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Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 6:39am On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka:I know you'll never give up nor will you consider what you yourself write. It's because you believe you know what you are saying despite evidence in your own words to the contrary, which I strongly suggest you go back and read over again. Start with your short bit above. Ask yourself how the two sentences relate. There's a person who believes We Have Been Lied To The Earth Is Flat And Not A Globe. He believes it so much that he has ignored every single fact posted to the contrary. Would you argue that person's belief is based on "EDUCATED opinion" or zero knowledge? Beliefs are based on sentiment. Its why a man can believe he is a woman or a dog. He'd claim his belief is based on knowledge but the sane ones amongst us know he's just being stupid, irrational, reckless, damaged, or just lying so as not to admit his ignorance, take your pick. shadeyinka:This is precisely why you are in error. Rather than understanding the terms you use you are blinded by your religion and see this as defense of it when it is a simple linguistic discuss. I guess you are more familiar arguing with atheists you disagree with and to whom you must prove your point rather than discussing so you yourself learn. Paul is educating you on how one can be ignorant but think one knows. He thought he knew and went about persecuting Christians until he had his comeuppance on the way to Damascus and realised he had been looking through glass that was murky in his day, and how ignorant he had been. He realised how arrogant he had been being and that he would always have much to learn. Basically, he figured out that his beliefs were not knowledge. I do not expect you to know this however since you are a believer. If you bothered to understand instead, you might realise that most of the arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees were them claiming their beliefs were knowledge when in fact they were ignorant. Ref. 1 Like |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 8:25am On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Would you consider the bolded and italics a statement of your knowledge or belief? Let's dissect the issues at stake. I think 1. You take a position that a Belief is a sentimental assumption of a position devoid of knowledge. 2. I take the position that a Belief could be a function of knowledge however such knowledge is incomplete. 3. I also take the position that for some things in life, our knowledge may be understandably incomplete. Relating the two statements I made: Your claim:
My response: The word sufficient is a relative term!. A knowledge could be complete or not If you claim you know who your mother is, what is the evidence? Could your sufficient knowledge be a result of sentiment? Do you have a DNA result? Yes, this your sufficient knowledge has caused you to know the one you call "mother" but only a DNA result will cause you to truely know that she gave birth to you. Is your knowing/believing whom you call mother a knowledge, opinion or sentiment? I will say that only When you have a COMPLETE knowledge you'd stop believing and instead know. budaatum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DQSM-b2cc (The danger of not trusting other people's evidence) Yes, some beliefs could be based on sentiments BUT not all beliefs are based on sentiments. Believing could be as a result of educated opinion. Let me give you these examples: 1. Do you know or believe that the content of Coca-Cola bottle is sterile? I assume you believe: but is this belief a function of sentiment or knowledge (howbeit incomplete) Your beliefs in the suitability of drinking Coca-Cola is based on your knowledge of government regulations, food industry etiquette, etc Your belief is based on knowledge not just on sentiments,! 2. When you fly in a plane, do you know if the Pilot can fly the plane to your destination or you believe the pilot can fly the plane to your destination. Of cause, your beliefs is NOT by mere sentiments but by knowledge (howbeit incomplete). There is no way to know if it's the pilot's identical twin brother flying the plane you have boarded. I believe that these two examples illustrate my point that believing is not just by sentiments by knowledge. And any belief not based on knowledge is reckless! budaatum: |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 8:31am On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka: What you call an empty space is actually something. It is not a container of nothing. The issue is that you don't know what it is made of so you assume it contains nothing. Furthermore, what you call everything is actually a group of things or actually something that exists amidst infinite things. There can't be an uncaused first cause amidst infinity. The so-called order is the appearance of structures or some sort of sequence. But these structures are actually the results of a limited observation by an observer who has limits. In other words,there is actually no structure amidst infinity. Infinity actually involves infinite things always moving randomly. Owing to these facts, every observation happens by chance. Owing to these facts,the structures appear anyhow. Owing to these facts,events happen anyhow. Owing to these facts, your plans and thoughts happen by chance. You believe life has a purpose because you believe in God. But God can't exist and life has no purpose!!!! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 8:59am On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho:Emptiness is easy to define! It is an environment where there is absence of energy. True empty space contain zero energy and it doesn't matter if the space is bounded or not HellVictorinho:Unfortunately, the laws of physics proves you wrong. The entropy of the universe is increasing which means that in the past, it was at a minimum. Since it is impossible to have a negative entropy, the Universe has a beginning! If the Universe had a beginning, there must be a Prime Mover else, no change will occur. The evidence of order is too glaring to see. I am not surprised at your position because some people actually believe that the earth is flat (amidst all evidence) HellVictorinho:Are you speculating or you have a scientific number to describe how everything came out by chance? (Don't forget that you accuse Theists of believing something not backed up with science). Are you a Believing Atheist? If everything/observation occured by chance, Did you also type this post by chance? But for once, let's be philosophical here: Can a beautiful flower understand its purpose in a garden outside the purpose of the owner of the garden!? |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 9:09am On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum: I believe you are Budatuum. I also know you are Budatuum. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 9:26am On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka:Rubbish! There are other things except the universe or what you call everything! Also,the space or what you call everything is bounded and that matters! Zero-energy doesn't mean it is made of nothing! In other words,it is still made of something material! The universe didn't COME OUT! The universe is something that was something else before! In other words,there was a structure that accidentally transformed into the universe as a result of the random movement of indivisible objects! Whatever I post happens by chance because there are other things I can post! There can't be an uncaused first cause so your analogy or illustration involving the gardener is BASELESS! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 10:01am On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho:You are being emotional and sentimental HellVictorinho:Your evidence or proof? HellVictorinho:Your evidence or proof? HellVictorinho:I said: True empty space contain zero energy and it doesn't matter if the space is bounded or not Empty space is a region containing zero energy. You can prove me wrong! HellVictorinho:The Big Bang theory/Inflation theory attest to the fact that the Universe has a beginning. I have also used increasing entropy as a proof. What is your own scientific evidence? HellVictorinho:You mean you weren't thinking when you wrote what you wrote? You already know the answer to the philosophical question about the flower in the garden. You shut your conscience out bro! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 1:35pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka: I don't have to give you any evidence. If you believe there is nothing outside the universe,then that's your cup of wine. Imagine someone saying I should prove there are things when it is impossible for nothing to exist!!!!! How can nothing exist when nothing has no form or/and when nothing is made of nothing I never said the universe has no beginning! I said the universe began when something transformed into something else as a result of the random movement of indivisible objects! It's impossible for me to post without thinking! But I can choose one out of different possible things to post! In other words,there is a random occurrence of things to post in my head! So, the selection happens by chance! What is the probability of me posting something that has to do with ice hockey?? The answer is something less than that of the probability of me posting something that has to do with football! Your so-called philosophical question is needless because God can't exist! You shouldn't ask an atheist like me such question because the atheist doesn't believe that the universe has an owner!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 1:53pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka:It is a statement of my knowledge of you. Every single discussion you and I have goes exactly this same way. shadeyinka:Or incomplete knowledge, as you stated. shadeyinka:Read that again please would you. Is "incomplete knowledge", knowledge? Do you know what you incompletely know, or do you learn more so you know more? shadeyinka:Would you say you know something if your knowledge is incomplete? Would it not be more appropriate to just be honest and claim you do not know enough? Consider the following carefully please. What would likely happen to a bridge built by an engineer who has incomplete knowledge. shadeyinka:That is not exactly the point, shade. Fact is, you would not claim you believe your mother is your mother unless you are not sure who your mother is. shadeyinka:Perhaps this applies on the planet you live on. Do tell, did you need a DNA result to know whom your mother is? |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 2:08pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho: Unfortunately, both your belief and what you claim to know are incorrect, so educate yourself please because there is absolutely no need for such ignorance. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 2:14pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Wow! So you are not Budatuum on Nairaland but your moniker says Budatuum!!! Fantastic!!!! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 2:25pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho:Shadeyinka, can you see an example of a person who believes he is right though he is obviously wrong despite the facts before him? Let us now see how long it takes him to admit his belief is held in ignorance if he ever does at all. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 2:38pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka:I know the content of a Coca Cola bottle is sterile. If it were not sterile the company that makes it would be out of business by now! I also know the pilot can fly the plane to my destination or the plane owner would not be risking their plane. It's called deductive reasoning, and is not some crap I cook up inside my head and stupidly ignorantly chose to believe or disbelieve, if that were the case. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:14pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Crap! I agree that you're not Budatuum. You are someone that I shouldn't care about! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:16pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Does this mean you can't believe what you know? Well,that's your cup of wine. I believe you're WHAT I SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:24pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:In other words, you can't believe the outcome of your deductive reasoning. But that remains your cup of wine. I believe I SHOULDN'T GIVE A DAMN! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 5:26pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho: Glad to note that you are now aware you believed in error and have learnt. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:29pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum: |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:33pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum: |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 5:34pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Are you budaatum? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 5:39pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho: It's really simple linguistics. Would you say you believe your mother is your mother if you know who your mother is? Would you say you believe there is money in your pocket immediately after counting the money in you pocket? That said, no, it does not mean you can't believe what you know. But as you have found, your belief may be wrong so you better check so you know instead of ignorantly believing as some do. As to you caring, please know that you are not required to care about buda but thank you all the same for caring because I do believe you do care. You would not have bothered to spend your precious time and energy to tell me you don't care thrice if you meant it. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 5:40pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho: Yes, I am budaatum. It says so on my profile. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 5:46pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
Here, for those who will learn, is something on the topic. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/ 1 Like 1 Share
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Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 6:00pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum: That's why I used "SHOULDN'T". We're saying the same thing anyway. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by budaatum: 6:07pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho:Trust me. I appreciate that you care. Thank you. |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 9:15pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:In both cases above, you cannot know. You can only believe based on the fact that Coca-Cola has a name and supposed standard. There is no way to know if a rat fell into the Coca-Cola brew. You can't know if an angry staff spit or pissed into the brew. You don't even know the name of your pilot. You don't know his qualifications. You don't know if he is drunk or on drugs. You don't know if he is tired of life and he intends to end it all by nosediving the plane. But you know that the airline is reputable. You know that the airways authority have some safety codes on the planes, pilots etc. Do you think the passengers in the two planes used to crash the world trade center know that they are getting to their destination or they believe they should get to their destination? If they know, why didn't they get to their destination? They simply believed based on available information. How could they have known that highjacked will take over the plane? |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 9:23pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:Even though he is wrong, his error is still based on knowledge. However, incomplete knowledge. He must have read books by atheists! Listened to arguments from other Atheists! Read a little science! A knowledge not understood is more or less an incomplete knowledge. One must admit Also that there may also exist false knowledge (a deliberate falsification of facts to lead to a different conclusion). |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 9:59pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
budaatum:But you don't know EVERYTHING about me. Your knowledge of me is very incomplete. Since your knowledge is not complete, at best, you believe. budaatum:Then we say the same thing budaatum:Even the things we claim we know in the scientific world is incomplete. There was a time the prevailing knowledge was that an atom consists of protons, neutrons and electrons. That was knowledge in those days but recently, we know other subatomic matter such as positron, neutrino etc. Also, in the scientific world, there was a time when an atom was defined as the smallest indivisible part of an element. However, such knowledge today is archaic as an atom can be spit into its constituent. Final example, I was taught in school that our solar system has nine planets. Now, Pluto has been demoted from being a planet (we now have eight planets in our solar system). Knowledge is sometimes subject to revision based on new understanding of such knowledge. budaatum:In other words, such knowledge even though incomplete is adequate and truely speaking it is a belief. A question to ask is this: How do you know that this woman is your mother? The answer you'll get will not be anything of undisputable value: such as , ..I look like her and my grandmother! ..she told me that she's my mother! etc Hence you see that we claim to know even though we don't have a complete information. Our claim of knowing our mother stems from the sum total of our relationship with her and nothing more. Do you disagree that a complete knowledge of who our biological mother is will involve a DNA report? |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 10:19pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka:You are wrong! budaatum didn't say I was wrong because I said God can't exist! He/She said it because I didn't spell his/her name correctly! I have never read any book by an atheist before! I didn't become an atheist after listening to arguments by other atheists! I don't need science to tell me God can't exist! I became an atheist when my faith disappeared by chance and got replaced by something called PHILOSOPHY! I actually went deep in thought concerning reality and I was able to deduce certain things!!!!!!!! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 10:32pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho: You made two assertions, and I asked you for your evidence. You said: 1.There are other things except the universe or what you call everything! 2. Also,the space or what you call everything is bounded and that matters! So are your assertions guesswork? Your definition of nothing is very imprecise! Nothing is a region of space (bounded or not) containing zero energy! And I didn't tell you that nothing exists: I've only defined nothing as a region of space containing zero energy. HellVictorinho:Do you believe that every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause? Why did something transform into the universe. Did another thing influence that something to suddenly transform into the universe. HellVictorinho:I bet you didn't see your contradiction! If you made a CHOICE, then your choice CANNOT be RANDOM! Can you choose a number on a dice and yet the number is unpredictable? HellVictorinho:Except you are mentally imbalanced, you wouldn't write about Ice-Hockey! Your response is constrained by my questions and responses. Suppose I question your existence and say, you don't exist because what is referred to as you is just a random collection of atoms from star dusts! Do you have a rebuttal? Your obstinacy isn't based on reason but on emotion! |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by shadeyinka(m): 11:24pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
HellVictorinho:But you haven't shown any depth of thought to warrant a knowledge based position. What is faith? What kind of faith do you have? |
Re: Waging A Bet Against An Impossible Statistical Odd by Nobody: 11:48pm On Feb 15, 2021 |
shadeyinka: Whatever you call nothing is actually something! Nothing means nothing because nothing has no form or/and nothing is made of nothing! Your zero-energy region of space is made of something! Since the meaninglessness of nothing shows the impossibility of the existence of nothing,I can determine that there are other things except the universe! So,it's logic instead of guess! The cause-effect theory doesn't apply to infinity! In other words,there are infinite things with no age and these infinite things keep moving randomly and these random movements induce whatever structure or sequence that appears to an observer! The transformation I was talking about is just a change that coincides with the observation of something by an observer! It requires no influence by any God! The choice I make is actually a selection of one out of different things occurring at random in my head! It is not a random choice since it happens after a sequence of thoughts! But those thoughts show how likely it is for me to post this or that. In other words, the greater the chance of me thinking about something,the greater the chance of me posting about it. So,the post is not a random post to an observer but it happens after random processes in my head! Writing/Typing about ice-hockey on the sports section of Nairaland has nothing to do with lunacy!!!!!! I am HellVictorinho or a collection of several indivisible objects (I am not referring to atoms) and I am distinguishable to you (another observer) and that's enough here!!!!! Let your so-called REASONING which is different from my so-called EMOTION help you to determine/decipher the rest!!!!! |
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