₦airaland Forum

jackpiperr:
You are probably sitting there thinking you are very smart and have made sense . I know you feel you should be atheist because Christianity and Islam were propagated in Africa by colonialist. Remember that Atheism is also a western concept and is propagated by neocolonialism.

You posted a mockful illustration which read " created earth.billions of other planets for scenery." I want to tell you that the entire universe was created by God's grand design . His wisdom is infinite . He created trillions of solar systems and galaxies and he created numerous beings in the multiverse.Human beings are just one of billions of other living species in the universe.There are millions of other mysteries we haven't even discovered yet. In fact,there are thousands of undiscovered and unnamed underwater and land animals on earth alone. The bible or Koran is talking to you based on your limited human understanding . It tells you about the basics animals we are familiar with like fish of the sea. No need to include shrimps,and other sea animals. . No need to tell you about the other beings in the universe. No need to say "in the beginning ,God created the sun,mercury ,Venus ,earth ,mars ,Uranus ,Neptune ,asteroids,etc" All of that is irrelevant. also,it says you are created from dust . No need to go into detail about the entire biological process of cell formation. In many ways ,the bible speaks in metaphors.Adam and eve story ,and Noah's ark may be metaphorical. The earth was not created 6,000 years ago,it could have been created 1 or 2 or 3 million years ago. the date structure we have today are new concepts .There was nothing like Tuesday or Wednesday or year 2007. all of these are new concepts within the last 2000 years .
Even without the bible ,all human beings are embedded with a conscience of right and wrong . The bible was compiled overtime . there are tens of other books that did not make the final compilation. The book was compiled by humans based on what we felt necessary and beneficial enough. many words and meanings have been lost through translations . Also ,keep in mind that some of the epistles like book of Job,Thessalonians ,PROVERBS ,ETC. are personal,but very relevant and beneficial thoughts penned by individuals in form of journals. There's bound to be human fallibility in the bible. For example ,Paul writes a letter to his congregation and tell them that they are living in the last days and there'll be earthquakes,lawlessness,etc" well,it's been 2000 years now and the world hasn't ended ,and there's always been lawlessness and earthquake. Paul was only expressing his personal feelings based on the atmosphere at that time .

The ultimate message of God for humans which can found in all human conscience, bible ,Koran and other religions is simply "love your fellow humans as you love your self" That is the one and only true religion. Anything outside of that is man made doctrine.
whether or not you chose to believe this fact is totally irrelevant to me . But the reality remains the same . Everyone will eventually find out .

did u type all these for me?...lol
the reasonable dudes have picked up the meaning of what m implying...
The ignorant persons like u wud still spew ignorance awt..the same way u spew awt disbelief in abiogenesis..bt believe it in a biblical sense...a

Horlufemi:
lol, I agree to disagree. Mr atheist.

you keep avoiding the other part of my question. I hope you won't avoid it again.

Do you accept all information comes from a mind? as in no exceptions. You also accept that information can be transmitted, transcribed and copied? Do you accept that I formation and medium are unrelated. e.g. A name on a Microsoft word document and be printed, read, scanned, Ocr sent. the paper is not the information, the screen is not the information, and the air where the name was spoken are not the information. good. The genes that made you up is DNA. right? I hope you accept DNA is not genes and that DNA carries information (genes). The information on the DNA where did it come from? .
because 2nd law thermodynamics.
so tell me where did the information come from.
Thanks.

clearly u dnt know what the 2nd law of thermodynamics is...it has ntin to do wit dna sequencing...it deals with entropy..
And ure mistaking it...
All information is stored in our dna...abiogenesis didnt occur by chance... Biochemistry is not chance. It inevitably
produces complex products. Amino acids and
other complex molecules are even known to
form in space....


.

Nobody knows what the most primitive cells
looked like. All the cells around today are the
product of billions of years of evolution. The
earliest self-replicator was likely very much
simpler than anything alive today; self-
replicating molecules need not be all that complex and protein bulding systems can also be simple


.

Nobody denies that the origin of life is an extremely difficult problem. That it has
not been solved, though, does not mean it is
impossible. In fact, there has been much work
in this area, leading to several possible origins
for life on earth...

don't tell me random chance, please cos that is like saying you laid up all the components that made up an helicopter on the ground then an hurricane came and blew them together and formed a fully functional helicopter. it can't happen

if u mean order coming from chaos.....
Growth and order can be seen arising
without a program in many places. Clouds form complex orderly patterns. Streams sort
the size of the stones in their bed along their
length. Cooling basalt forms a hexagonal
pattern of cracks. All of these show an increase
in organization, and none involve any
program.....


The second law of thermodynamics is about
spontaneous heat flow or, more generally,
about the impossibility to perform useful work
indefinitely


Evolution does not violate the second law
of thermodynamics. Order emerges from
disorder all the time

The sun provides more than enough
energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can
have more usable energy than the seed it grew
from, why should anyone expect that the next
generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still?

However,
not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order
from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too.
Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning and embryos develop, etc.are just a few
examples of order coming from disorder in nature;
none require an intelligent program to achieve that
order.

If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of
thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

lol..jazz are real but nigeria cant upgrade our military wif it...
Juju de buy britain colonize us...
Stories that touch..
Wetin boy of 13 years go find for shrine seff?..his death started when he stepped into that sshvt called a shrine..
Abege..
Swerve

^^^

lol...god cud exist without being created..bt the universe cant also apply the same pattern..lol..
Christians claim to refute abiogenesis bt believe in it more than atheists...
Gen:let the earth bring forth animals...let the water bring forth fish...lol

waters of two different densities do not mix...
The air in a sphere(3d) cannot be be injected into a rectangle(2d)...(my hypothesis tho)..for those saying he is awtside space time...

Christians and flawed logics are bff's

Horlufemi:
software is not part of the hardware oga. The human mind isn't natural, you can copy software, you can't copy the mind from one human to another human you know you can install different OS on the same Hardware.
You also mean to tell me that an amoeba has a mind too. interesting.

I see you avoided the other part. answer the other part. Information/DNA.

nt a mind..go read up neuroscience man..
Its all back to the survival instinct we all have...

yes...more prayers...another waste of productive time.. More private jets for these men of god Dog... Jst look at the amount of ignorant mind controlled nigerians there...ts a pity ...i'd rather sleep in bed than waste such time praying to zeus...

Image123:
But you are doing exactly that, taking statements in isolation and missing the point continually.



The people who received results in the Bible and who receive results consistently today do not have the same poor understanding/perspective as you do to the promises and words of Jesus/God. Paul for instance asked for something three times and did not receive it. James and John with their mum asked and did not receive, the gentile woman asked and did not immediately receive, she was even labelled a dog instead. There are terms and conditions attached, and if t=you know them you will enjoy. If you do not, you will continue in your frustrations and disappointments. Also, stop ranting, take your questions one by one.

im nt taking stuffs in isolation continually...
U know why the bible is really dope?
A)nigeria will win brazil
b)nigeria will lose to brazil
c)nigeria will draw against brazil..

All in one book....
According to his will...
Why is that disclaimer not put in crusade adverts??...(customers are priceless^^^)
if it is his will...then prayer becomes useless...because as an all knowing god...he wud knw that even if u pray if it his will..it is stamped....
U might wanna say permissive will...but frm a ominipotent nd creator god perspective its all perfectly planned out...
..so what is gods will in cojoined twins?..to wretchledly poor parents
Babies born with deadly defects??..to poor parents
Babies born without vital organs like the anus etc?? Still to poor peeps...
Babies who sufffer and die frm starvation?...what an endless list...
Like the baby without an anus to poor parents...since it is not his will to magically repair the anus...the baby suffers before dieing...and he is pleased..lol
or when science takes a baby with any of those issues and solves it...are they breaking his will?(they dnt do the stuffs to gain access to his wahever)...or belittling him?...dnt say permissive will..t wont rhyme...(#whenever smtin good happens t becomes his will...when bad stilll his will..wtf?..)really ''All Loving'' and ''All Powerful''...lol
u christians belittle ur god in tryna make him fit to the present situations...
And dude..i aint ranting my dissapointments and fustrations..
Believe what u want..
Whatever i do...is by my merit...ntin else i dnt pray so i dnt see the fustrations/dis'mnts...
All m tryna do is show u that the logic behind ur christian god is flawed..

sonofthunder:
okay... but you do know the promise was given to a specific audience. *sorry for delayed response.

specific audience? His disciples? Or his apostles only?? What u tryna say is that he is the god of the jews only and not of all

felixomor:
My different posts on NDEs across many threads on this nairaland remain unresolved by even the seemingly smart among them.
Science is still struggling with how to explain the phenonemom.
They dont know what to ascribe it to. They have tried severally.

The most stunning part is that there are known atheists who died and experienced the phenomenon, came back and narrated God.
If it was really a function of the brain, such people wont experience NDEs pointing them to God, since their brains are filled with information of "No God".

atheists who see a peaceful afterlife?..
Buddhists who see budha?
Islams who see allah?(pretty sure)
if it was all connected to jst one god...Y?
.

.

the greater variety of differences than
similarities between different NDEs, where specific
details of NDEs generally conform to cultural expectation; ...why?

.

.

the typical randomness or insignificance of the memories retrieved during those few NDEs that include a life review; ??



hallucinatory imagery in NDEs, including encounters with mythological creatures and fictional characters...like alien abductions....etc...??


Think thru man...
The very clear fact that it can be created in the lab..shud make u think twice abt its supernatural status....



.

.and science aint struggling....nde has been explained...tho its still an area of intense research

Im kinda busy wit work..bt lets roll

shadeyinka:
Animals do not have spirits BUT they have souls.
Theologicaly, a Human being is an Living(Eternal Soul) animals are (Temporary Souls). Gen2:7

Animals have Will, Emotions and Intellect. By the qualification of souls, they are!

Eternal soul means that just like Angels, Man has a begining but no end.

genesis 2:7..kjv said man became a living soul...Goodnews and NIV said man became alive...i.o.w man it means man being alive..
Ok...Bt looking at this closely...god's breath was on man..and not on woman..so by this means...women dont have living souls as u stated in.. gen 2.7..they were made from ''bone'' and no god's breath happened...i'd advice u keep the bible aside in our argumentts...because i'd shatter the bible..ts a book thats easily killls it self...
E.g double creation stories in gen 1&2...god creates birds out of the air/water and fish out of water..bt in gen two..they're all created outa tthe earth..(maybe god aint so anti evolutionary afta all)..in gen one man and woman weren't created by dust and bone respectively but in gen two t changes.....the funny tin with religionists is that the refute life cannot come from non life...yet believe in it..because the bible said so...aint that weird?(dnt gimme the magician god shvt...t was stated let the earth bring forth..llet the water bring forth...)

No Sir. The best that has been done is the production of AMINO ACIDS.
The experiment used water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2). The chemicals were all sealed inside a sterile 5-liter glass flask connected to a 500 ml flask half-full of liquid water.

The DNA of the simplest Bacteria is so complex, its like a collection of sets of Encyclopedeas detailing every trace of behaviour from the microcellular to the tissue level.

re u teaching me muller's experiment?..bro update ur knowledge...google is there for u...''synthetic'' dna has been made...also dna bases were also made by some research scientists involving a laser action(mimicking a meteorite) and a pre-medieval soup containing chemicals...do ur research before tryna make false claims

Your Faith in Science actualy repaced your Faith in God. I can conclude that you just replaced one God for another.

you call it faith..i call it reality and fact..i dont need to be a prophet for u to know that in the next century...science wud be in an another whole level...i dnt need to be a magician for anyone to see that science is working more than ur supposed ''god''...calling science my god is ur choice tho..i might as well call anytin we know as fact ''god''
frm ur statement n belief..

If neurochemicals are the source of our thoughts, then there will be nothing like WILL or VOLITION since chemicals will dictate our behaviours. But you know that this is not true. We decide how to think our thoughts.

Do Atheists have Atheistic chemicals running in their Brains? ...... LOL

smtimes u feel u have free will bt u dont and smtimes u do...the tin i have wif u is that u refuse to research...
Its not jst a bunch of chemicals....u tend to give ur supposed ''soul'' the drivers seat...bt actually..its all the parts of the body working together...ts much more complex than u think it is
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

another tin is that..any direction u try to twist ur living soul into...
Its also found in animals...self awareness?...animals display it...
Will or volition?...animals display it...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_in_animals
help urself..ts up there..

NDEs have occured due to different causes of death. From people who chose to commit suicide to people who were sick, to those who have accidents to those who slept normally and woke up in death. How do you explain several NDE reports that detail the happening around their death bed...

Here is a link to a non christian research into NDEs

http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html
You are wrong

i am wrong abt none claiming james randi's prize or wah?
I am wrong that those who reported scenes had all of their senses unconscious?..like flat EEG lines? Etc...
THere's a whole lot of stuffs for NDErs which are waiting for u and ur friends..jst wikipedia search ''list of evidence for the paranormal'' ...
cant bring everytin here man...the very clear fact that NDE's can be re-created alone...shud leave u wondering if its really a ''soul'' or a brain process...

NDE's Occur as a result of many things
I have used a clear illustration to explain the unseen with what we as intelligent humans can relate to: The Computer CPU and the Operating system. It makes perfect sense.

yes it makes perfect sense if u accpt the fact that that program(OS) Is easily found in animals also..
''take the relation between soul
and body as uncomplicated, in the same way that it
is uncomplicated that a cubical shape is a property
of a toy building block. The soul is a property
exhibited by the body, one among many.
Moreover, when the body perishes, so does the soul, just as the shape of a
building block disappears with destruction of the block.''

Every animal have a soul as I have explained above. Instinct is a function of the soul. instinct is a pre-recorded subroutine if you like about the course of action a living being must take if an event happens. It is a software (the SOUL) that rules the body.

The absence of an empirically identifiable meeting
point between the non-physical mind and its
physical extension has proven problematic to
sdualism and modern philosophers of mind
maintain that the mind is not something separate from the body...These approaches have been particularly influential in the sciences, particularly in
the fields of sociobiology, computer science, evolutionary psychology, and the neurosciences...take an example..
how the human soul can determine the
movement of the animal spirits in the
body so as to perform voluntary acts—
being as it is merely a conscious
substance. For the determination of
movement seems always to come about from the moving body's being propelled
—to depend on the kind of impulse it
gets from what sets it in motion, or again,
on the nature and shape of this latter
thing's surface. Now the first two
conditions involve contact, and the third involves that the impelling thing has
extension; but you utterly exclude
extension from your notion of soul, and
contact seems to me incompatible with a
thing's being immaterial...''
think it through

A spirit is different from a soul. Every spirit has a soul but the converse is not true.

uve failed to provide evidence of this...since all functions of the ''soul''
is still found in humans and animals alike..

Kai. I prostrate for you oh. I am sorry Sir.

Every spirit has a soul. The soul is the center of Will, Emotion, Intellect and Intution.
A spirit is eternal.
All human beings are eternal because in addition to their Soul, they are Spirits.
When a man dies, his spirit body becomes dominant.

In NDEs, humans appear as Spirits who still retain their Soul and therefore they can recollect every event thet ever happend in their life. Their IDENTITY remains the same even though they have died.

It is appointed for a man to die only once and after that Judgement!

if this
brain was really nonfunctional, the NDE's could not have any memory of these experiences, given that memories
are a product of neural activity?
You believe the mind can exist separately from the
brain. How, where, I inquire?...
You may say'' That we don't yet
know. The fact that mind and
consciousness are not fully explained by natural forces, however, is not proof of the supernatural. In
any case, there is a reason they are called near-
death experiences: the people who have them are
not actually dead...
Our brains don’t
just tuck away a movie of our experiences somewhere
in our temporal lobe; they store a few little details
away, with a web of associations, and basically
reconstruct the event when we try to recall it.

If your phone was programmed by the manufacturer to start downloading from playstore when you press the ON button, when you press the ON button you will start downloading of course from playstore....

But do you know what most phones are programmed to do if you press the ON button for more than 5 seconds? They switch OFF or REBOOT!

im not askin u what phones do whe the ON button is pressed...im tryna tell u that a soul as a program is not and never feasible with freewill...

Have you put into account the fact that your DESIGNER and MAKER gave you a FREE WILL. You can even choose to disobey Him. That is the level of independence He gave you. Every one of us make his own choices..therefore we cannot be alike!

if u tell me a designer cud create me...i agree..there's a possibility...
It cud also be natural #no designer involved...
Bt if u tell me that designer is the biblical or qu'ranic one or an abrhamic one...well lol...good luck convincing me wit the most potent weapon of atheism ever #THE BIBLE..

Do animals also release Oxytosin?
Can Animals Love?
What is Love?

u jst proved my hypothesis correct wit the above....
U dnt research...
Even when i tell u to...u willingly refuse...
Im not here to argue blindly....
U have ur phone and enof access to the internet....
Do ur homework..

# it fits banky w perfectly(a japnese samurai look) fits ramsey noah tho... Fits falz..looks like a lonely kid.. Buhari looks like lalasticlala babe.. Bovi resembles one mad man that has been parading my area for years... Don jazzy..hmm...father of all apes(common ancestor in evolution) davido resemble girl wey jst finish night vigil for hotel room wizkid??...no no no

izzou:
Akwei lafiya?? ?

huh?

shadeyinka:
There is physical or phylosophical proof except a theological proof which of course is pointless to you. So there is no point proving it theologically. However, I think it is sufficient for now to say Animals too have souls; why? They have Emotions, Will and Intelligence...the software that runs their bodies.

u still didnt say anytin that disprove's spirits in animals
..theologically..animals were claimed to be soul-less..im pretty sure..so ure already contradicting ur belief...also frm all being stated..if animals have souls like humans do..then it is safe to say animals also can experience eternal life...be it heaven or hell..

Its not just chemicals. That is why in electrocardiology, chemicals secreted in the brain are not measured. What is measured are electrical activities of the brain.

It is impossible for chemicals to have conciousness for all chemicals consists of Atoms which are[i] like[/i] perfect Engines.Has science been able to create the smallest life form that can respond to stimuli?

synthetic life has been created by man which replicated its dna..look it up if thats what u tryna say...
Also ure deviating..this is abiogenesis..not ''soul''...everyone knows abiogenesis is a knowledge block for now..amino acids nd some dna bases have also been made by two experiments..muller experiment and a premedieval soup one by the use of laser or sometin...both based on speculated early earth atmosphere's bt not a fact of abiogenesis..
U see the tin is..in 150AD...if i told u man cud set his foot on the moon..u wud laugh at me,,make fun of it n may even try to kill me(gallileo)..bt here we are...Real tech science aint even up to 2 milenia and ure complaining..lol.

com If as you said "its just a bunch of neurochemicals", then it should be possible to keep a person alive by borrowing the chemicals from a live person and dumping it into the brain of a dead person.

i never said neurochemicals keep the human body alive..ure confusing urself while trying to grab my point...i said neurochemicals are the bases of our thoughts,,(consiousness etc) and the likes nt keeping the body alive..ure mixing my statement wit ur definition of the soul..

I havent used dream as an example as prove for the existence of the soul because I know that the view can be highly subjective...
I have used the NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE phenomenon which is clinically proven. Are you saying that NDEs in clinically dead person is the "lifeless brain" playing tricks?

there's smtin called ''God Helmet''..look it up..u'd know nde's is no big deal...ts what the brain relayed before going offline..possibly the same reason why u can have days even weeks in a 2 hour dream...
U see the tin wit nde and its brother obe....With so many people putting so many frequent
flyer miles on their souls, it’s a wonder why no one
has ever been able to prove it with a simple test:
leave your body and read a sign placed in another
room.The Amazing Randy has a million dollars waiting for anyone who can prove it..

As an Atheist, you believe in reason: have you ruled out the possibility of a person having both the Software and Hardware part? I am sure you know that this is reasonable.
Can I put it to you that you refuse to accept that which is reasonable only because it destroys your conclusion of the impossibility of an immaterial consciousness?

what u jst stated is like repeating the god of the gaps...how old is neuroscience?..
When smtin has no proof yet..it is up to the proposer to bring up proof
..frm ur stance it is kinda...
I say i rode a goat to jupiter's europa and planted plants beneath the crust of the moon where there is water...bt my body was on earth...can u disprove that?..since i am real nd a goat,,jupiter,,europa,,are all real so we shudn't rule out the possibility that i did it...

Since you mentioned INSTINCT: Do you not know that Instinct is a prove that some certain behaviours are pre-recorded in an animal for instance?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

How do these animals learn these complex behaviours without learning it from somewhere?

instinct is present in all creatures...even bacteria..frm what u present these instincts are drawn from a spirit source..invariably bacteria do have souls that eida go to heaven or hell..
Bt thats not the case...our survival instincts is at the fore front of our evolution...ts the reason natural selection happens...a cell always wants to survive thats why it wud copy the character(information)which enables it to survive best when replicating dna..this is another field...EVOLUTION

My Sister! My Sister!! My Sister!!!
The statement that the Soul is the Operating System Software of the Brai[/b]n is perfectly logical! You cannot deny it.

oga..im a man oo...m nt a female...m a man..
If the ''soul'' is the operating system...i.o.w all living tins possess this soul...if u tell me that..i accept..bt if u say that soul is eternal..then i refuse..unless the soul of animals is also eternal.
When u die..u die..nd cease to exist..jst like u were non existent before u were conceived...

Even though you have derailed from the topic the example you have stated is the validation of the fact that INSTINCT is a [b]PRE-RECORDED couse of action that a living being must take in certain circumstances. If you use Microsoft Windows or Linux, there are pre-recorded action that a computer takes when some certain events take place.

if ur fone is on..nd you hold the ''ON'' button of ur phone does it
start downloading apps from playstore?
Thats the difference between a program and freewill soul....if the ssoul iss a program..then eliminate freewill..

Actually, our morality instinct is given by whoever (GOD) did our programming. And as humans, we are different from every other animals on this bases alone. The universality of Morals in different cultures of the human race show that we had been hadwired towards the kind of behaviour.

our morals is part of our acquired trait during our evolutionary journey...like i said..if a god was the source of morality...we wud see kids grow towards that one source..bt thats not the case...
Our morals are determined by our society...like i gave u before...why do two culture have morality issues?...
In some cultures..women walk around freely with their bare breasts..ur case of reasoning doesnt rhyme with a god source....even in animals..morals is determined by the group..
good and bad is not a thing its an adjective determined..

During childbirth...the love a mother shows to a child is determined by the oxytocin levels released by her brain.... This is clearly wrong. There has been no chemical linked to emotion in humans or animals. You can prove me wrong.

chemicals linked to love serotonin...oxytocin vasopressin..niqqa they're a lot...use ur internet..

Fathers are known to love their children even more than some mothers, whould you say Men realeases oxytocin too?

all humans release oxytocin..men do during se*x....oxytocin is the base for emotions..

Dont forget that human female sexuality is NOT dependent on her ovulation. A woman can choose when to have sex and not when to have sex. Its not about chemicals, it is called WILL or VOLITION : function of the Soul.

i cant argue much..jst do ur research..the bond formed between mother and child is determined by the oxytocin levels released...in men that love their kids a lot..high levels of oxytocin can be triggered when they bond with their kids by stimulatory parenting such as tossing the baby in the air etc..
Never forget that ur bible said our soul and thoughts arise frm the heart...bt the fact is
Fact..oxytocin determines love...

0ubenji:
No biggies bro, Apologies accepted and appreciated.

I av never said and will never say/imply "other religions are wrong pathways to God"..I only might question some vices ppl perpetrate in the name of a religion they proclaim(as in the case of islam)

I see religion as a way Man finds some purpose to his existence beyond the tangible resource. Religion in another sense is a sort of Factor used to checkmate Morality. So far, it has/hasn't helped in so many ways. This is a matter of subjective opinion.
I believe mine to be TRUE TO ME coz it works for me, albeit faulted, in view of the many shortcomings in my life. But I know too well that Thrz no religion or Faith system that guarantees perfection here on earth.

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It'd be silly of Me to say another religion is false. I'm a strong advocate for the saying "Do what works for U"..provided thr are elements of Morality in whatever that is.
We don't necessarily need religion to percieve murder as Evil. Or Do we? I guess not.
When som1 from religion A apuns to convert anoda from religion B to buy his spiritual perspective, one rigid fact religious Fanatics overlook is this:
*the man from religion A bought ur perspective coz what he held onto, somehow, no longer Works for him, and sinx he sees signs that urs works for u, he decides to gv it a shot*
But the shallow -minded individual is quick to dismiss religion B as untrue, forgetting dat somwhr else, some1 from his religion A just switched to religion B. That's how life and spirituality works. This is my objective worldview on religion.

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On the issue of FREEWILL vs PREDESTINATION, I must tell u bro, this is one the hottest debate in xtianity which remains unsolved as we speak. Ur passive remark on judas being predestined to live a regretful life is a matter of subjective opinion. I can debate this effectively from the opposing side that he chose to be used as a pawn in this case, largely due to some elements of such inherent tendencies deposited in him. I stil cud choose to support Ur view as well.
One thing I know for sure: "u can only be effectively tempted with somtin u must av had a strong tendency to fall for"
You can't decieve a blind man with an expensive mirror, neither can u effectively tempt a leper with a pair of addidas boots signed By Messi himself.

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On the case of Adam and Eve, I'm strongly opposed as to how the author of genesis painted God too, so we're on same side on some issues therein.
I gave my fellow xtians a hot debate on that topic 2wks back. The way the author presents God in Genesis in the light of morals is highly questionable. I got lots of articles here that supports my claim. I just chose not to dish em' out now coz I aint got the appetite for debates on it yet.
It makes me feel God positioned Man to Fail sinx he was created. Infact, the book of Genesis doesn't really go well with my perspective of the xtian faith. That is why I'm opposed to it on the talk of Adam and Eve.
The God whom I acknowledge his existence is not the same God the author of Genesis painted thr..#caseClosed

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Hmmn...HELL..u cud be right/wrong...honestly speaking, my belief in Hell is quite shaky..coz I got lots of confirmed scriptural references and articles that proves Hell to be just a mere scare tactic. Just as I stated up thr, religion is a good tool to quarantine morality.
However, the existence of Hell is taken as a matter of Faith in the belief of an afterlife punishment based on ur Morals in this life. I'm entitled to my opinion on it tho.

------------------------

The difference btw U and I goes thus:
I chose to reason via Faith(tho mine is coupled with some sort of Logical reasonin, which is why I'm quick to dissociate myself from religious fanatism)
While,
U chose to reason via hypothetical pragmatics, fine-tuned to realism, which I presume works for U in finding a purpose to ur existence. #Gudluck2UOnThat

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There's no prob if we argue out assertions bordering on our belief systems, but it has to be one that improves the quality of my/ur/our perspective. This is why I've steered clear off the context Of the debate for which this thread was opened. It doesn't sharpen my ideologies, it only provokes sentimental overdrive.

Niqqa u deserve a lot of respect from me...ure a great thinker..
Ive been wondering if i wud ever see someone with ur level of reasoning...i jst did..
Religion is chosen as per the individual's choice...as u said..
they cud all connect to god..m glad u didnt dismiss other religious views..persons doing that make it seem as though those with a different view of god are fools...irrespective of the fact that religions were all created with the same innate drive...
I hope ur religion keeps on working for u...
On the adam and eve case..the best hypothesis there may be adam and eve are symbolic...nd it didnt really happen on earth..kinda like a lesser-story of what happened in another dimension(as apologetics claim he aint in our dimension #god)
bt im nt really okay with stories of another dimension god who made a diff. Dimension and interacts with the lesser dimension...
Waters of two different densities do not mix..
The air contained in a sphere(3d) cannot be placed inside a rectangle(2d?)...my hypothesis tho...

is it winners chapel? Thats the major church around that side in asaba...

lol...nairaland we not kee me wiff laffta oo..
Lol..6 fvcking pages arguing shvt that can be concluded in 1....una get time o..i swear

frank317:
Wait, wait wait, are u me? Or do we just think alike

The op insists that we cannot understand God because he is outside the physical realm but goes ahead to tell us this same God (we are not capable of understanding) is self existent and has always existed. Then he claims he got this knowledge because he has been able to unlock certain keys by intuning with the will and desires of this creator... Isn't that laughable? Humans lie to even themselves and claim it's the truth... Yet, a creator who can't speak for himself to his creation.... What does he expect?

exactly...the creator presented is a paradox..one who we cant know his ways bt claim to knw what he is like...
Our moral instinct drove humans to create god...a concept to be looked up to..
I myself know religion is man made.. Made by a craving to want to know the origin..not god making religion

shadeyinka:
I guess that you do NOT understand the concept of the soul from the Theist point of view and so, you have misrepresented it and used it as a basis for your Atheistic conclusions.

-The Soul is the Software of the Body.
-The Soul is the center of Emotion, Will and Intellect.
-The hardware interface of the Soul to the Physical world is the Body
-The Soul is the Identity and Consciousness of an individual
-All Animals have a soul
-In addition to the Soul, the human being has a spirit that makes his soul eternal.

If you look at a computer, the relationship between the Body and Soul is like that of the CPU and the Operating System.

As you can see, it is perfectly logical.




You are just saying things like: The CPU (Brain) of a computer is the Life of a computer!

This of course is NOT correct. Just as without the OS, the CPU is lifeless so also without the SOUL, the Brain is lifeless.

i didnt need to bring long issues here thats why i wraped it up
..the soul from a theistic view is capable of existing on its own with spirit as u said...
Can u kindly prove animals dont have spirits attached to their souls?
U misunderstand a lot on this ur soul as a hardware stuff....chemicals brother,neurochemicals.. a bunch of neurochemicals are bases(building blocks of all these)
thats why a dream feels like a journey of the ''soul'' bt its actually ur brain playing mind tricks with u...
Ur spirit-like soul theistically is capable of making decisions ryt?...a base for morals ryt?...
M deviating a bit..bt they are all in the same line as it is a property of the said soul..
U see there's this tin called instinct... in the
christian cults we have the belief in a blissful life
after death for our soul where all our worldly sorrows will be
taken away. However when faced with this death
most christians, no matter how wretched their life
is, will make an attempt to save their life..why?
Ans:Because regardless of what they might believe about death and the after life they have a Survival Instinct that compells them to stay alive no matter how wretched the life is compared to blissful
afterlife.
..
Our morality instincts led us to create what theists call god...not the other way round..
Why are there so many different Moral
viewpoints? If there is only one God and Morality
came from God then why can no two cultures agree
on Morality issues, and why has Morality always
evolved over history, even within one culture?
Why do all kids not grow towards one distinct god before corrupted by different religions if the source of the ''soul'' which embodes morality is one god?..
During childbirth...the love a mother shows to a child is determined by the oxytocin levels released by her brain...
If the amt of oxytocin released is little it makes such a woman not care up to standards for her child...can we now say this woman is immoral or a bad person?or evil?
No bro..t was as a result of the level of what was released...
Jst do a lotta researches bro...
With a straight mind..not a theistic one...u'd grab more...

0ubenji:
A debate on the source of this universe from a religious perspective is largely unproductive to me. Whether u guys debate it from now until next year. It stil boils down to what u choose to av Faith in as the source of the universe. I fink my stand on this is evident in the comment where I 1st quoted u on this thread.

no..atheism doesnt take faith....
Sm atheist choose to believe cases presented by science as the true origin of life...sm choose not to...
Bt even those who choose to do not do so by faith...except on the basis of abiogenesis...a little faith..cs two experiments have been done so so far...i fink one abt the premedial soup which laser was involved and muller experiment...yielding results bt based on a speculated early earth atmosphere

0ubenji:
Good question!
U knw I used to, and prolly stil av this idea of why praying when his will supersede anyways.
This is where the concept of PERFECT WILL & PERMISSIVE WILL comes in..
I don't need to define wat dese two terms are, as it's alredi evident from their name.
Makin a distinction between God’s perfect will and His
permissive will is a major problem we xtians face in the course of our lives, except by his sufficient grace, we tend to not want to pray or end up praying against his will.
This is the major reason we need to goto God in prayer. This is our Utmost job as xtians and the bible av never undermined its importance in our lives, as evident from all the scriptures u earlier quoted abt prayer and answers.
Brother, if u'd be honest with me, I'm tryna approach this issue from a realistic point of view, not as a religious fanatic.
There are stil questions in my life I desperately need answers to as we speak. So kindly do away with the fact that christianity is perfection. Nah! That's the msg of the religious fanatics.
Whether you're a xtian or not. Perfect life is a mirage.
I don't intend to Judge ur beliefs, that's God's job not mine.
But thr are some misconceptions that needs be sieved.
Apostle paul's life was far from normal, talkless of perfect, from a wordly perspective, yet He served God and made achievements that apun to be major yardsticks in xtianity today.
Pls keep this in mind, some achievements or setbacks in Life are independent of religion.
Let's not Get paranoid with always lookin for som1 to blame when things go wrong.
Cc: raphieMontella

forgive me if i made derogatory comments..k lets get to business...
If i do smtin and it goes wrong baba i blame myself and no one else be it satan or anytin...i take full responsibility instead of looking for who to blame..
My achievements are independent of religion..
Frm all said on perfect will...that means predestination is inevitable.....he has chosen his paradise beings..hes jst enjoying the show he made?...there are some casess which this is so...like judas...without predestination..judas wud have never betrayed jesus and his grand plan which has no meaning to me wud never come to pass thru judas if u can relate ur bible u'd understand...in the end judas killed himself...now possibly god wud say
god:lol burn in hell judas...despite judas's life has been planned completely..
He cud also plan the life of someone to be a good christian tru awt the person's life then at the brink of death..(lets say an accident now) he plans the person wud tell a lie...the person does so and ends up in hell(may have converted many souls or not) and its fun to him...just an examplee...
Also since he is all knowing m guessing he has planned everytin down how he wants it to be so theres a huge possibility ts all perfect will...permissive will may also exist..
Also if u look at the story of adam and eve frm a god perspective..t seems all planned out
an all loving god with a grudge of over 6k years? on his children...smhw...with eternal damnnation?
Many issues...isiah45:7 i make peace and create evil...
The god presented contradicts itself in the bible...u called it holy..are catholics satanists or christians?..ur answer determines my follow up here..
Frm the beginning of the bible to the end is contradictory and creates a paradox...so i choose he exists not...ive read the quran also...another shvt
one case which is funny is that of uzzah..t shows man tryna create an all powerful god who doesnt look back to induce fear.
The firery hell is not in the old testament..that hell is jst a means to drag more persons in line..nd whenever one begins to think outside the box...the fear of hell whips u back in line
lets start somewhere
why do u feel other religions are the wrong pathway to god...
Why do u believe urs is true?



U converse well tho

0ubenji:
U indeed raised a very strong point in the issue of God's will seeing cruel thingz apun. This has always baffled me too. Many xtians av tried to no avail, to grasp this concept to simplistic human comprehension.
This is why the most thought-provoking thing in the xtian Faith, arguably, apuns to be GOD's WILL.
U knw why?
It's coz we humans, unconsciously, want our will to supercede his.


One funny tin I noticed is, u blame a God whom u refuse to acknowledge his existence and supremacy for an instance u cited of conjoined twins above.
U don't blame non-existent tinz mehn..
Imagine, u an Atheist blaming somtin u don't bliv in for the negative circumstances in ur life. Very strange I must say.

The bone of contention here is in the Atheistic belief of a non-existent God. The same one y'all are quick to blame. For EVIL, but wud never credit for GOOD. You'd rather credit GOOD to coincidence or any oda forces except GOD.
Reason that bro.

lol bro...dnt misquote me bro..dnt make that mistake abeg..i am not acknowledging god(christian god here)...i never will..
What i was tryin to do was to show u that the logic and concept behind the jewish(christian god) is flawed...big time...it creates a paradox and a paradox is non existent..u cant claim a dog flies like bird nd breathes out fire like a dragon...such a dog is non existent...
The thing is that atheists do not argue abt sometin which we say is non existent...the tin is that u tell us that there is and u know d god and yu have present the god to us..bt the god doesnt logically rhyme with what u say...so we try to show u the errors in it... As per the evil stuff..
On wanting our will to supercede his own..u logically mean u are better and deserve ur condition more than those who find themselves in such unpleasant situations?
Or if one of the above defects is healed by science..e.g cojoined twins most times die...so if one is healed are we dismantling his will (belittling him) for ours to succeed?

Or kids who die frm the defects..eg the kid without an anus...the kid wud suffer before dieing...is it his will to bring a kid to this world and then make the innocent kid to suffer and die for nothing?
Cool ryt?...because it doesnt affect u...

This is jst a little stuff on a much larger concept of the biblical god...there are a lot in it...
If u take ur time through it..u wud find awt that that book is the construction of medieval human minds...lonely shepherds who have all the time in the world to gaze into the stars and start writing what they think..some probablyy drunk natural hallucinogenic substances etc
when u look at the god presented..it is more man than god..u'd know it is the construct of man......such a local god cannot be the source of this universe..even the quran....i tell u confidently

0ubenji:
Quite strange that u take bible quotations literally from what u read innit.

Lemme introduce u to an interesting story relating to ur idea of "prayers FOR JUST ANYTHING and expect to get answers for it, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is"



Matthew 26:39, on the night before His crucifixion, Jesus
prayed,
“




O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me;
nevertheless, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL.




This prayer wasn't answered in literal context, as it is that he was crucified afterwards.

All the copy and paste work u have up thr were Jesus's teachings and exact words. The same ones u hinge on.
Are u not baffled, that even he(jesus) that allegedly stated Matthew 7:7 et' al cudnt even have it in the exact context that u've always taken those verses for?
Definitely, You can't say he dint av Faith...hmmn..what cud be the prob?

so..landlord..
Don't u fink u're missing somtin here..??

what is gods will in pple who are born with deadly defects...cojoined twins kids with sm parts missing..kids without anus's etc..
Born to wretchedly poor parents...
And he refuses to do smtin..is it a game?

4everGod:
but you believe it was created correct?

personally i dont...bt the possibility cannot be ruled out completely(jst a lil)
the way planets form etc has been all observed...
Stars are being formed per time..
All of these happening naturally...
Astro physics hasnt been able to say what triggered the singularity and what was before the singularity...we dnt know yet ....
So its always human nature to want to fill a block in knowledge with a god...
Like now...some persons believe the ufos placed the starting root of our earth(i dont believe that shvt tho)..not otem's ufo stuff..
They believe in aliens creating us bt we cant confidently say there are no aliens..
Kelper earths are there...etc
if we do find life on them pple wud want to replace religious gods with them..tho we might have formed/evolved/made the same way they did...
Ts human nature to place god..

Goddys:
Gift of spirit differs. Some have gift of prophecy,some gift of healing etc. Comr to Chosen with any person with any physical ailment whatsoever,if you don't see what will shock your generations,let me be put to shame in this life! Stop boasting. Come and see raw power as Pastor Lazarus Muoka releases prayers to heaven

an amputee?
There's a chosen branch some metres away from my home...i dont usually get a cool evening when they pray..chisos see speakers they use..noise pollution..
I havent seen anybody in my street healed there..buh
I can take one there...can i?

Breakdbond:
When science does, they will ascribe it to their powerless God

really sad...
A man wud take an appropriate medicine for an appropriate illness...and when he is better
he wud rant loudly thank u lord for curing me...really sad...

0ubenji:
It is with much regret that I'd av to objectively agree u juz spat the Naked Truth.
That is where FAITH comes in, which is the basis for evry religion.

thank you for ur honesty

hopefulLandlord:
Bros listen to yourself

Look around you

Your bible said in 6 (six) separate places that if you ask ANYTHING in his name (Jesus) he'll do it

There's pastor nick, who has no hands and legs

There's Ayefele who's wheelchair bound

People of your faith die like every other

Haven't they prayed with faith greater than a "mustard seed"?

Why hasn't your god answered them?


Now to your analogy about phones

My phone is with me

If I press the power button it goes off, if I do again, it comes on

That's like 99.99% efficiency

If you're not being dishonest, prayers prayed vs prayers answered doesn't have anything close that kinda accuracy


Let's me be generous here and say so called prayer works 1% of the time (generous)

Now if once out of every one hundred times I push power button, it "works"; its only natural to put it down to "coincidence" anytime it works because the amount of time, it doesn't work far outnumbers the times it works

i wont even call the placebo effect a coincedence if u included it in that 1 percent...
If u did...deduct and re-calculate

4everGod:
Are you one of those who have gone deep into the things concerning the physical universe? If so why not educate me.

baba standard sites many
esa,,asi,,,nasa,,space,,havard..
Well...im nt tryna belittle u or sometin
bt i can confidently tell u..if this world was created(set in motion)..it is not an abrahamic god that did so...
Science does not claim full knowledge of the origin bt will never fill that gap with a god...because science will keep on improving...
Science grows as the earth ages

op he was crucified ni...
U wan use romans play?...
After mary deceive the guy and him papa say she no play illegal match before them marry..bros j cm de feel say him na god pikin...
After the guy constitute nuisance finish for different towns finish..na im romans provoke na..them beat sense enter him head...give am better punishment..join am with cross for public
the guy head com correct..bros j cm shout myy god myy god why did u forsake me..
When that kind talk commot from pexin mouth u suppose know sayy him sense dn come back


na bedtime stories them be

lol jst passing by...

op shadeyinka...
Pls and pls do ur proper research on the workings of the brain...
What u call the soul is actuallly consiousness...and that soul is not an independent object capable of existing,thinking,making decisions of its own...(moral)
The brain presents the mind(soul) and not the other way round...
Ur concept of the soul is actually found in animals also..unless u are to admit animals have eternal life in eida heaven or hell etc
the soul is not a being...