shadeyinka:

Note: the word sufficient is a relative term!. A knowledge could be complete or not

1. A Belief is based on EDUCATED opinion!

shadeyinka:

1Cor 13:12:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

This scripture above is why Faith and Believing cannot be expunged from the knowing of God.

budaatum:

I know you'll never give up nor will you consider what you yourself write. It's because you believe you know what you are saying despite evidence in your own words to the contrary, which I strongly suggest you go back and read over again. Start with your short bit above. Ask yourself how the two sentences relate.

Belief is based on opinion. Once you have sufficient knowledge you'd stop believing and instead know.

It is for this reason you do not just believe your mother gave birth to you if you know who your mother is, and also why it is written that belief makes demons tremble as the ignorant do.

The word sufficient is a relative term!. A knowledge could be complete or not

budaatum:

There's a person who believes We Have Been Lied To The Earth Is Flat And Not A Globe. He believes it so much thst he has ignored every single fact posted to the contrary. Would you argue that person's belief is based on "EDUCATED opinion" or zero knowledge?

Beliefs are based on sentiment. Its why a man can believe he is a woman or a dog. He'd claim his belief is based on knowledge but the sane ones amongst us know he's just being stupid, irrational, reckless, damaged, or just lying so as not to admit his ignorance, take your pick.

budaatum:

This is precisely why you are in error. Rather than understanding the terms you use you are blinded by your religion and see this as defense of it when it is a simple linguistic discuss. I guess you are more familiar arguing with atheists you disagree with and to whom you must prove your point rather than discussing so you yourself learn.

Paul is educating you on how one can be ignorant but think one knows. He thought he knew and went about persecuting Christians until he had his comeuppance on the way to Damascus and realised he had been looking through glass that was was murky in his day, and how ignorant he had been. He realised how arrogant he had been being and that he would always have much to learn. Basically, he figured out that his beliefs were not knowledge.

I do not expect you to know this however since you are a believer. If you bothered to understand instead, you might realise that most of the arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees were them claiming their beliefs were knowledge when in fact they were ignorant.

Ref.

shadeyinka:

No Sir!
We only found out that things exist, there is nothing that says there couldn't have been nothing in existence. The amount of empty space in the universe buttress that.

The only thing we can say is that
1. Our Universe had a beginning
2. Our Universe will end (increasing entropy)
3. Everything in the universe has a cause
4. Space, Time and Matter existed simultaneously
5. There must have existed an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of everything


But this isn't true. The laws of Physics are fairly constant since the formation of matter. The cycles of nature oppose this your view

Are you a random contraption? Then how come you create order within your immediate environment?


It cost the earth a lot of energy to maintain and sustain the cycle of life. Yet, the cycle keeps absorbing energy to sustain itself. Why should it? Why should there exist the food chain? Why is there a life cycle? Why should such lives end up dying? Why should so much effort be involved in keeping life alive?
The food chain tells me that for the cycle to sustain itself, the sun must shine for the plants to grow, the plants must grow for the herbivores to eat, the herbivores must grow for the carnivores to grow, ...but without these consumers, the carbon cycle will cease and plants will die of suffocation in their own oxygen and only the sun will keep up shining until old age kills it in future. One wants to ask the question: all these for what purpose?

Life isn't absurd! Life exist not because of man but because of God. Of a truth, Man/Life has no purpose other than what his Creator made Him for.

Can a beautiful flower understand its purpose in a garden outside the owner of the garden!?

Only Outside man's Creator is man purposeless and absurd!

HellVictorinho:


What you call an empty space is actually something.
It is not a container of nothing.
The issue is that you don't know what it is made of so you assume it contains nothing.
Furthermore, what you call everything is actually a group of things or actually something that exists amidst infinite things.

HellVictorinho:

There can't be an uncaused first cause amidst infinity.
The so-called order is the appearance of structures or some sort of sequence.
But these structures are actually the results of a limited observation by an observer who has limits.
In other words,there is actually no structure amidst infinity.
Infinity actually involves infinite things always moving randomly.

HellVictorinho:

Owing to these facts, every observation happens by chance.
Owing to these facts,the structures appear anyhow.
Owing to these facts,events happen anyhow.
Owing to these facts, your plans and thoughts happen by chance.
You believe life has a purpose because you believe in God.
But God can't exist and life has no purpose!!!!

budaatum:

Belief is based on opinion. Once you have sufficient knowledge you'd stop believing and instead know. It is for this reason you do not just believe your mother gave birth to you if you know who your mother is, and also why it is written that belief makes demons tremble as the ignorant do.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/11663600_20200604102351774_jpeg_jpeg0a6707a5c919e2761327fab9920679aa

shadeyinka:

Emptiness is easy to define!
It is an environment where there is absence of energy.

True empty space contain zero energy and it doesn't matter if the space is bounded or not


Unfortunately, the laws of physics proves you wrong. The entropy of the universe is increasing which means that in the past, it was at a minimum. Since it is impossible to have a negative entropy, the Universe has a beginning! If the Universe had a beginning, there must be a Prime Mover else, no change will occur.

The evidence of order is too glaring to see. I am not surprised at your position because some people actually believe that the earth is flat (amidst all evidence)



Are you speculating or you have a scientific number to describe how everything came out by chance? (Don't forget that you accuse Theists of believing something not backed up with science). Are you a Believing Atheist?

If everything/observation occured by chance, Did you also type this post by chance?

But for once, let's be philosophical here:

Can a beautiful flower understand its purpose in a garden outside the purpose of the owner of the garden!?

HellVictorinho:

Rubbish!

HellVictorinho:

There are other things except the universe or what you call everything!

HellVictorinho:

Also,the space or what you call everything is bounded and that matters!

HellVictorinho:

Zero-energy doesn't mean it is made of nothing!
In other words,it is still made of something material!

HellVictorinho:

The universe didn't COME OUT!
The universe is something that was something else before!
In other words,there was a structure that accidentally transformed into the universe as a result of the random movement of indivisible objects!

HellVictorinho:

Whatever I post happens by chance because it could have been something else or I could have posted something else or there are other things I could have posted!
There can't be an uncaused first cause so your analogy or illustration involving the gardener is BASELESS!

shadeyinka:

You are being emotional and sentimental


Your evidence or proof?


Your evidence or proof?


I said:
True empty space contain zero energy and it doesn't matter if the space is bounded or not

Empty space is a region containing zero energy. You can prove me wrong!



The Big Bang theory/Inflation theory attest to the fact that the Universe has a beginning.
I have also used increasing entropy as a proof. What is your own scientific evidence?


You mean you weren't thinking when you wrote what you wrote?

You already know the answer to the philosophical question about the flower in the garden. You shut your conscience out bro!

shadeyinka:

Would you consider the bolded and italics a statement of your knowledge or belief?

shadeyinka:
Let's dissect the issues at stake. I think
1. You take a position that a Belief is a sentimental assumption of a position devoid of knowledge.

shadeyinka:

2. I take the position that a Belief could be a function of knowledge however such knowledge is incomplete.

shadeyinka:

3. I also take the position that for some things in life, our knowledge may be understandably incomplete.

shadeyinka:

If you claim you know who your mother is, what is the evidence?

shadeyinka:

Yes, this your sufficient knowledge has caused you to know the one you call "mother" but only a DNA result will cause you to truely know that she gave birth to you.

HellVictorinho:


I believe you are Budatuum.
I also know you are Budatuum.

budaatum:


Unfortunately, both your belief and what you claim to know are incorrect, so educate yourself please because there is absolutely no need for such ignorance.

HellVictorinho:

Wow!
So you are not Budatuum on Nairaland but your moniker says Budatuum!!!
Fantastic!!!!

shadeyinka:

Let me give you these examples:
1. Do you know or believe that the content of Coca-Cola bottle is sterile?
I assume you believe: but is this belief a function of sentiment or knowledge (howbeit incomplete)

Your beliefs in the suitability of drinking Coca-Cola is based on your knowledge of government regulations, food industry etiquette, etc Your belief is based on knowledge not just on sentiments,!

2. When you fly in a plane, do you know if the Pilot can fly the plane to your destination or you believe the pilot can fly the plane to your destination.

budaatum:

Shadeyinka, can you see an example of a person who believes he is right though he is obviously wrong despite the facts before him?

Let us now see how long it takes him to admit his belief is held in ignorance if he ever does at all.

budaatum:

I know the content of a Coca Cola bottle is sterile. If it were not sterile the company that makes it would be out of business by now! I also know the pilot can fly the plane to my destination or the plane owner would not be risking their plane.

It's called deductive reasoning, and is not some crap I cook up inside my head and stupidly ignorantly chose to believe or disbelieve, if that were the case.

budaatum:

I know the content of a Coca Cola bottle is sterile. If it were not sterile the company that makes it would be out of business by now! I also know the pilot can fly the plane to my destination or the plane owner would not be risking their plane.

It's called deductive reasoning, and is not some crap I cook up inside my head and stupidly ignorantly chose to believe or disbelieve, if that were the case.

HellVictorinho:

Crap!
I agree that you're not Budatuum.
You are someone that I shouldn't care about!

budaatum:


Glad to note that you are now aware you believed in error and have learnt.

budaatum:


Glad to note that you are now aware you believed in error and have learnt.

budaatum:


Glad to note that you are now aware you believed in error and have learnt.

HellVictorinho:

Does this mean you can't believe what you know?
Well,that's your cup of wine.
I believe you're WHAT I SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT!

HellVictorinho:

Are you budaatum?

budaatum:


It's really simple linguistics. Would you say you believe your mother is your mother if you know who your mother is? Would you say you believe there is money in your pocket immediately after counting the money in you pocket?

That said, no, it does not mean you can't believe what you know. But as you have found, your belief may be wrong so you better check so you know instead of ignorantly believing as some do.

As to you caring, please know that you are not required to care about buda but thank you all the same for caring because I do believe you do care. You would not have bothered to spend your precious time and energy to tell me you don't care thrice if you meant it.

HellVictorinho:


That's why I used "SHOULDN'T".
We're saying the same thing anyway.

budaatum:

I know the content of a Coca Cola bottle is sterile. If it were not sterile the company that makes it would be out of business by now! I also know the pilot can fly the plane to my destination or the plane owner would not be risking their plane.

It's called deductive reasoning, and is not some crap I cook up inside my head and stupidly ignorantly chose to believe or disbelieve, if that were the case.

budaatum:

Shadeyinka, can you see an example of a person who believes he is right though he is obviously wrong despite the facts before him?

Let us now see how long it takes him to admit his belief is held in ignorance if he ever does at all.

budaatum:

It is a statement of my knowledge of you. Every single discussion you and I have goes exactly this same way.

budaatum:

Or incomplete knowledge, as you stated.

budaatum:

Read that again please would you. Is "incomplete knowledge", knowledge? Do you know what you incompletely know, or do you learn more so you know more?

budaatum:

Would you say you know something if your knowledge is incomplete? Would it not be more appropriate to just be honest and claim you do not know enough?

Consider the following carefully please. What would likely happen to a bridge built by an engineer who has incomplete knowledge.
[/quote
On earth, knowledge bid incremental! We are always pushing against the frontier of knowledge.

It is possible for a civil engineer to build a bridge with an incomplete knowledge as long as the applied knowledge is ADEQUATE for the intended application. For example most civil engineers will overlook designing a bridge to be explosive-proof. In future, when Bokoharam starts blowing up bridges, such designs will be mandatory!

[quote author=budaatum post=99089670]
That is not exactly the point, shade. Fact is, you would not claim you believe your mother is your mother unless you are not sure who your mother is.

Perhaps this applies on the planet you live on. Do tell, did you need a DNA result to know whom your mother is?

shadeyinka:

Even though he is wrong, his error is still based on knowledge. However, incomplete knowledge.
He must have read books by atheists!
Listened to arguments from other Atheists!
Read a little science!

A knowledge not understood is more or less an incomplete knowledge.

One must admit Also that there may also exist false knowledge (a deliberate falsification of facts to lead to a different conclusion).

HellVictorinho:


I don't have to give you any evidence.
If you believe there is nothing outside the universe,then that's your cup of wine.
Imagine someone saying I should prove there are things when it is impossible for nothing to exist!!!!!
How can nothing exist when nothing has no form or/and when nothing is made of nothing

HellVictorinho:

I never said the universe has no beginning!
I said the universe began when something transformed into something else as a result of the random movement of indivisible objects!

HellVictorinho:

It's impossible for me to post without thinking!
But I can choose one out of different possible things to post!
In other words,there is a random occurrence of things to post in my head!
So, the selection happens by chance!

HellVictorinho:

What is the probability of me posting something that has to do with ice hockey??
The answer is something less than that of the probability of me posting something that has to do with football!
Your so-called philosophical question is needless because God can't exist!
You shouldn't ask an atheist like me such question because the atheist doesn't believe that the universe has an owner!!!!!!!!!!!!

HellVictorinho:

You are wrong!
budaatum didn't say I was wrong because I said God can't exist!
He/She said it because I didn't spell his/her name correctly!
I have never read any book by an atheist before!
I didn't become an atheist after listening to arguments by other atheists!
I don't need science to tell me God can't exist!
I became an atheist when my faith disappeared by chance and got replaced by something called PHILOSOPHY!
I actually went deep in thought concerning reality and I was able to deduce certain things!!!!!!!!

shadeyinka:


You made two assertions, and I asked you for your evidence.

You said:
1.There are other things except the universe or what you call everything!
2. Also,the space or what you call everything is bounded and that matters!

So are your assertions guesswork?

Your definition of nothing is very imprecise! Nothing is a region of space (bounded or not) containing zero energy! And I didn't tell you that nothing exists: I've only defined nothing as a region of space containing zero energy.



Do you believe that every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause?

Why did something transform into the universe. Did another thing influence that something to suddenly transform into the universe.



I bet you didn't see your contradiction!

If you made a CHOICE, then your choice CANNOT be RANDOM! Can you choose a number on a dice and yet the number is unpredictable?




Except you are mentally imbalanced, you wouldn't write about Ice-Hockey! Your response is constrained by my questions and responses.

Suppose I question your existence and say, you don't exist because what is referred to as you is just a random collection of atoms from star dusts! Do you have a rebuttal?

Your obstinacy isn't based on reason but on emotion!