon, terminology, lingo, vernacular, word, style, and sound. Other synonyms include: Command of language, accent, voice, vocabulary, word, sound, mother-tongue, sound, expression, terminology, lingo, idiom, style, enunciation, manner of speech etc.

In the text above, King Herod gave an address to a people in their language (mother-tongue or lingo); and the people who heard his address yelled: “The voice of a god and not of a man!”

Did he really have a voice like a god? The Greek word for the English word “voice” is “phōnḗ”, from which we have the English word “phonetics”. In the Greek, phōnḗ means “the speech of a tongue or language”. It also expresses the way a speech’ language is enunciated.

Herod’s language style, expression, articulation, command of the mother tongue, and manner of speech elicited such a response - “The voice of a god”. Let’s not forget the Assyrian stammering (mockery).

The following are synonyms of mockery: ridicule, derision, jeering, contempt and scorn, to name a few. “Ridicule” means: the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour. (Oxford dictionary). The English translation for “mockery” is indeed the same as the Hebrew translation for “stammering”. The Assyrian’s manner of speech, expression, enunciation, and command of Judean lingo were the focus and intention of first part of the prophecy of Isaiah; so it is the intention of Luke in expressing this event.

However, this isn’t my focus; my focus is the cause of Herod’s death: ‘he did not give God the glory’; he didn’t give GLORY, doxa, to God. This word then drives me to a part of Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians - 2 Corinthians 3.

---

---

---

In 2 Corinthians 3, we see perhaps the only passage of the scriptures where the words “language” (glôssa) and “new” (Kainos or καινός) kiss each other. It is the only passage in the scriptures that contrasts extensively the difference between the “new” (Kainos or καινός) with respect to “old” (palaios). Please let’s juxtapose the characteristics of the new (Kainos) testament (Diathíki) and the old (palaios) testament (Diathíki) with the hope that its applicability is universal throughout the scriptures where Kainos and palaios are mentioned with regards to the gospel of Christ:

1. The Kainos Diathíki produces life. (v.6)
2. The Palaios Diathíki kills (v.6).
3. The Palaios Diathíki had brightness and splendor but it’s brightness dulls and its splendor is fading. (v.7)
4. Kainos Diathíki’s brightness and splendor is excellent and abides forever. (v.7-8,11).
5. The Palaios Diathíki is limited and therefore terminated (v.9,11).
6. The Kainos Diathíki is abundant and abides.
7. The Palaios Diathíki is hopeless (v.12).
8. The Kainos Diathíki gives one hope (v.12).
9. The Palaios Diathíki hinders one from the knowledge of God and hence, makes one’s heart grow hard. (v.14).
10. The Kainos Diathíki makes one fruitful in the knowledge of God (v.18).
11. The Palaios Diathíki condemns all men and has the opinion that all men as worthless. (v.7-9).
12. The Kainos Diathíki gives all men a sense of worth and it dignifies one; and it clothes one with splendor or righteousness. (v.7-11).
13. The Palaios Diathíki dulls one’s mind. (v.15)
14. The Kainos Diathíki transforms one progressively into the image of God’s glory, Christ. (v.18).
15. In the Palaios Diathíki, there is bondage (v.17).
16. In the Kainos Diathíki, there is freedom. (v.17)
17. In the Palaios Diathíki, people focused on Moses (v.7, 13-15).
18. In the Kainos Diathíki, men will look to Christ (v.14,18)
Because of the qualities of the Kainos Diathíki, Paul says his language (manner of speech) is with plainness of speech (language) or fearless confidence. Therefore, the new tongue of Mark 16:17 is a manner of speech (doxa), boldness, which the Apostles will turn people’s faces away from Moses and sets them on Christ and His glory. How fitting is the language for a bunch of fearful men who went into hiding when the Master was captured and crucified?

they began to speak the word of God with boldness (Acts 4:31)
cc: Kobojunkie, Muttleylaff, Finallydead, Toyorlee1, Nebes, Maximus69, Eulalia, Vickydankal, Goshen360, PharmaGirl

MuttleyLaff:
The manner of speech, the boldness (i.e. the parresia) of like in Acts 4:13, is what is the new development, the method, the new delivery et cetera in Mark 16:17, that makes the speaking in tongues "kainos" as opposed to be regular, business as usual, ordinary, lacking unusual or special aspects about it "neos".

The speech style or mode of delivery, is the verb, the action done, the activity, that separates the men from the boys. The difference between "neos" and "kainos" is the verb. It is the added factor, the improved upon. It is the improvement, the development. It is, what's been done. It is, how is it done.

Acehart, you have your choice of words mixed up. You meant to type "parresia", but you put in "doxa". Complete different thing and meaning altogether, lmao

Acehart:
In 2 Corinthians 3, we see perhaps the only passage of the scriptures where the words “language” (glôssa) and “new” (Kainos or καινός) kiss each other. It is the only passage in the scriptures that contrasts extensively the difference between the “new” (Kainos or καινός) with respect to “old” (palaios). Please let’s juxtapose the characteristics of the new (Kainos) testament (Diathíki) and the old (palaios) testament (Diathíki) with the hope that its applicability is universal throughout the scriptures where Kainos and palaios are mentioned with regards to the gospel of Christ:

1. The Kainos Diathíki produces life. (v.6)
2. The Palaios Diathíki kills (v.6).
3. The Palaios Diathíki had brightness and splendor but it’s brightness dulls and its splendor is fading. (v.7)
4. Kainos Diathíki’s brightness and splendor is excellent and abides forever. (v.7-8,11).
5. The Palaios Diathíki is limited and therefore terminated (v.9,11).
6. The Kainos Diathíki is abundant and abides.
7. The Palaios Diathíki is hopeless (v.12).

Because of the qualities or merits of the Kainos Diathíki, Paul says his language (manner of speech) is with plainness of speech (language) or fearless confidence (v.12).
they began to speak the word of God with boldness (Acts 4:31)

Cc: Kobojunkie, Muttleylaff, Finallydead, Toyorlee1, Nebes, Maximus69, Eulalia, Vickydankal, Goshen360, PharmaGirl

1. The [i]Kainos Diathíki produces life. (v.6) LIFE IS CHRIST IN KAINOS (no one has it before him)
4. Kainos Diathíki’s brightness and splendor is excellent and abides forever. (v.7-8,11) ETERNAL LIFE TO MAN (No one had it, it is new, KAINOS)
6. The Kainos Diathíki is abundant and abides. (SAME HERE, Abundant life never existed before Christ, it is KAINOS not NEOS)
8. The Kainos Diathíki gives one hope (v.12). (THIS HOPE IS IN CHRIST, Not anyone, It is a NEW LIFE, KAINOS)
10. The Kainos Diathíki makes one fruitful in the knowledge of God (v.18). (This is KAINOS, the knowing of God is revealed in Christ)
12. The Kainos Diathíki gives all men a sense of worth and it dignifies one; and it clothes one with splendor or righteousness. (v.7-11). Same here, never happened before, it is in Christ.
14. The Kainos Diathíki transforms one progressively into the image of God’s glory, Christ. (v.18). Same as this. In Christ, New, not in the Old.
16. In the Kainos Diathíki, there is freedom. (v.17) Same as this. In Christ, New, not in the Old.
18. In the Kainos Diathíki, men will look to Christ (v.14,18) Same as this. In Christ, New, not in the Old. [/i]

hoopernikao:
Bros, Habaa.

Your representation is firstly, neglecting the true meaning of KAINOS, and implying your own different meaning.

Acehart:
Thank you sir. My last response was my swan song.

Etifinity:
please how do u pray in the holy ghost?

hoopernikao:
And this, on key note.

@Acehart @Goshen360.

I may (likely) have to discontinue responding due to the way the thread is heading as it seems some external factors arent culture enough to separate biblical arguments from emotions. Such persons are not giving symbiotic life and order to this thread and its tending towards another line. In all, i believe that whatsoever, this thread is a godly and educative thread irrespective of the arguments and disagreements...

And my wish is for us to land our discussion in 1 Cor 14 at the least as that is very key to bring all these together. I truly hope we can reach such before they pull the roof down.

Goshen360:
No, I'm saying I understand your perspective and interpretation in the light of the words usage in question and hence, you threw more light on the word usage.

So questions further asked above for you to now put those explanations in perspective to what I further asked. I get your understanding of neos and kainos now though.

You know I'm in a learning mood and just a student learning in this thread/discussion.

Goshen360:
Well, I think we've been having a mature and healthy conversation so far and you yourself will have to slow down on slightly loosed hard words used to MuttleyLaff so we can finish up in good faith.

Let's continue to your outlines and rebuttal from others. Also, I need you to finish up on that Acts 2 - Another/Other Tongues because I got some questions for you depending on your explanation on what actually happened in Acts 2....I'm "assuming" you have a different interpretation of what happened but I'll let you explain first before I conclude if my assumption is right or wrong.

Acehart:
Acts 12:21-23

On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Earlier, we saw some synonyms of the word “Language”. They include: speech, dialect, jargon, terminology, lingo, vernacular, word, style, and sound. Other synonyms include: Command of language, accent, voice, vocabulary, word, sound, mother-tongue, sound, expression, terminology, lingo, idiom, style, enunciation, manner of speech etc.

In the text above, King Herod gave an address to a people in their language (mother-tongue or lingo); and the people who heard his address yelled: “The voice of a god and not of a man!”

Did he really have a voice like that of a god? The Greek word for the English word “voice” is “phōnḗ”, from which we have the English word “phonetics”. In the Greek, phōnḗ means “the speech of a tongue or language”. It also expresses the way a speech’ language is enunciated.

Herod’s language style, expression, articulation, command of the mother tongue, and manner if speech elicited such a response....



Cc: Kobojunkie, Muttleylaff, Finallydead, Toyorlee1, Nebes, Maximus69, Eulalia, Vickydankal, Goshen360, PharmaGirl

MuttleyLaff:
Oh. Well. Thank you ... Uh, thank you very much then.

Acts Chapter 2 is segmented into 47 verses, please be specific, what verses your query centres round and what exactly in Acts Chapter 2 is your area(s) of interest. Thanks.

Finallydead:
Greetings Acehart,
Thanks again for the mention and nice display of transparency and character back there. Tbt is I'm in agreement with hoopernikao's understanding of kainos and neos. In fact, he has handled that aspect quite well. It's just the plain truth that any greek scholar will tell about those two words. Anyone who is in disagreement either needs to do further study with greek lexicons or is just in plain denial.
I also agree with his understanding of "laeg" in Is28:11 and that was exactly Paul's point in 1Cor14:21-22
The problem however is we've spent too much on that and are yet to get into the meat of tongues. If you guys won't agree on that. Then maybe y'all could move on.

Hey hoopernikao, if your wish is actually to get to 1Cor14, you could just do so already. You don't have to get everyone to agree to make your point nor to get distracted your reputation.
A good teacher must be able to maintain focus on his points and not be derailed by all that.
Hey Mutt, it seems you're combining two different spiritual experiences into one.
I can totally relate to your experience and you're right to say that such groaning is praying in the Holy Spirit i.e. the Holy Spirit groaning/sighing through you WITHOUT words as per Rom8:26, a quite unpleasant experience that releases probably the greatest spiritual power though.

Finallydead:
But praying in tongues is another kind of praying- your human spirit(NOT Holy Spirit) praying with vocalised, distinct angelic words.(1Cor14:14) A very refreshing experience on the contrary.
I already touched on speaking in tongues in my initial post.

MuttleyLaff:
You have misunderstood my praying in the Holy Spirit, with the Spirit interceding on my behalf with groaning and sighing. Fyi, it was not an unpleasant experience for, rather it was the circumstances that brought me to a rock bottom heart wrenching place, that was unpleasant. This is why I mentioned that I wouldn't wish such conditions on my enemies. I have God to fall back on to, I have the Holy Spirit to step in for you. Imagine, a non believer, you who hasn't got my divine/spiritual back up, his/her case will be like a chihuahua got lost in an African thick forested jungle. Wont last 5 minutes. I vividly remember, now looking back at those times, that I felt relieved, the moment I started doing the actually groaning and sighing. I was already suffering from prayer exhaustion, so when the groaning and sighing kicked, wow, it was a relief and a good feeling. Immediately, I remembered the instances of Jesus too doing same, so that gave me comfort, it made a lot happy and relieved, then soon after I picked myself up and just moved on from there. It's tough one how to describe the groaning and/or sighing pray in the spirit. I am tempted to say its a love-hate relationship, but if tbt, force to commit myself, then, I'll probably say, it's more of a love relationship because I pleased to know such thing like that is handy or near for me to use as per when needed to.

If I pray in Yoruba/Igbo/Hausa/Greek/Hebrew/pidgin, am I not praying with my mind, with my spirit (i.e. spirit man) aligned and/or in tuned with Holy Spirit ni, hmm?

C'mon now Finallydead, stop being mischievous here with this attempt of misunderstanding exactly what is going on 1 Corinthians 14:14.
Are you, peradventure, reading 1 Corinthians 14:14 in isolation and so there unwittingly interpreting the intent out of context, erhn?

Goshen360:
As regards this tongues topic....whatever anyone is pulling out from Acts 2 is welcomed. Readers and learners will definitely study with you guys

Goshen360:
Btw, you didn't answer the kweshun at the beginning of page 6 to you though. Maybe I missed your response or you missed to respond.

Goshen360:
^ ^ ^
Now understood and will put that into perspective as the discussion continues while we wait for hoopernikao to comment and hopefully we can move on in the discussion. I have more question(s) though that I will ask from scripture and let you put your explanation above into the scripture.

However, let me ask again another question that readily comes to mind so I dont forget and I'll relax a little again so the discussion can continue. How do you put your above explanation into the light of these scriptures 2 cor. 5v17 and Heb 8v8-9 ?

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

.....or better still,

.....a new covenant/testament....Heb 8v8-9

Keeping in mind, our new life in Christ is not an upgrade or improvement to our old Adamic life neither is the new covenant an upgrade or compliment or improvement to the old covenant/agreement/testament or are you saying our new life is upgraded or improvement to the old life, new covenant/agreement/testament is an upgraded or improved old covenant/agreement/testament?

Finallydead:
Oh I very well can relate. Trust me. The discomfort I speak of is in the moment of exertion from your inside where the groans rise from after which there would be great joy and relief. A certain note of victory

Finallydead:
No iota of mischief here, Mutt. These are holy, spiritual things, we can't get loose with them. It's exactly what I said. When you pray in an angelic tongue, it is your spirit man himself praying, anointed by the Holy Spirit definitely, but your spirit is the actor here while your mind/reasoning is at a loss on what is being said. This is no mere human language either.

Finallydead:
But when a groan rises from your bowels, it is the Spirit Himself from within your human spirit expressing His own intercession. That makes this groaning the highest intensity of prayer although both will be rightly termed praying in the spirit.

Finallydead:
There are even more dimensions of praying in the spirit like prayer burdens etc. but each is unique.
We'll just have to stay on course and avoid them. For this thread, we focus on tongues.

MuttleyLaff:
I probably did, but please re-post the question here. Scratch that because I quickly went to page 6 to check

Seems, its about 2 Corinthians 5:17 (i.e. new creation) and Hebrews 8:8 (i.e. new covenant)

Goshen360, please tell according to your understanding:
1/ What is the difference between "neos" and "[I]kainos,[/i]" the two different Greek words used for the English word "new"
2/ Please compare and contrast "neos" and "kainos"
3/ What does 2 Corinthians 5:17b say?. Please print it here
4/ Please explain if "neos" is used for a new baby, why isn't it used for instances in 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Hebrews 8:8
5/ Please tell, if not, there is change in the quality of the new creationhood of 2 Corinthians 5:17 and the new covenant/agreement/testament of Hebrews 8:8

Goshen360, new babies are born just like any other regular babies are naturally born, without no added quality nah, lmao, hence why "neos" is used for them, as opposed to "kainos" These are all in Greek, when when switch to Hebrew, its a whole different ball game, which I already have detailing explained before, with examples and whatnot

Goshen360:
Brother, permit me to hold my piece because I said from beginning I'm in a learning mood in this thread....my energy will come later...you sabi me tay tay...I'm studying with you guys now. E fe fi kweshun pa mi ni?

hupernikao:
PART 2: Mark 16:17 New Tongues

For Part 1 check link below
https://www.nairaland.com/5860057/should-speak-tongues-right#89591415

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Dont forget where we started from, and as i said we will need to examine each places in the scriptures that pointed to tongue.

I mentioned that every where tongue is used it is mostly qualified and this is not accidental, hence we must not over look that in our explanation. Having looked at stammering. I will now consider Jesus' commentary on tongues.

Mark 16:17, JESUS COMMENTARY ON TONGUES
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

It is not surprising that Jesus is the first person in NT to comment about tongues. Let us pay attention to him words. he called it NEW TONGUES.
The word used here for new is translated from the Greek word kainos. I will give you places it was used and what it means.

KAINOS
new, recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn, of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of.

Note that when ever kainos is used it always point to something totally knew with respect to what it qualifies.

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins..

New testament. New relative to the testament. It means the testament was never used before, a new kind, unworn, unheard.

Whenever kainos is used it points to something absolutely new. Paul in 2 Cor 5:17 used new creation

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

New creature, will refer to a creature that is different from the existing creature. That is a new one from what used to be. New creature will not be localized but meaning "this is different from all forms of existing creature".

You can take time to check every other usage of Kainos .

Now to our discussion. Note that there are several word available for Jesus to used if he want to refer to a foreign language, that is an existing one.

The one foreign never occurred in Hebrew/Greek lexicon but its relative exist that is the word "STRANGE". There are 3 words used as strange in NT but Jesus never used any of this to describe tongues.

Strange: allotrios
foreign, strange, not of one's own family, alien, an enemy.

This should be the closest word Jesus would have used if he is referring to a foreign tongue. It means something alien or not part of your tribe.

Acts 7:6
And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

Strange land will not mean a new (kainos) land as the land exist before. Strange there will mean unfamiliar.

Strange: xenos
a guest or (vice-versa) entertainer:—host, strange(-r). This is very clear. It is refering to a person.

3Jo 1:5
Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;

Strange: xenizō
to receive as a guest, to entertain, hospitably

The closest in all these 3 to what Jesus is saying is allotrios, foreign, strange, not of one's own family, alien, an enemy. Buthe never used that. Jesus used a very strong term. kainos.

That means the tongue that has no prior usage, existence or tribe. If Jesus wants to refer to a foreigner's tongue he would use strange (allotrios).

Observe Jesus' use of Kainos in his teachings

Mat 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mar 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

new here mean the testament never exist before now.

Mar 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Jhn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Commandment that was never in existence before.

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Paul Commentary?

2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The testament has no past.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

No past of such creature. New with respect to the existing creature.


Hebrews?

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The covenant has no past or existing record.

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Revelation

Rev 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The name has no past record, not bore before by anyone.

We can go on and on. Now to Mark 16:17

When Jesus used kainos, it implies, what has no existence and like i said that is not localized, it must be same everywhere you go, Believers are to be raised from all nations, when they read kainos glossa, they must see it as a tongue that has no previous existence in human race. It cannot be kainos when it is used in China or Nigeria, or UK, that will be allotrios a stranger, foreigner's tongue.

Hence, we must not loose this facts in our interpretation of the doctrine of tongues. New testament, is relative to the old testament, new covenant is relative to the old covenant, new creature (man in Christ) is relative to the old creature (Adamic), hence New tongue is relative to the human tongues, a new tongue/language as relative to existing or human language. It is not a tongue of a tribe or a human nation but the people of God.

Myer:
You know how to beat around the bush.

The bone of contention here is simple.

The tongues we are exposed to nowadays, are not foreign languages but gibberish.

Pastors have found away to capitalise of the "unknown tongues" and indoctrinated believers to speak gibberish in the name of speaking in tongues.

Are you aware that some churches actually teach their members how to speak in tongues?

Please, show me where it was written in the bi le that the gift of speaking in tongues was taught?

Let's not kid ourselves, speaking in tongues might actually be real just like working of miracles might have been real but what we have today is a product of indoctrination and perversion.

We can say the bible speaks of 2 types of tongues;

Known- for evangelism to unbelievers.
Unknown tongues- for personal edification and edification of the church (believers)

Honestly, can you state categorically that you have spoken in another language (tongue) to evangelise to an unbeliever?

Maximus69:
OK! So you now want to reason with these Churchgoers after arguing that they're better Christians than Jehovah's Witnesses!

Well we are still speaking in tongues till today, because it's the purpose that matters not some useless spectacular display of shame!

Meanwhile the Qur'an never encouraged speaking in tongues, instead the adherents must speak the language of the so called prophet to be acceptable to their God!

See below chat to know how Jehovah's Witnesses (the one and only TRUE Christian Organization) have been speaking in tongues!

Myer:
Your case is different.
The bible didn't say the disciples went to learn the foreign languages they spoke.
Your articles were written in different languagrs by those who speak those languages.

There is no power in your JW organisation. And the gospel is unfortunately only believable when it is backed by the power of God through the Holyspirit.

Like I told you b4, JW is vast in the knowledge of the letter of the scriptures but lacking in the Spirit.
You don't even believe in miracles anymore so you would have crucified Jesus just as the Jews saying he was healing through Belzebub.

Myer:
Your case is different.
The bible didn't say the disciples went to learn the foreign languages they spoke.
Your articles were written in different languagrs by those who speak those languages.

There is no power in your JW organisation. And the gospel is unfortunately only believable when it is backed by the power of God through the Holyspirit.

Like I told you b4, JW is vast in the knowledge of the letter of the scriptures but lacking in the Spirit.
You don't even believe in miracles anymore so you would have crucified Jesus just as the Jews saying he was healing through Belzebub.

Acehart:
Nice point.

Good morning

Maximus69:
Nice point!

I hope you find a group that's better than Jehovah's Witnesses in speaking in tongues with a useful purpose! Matthew 7:16-18

TATIME:
They're seeing a self acclaimed tailor going for city to city making perfect outfits for people everywhere he goes, but they're saying

he has no sewing machine

Yet they're now giving themselves headache over thousands of people carrying what seems like sewing machines but can't sew anything worth presenting?

Please bro these people are just blasphemers, unknowingly to them Satan recruited them to mock God's work! 2Corinthians 4:4

I wonder what exactly they're expecting to get as a result after God's spirit permitted people to speak in tongues!

Jesus described them in a perfect way!
Matthew 13:13-15
They will always find excuses to refute the fine works of God's holy Spirit! Luke 7:31-35