₦airaland Forum

One other thing genetic projects have done is to completely destroy the idea that "race" exists

There could be bigger differences between two people of a so called "race" that between two people of different "races"

If you have paid attention to recent genetic projects you would understand that their is actually no such thing like a "black" race and terms like "black" "white" etc are just ambigous trash we should not even be paying attention to

[quote author=☻ajali☺ link=topic=570584.msg7364609#msg7364609 date=1292715417]Sorry, but this is not true.
Do you know about the international HAPMAP project?
A project about the genes of humans around the world in which
the university of Ibadan is a part of it?
99,9% of our genes we all have in common. Africans, Europeans, Asians, Americans, Australians, simply everybody on this earth and the remaining 0,1% are different because of climate, environment  and thereof resultant different living conditions.
And when we think of the fact that the cradle of Humankind lies in Africa what else should we expect?[/quote]What I said is 100% current.

Humans are related 99.9% but in relation to this topic that is not relevant. Ive studiied the Human Genome project and other genetic projects extensively

This issue is about Berbers and I was pointing out the fact that they are the indiginous people of North Africa. I was clearly dispeling a lie propagated by some people

Lets stick to the topic at hand

Im soooooooooooooo pissed

@Dayo

Italy is losing one spot because of Uefa Cup. Italian teams dont really care to do well in it and German teams do well in it and it has the same co-efficients as Champions league

In the champions league Italy is far better than Germany. Infact Germany has had only one Semi-Finalist in 8 years. Italy have been champions in 2 of the last 4 years

buzugee:
yeah its best you stop because you are confusing yourself. any specie that can inter-breed will have the same genetic markers. so the genetic markers of europeans, asians and berbers are definitely indigenous to africa. now their may be a variation in how the C G T A U is arranged due to the different mutations brought on by acclamitizing to the different conditions they encountered in their dispersed new locations, but they are still the same genetic markers. its like comparing suya to pepper soup to fried meat. they differ due to their altered state but they are all made from the same meat

You obviously dont know anything about haplogroups or genetics. They are population specific and the haplogroup of all Africans including white North Africans is similar to each other and indiginous to Africa but different from Europeans, Asians, Australasians etc and has nothing to do with interbreeding.

I see I am actually wasting my time though with somebody who does not know what he is talking about.

Adios

buzugee:
what i know is that all human beings have the same genetic markers. does not matter what color your skin or hair is. that is why we can mate with each other and produce offsprings. this is why we cannot mate with dogs and have offsprings. because dogs have different genetic markers. so yes the topic of race is man-made but like i said i am simply going by todays definitions. now if i was having an argument with you about how all humans are the same ? then i suspect we will be on the same side but the topic of this thread is 'when black africans ruled in europe' hence i artificially create a demarcation based on the superficial (color )

But you cant do that if you want to engage in a factual discussion unless we just want to just waste our time engaging in fantasy and delusions. If we are going to tell the story of a place like North Africa we need to stick with facts.

The genetic markers of Europeans and Asians are NOT indiginous to the African continent.

White Berbers on the other hand are. Stop trying to suggest that white Berbers being indiginous to Africa is similar to Chinese or Europeans because it is factually incorrect

It is more correct to say that white Berbers are indiginous as Igbos or Yorubas are

Im tired of repeating myself so il just stop

buzugee:
bruv, all those gene markers all trace back to the black race so this your point is mute. european haplogroups and genetic markers all trace back to africa as do berbers

Nah Bruv

All humans are related but my point remains that the Berbers are as African as anybody else. the reason for raising the issue of Haplotypes and genetic markers is to show you that irrespective of their "white" skin, they are as African as you and me and indigines of our continent.

There are groups on earth that share our "hair" and "skin colour" but are not even really related to Africans. They are the most genetically distant from Africans

@Buzu

If I might ask you this

Do you know anything about genetic distances among so called "black" Africans?

Do you know that dark skin and kinky hair are not an indication of beign related to so called "black" Africans?

I have a feeling you dont. You have been trying to conflate a recent social construct like "race" with biology and genetics

There is no such thing as a "black"African in genetics. Did you know that?

buzugee:
i never mentioned anything about berbers. all i am telling you is that north africa was black for tens of thousands of years while the other continents had drifted away. the place was ALL black. further down the line when the initial africans had mutated in their respective locations ? then they came back to north africa because of its proximity to the breaking point of gondwanaland. so now you have people with different colors coming back to join the black people who live there. ya dig ? that make enough sense for ya ?

But there is this small stubborn thing called facts, Its very stubborn

If Berbers were European descendants, they would reflect European gene markers.

But as it stands, their haplogroup and genetic markers are all indiginous to Africa

The bad thing about facts is that you can flog it all day or even ignore it but it would remain-------:fact!

Facts are a stubborn child. Problem child infact

@Buzu

Irrespective of our personal feelings, facts remain facts and we can not ignore facts when it does not suit our personal agenda.

The whole concept of "race" as you know it now is actually very recent

I think you are putting too much emphasis on tems like "white", "black"

But feelings and perceptions are not substitutes for concrete facts.

Facts are not dependent on North Africans chosing to identify as "Arabs" nor is it dependent on what we feel about a so-called "black" label

Genetics and biology tell their own concrete story and there is no such thing as a "Black" man genetically speaking, neither is their a "white" man

Now if you are making a social argument, then thats different

buzugee:
biological fact ?? you are truly a comedian. where you personally present when the genetic markers were being analyzed ? or was it a bunch of white people with their own agenda ? fugazy negros like you stay subjugated.

believe it or not, humanity originated in africa. it was a huge land mass called gondwanaland. then due to erosion and attrition, gondwanaland started to crack up and drift into different pieces which then formed the different continents. all the africans then physically changed and adapted to their new environments over tens of thousands of years. a mutation, if you will. those who remained in africa did not mutate because that was the initial starting point. so whomever came back afterwards was already a different person. now dont get me wrong, i will love for the world to subscribe to the fact that we are all africans and all one, but unfortunately the world does not work like that and hence i have to fall in line with the rest of the prejudiced world. and therefore africa is originally black. ya dig ? that make sense enough for ya ?

Negro? . What is a 'Negro' if I might ask? . Is that some label you gave yourself or is that a label some "white" man with 'an agenda" gave you?

Where you not the one just saying that Berbers are descendants of the Berber slave trade

You dont know what you are talking about

People should stop putting emphasis on terms like "black", "white" etc. Modern science has exposed those terms as complete trash

There is no such thing as a "black" African in reality and like I said before and would say for the 100th time, skin colour does NOT indicate if you are connected to Africans at all.

You can have "white" skin and be an indiginous African and you can have dark skin and kinky hair and have no genetic connection to Africans at all

[b]The above is proven scientific fact

Does anybody want to challenge the above?/b][i][/i]

I deal with scientific facts not wishful thinking from write ups of fraudsters

buzugee:
whether you choose to accept the fact or ignore it does not change the fact that it is true
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNE6BAmN4b8&feature=related keep being a victim of an indoctrination perpetrated to malign your humanity. thats your funeral.

Stop listening to trash and accept pure concrete biological fact

All these silly people who start nonsense like Africa is for "black" Africans are verry funny

The term "black" is a meaningless term imposed by foreigners. There is no such thing like a "Black" African biologically

Genetics has a final say on this issue not some phoney fraudsters who dont know what they are talking about



I bet these fraudsters probably dont realize that not only are white skinned Berbers African indigines (as genetics has shown) but also that having dark skin and kinky hair does not mean you have anything whatsoever to do with Africa. I bet even you yourself have no idea. Somebody can have dark skin and kinky hair and not be genetically related to Africans and the white North Africans, despite their skin colour share indiginous African genetic markers

buzugee:
africa is indigenous to black africans. any other race you see in africa today is a result of invasion of slavery. why is that so hard to believe ? http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Africa   

stop buying into western indoctrination of trying to seperate north africa from 'black' africa because they cannot for the life of them fathom how the sphinx and all other huge developments in north africa came about when they were still in the caucus caves acting like savages. read books by african historians like cheik diop and george G M james. stop being a victim of white indoctrination

Dude you are talking trash.

You dont know anything about genetics, humanity or North Africa for that matter

There is no such thing like "black" or "white" in genetics. Learn about what you are talking about before you keep propagating falsehood. There is no such thing like a "black" African genetically or biologically speaking and having "white" skin is not an indication of not being an indigene of the African continent

The primary reason I hate people who propagate lies like these is that it paints a false picture and creates false narratives and does not care about facts. The residents of North Africa have genetic markers that are indigenous to the African continent





Having dark skin and kinky hair does not mean you have anything to do with Africa either

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363794#msg7363794 date=1292707428]sage,

Some Berbers did have European slaves. The Barbary Pirates were well known to be the scourge of the Mediterranean

The Barbary Coast, which extends from Morocco through modern Libya, was home to a large slaving industry from about 1500 to 1800. The great slaving capitals were Salé in Morocco, Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli, and for most of this period, European navies were too weak to put up resistance to these well armed navies from the North African coast.

Even the U.S. Marine anthem talks about going to North Africa and fighting the menace of slavery.  The line "To the shores of Tripoli" refers to the First Barbary War, and specifically the Battle of Derne in 1805. The Americans went to war against the Barbary states, because American merchant ships were being attacked and the people sold into slavery in North Africa.[/quote]Many people today dont know that Millions of Europeans were slaves on the African continent and sold in slave house auctions. berbers used to raid European villages from Spain to Ireland and cart away men, women and children as slaves and also sold some into slavery in the Middle East.


But what i dont understand is why somebody would think North Africans are descendants of that slave trade in the middle ages. Thats completely insane

North Africans are indigines of Africa and genetic studies prove that

In reality there is actually no such thing as a "black" man biologically speaking neither is their a "white" man

I reject European attempts to divide this continent into "Sub-Saharan" whatever

"Race" is a complete social construct. the same European who is trying to seperate the "white" Berbers from the rest of Africans is the same person who would have no problems whatsoever telling somebody that is 75% Irish genetically that he is "black but would also call a Berber, who is genetically African "white"

Pls let us keep Egypt out of this debate

This issue is dealing with Berber raids into Europe not Egypt


Im Shocked that some people dont know that White Berbers share the indigenous African haplotype as other Africans


Some people actually think they are descendants of European slaves Incredible

Berbers had European slaves (they enslaved about 1.5 million of them and emptied European villages)

But my problem is that some people think that white Berbers are a result of European slaves?


Jesus Christ

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363691#msg7363691 date=1292706346]My brother, I am really enjoying this debate. This type of discussion is what Nairaland needs. Not the usual filth that pollute this discussion board. I am not stuck on the term "Black Africa," North Africa, Nubians etc. I see Africa as one continuous continent. I am a Pan-Africanist of the highest order. My belief is to give praise to all African cultures, no matter where they are located on the continent.

If Europeans as far as Norway can give praise to Ancient Greece and Rome, then I should be able to give praise to our ancient kingdoms. Don't you think I should have the ability to do so?

Africa for far too long has been separated by Europeans. I do not believe in this "Sub-Saharan" African term. I believe in one united continent. I also dislike, how many North Africans see themselves not as Africans, but as Arabs. These people have been brainwashed into hating their African roots. Not all of them are Arabs, they are of Berber descent. The true indigenous people of North Africa.[/quote]Nwanne I agree 100 percent

There is no such thing like "Sub-saharan" Africa. We are all Africans including the ones in the North. Europeans brought that division

Where did people get this idea that White berbers are descendants of European slaves from?

Berber genetics is very different from that of Europeans. People just read crap and regurgitate it


White Africans are just as African as the rest.



Nature does not observe colour lines. North African genetics tells its own story. They have very little European admixture and do not share European Haplotypes. Their haplotype is indigenous to the African continent

buzugee:
you are lacking in history knowledge bruh. what you see in north africa today is a combination of white slaves, black masters and arab invasion from the north. plain and simple. pick up a book sir and do your research

Falsehood into 1,000,000 places

This is a lie of epic proportions


White Berbers share the same E Haplotype as other  Africans are are joined to other Africans as part of PN2 cluster

The North Africans are NOT Europeans at all genetically

buzugee:
i think you need to go through those links i posted. the white north africans are not indigenous to africa.

YES they are. Their genetics tell its own story. The white North Africans are very very indiginous to Africa.




N/B

For your sanity keep away from forums like topix. A lot of crazies there

buzugee:
anyone who has time has to go through this thread. it is extremely enlightening. look out for the user NOBI. he is extremely intelligent. the most intelligent person i have come across http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/T7MBFVN8633AINMUL

also read this http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/30/009.html

Your assertion that Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria were "black" countries is falsehood. "White" North Africans are African indigines

Why do people think that the word Africa = "black"

there is actually no such thing as a "black" race or "white" race either. Both terms are socially constructed nonsense that cropped up recently


The ancient world was not stuck on race and neither was their solidarity by "race"

A half "black" king of Ancient Morrocco would always consider "white" Berbers his people ahead of anybody from ancient Congo or Kenya


It would be very misleading to suggest that because the ancient rulers of "white" berbers might be half Tuareg, Zenaga etc, that it is a sign of when "our people" ruled Morrocco

That would be an outright propagation of falsehood

My points are as follows

It is completely correct to say that when Berbers raided Europe, Berbers from the various hues participated in it including the dark ones.

Its completely correct to say that dark Berbers were also part of those who enslaved Europeans by the millions and sold them off in slave houses in North Africa

It is completely correct to say that darker skinned Berbers have been kings and administrators over lighter skinned ones (ie the "white" ones)



However it is outright falsehood to suggest that some "white" people stole North Africa from your "people". The "White " North Africans are indiginous to that area. They are Africans regardless of their light(white) skin colour.

It is misleading to put up titles like the one on this thread. It futhers falsehood of epic proportions

@Ochi

You completely correct in your assertions.The Berbers range from very light to dark. My point is that "race" is a mordern day assertion so are terms like "black" and "white". They are very deceptive term when you try to use them to describe an Ancient society. Berbers used to intermarry with each other so a lot of the "white" Berber societies like Ancient Morrocco actually had many many "black" Kings

The problem is that when a male Royal who is a Riff marries a fellow Berber like a Tuareg lady, their son would become king over Riffs in that society. It would be misleading for a Nigerian to say that it is his "People" who ruled Morrocco however because that half="black" King would see Riffs as his people ahead of say Igbos for example. He would identify with the "white" Riffs ahead of Zuus in S/A


SO you are completely correct in what you are sayino

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363326#msg7363326 date=1292703094]True, but we are discussing when Africans ruled Europe. Maybe the "Black" should be taken out of the subject, because it can be misleading.

Would you be ok with "When Africans Ruled in Europe?"

The fact in the matter is that there were "Black" Africans in Spain. People cannot deny that. They were not slaves, they were warriors and administrators. Not all of them were "Black" in the sense, but there were still present.

How come the word "Moor" in Europe has been synonymous with black? Even the ancient European travelers who went to North Africa, described some Africans as having dark wooly hair and skin that looked like bronze.

Race is a social construct and more of a modern day phenomenon. It can be traced to Charles Darwin. The ancients were not stuck on race.[/quote]very very very true.

I

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363289#msg7363289 date=1292702789]Even though North Africa is considered Arab by many, most of these people actually of Berber descent. They just cannot speak the Berber languages, because the Arab language is very dominant. And you are often stigmatized for being a Berber. But, the Berbers are native to this region.

Here is a modern day map of the Berber languages that are spoken now in North Africa.[/quote]You are 100% correct

Il soon type up my response to you in a few minutes. I was attacking the headline of this thread which is misleading

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363231#msg7363231 date=1292702095]There are other Berber groups that can be considered "black." I am ready for this debate my brother. The Zenaga/Sanhaja tribe is a Berber tribe of southern Morocco, Mauritania and Senegal.

Here are some pictures of one of them:[/quote]The Zenaga too. My point is that uninformed Americans who propagate nonsense about North Africa dont have any idea what they are talking about.

Indigenous people of North Africa range from Riffs to Tuaregs in the Sahel.

The Riffs can be called "white" and the Zenaga "black" but the reality is that when a Zenaga joins a Riff to raid Europe, he is in the company of his people ie his fellow Berbers.

it doesnt mean that their "people" ruled Europe

The problem with this issue is that the Americans who especially like to propagate this nonsense go around looking for anybody that they think "has any black" in them and claim that the person is one of "them" ie their people.

The reality is that the average Tuareg past or present is not similar to a black American in any way imaginable. Neither Egyptians both past and present

The terms "white", "Black" are totally deceptive terms

[quote author=Ochi_Agha link=topic=570584.msg7363197#msg7363197 date=1292701729]sage,

You are correct in some instances and wrong in others. There are "Black" Berbers living in North Africa. And the Moors who conquered Spain did have "Black" Moors amongst them.

I shall provide you with a picture of a Moorish chief. What color does he look like?[/quote]Tuaregs are one Berber ethnicity you can classify as "black" so he could easily be a Tuareg Berber

Examples of Berbers include people like Zidane and Affely

North African ethnicities include Shilha, Kabyle, Shawiya, Riffs etc

Those people are indiginous to those areas

Nobody "stole" Egypt from anybody. Egyptians past and present are not similar in any way on earth to black  Americans who love to propagate this kind of trash neither are they similar in anyway to a Nigerian.


People love to peddle falsehood and its annoying


People from ancient places below the Sahara never ruled Europe.

North Africans enslaved Europeans by the millions and sold them in slave houses also

The ignorance on this thread is appalling

Let me set a few things straight


"White" Berbers are indigenous to North Africa. They enslaved Europeans.

Moor does NOT equal "Sub-Saharan" (I dont get where people got that nonsense from. Pathetic American rubbish)

People from Sub-Saharan Africa did not rule Europe

The Berbers of North Africa did and they also owned European slaves

Look up the ethnic groups of North Africa like Kabyles, Riffs,


North Africa was never "black" (Infact what does the terms "white", "black" mean sef)

The ethnic groups that reside in North Africa are indigines of that place

Vieira:
We are schooling Barca no problem.

When you are used to rolling with the big boys like Arsenal is, then you'll understand that we fear no one.

Ordinary AC Milan and all we can hear from N5 is crying and gnashing of the teeth.

yeye spuds.

Vieira you still dey around? You dont see many of the old Nairaland crew around anymore

anyways Milan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arsenal in all generations past, present and future

Forza Milan against Roma tommorrow

We must not falter or fail in this particular game otherwise our title surge will be in jeopardy.


Thankfully the winterbreak gives us time to recover Silva. One of the best defenders in the world now. We need him like we need air