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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall (2919 Views)
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Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by sonmvayina(m): 11:07pm On Jul 06, 2020 |
budaatum: You see what I mean... That is so you.. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by budaatum: 11:10pm On Jul 06, 2020 |
sonmvayina:You see what I mean... That is so me.. 1 Like |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 11:14pm On Jul 06, 2020 |
missjo: Here's another dimension to add to this. The curse was placed on Canaan more than 500 years before The Israelites showed up in the land of Canaan. So again, given that Canaan was not the only people enslaved by Israel, at a point i.e. it shared a fate similar to other peoples(different roots from Canaan), this surely leads away from the idea of a curse being to blame and more towards God acting as He said He would have it. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 1:13am On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:The curse specifically stated that Canaan/Ham would serve his brothers. This came to pass when Israel (Shem) conquered and took over the land of the Canaanites (Ham). It doesn't matter if it takes 1000years, what God has validated/promised comes to pass. With the exception of Canaan, I don't know of any other lands and people that were conquered or enslaved by the Isrealites, do you? Note that fighting a war and winning it is not the same as conquering or enslavement. The 12 tribes of Israel, 13 if you count the Levites, were assigned their lands only within the boundary of the area known to have belonged to the Canaanites. These lands became theirs (conquer) and any inhabitants that were not killed became slaves (enslavement). They held no lands in Edom, Ammon, Moab, or Assyria, even though they fought wars with these countries and won sometimes. Another quick example of a curse made by man, validated by God, but only came fulfilled many years in the future, was the curse of Jericho proclaimed by Joshua. After the walls were destroyed and the city sacked, a curse was placed that whosoever tried to rebuild it would lose his first son and his last son, in that exact order. It took some generations later, but this curse was also fulfilled. 2 Likes |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 1:28am On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:Ok. But I still don't believe that man has the ability to curse or bless that which he cannot create. I believe that power belongs to the Almighty and Him alone. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 1:47am On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Lol, a man who curses/blesses is not doing it of his own power, it's the power and authority of God in him through the holy spirit that enables this ability. A sinner cannot curse and expect God to validate it. There are many recorded instances involving men of God & prophets in the bible placing curses/blessings which came to pass. I included the example of Joshua above before you quoted my post (again), lol. The power to bless and curse is found in the tongue, but not just any tongue, the tongue has to belong to someone whom God has found holy and acceptable in his sight, not just anyone who is angry and then decides to retaliate by throwing curses around. The latter is a beautiful waste of time |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 1:51am On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:Your statement assumes God gave man power to curse/bless his fellow man, but there is no evidence of this in scripture. Whether sinner or saint, there is no evidence that either has the power to bless or curse any of God's creation. missjo:A good example would be the story of Balaam being hired to curse the people of Israel. We learn from that very story that God is the one who administers curses and blesses, not man. Following that reveal, it is safe to assume that the power to bless and to curse are indeed not in the tongue of men. The power of life and death maybe, but not blessings and curses. Your example with Joshua's curse on Jericho again seems a bit of a stretch just like the claim of the curse on Canaan being to blame for Israel's eventual annexation of the land of Canaan. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 5:33am On Jul 07, 2020 |
RuggedSniper:Sure you have! RuggedSniper:Ezra was not a magi as he was a teacher of the Jewish laws. RuggedSniper: Ezra was no allegorical Moses. That statement is untrue. RuggedSniper:What burnt clay tablets by Moses do you speak of? RuggedSniper:Wasn't the ancestor of the Israelites, Abraham not a summerian from the land of Ur of Chaldeans? RuggedSniper: Pharisees were in fact members of a social movement founded in 167 BCE. The word comes from the aramaic word "PriSayya" meaning separated ones. RuggedSniper:Similar in what sense? RuggedSniper:They were exiles in Babylon for approximately 70 years. RuggedSniper:Huh? First of all, you know nothing about Zoroastrianism, do you? You've lost me here! RuggedSniper:Dude, you need to stop reading sources that were compiled by ignorant minds. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 12:36pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Lol, how is Joshua's curse a bit of a stretch? The curse wasn't fulfilled? |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 3:30pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:I don't believe it was the curse that did it. Given that other cities were also impacted in a similar manner, I don't believe it was the curse. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by AristocraticMe: 4:05pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:Nice write up........ i love the first paragraph about the Adam and Sex and the Fall...... good explanation. |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 4:56pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
AristocraticMe:Thanks |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 5:00pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie: Joshua 6:26 Joshua had an oath pronounced at that particular time, saying: ‘Cursed may the man be before God who gets up and does build this city, even Jericho. At the forfeit of his firstborn let him lay the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of his youngest let him put up its doors. Now about 500 years later in the book of 1 Kings 16:34 In [King Ahab’s] days, Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho. At the forfeit of Abiram his firstborn he laid the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of Segub his youngest he put up its doors, according to God’s word that he spoke by means of Joshua the son of Nun. Do you see any similarities? 2 Likes |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 5:23pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:I see the similarities in this particular story. I confess I didn't really have the story fresh in my mind until you posted it. I also see something else! According to the story, the curse that Joshua laid was not in fact his, but God's, to begin with. And this example also shows that indeed the power to curse does not belong to man, but to God. He is able to speak curses, just as He did numerous times, through His prophets but man is not able to lay a curse on another man of his own will or some personal grudge. But this has been informative. I should probably go brush up on my old testament reading since I have not done so in years. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 5:58pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Lol, God did not tell Joshua to lay the curse, same way he did not tell Noah to lay his. At least we were not informed of this before they proclaimed their curses. These men were in direct communication with God, they were holy and forthright, and so their curses could very well be validated by God after/as soon as/in the instant it was proclaimed. The writer of 1kings 16:34 however (said to be Jeremiah), was wise to make this inclusion (according to the word of the lord) because as a prophet himself, he recognized that Joshua must have had a special privilege to proclaim blesses or curses because of the preexisting power of God in him, not particularly from requesting permission from God. The best way I can explain this is that Noah and Joshua were already living in God's perfect will and as such, their steps, their words, and their actions, were within the latitude of the working of the holy spirit. Selfishness or personal grudge was not their motivation. There's the example of Elijah who left his cloak (filled with God's power) for Elisha after he asked for a double portion of his master's annointing. This was a blessing, but it was never written that God told Elijah to bestow his power on Elisha. Summary - Elijah's will, but validated by God. It's been nice chatting with you as well 1 Like |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by budaatum: 6:00pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Might that be because you do not bother to see when you bless or curse that which you have not created, or you don't know that you bless? It's either one or the other or the third option.
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Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 6:06pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
budaatum:LOL ... I believe blessings and curses go beyond our use of the words in today's lingo. I believe we use those words erroneously when we pretend it means the same as making someone feel good or when referring to answers/responses to one's requests or hearts desires. When I talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 6:18pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
missjo:Actually, according to Joshua's own words, God had something to do with it. Something Noah never said when He cursed his grandson. missjo:Being in communication with God does not automagically give one power to do as one chooses. It has to be according to the Will of God, or else, nothing. missjo:So you are saying "Jeremiah" made it up? I don't believe He would have stated it so if it wasn't so. For you see, God's prophets are not meant to lie, even on behalf of God Himself! missjo:What Ham did was no sin. What Noah did was not right at all. And what eventually happened had nothing to do with Noah's curse but God's command and Will, as is documented. missjo:What actual proof is there that Elisha did indeed get a "double portion" of Elijah's anointing? missjo:Oh, I am still here! |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by budaatum: 6:22pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie: It is option 2. Please stop believing. It is much better to use ones own eye to see what is before one than letting the mind contort what the eye sees into what it believes it ought to see. When I too talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life. I have shown you an example. In proper fashion, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A16&version=NKJV]your light shines and glorifies your Father in heaven[/url].
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Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 6:31pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
budaatum:Sure, for those who are indeed walking in agreement with the Will of God. And this is of course not the case in all men, even for those who are born of the Spirit of God! Paul spoke of this being the case in Romans 8, something I have come to learn to be true. I point to the case of Ananias and Saphira. I believe that they were both indeed born again, as in born of the Spirit of God, but instead of obeying the Will of God, decided instead to submit still to the greed that still lay in their hearts, leading them to blaspheme against the Spirit of God and meeting the end that is laid out for such kind. I had originally thought that by becoming born of the Spirit, I would automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God, and I expected that too. But it turns out it is a walk that requires we continually make the decision to err on the side of God(trust God) every moment of every day. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by budaatum: 7:07pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:I'm certain you know I talk of Kobojunkie and not of "all men". For not "all men" can "automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God" because the faith required is too immense for most "men". 1 Like |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Ishilove: 7:25pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Kobojunkie is now born again... Wow |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 7:54pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
Ishilove:OMG! They found me out in my hideout ooo!! |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by Kobojunkie: 7:56pm On Jul 07, 2020 |
budaatum: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: A Response To The Allegory In The Garden Of Eden's Account Of The Fall by missjo(f): 7:22am On Jul 09, 2020 |
Kobojunkie:Nope, Jeremiah didn't make anything up. I specifically noted that he was 'wise' to have noted that part, especially when you consider that the person he was writing about lived hundreds of years before him. We've moved past Noah and Ham. You simply don't want to believe that some events in the bible were a fulfillment of previous blessings/curses, lol. Proof that Elisha got a double portion? Well if we are to be literal, Elisha did perform more miracles than his master before him. The Bible records eight for Elijah and double that amount for Elisha. Figuratively however, the term "double portion" in Jewish culture refers to the blessing of the firstborn. Elisha was not a prophet, he was more like an underling to Elijah. There were higher prophets in Israel that could very well have taken over the exalted post held by Elijah, but by granting the request of Elisha and leaving his cloak to him, he effectively promoted him above all other prophets in Israel and made him his heir/firstborn. Elisha became the head of the school of Prophets both in his resident northern kingdom and the southern kingdom of Israel after Elijah's passing, something which Elijah himself didn't quite accomplish because he was the quiet loner type, never really involving himself in politics. So while we can view the double portion as figurative, it is also very literal seeing that every specific miracle which Elijah performed, Elisha also did some but in a much greater magnitude than his predecessor. Not forgetting also the doubling in number when counting the miracles of both prophets. 2 Likes |
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