₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
An aircraft will do the same thing, lift from the ground and straight up to heaven, thanks to advancement in technology a child of 5 years old today will tell you that the aircraft is going to land somewhere else!

When talking about heaven Jesus (resides there before coming to the earth said "no man has ever gotten their" and @ Hebrew 9:27 God's word said men die once.

So it's settled you stick to what you believe and JWs will stick to what we believe!

Like Jesus, like an aircraft went into the sky (heaven) and refused to land!
LOL!

Why then is this Scripture if Elijah died?

Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."



JW and their bending scriptural truths to suit their warped doctrines.

shadeyinka:
Like Jesus, like an aircraft went into the sky (heaven) and refused to land!
LOL!

Why then is this Scripture if Elijah died?

Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

JW and their bending scriptural truths to suit their warped doctrines.

Shadeyinka,
You misunderstood this text and that's understandable.
From that verse, Jesus didn't mean that John the Baptizer reincarnated as Elijah because earlier, He was asked if he was 'Elijah' and he answered clearly with I am not (John 1:21)

But, It has been foretold that the prophet 'John' will come with Elijah's kind of spirit and power (; Malachi 4:5, 6 compare with Luke 1:17 ) . He carried out work that is similar to Elijah.

Didn't your earlier statement contradict what Jesus said that no man has ever ascended to heaven?
Elijah was taken up to the face of the sky(Heaven) and transported to new location on this Earth that he could write letters .
Genesis 1:20(KJV)
..., and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
You know the birds are flying in the sky right!?

Of course reincarnation is not scriptural, but if Elijah did not die in the first place, can what Jesus describes be called reincarnation of a person who didn't die?

Not withstanding, God reserves the right to create any exception in the lives of men. Isn't it appointed for a man to die only once?

But some men died TWICE in their lifetime because God reserves the right to create exceptions.

Even if Elijah was taken into the sky (and not heaven), how, when and where did he die?

haddeylium:
Shadeyinka,
You misunderstood this text and that's understandable.
From that verse, Jesus didn't mean that John the Baptizer reincarnated as Elijah because earlier, He was asked if he was 'Elijah' and he answered clearly with I am not (John 1:21)

But, It has been foretold that the prophet 'John' will come with Elijah's kind of spirit and power (; Malachi 4:5, 6 compare with Luke 1:17 ) . He carried out work that is similar to Elijah.

Didn't your earlier statement contradict what Jesus said that no man has ever ascended to heaven?
Elijah was taken up to the face of the sky(Heaven) and transported to new location on this Earth that he could write letters .
Genesis 1:20(KJV)
..., and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
You know the birds are flying in the sky right!?

It started with the scripture:

2Kin 2:10-11:
"And he said, You have asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so to you; but if not, it shall not be so.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

1. Something not of this world carried Elijah away
2. Whatever it was didn't leave the body of Elijah on earth
3. The "vehicle" pushed Elijah and Elisha apart.
4. The destination was Heaven

Did Elijah really died here?
Or he was carried to another city?
Maximus was of the opinion that Elijah didn't die here because, he wrote to the king (from Ibadan or Maiduguri..LOL) to king


It's surprising that Maximus didn't know that there is overlap between the books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles of the bible. These books are not sequential as,
2Chronicles 21:12 happened before 2Kin 2:10-11.

Jesus said "no human has ever been to heaven before" {John 3:13} so case closed!

shadeyinka:
Of course reincarnation is not scriptural, but if Elijah did not die in the first place, can what Jesus describes be called reincarnation of a person who didn't die?

Not withstanding, God reserves the right to create any exception in the lives of men. Isn't it appointed for a man to die only once?

But some men died TWICE in their lifetime because God reserves the right to create exceptions.

Even if Elijah was taken into the sky (and not heaven), how, when and where did he die?


It started with the scripture:

2Kin 2:10-11:
"And he said, You have asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so to you; but if not, it shall not be so.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

1. Something not of this world carried Elijah away
2. Whatever it was didn't leave the body of Elijah on earth
3. The "vehicle" pushed Elijah and Elisha apart.
4. The destination was Heaven

Did Elijah really died here?
Or he was carried to another city?
Maximus was of the opinion that Elijah didn't die here because, he wrote to the king (from Ibadan or Maiduguri..LOL) to king


It's surprising that Maximus didn't know that there is overlap between the books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles of the bible. These books are not sequential as,
2Chronicles 21:12 happened before 2Kin 2:10-11.

@shadeyinka,

I like what haddeylium did there. He just brought forth the words of JTB himself: “I am NOT Elijah”! John 1:21
You wan still argue with JTB oo?

shadeyinka:
Of course reincarnation is not scriptural, but if Elijah did not die in the first place, can what Jesus describes be called reincarnation of a person who didn't die?

You misunderstood Maximus. Go and check his reply again
Elijah didn't Ascend to heaven, Jesus verified this.
The Chariot carried him up to the sky(Heaven) as Elisha witnessed it.(Not the Spirit realm).
He was carried to a new location on this Earth where he wrote those letters.
As written that 'A man must die one', He died eventually though an account on his death wasn't written just as many others in the Bible.
Lastly, John the Baptizer is not Elijah.

Connect the thread

It's obvious my brothers don't understand this man called Shadeyinka.
As long as JWs claim they're the only Christian group on this planet Shadeyinka is determined to be an opposition even if his church ECWA refuse to share his opinion!
Just acknowledge Shadeyinka as a true minister of God and all these arguments will end!

haddeylium:
You misunderstood Maximus. Go and check his reply again
Elijah didn't Ascend to heaven, Jesus verified this.
The Chariot carried him up to the sky(Heaven) as Elisha witnessed it.(Not the Spirit realm).
He was carried to a new location on this Earth where he wrote those letters.
As written that 'A man must die one', He died eventually though an account on his death wasn't written just as many others in the Bible.
Lastly, John the Baptizer is not Elijah.

Connect the thread

haddeylium:
You misunderstood Maximus. Go and check his reply again
Elijah didn't Ascend to heaven, Jesus verified this.
The Chariot carried him up to the sky(Heaven) as Elisha witnessed it.(Not the Spirit realm).
He was carried to a new location on this Earth where he wrote those letters.
As written that 'A man must die one', He died eventually though an account on his death wasn't written just as many others in the Bible.
Lastly, John the Baptizer is not Elijah.

Connect the thread

He was carried to a new location on this Earth (Ibadan or Maiduguri) where he wrote those letters according to the scripture of the JW organisation

LOL!

It's obvious you all don't know that there time overlaps between the books of Kings, Chronicles and Samuel!

DappaD:
@shadeyinka,

I like what haddeylium did there. He just brought forth the words of JTB himself: “I am NOT Elijah”! John 1:21
You wan still argue with JTB oo?

Elijah may be accused of an error but not Jesus. Here is what Jesus said


Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus said "no human has ever been to heaven before" {John 3:13} so case closed!

Heb 9:27:
"And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

shadeyinka:
He was carried to a new location on this Earth (Ibadan or Maiduguri) where he wrote those letters according to the scripture of the JW organisation

LOL!

It's obvious you all don't know that there time overlaps between the books of Kings, Chronicles and Samuel!

Sorry, I mistaken you for someone that is Vast in the scriptures.
Ahaziah was the reigning king when the Windstorm in the sky transfered him to a new location.
'Jehoram', that Elijah wrote too succeeded him.
So, you nothing against those points?
Good to see

shadeyinka:
Heb 9:27:
"And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Woo, you're right ;
Your Jesus lied, Elijah has ascended to heaven before, and as appointed, he died in heaven

shadeyinka:

Elijah may be accused of an error but not Jesus. Here is what Jesus said
Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

Please are you now one of fundamentalists? I know of one here on NL—Kobojun.kie. They have the habit of making the Scriptures look absurd and illogical. Surely when Jesus made that statement he was referring to Malachi 4:5 so that his disciples could quickly grasp what was going on. The work of Elijah and JTB had similarities. 2Kings 1:8, Matthew 3:4

But John the Baptist was a Nazirite whereas there is no record to show that Elijah was one. Luke 1:15
So if JTB was truly Elijah, why did he not continue from where he stopped but instead became a Nazirite?

haddeylium:
Sorry, I mistaken you for someone that is Vast in the scriptures.
Ahaziah was the reigning king when the Windstorm in the sky transfered him to a new location.
'Jehoram', that Elijah wrote too succeeded him.
So, you nothing against those points?
Good to see

Some me people seem not to know that Jehoram and Jehoshaphat ruled together for some time before the eventual death of Jehoshaphat. The sequence of events is:
1. Jehoram is anointed king of Judah (2 Kings 1:17), ruling with his father, Jehoshaphat, for the final 5 or 6 years of his father’s reign.
2. Elijah is translated to heaven (2 Kings 2:1–18).
3. Jehoshaphat, advised by Elisha, teams with the king of Israel in a fight against Moab (2 Kings 3).
4. Jehoshaphat dies, leaving Jehoram to rule alone (2 Chronicles 21:1).

Yes, Elijah's letter is problematic however your position that he was translated to another location (Ibadan or Maiduguri ..LOL) is Just ONE of the possibilities.

1. Elijah was a prophet who knew both Jehoram and Jehoshaphat. He could have written a letter probably left for Elisha to deliver in DUE time.
2. Another view is that before Elijah's departure, he told Elisha the message to communicate to Jehoram. Elisha could rightly say that the letter was from Elijah (as the Gen to Deut is ascribed to be written by Moses).
3. Some say that the scribes may not have arranged the history in sequence especially considering that Elijah's going to heaven and the letter are in two different books.
4. Your position is that Elijah was only translated into another earthly location.

These are the propositions to resolving the problem of Elijah's letter.

Your position is the weakest in that it neither has any harmony with the understanding of the Jews not the fact that he is expected back in the future. Your argument must be consistent with other examples in the Scriptures

That being said:
How do you explain that of Enoch.
Gen 5:23-24:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

And the new testament clarified it.

Heb 11:5:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."


Does John 3:13 also resolve this

haddeylium:
Woo, you're right ;
Your Jesus lied, Elijah has ascended to heaven before, and as appointed, he died in heaven

Mat 12:35-37:
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak , they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."

Shadeyinka doesn't bloody care about whatever the scriptures says as long as you're not ready to acknowledge him as a Christian he will continue to argue. If you like go and call the GO of ECWA to come and convince Shadeyinka, he will tell you his church is wrong while he is right!

shadeyinka:

Some me people seem not to know that Jehoram and Jehoshaphat ruled together for some time before the eventual death of Jehoshaphat. The sequence of events is:
1. Jehoram is anointed king of Judah (2 Kings 1:17), ruling with his father, Jehoshaphat, for the final 5 or 6 years of his father’s reign.
2. Elijah is translated to heaven (2 Kings 2:1–18).
3. Jehoshaphat, advised by Elisha, teams with the king of Israel in a fight against Moab (2 Kings 3).
4. Jehoshaphat dies, leaving Jehoram to rule alone (2 Chronicles 21:1).Yes, Elijah's letter is problematic however your position that he was translated to another location (Ibadan or Maiduguri ..LOL) is Just ONE of the possibilities.
1. Elijah was a prophet who knew both Jehoram and Jehoshaphat. He could have written a letter probably left for Elisha to deliver in DUE time.
2. Another view is that before Elijah's departure, he told Elisha the message to communicate to Jehoram. Elisha could rightly say that the letter was from Elijah (as the Gen to Deut is ascribed to be written by Moses).
3. Some say that the scribes may not have arranged the history in sequence especially considering that Elijah's going to heaven and the letter are in two different books.
4. Your position is that Elijah was only translated into another earthly location.
These are the propositions to resolving the problem of Elijah's letter.
Your position is the weakest in that it neither has any harmony with the understanding of the Jews not the fact that he is expected back in the future. Your argument must be consistent with other examples in the Scriptures

Should somebody also lecture you that the Bible records two distinct kings who bore the name “Jehoram” who were in fact related by law? The first one was Jehoram, son of Ahab who ruled over the northern kingdom ISRAEL for 12years and even ruled while Jehoshaphat was still alive. 2Kings 3:1

The second Jehoram was the son of Jehoshaphat who began ruling over the southern kingdom JUDAH but only AFTER his father’s death. This particular Jehoram ruled for 8years and during that period was when Elijah wrote to him long after Jehoram the son of Ahab had died. 2Chronicles 21:12

In fact the nature of the deaths of these persons bearing the same name was different. 2Kings 9:24, 2Chronicles 21:18-20

That being said:
How do you explain that of Enoch.
Gen 5:23-24:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
And the new testament clarified it
Heb 11:5:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
Does John 3:13 also resolve this

So the statement “God took him” now means that he went to heaven? Did you not realize that in Enoch’s time, wickedness had grown rapidly around the region and he was the only righteous man at the time before Noah came on the scene? Genesis 6:5
That’s why Enoch’s prophecy is recorded at Jude 14-15 that God would in time render judgment against that world of wicked mankind which in fact occurred during Noah’s day. 2Peter 2:5

So because Enoch was the only righteous person around, that prophecy at Jude 14-15 would have sparked controversy and anger amongst those wicked and bloodthirsty humans then that’s why God intervened and allowed him to die peacefully without those humans meting out torture to him that’s why his own life span was shorter than others. Genesis 5:23

How did we know that Enoch actually died? Because in the same Hebrews 11 you were so eager to quote, Paul mentions that ALL those faithful men and women of old DIED(Hebrews 11:13) so Jesus’ statement at John 3:13 still holds good.

shadeyinka:
es, Elijah's letter is problematic however your position that he was translated to another location (Ibadan or Maiduguri ..LOL) is Just ONE of the possibilities

Only to you.
Fact; The letter was written many years after his location was changed.
Digest the fact that the atmosphere, expanse of the sky is also called heaven in the Bible (and not the spirit realm).
Thank you, my position is weak because it agrees with Jesus statement that No human has ever ascended to heaven(spirit realm)

That being said:
How do you explain that of Enoch.
Gen 5:23-24:
"And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

His life was cut short. Jehovah didn't allow his persecutors to get him

Heb 11:5: [/b]
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Just like Moses, Elijah's body is nowhere to be found. Clearly, God took care of their body. Dig?

Did you compare with verses 14 of that same chapter
In faith all these died(Enoch included), although they did not get the fulfillment of the promises, but1 they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.” (Heb. 11:13)

Sefini?

DappaD:
Should somebody also lecture you that the Bible records two distinct kings who bore the name “Jehoram” who were in fact related by law? The first one was Jehoram, son of Ahab who ruled over the northern kingdom ISRAEL for 12years and even ruled while Jehoshaphat was still alive. 2Kings 3:1

The second Jehoram was the son of Jehoshaphat who began ruling over the southern kingdom JUDAH but only AFTER his father’s death. This particular Jehoram ruled for 8years and during that period was when Elijah wrote to him long after Jehoram the son of Ahab had died. 2Chronicles 21:12

In fact the nature of the deaths of these persons bearing the same name was different. 2Kings 9:24, 2Chronicles 21:18-20




So the statement “God took him” now means that he went to heaven? Did you not realize that in Enoch’s time, wickedness had grown rapidly around the region and he was the only righteous man at the time before Noah came on the scene? Genesis 6:5
That’s why Enoch’s prophecy is recorded at Jude 14-15 that God would in time render judgment against that world of wicked mankind which in fact occurred during Noah’s day. 2Peter 2:5

So because Enoch was the only righteous person around, that prophecy at Jude 14-15 would have sparked controversy and anger amongst those wicked and bloodthirsty humans then that’s why God intervened and allowed him to die peacefully without those humans meting out torture to him that’s why his own life span was shorter than others. Genesis 5:23

How did we know that Enoch actually died? Because in the same Hebrews 11 you were so eager to quote, Paul mentions that ALL those faithful men and women of old DIED(Hebrews 11:13) so Jesus’ statement at John 3:13 still holds good.

The case of Enoch is not ambiguous.

And the new testament clarified it.

Heb 11:5:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."


What else does this Scripture mean?

DappaD:
Please are you now one of fundamentalists? I know of one here on NL—Kobojun.kie. They have the habit of making the Scriptures look absurd and illogical. Surely when Jesus made that statement he was referring to Malachi 4:5 so that his disciples could quickly grasp what was going on. The work of Elijah and JTB had similarities. 2Kings 1:8, Matthew 3:4

But John the Baptist was a Nazirite whereas there is no record to show that Elijah was one. Luke 1:15
So if JTB was truly Elijah, why did he not continue from where he stopped but instead became a Nazirite?

Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."

A type of Elijah and Elijah are different.

shadeyinka:

The case of Enoch is not ambiguous.
And the new testament clarified it.
Heb 11:5:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
What else does this Scripture mean?

When Moses was 120 years old, he was still full of vigour and energy because God was with him so he did not experience the complications that came with old age and the agony of death because God took him and buried him in the Plains of Moab so that nobody could find his body. Deuteronomy 34:5-7

The same can be said in Enoch’s case, God did not allow him to pass through the agony and pains of death either naturally or from the hands of wicked men so God took him and nobody was able go locate his body just like in Moses’ case but neither of them went to heaven instead they returned to the dust of the earth. Genesis 3:19

Remember that when Paul wrote that when Adam sinned, he said that ALL his descendants became transgressors and death spread to ALL men and that includes Enoch.
Romans 5:12

shadeyinka:

Mat 17:11-13:
"And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist."
A type of Elijah and Elijah are different.

Therefore, the Scriptures teach that reincarnation is a fact, correct?

DappaD:
Therefore, the Scriptures teach that reincarnation is a fact, correct?

If Elijah had died, that would be reincarnation. But he didn't like Enoch!

DappaD:
When Moses was 120 years old, he was still full of vigour and energy because God was with him so he did not experience the complications that came with old age and the agony of death because God took him and buried him in the Plains of Moab so that nobody could find his body. Deuteronomy 34:5-7

The same can be said in Enoch’s case, God did not allow him to pass through the agony and pains of death either naturally or from the hands of wicked men so God took him and nobody was able go locate his body just like in Moses’ case but neither of them went to heaven instead they returned to the dust of the earth. Genesis 3:19

Remember that when Paul wrote that when Adam sinned, he said that ALL his descendants became transgressors and death spread to ALL men and that includes Enoch.
Romans 5:12

You can't explain away plainly stated Scripture. Moses died, his corpse was buried and hidden by God.
Jud 1:9:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses , dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you."


The case of Enoch is not ambiguous.

And the new testament clarified it.

Heb 11:5:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."


What else does this Scripture mean?

MaxInDHouse:
You specifically said "there can't be Hell without fire" but now we read "Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire"

My question is how many times fire will be thrown into fire and does that sounds reasonable?

yes indeed it sounds reasonable only to those who believe in the word of our Lord Jesus Christ and not those trying to deceive people with fake teaching of the bible as a Christian believe me or not hell fire and lake of fire are two different degree of punishment the temporary and eternal
besides Jesus said the reason why he speaks in parable is for them to hear but not understand i think that's the reason why you can't understand what the bible is really saying.

MaxInDHouse:
You specifically said "there can't be Hell without fire" but now we read "Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire"

My question is how many times fire will be thrown into fire and does that sounds reasonable?

yes indeed it sounds reasonable only to those who believe in the word of our Lord Jesus Christ and not those trying to deceive people with fake teaching of the bible as a Christian believe me or not hell fire and lake of fire are two different degree of punishment the temporary and eternal
besides Jesus said the reason why he speaks in parable is for them to hear but not understand i think that's the reason why you can't understand what the bible is really saying.

The worst-est sinner on this planet is Adam, God told Adam "for disobeying me YOU WILL DIE and RETURN TO DUST out of which i made you" Genesis 2:17; 3:19
So whoever read Jesus' statement and concluded that the wicked will continue to exist after death surely doesn't understand God's word because immortality is a gift only for the righteous not for the wicked! Romans 6:7, 23 compared to Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:20-22

Asuredwin:
yes indeed it sounds reasonable only to those who believe in the word of our Lord Jesus Christ and not those trying to deceive people with fake teaching of the bible as a Christian believe me or not hell fire and lake of fire are two different degree of punishment the temporary and eternal
besides Jesus said the reason why he speaks in parable is for them to hear but not understand i think that's the reason why you can't understand what the bible is really saying.