budaatum:


Gained from a lot of reading and reasoning with an open mind I daresay, instead of believing the junk and lies peddled about it. I mean, take how people do wuruwuru to claim Adam and Eve who went on to live like 800 years after eating the fruit died as the God said they would. A child would raise eyebrows if you tell it to believe such a lie I would think, but many grown ups seem to just accept it without thinking. I find such brainlessness unacceptable!

The Kingdom of God is not found in a book, Shade. That's why the scholars in Christ time never found it despite all their study. Christ told a most profound truth when he told you where to seek it once you understand what it is you seek. Just become a child and you will understand.

Below are some links on the subject. If you hold me in your prayers perhaps the Lord God will empower me to write a book about it.

https://www.nairaland.com/6301141/emancipate-yourself-slavery-ignorance

https://www.nairaland.com/4960881/garden-eden-childs-view

I guess you assume that my take is purely from what some people fed me with in the church!LOL!! I've read a lot from several sources too and this is what makes sense without contradicting the written scriptures for me. Of course, I am still open to knowledge!

If you like, you can say I've been biased by these premises
1. My conclusions must not violate the scriptures
2. My conclusions must be in harmony with the rest of the scriptures
3. My conclusions must not be at tangent to God's nature
4. My conclusions must NOT contradict the message of REDEMPTION
5. My conclusions must NOT violate good REASON!

There are three kinds of deaths alluded by the scriptures
1. Physical Death
2. Spiritual Death
3. Second Death
Death is a kind of DISCONNECTION. As a person who is already biased by the scriptures, the question to ask is
"Did Adam and Eve die the day the eat of the tree?"
"what kind of death did Adam and Eve die?!".

budaatum:
The one thst causes you to say the following for starts:
Its a belief. One you got from indoctrination and not from a reading of the text.

You won't get that 'indoctrination' from the bullpiss, actually meant to type pulpit, what I typed, is from reading of the text.

I am quite confident you would accept that after eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that Adam and Eve did surely die when they ate it.

budaatum:
No reading of Genesis 3 would make one conclude that eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil causes death or Adam and Eve would have surely died when they ate it. Instead, their eyes opened and they discovered they were naked and lived for over 800 years after eating the FotToKoG&E so I can't understand how you could claim it caused their death unless someone has told you to believe it did and you believe it.

What does 'surely' means, if not, an emphasis on a certainty and of, a fact.

The understanding you need to get, is that, what you've learnt and ascribed to mean 'surely die' actually means, you will begin the process of dying. It is exactly what happened the culmination of death happened 930 years later on after eating of the FotToKoG&E for Adam.

Another important point, is that the Genesis 2:17 'from it you will surely die' is a verb about what what happen to them. They will without question, at some point in time, stop functioning. For Adam, he physically stopped, 930 years later.

shadeyinka:
My concern is that
1. The tree of death is given a TITLE, "tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil".
The keyword is Knowledge and not good or evil.

The keywords, not the keyword, are 'knowledge' and 'good and evil'. It is just as the keywords in 'Hello, welcome ladies and gentlemen' conservatively are 'hello' and 'ladies and gentlemen'

Don't get distracted by the tree's second 'tree of death' hat. Two things are of major concern with the tree. The first is the experience of something, while the second is the something that they'll have experience of is a gamut of 'good and evil'[/I]. The couple and full range of all that possibly can be good and evil

shadeyinka:
2. Can we say Adam and Eve were not experiencing "good" in the garden prior to eating of the forbidden tree?
We cannot focus on the extreme evil on earth without asking the question: "where is the good". For it seems that "good/goodness" occurs when "evil" is averted/prevented/removed!

Stop typing as if you are green and wet behind the ears.

When you look at the creation account, you will find out that when counted, good was used seven times, namely Genesis 1:3, 10, 12,18, 21, 25 and 31. I am sure I don't have to inform of you of the significance and symbolism of the number seven.

shadeyinka:
In other words, couldn't we say that A&E never experienced "good" in the garden?
Why must they have the knowledge of what they've already had in the garden as a reason of eating of the fruit.
Why was the tree of death not just called "the Tree of the knowledge of Evil"!
3. God said:"On the day you eàt of it you shall die"!
It wasn't that they shall begin to die, it literally means "the same day they eat of the tree, that same day, they shall die"!

Did they die on the day they eat of the tree of death? God every made tunics for them!

Like I said, we can only all speculate for our information is at best INCOMPLETE!

I am sure that though the text doesnt anywhere specifically call the '[i]the Tree of the knowledge of Evil' the 'Tree of Death' it is obvious that that is exactly what it doubles up to be.

When you get to reading the original Hebrew text, you will hopefully understand and get to know, it is they shall die, means begin to die.

Lets test this, give a rat a bottle of rat poison to have, and lets see how long it will take for it to die. I am sure it won't be an instantaneous, as it takes 2–3 days, for a rat to die after taking rat poison. Now relate that with Adam and Eve as concerning eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil., doubling up as the tree of death.

BassReeves:
The keywords, not the keyword, are 'knowledge' and 'good and evil'. It is just as the keywords in 'Hello, welcome ladies and gentlemen' conservatively are 'hello' and 'ladies and gentlemen'

Don't get distracted by the tree's second 'tree of death' hat. Two things are of major concern with the tree. The first is the experience of something, while the second is the something that they'll have experience of is a gamut of 'good and evil'[/I]. The couple and full range of all that possibly can be good and evil

I do not discard the phrase "good and evil". I only challenge why it wasn't named "the tree of good and evil" rather, it was named "the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil". To me, knowledge then becomes the keyword!
Why is it costly or difficult to do good on earth?
Why is it more convenient to do evil than good?
Why is it that evil seem to win on the earth?

If Adam and Eve eat of "the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil", how come EVIL multiplied so readily over the earth?

BassReeves:

Stop typing as if you are green and wet behind the ears.

When you look at the creation account, you will find out that when counted, good was used seven times, namely Genesis 1:3, 10, 12,18, 21, 25 and 31. I am sure I don't have to inform of you of the significance and symbolism of the number seven.


I am sure that though the text doesnt anywhere specifically call the '[i]the Tree of the knowledge of Evil' the 'Tree of Death' it is obvious that that is exactly what it doubles up to be.

When you get to reading the original Hebrew text, you will hopefully understand and get to know, it is they shall die, means begin to die.

Lets test this, give a rat a bottle of rat poison to have, and lets see how long it will take for it to die. I am sure it won't be an instantaneous, as it takes 2–3 days, for a rat to die after taking rat poison. Now relate that with Adam and Eve as concerning eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil., doubling up as the tree of death.

Adam and Eve prior their fall certainly had knowledge of only Good. Eating of the fruit brought them knowledge of evil (in addition to their prior knowledge). Why then would the tree that brought them evil be known as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

I am tempted to recognise that the scriptures describe three kinds of deaths
Physical Death
Spiritual Death
Second Death.
What kind of death was experienced by Adam and Eve on that day they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

BassReeves:

What does 'surely' means, if not, an emphasis on a certainty and of, a fact.

The understanding you need to get, is that, what you've learnt and ascribed to mean 'surely die' actually means, you will begin the process of dying.

I do think you get this from the bullpiss. It must be very difficult for you to accept that on eating the fruit their eyes did open and they surely did not die until 800 or so years later so you resort to what I call wuruwuru to the answer in order to convince yourself to go on believing what you have been ordered to believe.

You will forgive buda please. I am the wrong person to have this conversation with. I will however suggest you read the thread from the beginning. You will find we evolved past this point on page one, and that buda evolved a long time ago.

budaatum:

https://www.nairaland.com/6301141/emancipate-yourself-slavery-ignorance

https://www.nairaland.com/4960881/garden-eden-childs-view

shadeyinka:

Adam and Eve prior their fall certainly had knowledge of only Good. Eating of the fruit brought them knowledge of evil (in addition to their prior knowledge). Why then would the tree that brought them evil be known as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

No they did not only "had knowledge of good". They had no knowledge whatsoever, not even that they were naked, not until they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was desirable for gaining wisdom, which you can only have after acquiring knowledge and your eyes opening so you can see.

shadeyinka:
It seems your keywords is the phrase , "you will become like us".

This connote that God was hiding knowledge to studying the Godly way to be which involves knowing what is good and knowing what is bad so you can separate the wheat from the chaff.
[i]Why would God be angry with them for such a knowledge?

Interesting question. Shows brain use. Indeed, why would a God be angry with them for refusing to remain ignorant?

Can't say I know. But if the serpent can enter into the Garden of Eden and deceive Adam and Eve, is it implausible that the serpent can enter into the book we are discussing and distort it so we believe what we are told instead of using our brains to discover what might be the truth? I mean, look at how some are resorting to wuruwuru to convince themselves that Adam and Eve died after eating the fruit when the text states they surely lived a further 800 years or so.

Go study the Gospels. You will find that Jesus was feeding you Fruits of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil so you will be freed from those he said "woe" to. Or do you see no relationship between the Word and knowledge? Can you resist evil if you do not know what evil is?

The fact remains that Adam and Eve did not die any sort of death until they had lived a further 800 years or so after eating the fruit. Or is it no more true that the ignorant die sooner than those who learn to live?

shadeyinka:

I guess you assume that my take is purely from what some people fed me with in the church!LOL!! I've read a lot from several sources too and this is what makes sense without contradicting the written scriptures for me. Of course, I am still open to knowledge!

If you like, you can say I've been biased by these premises
1. My conclusions must not violate the scriptures
2. My conclusions must be in harmony with the rest of the scriptures
3. My conclusions must not be at tangent to God's nature
4. My conclusions must NOT contradict the message of REDEMPTION
5. My conclusions must NOT violate good REASON!

You keep mentioning "the Scripture" as if it is some God. Did Christ not teach you to violate Scripture, or are you going to resort to wuruwuru and claim he taught you nothing of the sort?

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Food for thought.
930 years does not mean “years” but months.
Adam lived for 930 months is 77.5 years because a primitive people would have been tracking the moon instead of movement around the sun.

Martian:
Food for thought.
930 years does not mean “years” but months.
Adam lived for 930 months is 77.5 years because a primitive people would have been tracking the moon instead of movement around the sun.

No, you can not do that, Martian. You can't just change the text to be what you want it to be or we might as well just agree they surely died when they did not surely die till many years afterwards!

You can not just take an "Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters", "juggle them an Infinite amount of time" and claim "intelligence can result"!

shadeyinka:
What is the probability given

1. Infinite sets of 30 Alphabets, symbols and punctuation Characters
2. A means of throwing/juggling them
3. Infinite amount of time to repeat the above that

1. Intelligence can result
By intellegence I mean Logic acting on data and producing results consistent with the logic.
Or
2. A meaningful book can result


Some professors are of the opinion that given enough time, without any seed of intellegence behind it, a computer can write a love letter or a chemistry textbook!

And I agree with them!

budaatum:


No, you can not do that, Martian. You can't just change the text to be what you want it to be or we might as well just agree they surely died when they did not surely die till many years afterwards!

I don't care either way. I'm just positing how the ancient people who came up with some of these stories would have counted lunar months as "years". I’m probably wrong. Either way 77.5 years makes more sense that 930 years. It seems you take some parts as literal and interpret the rest how you want!!!.
How many years did Methuselah live? 969 years or 81years?

Martian:


I don't care either way. I'm just positing how the ancient people who came up with some of these stories would have counted lunar months as "years". I’m probably wrong. Either way 77.5 years makes more sense that 930 years. It seems you take some parts as literal and interpret the rest how you want!!!.
How many years did Methuselah live? 969 years or 81years?

You do care! The fact that you spend your time and data and device to be here discussing it shows you do despite your refusal to acknowledge you do.

As to your question, I am sure you mean How many years is it written that Methuselah lived? Unless your position is that a person named Methuselah lived at all.

Which is it Martian? Did Methuselah live?

budaatum:


You keep mentioning "the Scripture" as if it is some God. Did Christ not teach you to violate Scripture, or are you going to resort to wuruwuru and claim he taught you nothing of the sort?

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Christ did not abolish the scripture. Jesus taught us to rightly judge and apply the scriptures.

The scriptures is a chronicle of God's dealings with man, man's reactions and purpose of existence. The scriptures is written as a guide that we might not repeat the errors of the past, that we might learn from the faith of the father's an their choices and that may know that we are writing the chronicles of our own lives too.


Heb 12:1:
"Why seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

budaatum:


You do care! The fact that you spend your time and data and device to be here discussing it shows you do despite your refusal to acknowledge you do.

As to your question, I am sure you mean How many years is it written that Methuselah lived? Unless your position is that a person named Methuselah lived at all.

Which is it Martian? Did Methuselah live?

I don't care if I'm right about the lunar months being years. That's why I said food for thought. You're the one with a vested interest in being right about it. Of course a person named Methuselah could have lived. There's nothing farfetched about that.
So, how long did Methuselah live in your opinion. 969 years or 81 years?
Data is not scarce for me so this is not really costing me anything.

shadeyinka:

Christ did not abolish the scripture. Jesus taught us to rightly judge and apply the scriptures.

Have you forgotten how I easily get annoyed at dishonesty Shade?

'Violate' does not mean 'abolish'! And Jesus clearly upped the ante with his turn the other cheek.

Martian:


I don't care if I'm right about the lunar months being years. That's why I said food for thought. You're the one with a vested interest in being right about it. Of course a person named Methuselah could have lived. There's nothing farfetched about that.
So, how long did Methuselah live in your opinion. 969 years or 81 years?

There is a clear difference between being right about the text and being right about an interpretation or understanding of the text but you seem to be unaware of the distinction. If we can make up the text as we like, then what exactly is the basis of discussion here, Martian?

I do not have an opinion about the length of Methuselah's life because I can clearly read what it written in the text. But if you care to know, I do not think anyone called Methuselah lived at all, or Adam and Eve for that matter, as what I read about them is in the realm of mythology, which I would have thought would be clear to you by now but seems obviously not clear to you at all.

Perhaps you need to stop with your assuming false opinions about buda and engage with what is before you, Martian. Just a suggestion.


Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6173410/why-did-god-want-son/12#97276341

budaatum:


No they did not only "had knowledge of good". They had no knowledge whatsoever, not even that they were naked, not until they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was desirable for gaining wisdom, which you can only have after acquiring knowledge and your eyes opening so you can see.

I beg to disagree!
God said, "on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die".
It seems man was created with vocabulary set and the ability to speak and comprehend language or else the question that Adam should ask is "what is Death?"

Secondly, how did Adam know that he is flesh and bones? I assume he must be vegetarian before the fall.

budaatum:

Interesting question. Shows brain use. Indeed, why would a God be angry with them for refusing to remain ignorant?

Can't say I know. But if the serpent can enter into the Garden of Eden and deceive Adam and Eve, is it implausible that the serpent can enter into the book we are discussing and distort it so we believe what we are told instead of using our brains to discover what might be the truth? I mean, look at how some are resorting to wuruwuru to convince themselves that Adam and Eve died after eating the fruit when the text states they surely lived a further 800 years or so.

Satan would rather enter a man's mind to distort his knowledge than to distort a book.

God was actually pleased that Solomon asked for wisdom and knowledge rather than other things.

2Chr 1:11:
"And God said to Solomon, Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of your enemies, neither yet have asked long life; but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself, that you may judge my people, over whom I have made you king:"

God didn't intend that Adam and Eve be ignorant. How would they have been able to subdue the earth?

budaatum:

Go study the Gospels. You will find that Jesus was feeding you Fruits of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil so you will be freed from those he said "woe" to. Or do you see no relationship between the Word and knowledge? Can you resist evil if you do not know what evil is?

The fact remains that Adam and Eve did not die any sort of death until they had lived a further 800 years or so after eating the fruit. Or is it no more true that the ignorant die sooner than those who learn to live?

Why then would Adam and Eve be prevented from eating of the Tree of Life?

Have you heard of any other kind of death in the scriptures such as
-Spiritual Death and
-Second death?

budaatum:


Have you forgotten how I easily get annoyed at dishonesty Shade?

'Violate' does not mean 'abolish'! And Jesus clearly upped the ante with his turn the other cheek.

Let me put it precisely as you wish

Christ did not teach us to violate the scripture. Jesus taught us to rightly judge and apply the scriptures.

Mat 5:17:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

And Jesus attested o the timelessness of the scriptures

Mat 5:18:
"For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

budaatum:


There is a clear difference between being right about the text and being right about an interpretation or understanding of the text but you seem to be unaware of the distinction. If we can make up the text as we like, then what exactly is the basis of discussion here, Martian?

I do not have an opinion about the length of Methuselah's life because I can clearly read what it written in the text. But if you care to know, I do not think anyone called Methuselah lived at all, or Adam and Eve for that matter, as what I read about them is in the realm of mythology, which I would have thought would be clear to you by now but seems obviously not clear to you at all.

Perhaps you need to stop with your assuming false opinions about buda and engage with what is before you, Martian. Just a suggestion.


Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6173410/why-did-god-want-son/12#97276341

Whatever dude. The bible is a collection of mythology, legend, folklore, and some history. So, there's nothing farfetched about Adam, Eve, and Methuselah being based on real people. A person named Shango existing doesn't mean he turned into a god.
Keep shifting your posts about interpretation and understanding.

shadeyinka:

I beg to disagree!
God said, "on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die".
It seems man was created with vocabulary set and the ability to speak and comprehend language or else the question that Adam should ask is "what is Death?"

Secondly, how did Adam know that he is flesh and bones? I assume he must be vegetarian before the fall.

You are indeed correct that they must have known something, but they surely did not know enough to realise they were naked it seems, until the ate the fruit, and surely did not die after they ate it which kind of makes whoever told them not to, a liar.

In fact, their eyes opened instead, and according to Eve, she gained Wisdom, which one would associate with Gods, so would you not say the serpent told at least half of the truth if not all?

shadeyinka:
Satan would rather enter a man's mind to distort his knowledge than to distort a book.

Really? So Satan can not have entered into the minds of those who wrote the book? Interesting.

Have you heard of any other kind of death in the scriptures such as
-Spiritual Death and
-Second death?

Educate me. Show me people in Scripture who died these deaths you mention so I can understand how dead they died.

Martian:


Whatever dude. The bible is a collection of mythology, legend, folklore, and some history. So, there's nothing farfetched about Adam, Eve, and Methuselah being based on real people. A person named Shango existing doesn't mean he turned into a god.

I guess if there's nothing far fetched about Adam, Eve, and Methuselah being based on real people then there's should be nothing far fetched about them living for almost 1000 years too, no? And a God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th too and Jesus sits on God's right side judging the living and the dead?

Lol, Martian. You astound me.

budaatum:


I guess if there's nothing far fetched about Adam, Eve, and Methuselah being based on real people then there's should be nothing far fetched about them living for almost 1000 years too, no? And a God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th too and Jesus sits on God's right side judging the living and the dead?

Lol, Martian. You astound me.

1000 years is too short. 10,000 years is more believable. You tell me how long Mr. Yahweh spent "creating". You are the understanding believer afterall. Jesus is probably sitting on the throne after usurping. The serpent sneaked some of that good fruit into heaven, Jesus took a bite and decided to commit deicide. Ozzy Osbourne was right. God is dead.

budaatum:

You are indeed correct that they must have known something, but they surely did not know enough to realise they were naked it seems, until the ate the fruit, and surely did not die after they ate it which kind of makes whoever told them not to, a liar.

In fact, their eyes opened instead, and according to Eve, she gained Wisdom, which one would associate with Gods, so would you not say the serpent told at least half of the truth if not all?

unclothedness is a figurative term to indicate loss of glory. It's exactly how a once powerful emperor will feel immediately he is dethroned. He realizes that he is as vulnerable as the ordinary man on the street. He is naked!

Without the shared Glory of God, man is naked and vulnerable !

budaatum:

Really? So Satan can not have entered into the minds of those who wrote the book? Interesting.

I didn't say that. I meant satan will rather possess a man rather than a dumb book. The author of a book is human, so he could be useful in Satan's hands!

budaatum:

Educate me. Show me people in Scripture who died these deaths you mention so I can understand how dead they died.

Physical Death:
Everyone except Enoch, Melchizedek and Elijah died a physical death. Animals die physical deaths
Second Death:
No one has died the second death yet. Second death occurs only after resurrection. Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire: the second death.
Rev 20:6:
"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Spiritual Death:
All humans are born spiritually dead: a consequence of Adams fall

Col 2:13:
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"


Eph 2:1-3:
"And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

shadeyinka:

unclothedness is a figurative term to indicate loss of glory. It's exactly how a once powerful emperor will feel immediately he is dethroned. He realizes that he is as vulnerable as the ordinary man on the street. He is naked!

Without the shared Glory of God, man is naked and vulnerable !

The text says "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked". So did they lack glory all along and just did not know it until their eyes opened?

shadeyinka:
I didn't say that. I meant satan will rather possess a man rather than a dumb book. The author of a book is human, so he could be useful in Satan's hands!

Useful to corrupt the book so the readers are confused?

shadeyinka:

Physical Death:
Everyone except Enoch, Melchizedek and Elijah died a physical death. Animals die physical deaths

You will need to find it in you to forgive me please, but if these people you mention ever lived they are very dead now, as are Adam and Eve, like 800 years after they ate the fruit. But not only did they not die immediately after they ate the fruit, they went on to have quite a few children, and grandchildren too, so you'd have a hard job convincing me that they surely died on the day that they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as the owner of the Garden obviously lied that they would.

budaatum:


The text says "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked". So did they lack glory all along and just did not know it until their eyes opened?

They lost their glory after they eat of the fruit and realized they were nothing (naked): demmoted.

budaatum:

Useful to corrupt the book so the readers are confused?

There are many books like that where the authors have been satanically inspired to spread falsehood and death through their writings.

budaatum:


You will need to find it in you to forgive me please, but if these people you mention ever lived they are very dead now, as are Adam and Eve, like 800 years after they ate the fruit. But not only did they not die immediately after they ate the fruit, they went on to have quite a few children, and grandchildren too, so you'd have a hard job convincing me that they surely died on the day that they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as the owner of the Garden obviously lied that they would.

No sir, these people did NOT die
1. Enoch:
Gen 5:23-24:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

2. Elijah:
2Kin 2:10-11:
"And he said, You have asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so to you; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

3. Melchizedek:
Heb 7:1-3:
"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like to the Son of God; stays a priest continually."

I told you that the scriptures speak of three kinds of deaths

shadeyinka:


I told you that the scriptures speak of three kinds of deaths

Even if God took those you mentioned, the fact of the matter is that they are not on this earth, while Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden alive to till the earth for another 800 or so years "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died".

Seriously, unless you are asking me to do religion with you, which I do not really do, or you want to brainwash me into believing what you seem to believe, that the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil killed Adam and Eve, I really can not see what we are arguing here.

I promise you that if I was in the Garden, that Fruit will be the only food for me because I would rather find out or die than be a believing ignorant slave.

I am buda. I understand if my way is not your way.

budaatum:

Even if God took those you mentioned, the fact of the matter is that they are not on this earth, while Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden alive to till the earth for another 800 or so years "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died".

Seriously, unless you are asking me to do religion with you, which I do not really do, or you want to brainwash me into believing what you seem to believe, that the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil killed Adam and Eve, I really can not see what we are arguing here.

I promise you that if I was in the Garden, that Fruit will be the only food for me because I would rather find out or die than be a believing ignorant slave.

I am buda. I understand if my way is not your way.

I have only said that Adam and Eve indeed died "spiritually" on the day they eat of the tree. Physical death came much later.

God did not enforce their physical death but instead clothed them to be able to survive in the outside world.
Gen 3:21:
"To Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

shadeyinka:

I have only said that Adam and Eve indeed died "spiritually" on the day they eat of the tree. Physical death came much later.

We are going to have to disagree on this because there is no way I can convince myself that Adam and Eve that went on to know each other and bear children and live another 800 or so years, died any sort of death after eating the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I mean, just look at the text. It even says how long he lived after eating the fruit!

www.nairaland.com/attachments/13166717_notable02589_jpeg7a7d2dc93c446a71ea8c2922522e8a7c

In order to convince myself of such a thing I would need to refuse to accept what I see with my eyes and read with my mind and do wuruwuru to an answer to lie to myself to accept a predetermined belief that I want to believe and my God given brain just does not work that way. Sorry.

budaatum:


We are going to have to disagree on this because there is no way I can convince myself that Adam and Eve that went on to know each other and bear children and live another 800 or so years, died any sort of death after eating the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I mean, just look at the text. It even says how long he lived after eating the fruit!

www.nairaland.com/attachments/13166717_notable02589_jpeg7a7d2dc93c446a71ea8c2922522e8a7c

In order to convince myself of such a thing I would need to refuse to accept what I see with my eyes and read with my mind and do wuruwuru to an answer to lie to myself to accept a predetermined belief that I want to believe and my God given brain just does not work that way. Sorry.

I think you are the one trying not to see the obvious
1. God said, " on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die". God did not say, "you will start dying from the day you eat of the tree"
2. God cannot lie! If God says something will happen on the day they eat of the tree, so it will be.
3. The bible speaks of three different kinds of deaths, and we conclude that since they didn't die physically (Physical Death) on that day the eat of the tree, they must have died spiritually. Spiritual death is the second kind of death. The third kind of death reported in the bible is the Second death.
4. The Eating of the fruit brought many other consequences including Physical Death of human beings. Adam lived for 930 years
Gen 5:5:
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

Spiritual Death
Spiritual death is when a person is alive physically, but dead spiritually. ·


The above is simple to comprehend!

shadeyinka:

I think you are the one trying not to see the obvious
1. God said, " on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die". God did not say, "you will start dying from the day you eat of the tree" "

And to you, this means they will live like 800 years afterwards and die aged 930?

You will forgive me. Perhaps its because English is my first language and I do not understand it like you seem to. I just do not see it your way. When I read "on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die", I'd expect them to die that day, or at least the day after, or that week, or even the same year and not like 800 years afterwards!

If you borrowed money from me and say you will pay back "on the day", I will report you to EFCC if you make me wait 800 days not to talk of 800 weeks or months or years, but that's just me. Perhaps try it on the Martian who claims years can mean months. I am sure he'd appreciate your "spiritual" understanding

shadeyinka:
2. God cannot lie! If God says something will happen on the day they eat of the tree, so it will be.

Well, we are not talking about God now, are we, but what we read as written in the Holy Bible, which is very definitely not God unless you want to claim it is now okay to make an image of God out of a book and be bowing down to it. Last time I checked though, God is kind of jealous of such doings. Or has God's changed minds? Because I did not get that memo. Perhaps send me the copy you got.

budaatum:

And to you, this means they will live like 800 years afterwards and die aged 930?

You will forgive me. Perhaps its because English is my first language and I was not understand it like you seem to. I just do not see it your way. When I read "on the day you eat of the tree, you shall die", I'd expect them to die that day, or at least the day after, or that week, or even the same year and not like 800 years afterwards!

If you borrowed money from me and say you will pay back "on the day", I will report you to EFCC if you make me wait 800 days not to talk of 800 weeks or months or years, but that's just me. Perhaps try it on the Martian who claims years can mean months. I am sure he'd appreciate your "spiritual" understanding

Exactly the point. If Adam and Eve were to die on the day they eat from the tree, then we expect them to die within 24hours. But instead of dyiñg Physically, God gave them clothings before sending them out of the garden.

This only make sense if the DEATH being spoken of is not the Physical death but another kind of death. And you have found it convenient to neglect the fact that the same bible (that recorded the story of Adam and Eve) speaks of the existence of three DIFFERENT kinds of deaths

budaatum:

Well, we are not talking about God now, are we, but what we read as written in the Holy Bible, which is very definitely not God unless you want to claim it is now okay to make an image of God out of a book and be bowing down to it. Last time I checked though, God is kind of jealous of such doings. Or has God's changed minds? Because I did not get that memo. Perhaps send me the copy you got.

I used the bible as my reference
Num 23:19:
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

shadeyinka:

Exactly the point. If Adam and Eve were to die on the day they eat from the tree, then we expect them to die within 24hours. But instead of dyiñg Physically, God gave them clothings before sending them out of the garden. This only make sense if the DEATH being spoken of is not the Physical death but another kind of death.

So, it's not that someone lied that they would surely die when they surely lived another 800 or so years, but that you must change the definition of death to "another kind of death" to make the lie the truth?

Okay Shadeyinka. If that is how you want to see it. Remind me never to sign a contract with you please and know that I can not tell myself such a lie and convince myself to believe it, and if I tell such a lie to people who know how to use the brain in their head I will lose a lot of respect from them and for myself.

budaatum:

So, it's not that someone lied that they would surely die when they surely lived another 800 or so years, but that you must change the definition of death to "another kind of death" to make the lie the truth?

Okay Shadeyinka. If that is how you want to see it. Remind me never to sign a contract with you please and know that I can not tell myself such a lie and convince myself to believe it, and if I tell such a lie to people who know how to use the brain in their head I will lose a lot of respect from them and for myself.

It is a free world to believe whatever you will.

The lie was this!
Gen 3:4:
"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die:"