₦airaland Forum

AlBaqir: “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of
whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said:
Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said:
“(Those who follow) that which I and my
companions follow.”
~Sahih al-Tirmidhi (hadith no. 2641)

There is a peroblem here and if i get well that means. (Sunan Ibn Majah, no. 3982 ) contradict with the one you just cited.?

AlBaqir: I just cited this in hurry in sha Allah I will bring more references and exact quote.

Okay

tbaba1234: ..

which means it is not sahih

Rilwayne001: Also......
“And indeed this, your religion, is one religion , and I am your Lord, so fear Me. But the people divided their religion among them into sects – each faction, in what it has, rejoicing.” ( Holy Qur’an 23:52-53 )

Please make some explanations on the above too

tbaba1234: Read my previous comments...

I cant fiñd ur previous comment on it..

..

Also......

“And indeed this, your religion, is one religion , and I am your Lord, so fear Me. But the people divided their religion among them into sects – each faction, in what it has, rejoicing.” ( Holy Qur’an 23:52-53 )

And Bro Al baqir and tbaba1234.

You have'nt address the second Version “My community will divine into seventy three sects all but one the zindiqs will enter the Garden”

^^ I was actually expecting you sir..

but please kindly cite the hadith that end with "my companion" and not Al jamaha

tbaba1234: Stop half quoting ayat.

Read it as a whole.. in fact read from 44 to understand the conversation.

It is clearly talking about people of the book.

I. It talks first about the Quran confirming what is true from what came before.

Ii. For each prophet, a sharia was revealed..
'For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way...'

Every nation that received revelation was given a sharia.

Iii. The test is to find out who comes to the right way. A test indicates some will fail.

Iv. And regardless of what era or prophet, one thing that will be in common is that you will compete in good things. The muslims in whatever era.

V. The differences amongst muslims of every sharia in every era will be made clear.

Okay, i think am getting your point now.

But you have'nt replied the second quote..

tbaba1234: Context.

I. The ayah talks primarily about people of the book not sects.

Ii. Resolving the differences does not mean the people of the book are correct. It does not mean they are saved.

Yes... but the part where it says "So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ"

the people that are been addressd with the bolded ^^ is still not clear to me. Can you please do some explanation on it?

tbaba1234: Iii. The same applies with sects.

Since you agreed that it applies with sects. then do you agree with the following points of the ayah?:

1) So in the mean time we should race towards what is good. Sure we will have differences; but let us focus on building up and not tearing down.

2) Ultimately Allah (swt) will settle our differences.

Ol boy...

Extremism is dangerous , but it is more dangerous to let it flourish and manifest itself the way the terrorist organisation known as the Islamic State group has been allowed to. The problem with allowing extremism to grow unchallenged is that it will eventually drive rational parties into extreme reactions in order to combat it. Thus, more innocent civilians will inevitably suffer in the process , as the problem becomes too big to contain.

Targeting minorities
Recently, Islamic State seized Mar Behnam , an ancient monastery near the predominantly Christian town of Qarqosh, to the southeast of Mosul . The militants expelled the monks,allowing them to take only the clothes they were wearing and preventing them from saving any of the monastery's relics. A few days earlier, Christians in Mosul were given an ultimatum to convert , pay a religious levy , or face death . Their response has been a mass exodus that left the northern Iraqi city empty of Christians for the first time in its history.

The Islamic State has been engaged in a vicious campaign of abductions, murders, and expulsions of minorities in all the areas they sweep through . In practice , they exemplify the very reason why fighting , i.e . armed jihad , was permitted in Islam , which was to combat the oppression of aggressors like the Islamic State:

" Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged - God has the power to help them - those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, 'Our Lord is God.' If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries , churches , synagogues , and mosques, where God' s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed . " [ 22:39 -40]

This verse in the Quran is recognised by Muslim scholarly authorities to contain the primary reason for armed jihad in Islam , which is the repelling of unjustified aggression against oneself or others due to difference in belief . Moreover , a corollary that is implicitly understood from it is that non - Muslims living in Muslim lands must be protected and it is impermissible to unjustly expel them or destroy their houses of worship . In their treatment of Iraqi Christians , Islamic State fighters flagrantly commit the very acts abhorred in Islamic teachings .

Religious violence is quickly metastasising. After seizing Mosul and Tikrit, the Islamic State are stepping up their attacks in Baghdad. The recent wave of Baghdad bombings exercised by the Islamic State targeted mostly Shia Muslim areas , the victims of which have been overwhelmingly civilians . If this is an indication , we can expect that should Islamic State take over Baghdad, we will witness a genocide of an unfathomable scale if the militant group continues to be unchallenged .

In June, the Islamic State militants staged mass executions , advertising afterwards that they had killed in one report 1 ,700 Shia soldiers in Tikrit. It is not for nothing that in every case the executed have been men. According to the Islamic State 's bastardised conceptualisation of Islam , Shia are not even Muslims , and therefore once they are conquered, they can kill the men and enslave the women and children. Thus, it is not far- fetched that we may soon hear of slaves sold in public markets of northern Iraq and Syria where this group operates .

In response to the eminent threat from the Islamic State on the Iraqi capital, Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq's highest - ranking Shia Muslim cleric , issued a fatwa summoning the country 's Iraqi Muslims , regardless of sect , to take up arms and defend the country , its people, and its holy sites. However, Sunnis, who remain divided on where they should pledge their allegiance , do not consider Ayatollah Sistani's call authoritative. The impetus for them to join the army , remain neutral , or even fight among the ranks of the Islamic State is largely determined by prospective political gains that depend on their specific tribal or geographical context , and how they feel about Prime Minister Nouri al - Maliki and his government.

One the other hand , a number of different Shia militias have sprung up , and Baghdad is increasingly on edge as it prepares for war with the Islamic State . However , it seems that among these militia groups are fringe Shia militants exercising their own brand of terrorism , killing 25 women in Baghdad who were accused of prostitution . The region is thus falling deeper into lawlessness .

The extreme anti - Shia sentiment harboured by the Islamic State militants did not develop in a vacuum . BBC World Service recently released a documentary titled " Freedom to Broadcast Hate" in which they investigated the proliferation of TV channels in the Arab world , spreading sectarian religious and political messages that deepen the schism between Sunni and Shia Muslims . In some cases , TV evangelists sensationally invoked God in prayer to destroy their counterparts , whom they view as an existential threat to Islam as a whole , and entice their viewers to do the same.Most of the recruited fighters for the Islamic State are products of a TV- raised generation, having their religious and political opinions formed through watching such sectarian programmes.

The Islamic State' s policies of persecution are not limited to minorities of Shia Muslims and Christians. Recently, the militants carried out a public execution , stoning to death a woman in the northern Syrian province of Raqqa after she was handed this sentence for allegedly committing adultery. Hadi Salameh, one of the activists in the province, said that residents are " terrified " of the Islamic State, but fear the consequences of speaking up.

In addition, Amnesty International has documented several abuses by the Islamic State against local civilian populations , including children in areas under their control . These include flogging with rubber generator belts or cables, torture with electric shock , or being forced to adopt painful stress positions. This is not to mention an enforcement of a religious law that sees as many as five executions per week.

Prophet Muhammad 's warnings
In all their abuses and atrocities , the Islamic State claims to be merely implementing Sharia under their alleged caliphate.However, a reading of history and an understanding of Islamic law would quickly reveal that the Islamic State group is either grossly misinformed, or knowingly engaging in abuses they deem necessary to gain firm control over the population.

The leader of Islamic State , Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi , is alleged in a published biography to be a descendant of Prophet Muhammad and his tribe , Quraysh. While this may be an attractive quality to his supporters pursuing their delusional caliphate, the Prophet Muhammad would definitely differ as his transmitted statements indicate . Prophet Muhammad said , "The destruction of my people will be at hands of young men from Quraysh. " In another Hadith narration he said , " There will be a widespread tribulation that will include everyone, the stirring of which will be by a man from my household, claiming he is of my lineage but in reality he is not , for my people are God fearing." In fact , Prophet Muhammad implores people to fight such an individual and his group when possible in order to stop his mischief in the land.

Although Baghdadi' s group has been widely condemned by numerous Muslim scholars, the danger lurks in the fact that average young Muslims in the area may be swayed by his rhetoric . In his released sermon after taking control over Mosul , Baghdadi carefully reiterated statements made by the first caliph after the passing of Prophet Muhammad as heurged Muslims to join in what he called a jihad. Combined with what seemed like a sweeping victorious takeovers of major cities, such a presentation can be very attractive to enthusiastic Muslim youth .

We are no longer dealing with al -Qaeda militants in caves in the mountains of Afghanistan . As the Islamic State has been allowed to claim more land and power and become more organised , we have witnessed more suffering and death . It is disconcerting that we might reach a point of no return, and have more suffering and casualties.

[url=m.aljazeera.com/story/20148114244751872]SOURCE[/url]

tbaba1234: What is your understanding of the ayah? Why did you quote half of the ayah?

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 47:
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 48:
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 49:
So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.
(English - Pickthal)

via iQuran

My understanding of the ayah is still the same thing with the explanation in the OP.

1) If Allah (swt) he could have made us all one. This is
in everything, from creed, to race, and so forth. even in religion (am i right?)

2) There is wisdom in not making us one in everything. Allah (swt) intends to test us by our differences.

3) So in the mean time we should race towards what is good. Sure we will have differences; but let us focus on building up and not tearing down.

4) Ultimately Allah (swt) will settle our differences.

tbaba1234: You mean reference...

I can reference anything... What are his qualifications in the Islamic sciences? Arabic, Quran Hadith...

It is best to get views from someone who knows what he is talking about.

True^^..but sir, i still need you to make some explananation about this 73sects. especoally when the Quran says.

“Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but He intends to test you in what He has given you; so race to the good . To Allah is your return all together , and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ .” (Holy Qur’an 5:48 )

tbaba1234: The website you got this from is different from this person.

Yes, but it was his work

tbaba1234: That is a book written by a muslim hater apparently.

I dnt think so en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Chittick

tbaba1234: Those qualified to rate the hadiths rated them as Sahih.
What is the qualification of the owner of the website, you copied this from?
In Arabic, Hadith and Quranic sciences.

William C Chittik..

Chapter 3 ‘ The Ambiguity of the Qur’anic Command by William C Chittik page 65

tbaba1234: I. This is not your work.

Yes, it is not my work, but i found it relevent with the light of Quran

tbaba1234: Ii. [b] To try to cast doubts on hadiths [/b]is to cast doubt on the Quran itself because you cannot understand the Quran without the seerah and the same people who transmitted the Quran are the same that transmitted hadiths.

what if a particular hadith contradict the Quran?

tbaba1234: Iii. Seek knowledge..

Am still seeking, and am ready for it sir

tbaba1234: Mr man, stop this nonsense...

[quote author=tbaba1234]Are you now a Quranist?

No...and i will never be

tbaba1234: I beg you to see knowledge first and stop copying and pasting.

Knowledge is what i seek here, and i am ready for correction..

tbaba1234: Mr man, stop this nonsense...

Are you now a Quranist? I beg you to see knowledge first and stop copying and pasting.

I stand to be corrected sir..

Some will counter and say that the Holy Qur’an uses the word faction not always in negative light.

“And it is not for the believers to go forth all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group (firqa) to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.” ( Holy Qur’an 9:122 )

Just like the Holy Qur’an does not use the term Shi’a always in a negative light.

“And among his Shi’a was Abraham” ( Holy Qur’an 37:83 )

However, again I believe the point is taken.

The other issue with the text or ‘matn ‘ of this particular hadith is the obsession with the number 70 (plus). For example why are the Jews not 91 factions, and the Christians 92 factions and the Muslims 93 factions? Why this particular number?

I have a theory on why this is. I will give you collaborative evidence. This particular hadith was a wisdom saying that contained esoteric understanding of the number 70. Thus it was incorporated from another tradition that eventually became redacted onto the lips of the Blessed Messenger (saw).

I use the following as evidence:

“Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times – never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.” ( Holy Qur’an 9:80 )

“Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! (Holy Qur’an 69:32 )

“And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment.” (Holy Qur’an 7:155 )

One of the early Muslims mystics named, Hamdun Al Qassar has a saying that many people take as a hadith which says,

“If a friend among your friends errs, make seventy excuses for him. If your hearts are unable to do this, then know that the shortcoming is in your own selves.”
No doubt Hamdun had taken this from the Christians.

” Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy -seven times.” (Matthew 18:21-22 )

I could go on and on like this. But the point being is that it is taken figuratively. Namely that the Jews were divided, the Christians would be even more divided and the Muslims would be even more divided.

It doesn’t mean like many scholars that we have to now neurotically try and define and separate ourselves from anyone who differs from us.

[size=14pt] The Holy Qur’an gives amazing insights into differences [/size]

“Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but He intends to test you in what He has given you; so race to the good . To Allah is your return all together , and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ .” (Holy Qur’an 5:48 )

This one verse of the Holy Qur’an has four very powerful points.

1) If Allah (swt) he could have made us all one. This is in everything, from creed, to race, and so forth.

2) There is wisdom in not making us one in everything. Allah (swt) intends to test us by our differences.

3) So in the mean time we should race towards what is good. Sure we will have differences; but let us focus on building up and not tearing down.

4) Ultimately Allah (swt) will settle our differences.

That is the beauty of it here. We will all get a chance to stand before the glory of the Almighty! Rather or not we enter into paradise or we suffer in hell fire; at the very least each and everyone of us will be judged, case by case. Not as a collective or a group!

Allah (swt) draws this out further.

“The Jews say: “The Christians have nothing to stand upon; and the Christians say: “The Jews have nothing to stand upon.” Yet they both profess to study the same Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.” (Holy Qur’an 2:113 )

In other words it has never been the duty of a group of scholars to decide who is and who is not a believer!

“And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them . And those will have a great punishment.” (Holy Qur’an 3:105 )

In other words if something is not clear to someone or it is ambiguous or they are not convinced of a position than leave it to Allah (swt) to deal with them.

Allah (swt) is not saying that we cannot have differences or disagreements, but that we should mediate our differences.

“O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything , refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best way and best in result.” (Holy Qur’an 4:59 )

“And indeed this, your religion, is one religion , and I am your Lord, so fear Me. But the people divided their religion among them into sects – each faction, in what it has, rejoicing.” ( Holy Qur’an 23:52-53 )

“And We gave them clear proofs of the matter. And they did not differ except after knowledge had come to them – out of jealous animosity between themselves. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.” (Holy Qur’an 45:17 )

So it is knowledge that caused the people to become prideful. Where as the more we know the more we should realize how little we know.

“According to a well-known hadith “The disagreements of my community are a mercy.” (ikhtilaf ummati rahma). Whether or not this hadith is sound it is a positive light on a phenomena an that is familiar to every reader. Radical-not to speak of modern-Islamic literature: the Muslim community does not agree on much of anything. This is obvious in every field including-Qur’anic exegesis, hadith, jurisprudence, kalam (dogmatic theology), Sufism, philosophy, ethics and so on. One of the many issues that scholars disagree on is how exactly to understand the disagreement. Certain approaches to Islamic teachings find it offensive and try to do away, some times by claiming elusive validity for one position by citing the hadith, “My community will divide into seventy-two sects and all but one will enter the Fire.” Other approaches are more inclined to acknowledge the disagreements as a result of divine wisdom, and compassion. They may cite the hadith in the version that says, “My community will divine into seventy three sects all but one the zindiqs will enter the Garden . “

( source: “Both hadiths are cited as sound (sahih) by the eleventh century scholar Al Al-Isfhanai Al Dhari’a ila makarim al-sharia. ed. T.’Abd al-Rauf Sa’d (Cairo Maktabat Al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya, 1972) ( there is no agreement on the identity of the zindiqs ) . No doubt the second hadith is quoted much less than the first, but my point is simply that well-known scholars do in fact cite it.”)

Now, did you not realize there is a narration that states:

“My community will divine into seventy three sects all but one the zindiqs will enter the Garden”

Why is this narration not more widely known among the Muslims? Maybe its easier to cast everyone into hell who doesn’t agree with your narrow definition of Islam, than it is easier to pin point ‘a particular sect‘ as being ‘the ‘ deviant group.

I am sure this particular narration would be a real game changer in the Muslim community if it were circulated more often.

So now let us juxtapose the two narrations together:

Version 1) “My community will divine into seventy three sects all but one the zindiqs will enter the Garden”

Version 2) “My community will divide into seventy-two sects and all but one will enter the Fire.”

Now no matter how you try and spin it, these is a contradict plain, pure and simple.

Now you can imagine what the various Muslims factions have tried to do over time. Those that uphold the authority of version 2, or propagate it in deference to version 1 what do you think they do? They try and connect themselves to other versions of the same hadith.

Namely the following:

It was reported from Awf ibn Malik who said: the Blessed Messenger (saw) said:

“The Jews were divided into seventy-one sects, one of which is in Paradise and seventy are in the Fire. The Christians were divided into seventy-two sects , seventy-one of which are in the Fire and one is in Paradise. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, my Ummah will be divided into seventy-three sects , one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two will be in the Fire.” It was said, O Messenger of Allah, who are they? He said, “Al-Jama’ah” (Sunan Ibn Majah, no. 3982 )

Now there are a couple variations of this particular archetype.

Yet there are a lot of peculiar issues regarding this particular narration.

The term ‘al jama’ah or translated as ‘ the group‘ is very ambiguous.

This is why in other traditions the ambiguity is helped along, or patched over by the added ascription of ‘me and my companions ‘.

It is noteworthy that one of the companions Muaviyah ibn Abu Sufyan who fought a bitter sectarian war with another companion Ali Ibn Abu Talib is also a transmitter of the ‘73 sects ‘ hadith. He (Muaviyah) interestingly does not narrate the added ascription of "that which me and my companions are upon.‘ Obviously we know the reasons why it would make sense to ascribe this particular wording through the medium of Muaviyah.

So it is not very helpful assuming that the Blessed Messenger (saw) ever made such a statement to leave such an important point so ambiguous.

The other issue is the fact that the none of the scholars of any sect could name for us the following:

1) The names of the 71 Jewish sects.

2) The names of the 72 Christian sects.

3) Agreed upon list as to the 73 Muslims sects.

Number 3 would end up being duplicitous in nature. You can imagine every group that believes in such narrations rushing to make claims of being the ‘one sect‘.

Not to mention the following:

“ Verily those who split up their religion and became sects , you have absolutely nothing to do with them.” (Holy Qur’an 6:159 )

How strange it would be indeed for the Blessed Messenger (saw) warning Muslims to not become factions and than saying in the same sentence, unless your the ‘correct faction ‘ !

Josilver: If you don't know wetin him the sing, that means you don't listen to music or properly deaf.

Don't live with so much hate.

Sh*t up

i will reply the ignorant op as soon as i gain access to my laptop

jerk: pls can a Muslim confirm ths for us,am curious bcus if it happens to be true, then d world is in trouble. Even ur Muslim neighbour can kill u.

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death,whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents,father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

jerk: pls can a Muslim confirm ths for us,am curious bcus if it happens to be true, then d world is in trouble. Even ur Muslim neighbour can kill u.

CONFIRM THESE ONES FIRST

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Macelliot: You are entitled to you own opinion!
No more Fruitless arguement.... What has happen has happened....
The End will justify the Means......
Have a nice day. Bye!

After when you don derail the thread

Anyway the analysis will be updated very soon

opisco01: 2nd to comment . Congratz 2baba

open ya eyes

den don beat u to it

Wetin e dey sing sef

Later

FrancisTony: I'll be back for your crap @Rilwayne.

With tales between your legs...the same way you are comin back to the thread about the analysis on the crucifixtion of jesus

malvisguy212: defend the op nah, why you they make noise?

Charity begins at home they say,solve those inconsistencies in the bible before pokenosing into other people's affairs.Is Bible God's words?