₦airaland Forum

WHAT THE HELL

Thoniameek:
I saw a thread by seun calling on his fellow Nigerian atheist to become outspoken.... I mean not just here on nairaland anymore but out there to Nigerians. And all I could think of is 'disciples'.

What an average Nigerian need is proper education not hopelessness in form of atheism

Try to imagine the majority illiterate Nigerians having the mentality of most of the atheist on here, and imagine what state Nigeria will be in - I laugh in China. They make it seem like atheism is one savior the whorld needs.

As if atheism makes everything better

As if atheism brings peace

As if atheism helps me love better

As if atheism makes me blind to the flaws of others

And as if atheism makes wiser..... They should tell that to the lot of illiterate Nigerians (Not my great grandma that have been a witch and been dilivered and seen the power of God work)

Goodluck to telling the witches in edo state that

My sister God bless you

https://67.media.tumblr.com/4ea66072d369bbe68d8d324ec5809baa/tumblr_inline_miwyco2QHF1qz4rgp.gif

IamLEGEND1:
We suppose check the guy well.
Na so Kanayo O Kanayo candle setup dey be for film. maybe na him uncle.

Hahahaha!! guy I nearly choked on water now, na so you for murder me just like that!

OP but imagine an awkward situation where your babe suddenly walked in on you lighting candles on the floor with a serious face...

I created this monster of a text cos I don't like to prolong arguments. I even anticipated possible future questions and added more details, just in case. Hopefully this reduces the length of the debate. Reply whenever you can
(if you can).

johnydon22:
Hhmmmm really? that sounds curious.

Please mention these studies in quantum physics that is about continious consciousness after death?

Example...
From Dr. Robert Lanza, (expert in regenerative medicine and scientific director of Advanced Cell Technology Company + voted 3rd most important scientist alive), who's also involved with physics, quantum mechanics and astrophysics:
Basically...
"Our brains are just receivers and amplifiers for the proto-consciousness that is intrinsic to the fabric of space-time." ergo... "If the body receives consciousness in the same way that a cable box receives satellite signals, then of course consciousness does not end at the death of the physical vehicle."

I'd advice you to read a more detailed version if you're actually interested

You'd see other points like Dr. Hameroff's explanation of life after death, "intelligence existed prior to matter", "conciousness exists even outside the constraints of time and space" (God?), etc and other interesting concepts.

You can also read on Professor Hans-Peter Dürr's contribution (former head of the Max Planck Institute for Physics in Munich), and other scientists who support this - all referring a higher dimension we move to after death in one form or another.

Simply searching "Quantum Physics Afterlife" on Google might've done my job sef.

Btw, these scientists are experts in their respective fields and they have already-established scientific grounds and studies to stand on.

johnydon22:
Philosophy is boundless and unlimited and can through mind speculations derive any idea - it is not a determinant of objective reality.

You misunderstand my point; the bolded part was not my point.

Philosophy is an academic discipline that seeks truth through reasoning rather than empiricism. Note: rationality is a key concept of philosophy.

Your question was "Is it rational to believe in an afterlife?". It is its rationality that is in question here, and I was simply saying that there's a number of philosophical theories that support it; I was staying on topic.

johnydon22:
This is untrue and this is not a FACT.

No human study have ever being able to severe consciousness from the neurological networks.

For the sake of the discussion lets ask : Please how did you arrive at the conclusion? [possibly i'm sure NDE's - i will address that]

Ironically, no human study has ever been able to link consciousness solely to the neurological networks.

The study of NDEs however, have managed to severe them (contrary to your statement). Yes, NDEs are a factor to how I arrived, other factors include my statement above this one ("Ironically...networks" ), my beliefs, reports of paranormal activities related to this etc.

If you planned on addressing NDEs, I'd preferred you just went ahead and did that, instead of waiting for me; like see how long it took me to see your post and reply it; it'd be better if I saw what you planned on saying.

johnydon22:
consciousness is a process, so if you take away this human form.

tell me in what form a consciousness manifests, in what way? does it become s a formless needless conscious nothingness?

Lol a process created by what exactly? The brain? I beg to differ
Citing...

The question, "How does the brain create consciousness?" originally appeared on Quora

Answer by Yohan John , Ph.D in Cognitive and Neural Systems, on Quora:
Does the brain create consciousness? I’m not so sure. At the very least, I know that no neuroscientist has caught the brain “red-handed” in the act of creating consciousness.

(+ Recall my very first quote in this post)

(continued...) The standard materialist position is that consciousness is tied up with the brain. There is plenty of evidence that the brain influences consciousness (and vice versa! ), ranging from studies of brain damage to the well-known effects of mind-altering chemicals.

To your question..."in what form?" Consciousness is immaterial.

johnydon22:
There have not being any established study that says consciousness is independent of the body - As long as the brain is still getting even a little oxygen any illusionary projection is possible.

False; the brain requires about 20 - 25% of all oxygen used by the body to stay conscious. Anything lower than that by a moderate margin leads to brain hypoxia and may cause illusionary projections - "may" because hallucination isn't even a major symptom of brain hypoxia. Now anything lower by a far margin is a severely comatose state, and that person is just at the door step of "brain death" - can as well be declared clinically dead. Whatever little amount of oxygen present is not enough for the brain to function at this stage. The brain system required to have a dream/illusionary projection are in fact the same systems required when you're awake; none of that is possible at this stage.

So "even a little oxygen" (as you said) is not significant enough to cause an illusion.

Most authentic NDE reports involved people who were reported to have been revived from a clinically dead state. I posted a good case on the first page. And have you ever wondered why people's NDEs are seeing virtually the same thing? Even atheists who claimed not to believe in God and religion, why are they seeing an afterlife that they don't believe in during their NDEs?

I also read of an experiment by a Russian scientist, Konstantin Korotkov, [s]using GDV technology to spot some form of "life energy" leaving the body of dead people. He found out that the aura from those who died peacefully was different from that of those who died violently and confused. Note the connection between this "aura/energy" and their consciousness before they died...?[/s] (instead of this layman's summary, how about a link to his original study)

BTW, What exactly do you regard as an "established study"? Is it what we were taught in history and science classes? Is it the scientific knowledge that we grew up with? Credible and legitimate studies and research are being carried out every year. Are we now going to ignore their findings?

You'd be surprised how much knowledge we grew up with have been replaced or debunked by new facts: from even menial subjects (do you know that the map of the tongue's taste buds is wrong?) to new discoveries (more evidence of dinosaurs coexisting with man), historical discoveries (historical evidence of Biblical characters etc) and even some corrections made to our history records. I read that Science News refused to publish some of these discoveries. Many of these new things don't receive publicity; a lot of notable people, nations, sects etc have garnered political and academic authority through past "established studies" - imagine the power shift if the whole world were to learn of new discoveries as widely as those old ones were learnt...but I digress...another topic altogether

johnydon22:
It doesn't, theories of parallel and multiverses even though mathematical speculatons can only be proof of themselves if confirmed not an afterlife

so let's stretch this again: Please how does a multiverse theory support an afterlife?

Again, you misunderstand my point...I wasn't saying "multiverse proves afterlife". I meant that the theory of the multiverse (and other theories I mentioned there) is a plausible and rational theory. Therefore it won't be far-fetched to have the thought of an afterlife environment that would accommodate the soul. In other words, it won't be irrational to believe in an afterlife.

johnydon22:
They are curious audacious and brilliant thoughts but seem more so like incorrect affiliations.

@the first bolded - I.e. they are rational...now you see what I'm saying?

@the second bolded - That phrase shows you are speaking from your perspective, good thing you didn't completely rule them out cos that would be dogmatic. There are some experts who would defend those theories with their lives.

johnydon22:
"Like multiverse proves afterlife" even though a multiverse has not been proven yet, i wonder how it can prove something else when the hypothesis itself is unproven.

if a multiverse is confirmed it can only proof of itself which in fact is a physical value [not metaphysical as you implied thoughts would exist solo]

Metaphysics is the study of a supersensual (beyond our senses) realm or of phenomena which transcend the physical world (transcend our physical laws).

I've already settled the red part; I wasn't saying that. Or was I? If there's a realm within ours that accommodates phenomena (such as the soul) that is supersensual and is beyond the physics that we know, can we call that a multiverse?

And if we can call my description above a multiverse, can't we call that a "metaphysical multiverse"? (because it's beyond our senses and transcend our physics)
Therefore proof of such "multiverse" would be proof of itself (as you stated)...right?

johnydon22:
Nice direction this conclusion is derived.

Exactly...so before you place emphasis on anything else, remember this is the crux of the topic; the crux of my entire post.
Before you say something is irrational, it should be without reason, absurd and nonsensical with no ground to stand on. Now whether we eventually reach a consensus or not, from your posts, I've seen that you've acknowledged the presence of reasoning in some points used to defend the belief in an afterlife..now will you still say it is irrational?

johnydon22:
All 3,500,000,000 may not necessarily be lying but all can be mistaken, just because everyone believes something does not make it true.

Have you ever thought of the possibility where someone who believed he could scientifically explain what he saw was also mistaken? It happens...there are things we previously thought to be scientific facts that were later debunked to end up being something else [which is also scientific], or end up being unexplainable.

I have some Muslim friends who tell me about cases of evil genes (dunno spelling) temporarily possessing people. I heard of a scene where a scrawny adolescent boy [who was possessed] flipped his entire bed upside down, a short [possessed] Muslim girl beat up a man 4x her size etc. I laughed at those at first until I heard of very similar cases from non-muslim sources. Now your easiest escape route is to tell me that they were ALL lying, or that it was just a rare medical condition that gives people super strength for a limited time, but has a side effect of madness.

I have also seen weird things in church (lol you should know what I'm referring to), and have heard of unexplainable miracles; people being healed of life-threatening or permanent illnesses in sudden ways that left doctors puzzled, people's prayers being answered in very specific ways (now how do you even expect them to prove this to anybody?) etc.

Other abnormal reports too from traditionalists and people of other religions, and even people who don't necessarily have a religion (visit subreddits like r/nosleep and r/letsnotmeet on Reddit where people go to report weird and scary stuff. If you try to point out that their stories are false, you could even get banned) ...etc etc etc.

Anyway, out of this 3,500,000,000 yes some reports could be lies, some hallucinations, some mistaken or misinformed, but if you want to say that not one..not even one..could be authentic, you would be making a very strong claim, and I may end up stonewalling you.

Btw, just one authentic claim is sufficient enough in proving a supernatural realm. Have that in mind.

johnydon22:
Rathe mysteries are just things waiting to be known - why not vy to find out these mysteries and not explain them with a dose of superstition...

Labeling every paranormal report as superstition is also just as bad as how you see people who explain mysteries with "a dose of superstition". Why not vie to find the connection between science and supernatural stuff, or at least find out to what extent there is a connection, instead of labeling it as mere superstition? The moment you discard something as downright impossible, you are creating a limit for discoveries. This is why I appreciate those scientists who delve into the study of metaphysics, as well as those who were involved in experimenting NDEs to inquire into knowledge for our sakes.

Discarding all reports of supernatural/paranormal nature to be downright impossible is wrong IMO. It would be better to regard them as "physically impossible" or "scientifically impossible" for now.

johnydon22 no vex, I saw you guys' mentions very late; there is a certain problem attached to my username at times...

I'll reply you soon

youngestland:
taaa please stop it how can you say half of the people on earth have experience supernatural event
please lets use nairaland as a yardstick out of 1 million only about 100,000 has experience that abeg

Considering that about 84% of the world's population is religious, half of the people on earth is even a small fraction. I just used that for the sake of a peaceful debate, and yet you bring this folly...

Among these 84% of the 7 billion on earth, many have claimed to have had supernatural/paranormal experiences, many others have heard from others who have had such experiences, and many have even witnessed them.

Why should we use Nairaland as a yardstick? Nairaland with about 1.6million members (not to mention those our brothers who have like 10 accounts sef) is barely even 1% of Nigeria's population, so what is that going to prove here?

Plus why scoff at something so plausible that is backed up with statistics? Where did you get 100,000 out of 1 million from? Why should I listen to you??

winner01, KingEbukasBlog, 4everGod, felixomor...

Na like this una don slap all the evolutionists in this thread

https://i.imgur.com/8eQqot7.gif

Reyginus:
Does evolution really exist?

Nice question. I'm still wondering why evolution [as it is taught] suddenly decided to pause the moment cameras were invented for us to keep pictorial records of organisms evolving. But I digress

johnydon22 I posted on the first page of this topic sha, you probably didn't see it cos I booked space then replied late. I've posted my answer on the belief being rational and the reason for my answer

(@johnydon22 I was late but I booked space earlier)

It is rational to believe in an afterlife.

*Studies have shown that even Quantum Physics proves that our consciousness continues after our physical body dies. A lot of quantum physicists support this.

*There are even philosophical theories that entail that this universe is some sort of "virtual reality"...all for plausible reasons.

*Consciousness exists outside our body..so far that is fact

Whichever form that our consciousness continues to exist is obviously a different manifestation of energy (soul) from that of the body, since it is functioning beyond the brain that we attribute it to. And whatever realm/dimension is accommodating this our "manifestation of energy" to exist is clearly metaphysical because it is beyond physics as we know it; being able to work independent from the body.

And the thought of a different dimension/realm/universe existing within ours that works different from our laws of physics is not too far-fetched. We have theories of multiverses, theories of events from alternate universes affecting our own in one way or another, research/studies (fact) that prove our consciousness is beyond our physical body etc.

Before anyone turns my statements to another argument entirely, I am just addressing the question of the belief in an afterlife being rational or not.

As long as something is backed up with reasoning, is logically sound and not totally absurd, then it is rational. And my reason for pointing out my aforementioned points is that they were backed up with logic, facts, research and reasoning. Therefore the belief in an afterlife is rational

We live in a world where strange and unexplainable things have happened throughout the course of history. Many people have reported very specific ghost sightings, miracles and other paranormal activities. Now there are about 7 billion people in this world, lemme even be generous to the skeptics and say only about half of the world's population (about 3,500,000,000 people) have claimed to have witnessed something supernatural of some sort, it would be very absurd to believe that ALL 3,500,000,000 people were lying or hallucinating.

Seun:
Inasmuch as there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of an afterlife, it's certainly irrational to believe such. Near death experiences are just hallucinations...

First I'd point out that you are wrong.

See the case of Pam Reynolds:

This near death research confirms that the mind can think independently from the body. In 1991, the 35 year-old Pam Reynolds underwent a brain operation. Her blood was routed from her brain and she was placed in a state of artificial coma. Her head was attached with wires to measure brain waves. It was ascertained that no brain waves could travel during this half an hour. The thought processes were blocked, and examined as no hormone release could occur. Hallucinations were not possible in this state.

Pam Reynolds claimed to have had an out-of-body experience, she even observed and reported some details of her operation correctly. According to her, she met her deceased grandmother and other people who had "positive energy", and they strengthened her so that she could go through her operation successfully.

The special aspect of Pam Reynolds' case lies with the fact that modern measurement equipment shows that the consciousness of a person exists even when the stuff of the brain is shut off. This leads one to conclude that there must be an independent consciousness separate from the body. The body and soul are two different manifestations of energy. The case of Pam Reynolds was tested with many other patients. They confirmed the results.

Pam Reynolds' case proves that our existence is beyond the physical body that we attribute it to.

4everGod:

https://www.nairaland.com/3273199/failure-atheism-account-existence

Baba I just saw this your thread where you slapped some atheists! You have been followed

analice107:
It's well. That means you'll keep getting crazy mentions because the strawman fallacy will always be quoted here. I like your moniker too.

Lol It's aiit, I can handle the mentions. I'll still end up finding the ones directed at me just as I found these ones. + Tnx 4 compliment

Btw, it seems you're also a soldier of the Lord. I've got your back too

4everGod:
They want to frustrate your moniker.

The devil is a liar. Strawman shall not be frustrated. Dont mind those weak and cowardly atheists...when you are with them you are a comrade but once you are not they turn on you like rabid wolves.

Lol, they have this silly dream when sometime in the future, religion will die out and everybody will start thinking like them. Now that our latest brother has converted, the thing dey pain them.

analice107:
Change ur Moniker nah

Chai.. but I like the username

Lmao! An innocent guy decides to become a Christian and suddenly a bunch of butthurt atheists start bullying him. E pain dem You atheists should go and bully the other 84% of the world's population individually, since you have time...rabbish!

Winner01, abeg no vex say I no come early to celebrate the return of our prodigal brother. I miss some of these things cos my mentions are crazy; many people argue and accuse each other of using strawmen arguments everyday; so I don't even know who's actually mentioning me or who's in an argument of his/her own - the thing dey confuse me at times

Anyway I'll just follow you and KingEbukasBlog from now on, so I've always got your backs.

As for sylvalord...
https://blog.abt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/arnold-schwarzenegger-gives-a-thumbs-up.jpg

analice107:
How were u able to type upside Down?

http://www.upsidedowntext.com
(holds ear) Don't use Opera Mini oh.

Lmao! See how hemartins, sunnycliff and amhackdee just slapped the OP with facts.

The thing is, lying itself is generally wrong (Christian or not), especially when it's to protect your own interest. Notice, whenever someone lies, he's hurting someone else either directly or indirectly.

Look at it from the caller's point of view. If you were the one who called and you later found out the employee lied to you, you'd most likely be offended, because it was wrong. For whatever important reason you called, the person who lied to you has either stopped your aim of calling or delayed it.

As for me, I'll make as much effort to tell the caller off without having to lie ("drop a message", "you can't speak with him at the moment" etc). I may end up lying sef if the person persists, but if I lie eventually, at least I know why what I did is wrong.

Why is this in religion section? This is a fashion/lifestyle topic nau

(This long message may have just appeared from nowhere...baba I booked space and slept abeg)

The soul is a metaphysical concept. The idea is that after we die, we still exist in another form which we are conscious of.

For many reasons, I refuse to believe the atheists' POV that it's all materialistic, and we totally cease to exist and lose consciousness when we die.

There was a case of one Eben Alexander III, a Harvard neurosurgeon, who suffered a near death experience: he was in a week-long coma, and brain scans showed that his entire cortex (the parts of the brain that give us consciousness, thought, memory, and understanding) was not functioning. However he later managed to wake up and claimed to have been awake in another realm - "heaven".

Well wherever this man's 'mind' went to during his coma (be it a dream, a vision, any other kind of psychological experience or perhaps reality even), the thing is: normally he requires his brain cortex to be at least active for him to even be aware/conscious of whatever he was experiencing - yet it wasn't even functioning then. This just means our true consciousness is beyond the physical brain that we attribute it to (the brain is a factor, yes, but not totally).

I also read articles that quantum physics may as well have proven that our consciousness (life in fact) continues after death, which obviously this feat cannot be achieved by the physical body. There are a number of quantum physicists who supported this even.

If you venture into the study of metaphysics, you'll see that the concept of a soul is not too hard to grasp.

Basically, we're within a parallel realm that's beyond our normal senses/perception, it involves a lot of phenomena which transcends the physics we know, and we are connected to this realm in one form or another (not through our body, but through our soul).

Too long didn't read: Yes, there is a soul

¡ʇᴉƃǝl sᴉ ʇᴉ ʇnq 'uɐɯ pɐɯ ɐ ʎq pǝdʎʇ sɐʍ ʇᴉ ǝʞᴉl ʞool ʎɐɯ sᴉɥ┴

The answer to these real questions:

winner01:
Is tithing mandatory?

There is absolutely no part of the Bible that says tithing is mandatory/compulsory. It was an old testament concept to support national worship in Israel and help the poor by donating 10%..we are not under any obligation like that.

"Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion , for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Cor 9:7)

The Bible promotes cheerful giving, not necessarily tithing. And abeg how does the pastor expect someone to pay a total of 2 years tithe in a cheerful manner?

If you've been giving tithe, that is good, but let it be because you've chosen to give cheerfully to the church, and not because you take it as a compulsory task; it is not by force.

Will Jesus demand such?

No..not at all

Is that the only church around?

No

It's disturbing how some pastors have managed to pervert the true message of the Bible into something else entirely. If anyone's noticed, people who frown at Christianity are actually frowning at those who interprete Christianity wrongly.

As una snap together like that, I feel like just slapping both of your heads at once! You no get close friends to show this picture, you come show people for Nairaland wey get beta things to think of

raphieMontella:
find awt what it means and relate it to its location

*facepalm*

I didn't imply that Jesus was a Christian if that's what you're thinking. OP mistook being a Jew for being a Judaist, and I was simply correcting him, that is all.

firstking01:
Such christians don't exist...i mean with those attributes you mentioned because, heb 10:25 says, do not forsake the assembling of the brethen...when you forsake or forsook the assembling of the brethren which is the church, you have sinned already, and you knw the implications of sin.

Oga church is not the only "assembling of the brethren". If you're able to assemble with people in your household, with colleagues in your school, in fact now we have social networks sef; a group of Christians on Facebook/WhatsApp etc is a social assembly. When you watch preaching on TV, you are also part of their assembly. If people had these methods in the days of Jesus, they would've utilised them.

raphieMontella:
have u heard of judaism?

Yes..so?

OP Jews are a race/group of people, Christianity is a religion

FAWZ:
Superstitious believe rocking ur mind all d way!!!!!

Is it only supernatural tortoise that has mission?

It's the "love of money" that's the root of all evil abeg, no dey twist Bible anyhow.

winner01:
Strawman na their middle name

Lol guy nau

Baba no be only 10 common excuses girls get oh